Guild Meeting 22nd July 2007 - Log

[Moon Adamant]

[10:01] You: hello all
[10:01] Dnate Mars wonders why we just don't start meetings until 15 after.....
[10:01] Jon Seattle hugs Moon
[10:01] Moon Adamant hugs Jon
[10:01] Sudane Erato: does that assist locomotovation?
[10:01] Dnate Mars: hello Michel
[10:02] Dnate Mars: hiya moon
[10:02] Tanoujin Milestone: Michel
[10:02] Michel Manen: hi tan nicee to see you here
[10:02] Jon Seattle: Dante, if w sheduled them then they would start at half past
[10:02] Sudane Erato: hi all
[10:02] Michel Manen: di danate.. hello sudane
[10:02] You: hi hi everyone
[10:02] Jon Seattle: Hello Michel Manen
[10:02] Dnate Mars: I guess... we just tell everyone they start at 1:00
[10:03] Michel Manen: hello Jon
[10:03] Jon Seattle: brb
[10:04] Brian Livingston sighs
[10:04] You: love your headgear, Brian
[10:04] Sudane Erato:
[10:04] Brian Livingston: Hehe, thanls Bromo gave it to me yesterday
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: yes, it's fabulous, isnn't it?
[10:05] Brian Livingston: We had a bunch of us in the platz wearing them after the election results came out :p
[10:05] Sudane Erato: hehe
[10:06] Sudane Erato: are we expecting anyone else specifically?
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami's head is quite sore today
[10:06] Brian Livingston: lol
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: yes, is there anyone in particular who's expected to come?
[10:07] Jon Seattle: back
[10:07] Brian Livingston: I was having a debate with my roommate over the glory of hangovers, if they are a reminder of how moronic you were or rather that you hada good time the night/day/week before :p
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: lol!
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: possibly both
[10:07] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Hi guys
[10:07] Brian Livingston: See, I leaned towards the secodn option
[10:07] Brian Livingston: Hey Top!
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: hi top good to see u
[10:07] Jon Seattle: Hi Top
[10:07] Tanoujin Milestone: Top
[10:08] TOPGenosse Lundquist:
[10:08] You: hey Top
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: there's always ibuprofen
[10:08] You: pineapple juice in large quantities
[10:08] You: or passionfruit
[10:09] Brian Livingston: Meh, never does anythign with hangover ehadaches for me. Any other headache yes, but water and bad sunday morning tv generally is the cure
[10:09] Dnate Mars: more beer!
[10:09] Brian Livingston: Or moore beer
[10:09] Brian Livingston: err moor beer
[10:09] Brian Livingston: ACK
[10:09] Sudane Erato: haha
[10:09] Brian Livingston: More*
[10:09] Sudane Erato: Moore's beer
[10:09] Dnate Mars: well, maybe no more for you Brian
[10:09] Sudane Erato: yes
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: dnate, you're a man after my won heart. i like your style
[10:09] Brian Livingston: Oh geesh, I think I just had a brain anureism or something there...
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: *own
[10:10] Brian Livingston: Although... i think I just createda micro-brew label... Moore's Beer
[10:10] Sudane Erato: yep )
[10:10] Dnate Mars: That is how I got rid of my this morning, a nice bloody mary
[10:10] Brian Livingston: Not a huge Tomato Juice fan
[10:11] You: tomato juice is evil, i agree
[10:11] Brian Livingston: I was working on an idea for some kind of jagger slushie the other day in my head
[10:11] Dnate Mars: Ok, let's get this show on the road
[10:11] You: i am quite partial to vodka with passionfruit myself
[10:11] Brian Livingston: Okee
[10:11] Jon Seattle: Tomato juice is evil!?
[10:11] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Doesn't anything that's not eucalyptus leaves kill Koala's?
[10:11] Arria Perreault: Hi everybody
[10:11] Dnate Mars: does anyone have a recorded to record this meeting?
[10:11] Sudane Erato: haha
[10:11] Sudane Erato: hi Arria
[10:11] You: maybe a vodka-eucalyptus would work
[10:12] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Hi Arria!
