Reasons for The Proposed Legislation

Jon Seattle · Post by **Jon Seattle** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:38 pm

DNate is right. Please move non-guild related discussion back to the general board. Thanks.

michelmanen · Post by **michelmanen** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:50 pm

Representative structures of governance as developed in the 16th century and adapted in patchwork manner over the next four hundred years are no longer adequate methods of governance in the 21st century. They are necessary, but not sufficient tools of collective governance and decision-making generally, and more particularly in the context of at most 76 citizens. Giving virtually unlimited legislative power to 5 or 7 people (save for 2 elections per year) is profoundly undemocratic and, as we can see in the CDS (where no other branch of government is fully functioning and capable of balancing the powers of the RA), conducive to the formation of an illegitimate, unaccountable, closed oligarchy. That is what CARE is fighting against, and why it sets more confidence and trust in a professional and accountable Guild than in the RA as currently structured, managed and run.

Beathan · Post by **Beathan** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:55 pm

[quote="michelmanen":3pdm55zm]There was nothing collective about it. The other parties wanted to keep the legislative process closed, citizenship restrictive and tied strictly to land ownership, effective control of the CDS in the hands of the same people who think it is their God-given right to decide everything for this community and shut out all other citizens except once every six months, at voting time. [/quote:3pdm55zm]

Michel --

This is simply not true, and you know it. I myself proposed an expansion of the franchise to allow citizenship through labor as well as land ownership -- and first proposed that before CARE was even a party. The CSDF legislation would have also expanded, not restricted, the franchise on this model.

The CDS is a [i:3pdm55zm]representative[/i:3pdm55zm] democracy -- not a direct democracy. We currently have no active institutions (such as initiative or referenda processes) allowing for direct legislation. However, I and my Party and Claude and the DPU have specifically proposed such mechanisms. The CSDF has expressed support for them. Only CARE has not joined in these efforts. I hope that CARE's actions will match more closely to its rhetoric -- including specific support for proposals broadening franchise (even when not sponsored by Michel Manen) or proposals providing for direct democracy (even when not sponsored by Michel Manen) when someone else represents CARE in the RA. However, until now, CARE has been opposed to everything not sponsored by Michel Manen -- no matter how much the proposal is a good idea and no matter how much it aligns with CARE's rhetoric -- abandoning that opposition only when the work of others pays off and the proposal is passed, at which time CARE reveals that the proposal was a CARE proposal all along and we should all forget who actually sponsored and worked for it.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain ...

Beathan

Fernando Book · Post by **Fernando Book** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:20 pm

"You know we forget sometimes, in all the talk about democracy, it's a Republic. People don't make the decisions, they choose the people who make the decisions. Could they do a better job choosing? Yeah. But when you consider the alternatives. . . . You want to come up for a cigar," the President asks Toby. ". . . I'll beat your ass at chess."
"You baiting me, Mr. President?"
"Yes."
"Okay," Toby says chuckling.

From The West Wing, episode #206

Bromo Ivory · Post by **Bromo Ivory** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:53 pm

No one is really listening to one another.

Yes, CDS is a republic. No, it is not a direct "pure democracy."

CARE says that it should be closer to the "pure" democracy than it currently is, and feels the CDS would be stronger for it.

The other parties are more skeptical that that would be a good direction - or that they are in philosophical alignment.

Enough about this, then?

Patroklus Murakami · Post by **Patroklus Murakami** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:32 am

This thread has wandered off topic. If you want to discuss the nature of representative v. direct democracy, citizenship, the history of decision-making in the CDS, then do it in the appropriate forums.

For this discussion though, I think it may help if we draw a distinction between the CDS nation-state, the institutions of that state and the CDS community and also between property (or use) rights and Intellectual property (IP) rights.

I don't have time to post extensively on this (rushing to work) but here is what is critical:

The land, buildings and layout etc. of public buildings and space clearly belong to the CDS nation-state which comprises the individuals who choose to be citizens and the institutions of state. I don't think it makes sense to say that property (as in buildings or IP) belongs to the RA as that is only one institution of state. It may be better (and more in keeping with our system of checks and balances to consider that the institutions of our nation-state (the RA, SC and Executive) own the land, buildings etc on behalf of the CDS community (i.e. our citizenry).

Also, we can conceive of a situation where the CDS (however defined) owns the property but not the IP! In other words, the CDS owns the buildings, layout etc but the original creator owns the rights to the further use of the textures etc that form the IP. We would need to make sure that the CDS' rights were cast iron but that could be made to work provided the agreements are clear. In the real world I own my jeans but I don't own the IP to the design of them (that's the kind of distinction I"m trying to make).

Ths safest option, however, is for the CDS to own the property and the IP rights. (Just thought I'd add that to make myself clear!)

Beathan · Post by **Beathan** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:29 am

Pat --

Exactly right -- and thanks for putting the point so succintly.

Beathan

Salzie Sachertorte · Post by **Salzie Sachertorte** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:11 am

[quote="Fernando Book":353fd48k]"You know we forget sometimes, in all the talk about democracy, it's a Republic. People don't make the decisions, they choose the people who make the decisions. Could they do a better job choosing? Yeah. But when you consider the alternatives. . . . You want to come up for a cigar," the President asks Toby. ". . . I'll beat your ass at chess."
"You baiting me, Mr. President?"
"Yes."
"Okay," Toby says chuckling.

From The West Wing, episode #206[/quote:353fd48k]

OMG! A fellow Wing-Nut!