[10:12] Brian Livingston: Nah, we're party animals. Roasted Chimp is pretty tasty
[10:12] You: hi Arria, lovely dress
[10:12] Sudane Erato: hehe
[10:12] Jon Seattle: Hi Arria
[10:12] Brian Livingston: Speaking of, where's flyingroc....
[10:12] Arria Perreault: Thank you Moon
[10:12] Sudane Erato: poor FR
[10:12] Brian Livingston: hehe
[10:12] Sudane Erato: he's doing his thesis
[10:12] Dnate Mars: anyone?
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: hi arria
[10:12] Sudane Erato: no chance of attending
[10:12] Arria Perreault: Hi Patroklus
[10:12] Brian Livingston: Ah yes, I was talking to him last night. crunch time
[10:12] Michel Manen: hi arria
[10:12] Sudane Erato: yeah
[10:12] Jon Seattle: (trying to stop typing but SL is stuck)
[10:13] Dnate Mars: uh... ok, I guess I will just copy my chat log if no one can record it for me
[10:13] Jon Seattle: I was taling shop with FR last night. High comp sci
[10:14] Dnate Mars: so, first, I need everyone to OK the fact that I will post the chat log
[10:14] Diderot Mirabeau: hi everybody mind if I take a seat?
[10:14] TOPGenosse Lundquist: sure
[10:14] Jon Seattle: Yes, I agree.
[10:14] Michel Manen: aye
[10:14] You: sure
[10:14] Brian Livingston: Okee dokee
[10:14] Arria Perreault: Hi Diderot
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: i'm happy to be recorded
[10:14] You: hey hey Didders!
[10:14] Sudane Erato: fine with me
[10:14] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Hey Diderot you're still alive!!
[10:14] Jon Seattle: Hi Diderot
[10:14] Sudane Erato: hi Diderot!
[10:14] Michel Manen: hello Diderot
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: hi diderot, lovely to see you
[10:15] Diderot Mirabeau: yeah still breathing .. sorry don't let me interrupt you ... congratulations to everyone on the elections!
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: ty
[10:15] Jon Seattle: Thanks!
[10:15] Dnate Mars: Arria, Tanorjin, and Diderot, do you agree?
[10:15] Tanoujin Milestone: sure
[10:16] Dnate Mars: to be recorded that is
[10:16] Dnate Mars: ok... fine....
[10:16] Arria Perreault: ok
[10:17] Dnate Mars: Well, let's move on to the first order of business, Do we want to continue to discuss the IP rights contract or do we table it until Rose returns?
[10:18] Jon Seattle: Will it hold up work on our projects if we table it? That is my main concern.
[10:18] Sudane Erato: well, we never had it for previous projects
[10:18] You: has the new sim been approved by the RA yeat, and its budget?
[10:18] Dnate Mars: I would think that we want it in place before we start the next sim
[10:18] You: sorry for asking, btw
[10:18] Jon Seattle: Moon, yes.
[10:19] Michel Manen: i think the main issue is for the builders to actually agree what they are looking for in this IP contract... the lawyers job is to take simple and direct instructions from you and translate it in legal form
[10:19] Patroklus Murakami: hmm sudane, that has got us into trouble as well. it would be good to be clear before work begins on the 3rd sim
[10:19] Sudane Erato: fair enough...
[10:19] Dnate Mars: I know we haven't had it in the past, but it could have hurt us badly too in the past. If we were about to open CN and the builders decided they wanted to pull the project, we would be in trouble
[10:20] Sudane Erato: well, a lot of "assumptions" have underlaid our actions in the [past
[10:20] Sudane Erato: not everything can be defined before we can act
[10:20] Michel Manen: so if you all actualy can ahgree what the main idea of this contract is and what you want in and what not, then once rose is back, and depending on whether or not she feels she can help, it can be taken on from there
[10:20] Dnate Mars: but we want to make sure we have the best contract that we can in SL
[10:21] Sudane Erato: it should be pointed out that Jmie, too, contributed significant portions of the text
[10:21] Jon Seattle: I do want to say I think Rose did an exclent job on drafting the agreement. My one concern is the ownership of the liciense rights.
[10:21] Sudane Erato: Jamie
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: i agree that we don't need perfection sudane, but this has been an issue in the past and we have the opportunity to tackle it now, so we should take it
[10:21] Jon Seattle: Sudane, yes, quite true
[10:21] Sudane Erato: fair enough Pat
[10:22] Arria Perreault: well i am not specialist in law science, but i would like that we make a difference objects like houses or any architecture piece and the things that can be reused, like texture
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: and we should be grateful to rose and the other who worked on the draft contract for putting those principles in place
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: *others
[10:22] Michel Manen: i must say i have not been part of these discussions and i know little about it.. but my understanding is that it was designed primarily to ensure that builders who worked on CDS sims up to now whould sign it in order to ensire CDS will be able to control all architectural elements now part of our sims
[10:22] Arria Perreault: if we make a building for a sim, this building should belong to the CDS
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: hmm, that's not how i read it michel
[10:22] Michel Manen: moon and sudane were here and know much better than me what went on
[10:22] You: in all cases, i think that we are bound to wait for Rose's return to make sure the progress on sim planning fits her ideas as expressed on her plan
[10:23] Arria Perreault: but what about the textures. Can we reused them for other works
[10:23] Arria Perreault: ?
[10:23] You: oh Arria, i think there's no question about that, as long as they are yours - either made or bought
[10:23] Michel Manen: well pat as i said i was not here and wouldnt know exactly, moon and sudane are much better informed than i am
[10:23] Jon Seattle: I think we can lay out the principle if people want to do that.
[10:24] You: you see, this IP form is just a license that you, the maker, grant for the use of your work. Your work is always and ever yours
[10:24] Dnate Mars: we just get to use it
[10:25] Jon Seattle: yes, indeed
[10:25] Arria Perreault: why don't take inspiration in Creative Commons?
[10:25] You: Michel can correct me if i am wrong
[10:25] Michel Manen: not at all
[10:25] Michel Manen: you are preciselyy correcy
[10:25] Brian Livingston: That's the confusion I had initially, that I was transcferring my IP rights to the Guild or CDS, not simply a license to those rights
[10:25] Michel Manen: and i still cant spell
[10:25] Brian Livingston: But yea, after a thoroguh re-read of the proposed license, that objection is lifted
[10:26] You: no, ust a license
[10:26] You: just*
[10:26] Michel Manen: well thats what the license is designed to clear up, right moon?
[10:26] Jon Seattle: Yes, it is just a licience to use the design in limited circomstances
[10:26] Dnate Mars: ok, so let's have a vote, all in favor of getting the main points down today say Aye, all that want to wait until Rose returns, Nay.
[10:26] Michel Manen: yes i agree
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: yes, its a 'use right' like the right to wear a pair of jeans u bought, u don't get to make copies of them as well
[10:26] You: yes, the limited circunstances being teh CDS sims, and promo events outside teh CDS sims. one good example is anzere
[10:26] Brian Livingston: well, under hte license proposed, the CDS can make copies i believe
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, i should have used a better analogy
[10:27] Brian Livingston: Under limited circumstances albeit
[10:27] Michel Manen: just replacement copies no?
[10:27] You: yes, but only in those circunstances
[10:27] Michel Manen: i mean not to compete directly with the creator by salling such copies
[10:27] Brian Livingston: The New Guild shall not copy, sell or distribute the Property other than as may be necessary or practical for use in the Sims, or such other use in the Second Life Grid, for historical, marketing or informative services related to the Sims, (such as Second Life Birthday Celebrations) without prior approval of Builder.
[10:28] You: ah, Michel, i think this would only apply to public spaces too
[10:28] Brian Livingston: Under that claus, they can use anythign built as much as often as long as it can be justified as being for CDS use
[10:28] Brian Livingston: Or so it seems...
[10:28] Jon Seattle: Dnate, I suppose we are discussing it
[10:28] Dnate Mars: I guess so
[10:29] Dnate Mars: continue, please
[10:29] Brian Livingston: That beign said, I don't mind as long as it is for CDS use, but the way it reads, it is not a one-tiem use license with a provision for replacement copies
[10:29] Patroklus Murakami: is this intended to be a 'one size fits all' contract? or is it possible to adapt the terms so that , for example, you specify one copy of a building like the Schloss and multiple copies of pre-fab houses?
[10:29] Jon Seattle: My issue is this. The Guild could potentially withdraw its use.
[10:30] Brian Livingston nods
[10:30] Jon Seattle: Or decide to set conditions on the CDS for use of a particular object.
[10:30] Brian Livingston: Which would be a much bigger scale earthquake than what happened last time
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: yes, i'm puzzled by the proposal that rights would reside with the Guild. that doesn't seem right
[10:30] Michel Manen: you see that hapening moon? sudane?
[10:30] You: hmmm
[10:30] You: what i think
[10:31] You: is that there are actually 3 different situations as regards content
[10:31] You: old content, which is 100% built public content atm
[10:31] You: guild sponsored future content
[10:31] You: cds sponsored future content
[10:32] You: and i think the three situations will possibly demand different approaches
[10:32] Jon Seattle: Yes, I am refering only to public content
[10:32] You: plus maybe these cases which have been mentioned here
[10:32] You: and me
[10:32] Jon Seattle: Only CDS sponsored or existing infrastructure
[10:33] Dnate Mars: Hey, guys, I hate to do this, but I really need to go. I am not feeling well at all, Moon, could you take over?
[10:33] Michel Manen: sorry Danate.. plz take care of yourself
[10:33] You: aww Dnate
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: oh, sorry to hear that dnate
[10:33] You: sure
[10:33] Dnate Mars: thanks, sorry again....
[10:33] Jon Seattle: Sorry to hear that Dnate, hope you feel better
[10:33] You: pineapple juice, specially with bubblies!
[10:34] Patroklus Murakami: yes, take care of yourself. hope u feel better soon
[10:34] Brian Livingston: Eep, Take care of yourself Dnate
[10:34] Diderot Mirabeau: get well soon Dnate ..
[10:34] TOPGenosse Lundquist: take care Dnate
[10:34] Diderot Mirabeau: I thought that blue looked a bit pale
[10:34] You: yes, get well soon!
[10:34] Sudane Erato:
[10:34] Dnate Mars: Thanks
[10:34] Arria Perreault: take care, Dnate
[10:34] You: ok hmmm
[10:35] You: bear with me a second while i pull up the agenda
[10:35] Jon Seattle thinks that hat is so cool on Brian
[10:36] Brian Livingston: hehe
[10:36] Diderot Mirabeau: I thought it was a steering wheel
[10:36] TOPGenosse Lundquist: I wonder if it keeps him fresh or makes him fly
[10:36] Brian Livingston: This furg ets hot during the summer, so you get your cooling where you acn :p
[10:36] Tanoujin Milestone: lol
[10:36] You: ok, have the agenda
[10:36] Brian Livingston: fur gets*
[10:36] You: and lol
[10:36] You: so we are in point 1
[10:37] You: 1. Ultimate ownership and/or trust argument for Guild work for sim design and installation on public land.
[10:37] Jon Seattle: yes
[10:37] You: let's resujme the discussion
[10:39] You: would everyone like to have one or two minutes to express one's pov?
[10:39] Jon Seattle: Actually I think I said what I wanted to in those two lines.
[10:40] Moon Adamant listens to Michel
[10:40] Michel Manen: there are two issues: what would the desigers feel happy with? what is best for CDS? can we make these one and the same?
[10:41] Michel Manen: so whatevever can do that would be fine with the legal drafters i think
[10:42] Michel Manen: from a personal point of view, I thought the guild as a professional and independent organisation chartered by the RA would be the perfect repository.. bu it seems that casuses problems to sme
[10:42] Michel Manen: so really its up to you all to decide eaht you really want
[10:42] Michel Manen: smiles
[10:43] Jon Seattle: Ah, I pasted the two lines together: My issue is this. The Guild could potentially withdraw its use. Or decide to set conditions on the CDS for use of a particular object. I would like to hear from other designers though.
[10:43] You: hmmm, let's make that discussion after this
[10:43] Jon Seattle: hm?
[10:44] Brian Livingston: What happened tio the clause obligating the Build to provide the IP licenses to the RA upon demand of the Chancellor?
[10:44] Brian Livingston: I noticed that it isn't in this current draft
[10:44] Jon Seattle: That was my attempt at a compromise -- the trust idea. It was not in the original draft agreement.
[10:44] Brian Livingston: ah
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: may i say a few words?
[10:45] You: of course
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: i think that there are some problems with the Guild holding the licence rights for public builds in the CDS
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: i understand that some might view the RA as a bit volatile, and therefore prefer a 'calmer' organisation like the Guild
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: but if the CDS purchases a sim and then pays (or has donated) the buildings that go in it. then the CDS has to have ownership of the finished article
[10:47] Michel Manen: who is the CDS - legally?
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: otherwise we would be using public money to put CDS property eseentially in private hands
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: aah, michel, that is a very good question
[10:48] You: indeed
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: and one we have not been entirely clear about
[10:48] Michel Manen: i think a lot of problems stem from there
[10:48] You: perhaps that is an element missing to this discussion?
[10:48] Sudane Erato: in't the CDS the people... who have chosen representatives to speak for them?
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: what is the CDS? is is the RA, the people, some abstract concept?
[10:48] Arria Perreault: I think that CDS is a n entity, like every state, with different institutions
[10:48] You: and btw Pat, when i meant above 'guild-sponsored' or 'CDS-sponsored' that was what i was adressing too
[10:49] Jon Seattle agrees with Sudane on that
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: but we do have institutions of state that could be entrusted with maintenance of public property
[10:49] Arria Perreault: RA would manage these rights in the name of the CDS
[10:49] Michel Manen: i agree with arria
[10:49] TOPGenosse Lundquist: If the Agreement is modified ("CDS"), then it can be specified what "CDS" is.
[10:49] Michel Manen: and the RA and guild are uch institutions
[10:49] You: mind also one technical point here
[10:49] Michel Manen: there is no legal entitly called "CDS"
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: well michel, the Guild is specifcally *not* a governmental organisation
[10:50] Arria Perreault: Guild is not an entity of elected persons
[10:50] You: which was, i think, what detracted the licensing of older conetent so far
[10:50] Jon Seattle: Michel, "uch" I didn't understand.
[10:50] Michel Manen: no i want to hear what others have to say
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: but, apart from teh abstract issue, there's a practical one - who holds it? could just as easily be rudeen as anyone, surely?
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: that's all I wanted to say
[10:51] Sudane Erato: it seems to me that the RA *could* designate the Guild to hold the IP licenses
[10:51] Sudane Erato: which would be the RA implementing its autority
[10:51] Michel Manen: actually from what i understand its exactly what *had* been decided sudane
[10:51] You: the RA is sovereign and can establish a proxy onto they find best, i think
[10:51] Sudane Erato: well, i think thats not clear
[10:52] Jon Seattle: Sudane, yes, if the RA set the conditions I would have less of an issue.
[10:52] Michel Manen: so let the RA do so.
[10:52] You: hmmm, mind also that we are discussing two things here
[10:52] Sudane Erato: that would be a charter revision, no?
[10:52] Michel Manen: and include it in the Guild Charter
[10:52] Michel Manen: yes sudane
[10:52] You: one is the ownership of the license, and the other one is the process of licensing
[10:52] You: i think we may all safely agree that the Guild can undertsake that process?
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: well, the RA *could* do that, but what guarantees are you offering?
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami dons 'RA hat'
[10:53] Jon Seattle: But I suspect the RA would want to set limits on what the Guild could do in that case -- really a variation on the "trust" proposel.
[10:53] You: if so requested by the RA, clearly and eventually?
[10:53] Michel Manen: well lol we have here most of the rA and guild leaders. smiles
[10:53] Michel Manen: so im sure wew can all wear our different hats
[10:54] Michel Manen: and work thsat out ith ourselves
[10:54] You: well, i am very much looking forward to hear what the hatless think too
[10:54] Michel Manen: grins
[10:54] Jon Seattle: My one question about that though, is, is it adding a useful compliation? Would it not be easier to have the CDS have the liciense and designate the Guild to manage certain things.
[10:55] You: i would also like to remark that the Guild's actions is always in CDS-approved projects
[10:55] You: are*
[10:56] You: at least in projects for the public spaces of the CDS
[10:56] Michel Manen: well: The RA chartered the guild as an independent organisation, btu retains ultimate control and supervision; it could well decide, as the legislative body of the CDS, that it is in the best interest of the DS for the Guildto hold the rights subject to certain conditions, and stipulate what would happen to then should the guild be disbanded; and the guild then would proceed in accrodance with these directions.
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: why would the RA agree to that?
[10:56] Jon Seattle: Michel, why is that preferable though?
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: what is the benefit to having these rights held by the Guild?
[10:58] Michel Manen: its not a question of "agreeinng" pat... its a question of what the RA decides is in the best interests of the CDS.. andd should it decide that the Guild is best suited to do so it could legislate accordingly.. but as Arria said, the RA is *not* CDS.. CDS is an entire series of insitutions,, and the reason for having the Guild control these rights is to ensure than no ONE institution if the CDS controls them to the exclusion of hte others
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: well, it seems like a bizarre way of solving teh problem. aren't you worried that it sets up a 'dual power' situation with an essentially private organisation having control over CDS property? sounds like a recipe for conflict to me
[11:00] You: may i offer a thought at this point?
[11:00] Michel Manen: but my opinion is neither here nor there.. the questions are: 1) what are the builders happy with? what is in thte best interets of CDS?
[11:01] Patroklus Murakami: i realise that a few of us are monopolising the discussion. i would like to hear other's views but i won't shut up unless others intervene
[11:01] Sudane Erato:
[11:01] Jon Seattle: I will say, (pretty obvious ) that I am more comfortable assigning the licience to the CDS
[11:01] Michel Manen: who is CDS jon?
[11:01] You: i think from analysis
[11:01] Jon Seattle: Sudane defined it quite well I think.
[11:02] You: that possibly we aren't looking at any unified solution here
[11:02] You: don't you forget
[11:02] Arria Perreault: If I work on a public building, the only thing I would like to be sure is that building belong to the CDS as entity
[11:02] You: that we have some content which is 3 years old, or close to it
[11:02] You: we have content made by people who are no longer in SL
[11:02] Arria Perreault: CDS has laws, institutions and procedures and should decide how to deal with this property
[11:03] Jon Seattle: Well, that is a complication we have to deal with in either case Moon
[11:03] Arria Perreault: are this new draft retroactif?
[11:03] Brian Livingston: How could they be if the builder is no longer in teh CDS though?
[11:03] Brian Livingston: or does not respond?
[11:03] You: and mainly, that content was dealt between the CDS and the creators - who may not be willing to grant a license to an entity which is unknown to them
[11:03] Jon Seattle: Arria, it could only be applied if designers agreed to sign it.
[11:03] You: but this to say
[11:03] You: that we are trying to reach an unified solution
[11:04] You: but perhaps the solutions will have to be found case to case
[11:04] Arria Perreault: I don't know if we can find a solution for old cases
[11:04] Arria Perreault: if we make a new bill, we have to inform these people
[11:05] You: the very difficult cases, i suppose, can fall under a clause of exception... like considering them something like a UNESCO heritage
[11:05] Arria Perreault: to know if they agree
[11:06] Jon Seattle: I think that unless we want to start a program to go back and replace everything (huge, huge job) we will do out best and leave the rest as it is.
[11:06] You: we are nearing one hour of discussion on this btw
[11:06] TOPGenosse Lundquist: UNESCO > lol
[11:06] You: and i will change the agenda point at 19.15
[11:06] Michel Manen: i mean - and this is an aside - i am realy surprised that we still function within rigid dichotomies like public / private / government / governed / CDS / Non CDS.. the whole purpose of SL is to be creative and develop more flexible and appropriate notions and structures of governance than when we are usede to irl... again from a personal point of view ithought the Guild was exactly such an organisation . part of our structure of governance by virtue of its charter, subject to the democratic control of the RA, yet managed and directed by competent and responsible professionals who would act i nthe best interests of CDS as awhole and not be subject to any ones prssures at any one time.... this is why i supported both its creation and endorsed the idea of vesting the rights in it...
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: we're gonn be here another 8 hours!!!!!!????
[11:07] You: hmmm, i may remark that some of teh old content is CN content, of which almost builders are present here today
[11:07] Brian Livingston: lol
[11:07] You: almost all*
[11:08] Jon Seattle: Lets vote on a very short resolution: That we thing the IP licience rights for public infrastructure should be in the hands of the CDS. We will meet with the RA, Chancelor, and additional guild members to resolve any issues.
[11:09] Jon Seattle: *think
[11:09] Michel Manen: be that as it may.. that is just my personal point of view... i return to my main idea: if the builders can determine what they are happy with, and the RA what is in the best interests of CDS, and we can make this one and the same, that would be more than fine with me
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: well, interesting though a philosophical discussion on the merits and demerits of public-private partnerships might be... it won't get teh washing up done
[11:09] Michel Manen: well im not yet clear who the CDS is.. sorry
[11:09] Michel Manen: from a legal point of view
[11:10] You: could we ask for advice on that particular issue?
[11:10] Sudane Erato: i might suggest that almost everyone in the CDS is understanding of who the CDS is
[11:10] You: what do you say?
[11:10] Michel Manen: sure but we cant decide to vest IP rights in an entitly which we cantdefine
[11:11] Sudane Erato: in that they just elected their representatives to speak for them
[11:11] Brian Livingston: I would assume in this case the IP rights would be held for teh CDS by Rudeen, who seems to be the asset av for the CDS
[11:11] Jon Seattle: I think we ought not to define the CDS in this meeting. All of us joined something called the CDS when we moved here.
[11:11] Arria Perreault: CDS is like every state in RL
[11:11] You: yes, we are not mandated to define what the CDS is lol
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: i understand your confusion michel, it *isn't* crystal clear because we've never declared the CDS a legal person. but to then say that teh Guild, because it exist, is the default option seems like a weak argument to me. let's look at the practicality. who gets teh goods? rudeen or guilda? doesn't that make teh choice clear?
[11:11] You: that is a legal definition that the RA or the SC - or both - must create
[11:12] Michel Manen: well lets ask sudane.. woud rudeen get the goods? in other words is rudeen CDS?
[11:12] Sudane Erato: Rudeen is NOT the CDS
[11:13] Jon Seattle: I am not proposing that we resolve that at this meeting. Just the simple statement of prinicple.
[11:13] Sudane Erato: the people of the state are the CDS...
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: no, not 'is rudeen CDS' but 'can Rudeen hold property on behalf of the cDS'
[11:13] Sudane Erato: in my opinion
[11:13] You: in the current legislation for Rudeen, she isn't madated to accept that content
[11:13] You: mandated*
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: she does already, she owns the sims!
[11:13] Brian Livingston: Doesn't that make her teh custodian for the CDS entity?
[11:13] Sudane Erato: she "owns" the sims in the eyes of LL
[11:13] Sudane Erato: not in the eyes of the citizens
[11:13] Sudane Erato: the citizens own the sims
[11:14] Michel Manen: politically youare of course right sudane.. butt legally there is no such thing as the people of CDS . that is the problem
[11:14] Patroklus Murakami: she owns them 'on behalf of' the citizens and the CDS
[11:14] Sudane Erato: but Michel... I think you said before that the legal definitions must descend from the will and perception of the people
[11:15] Michel Manen: of course
[11:15] You: ok everyone
[11:15] You: 11.15
[11:15] Michel Manen: its the RAs decision asa long as not vetoed by the C or chancellor
[11:15] Patroklus Murakami: so michel, yoiur opposition would disappear if the CDS were to declare itself as a 'natural and legal person' under international law?
[11:15] You: we will continue the discussion on this point later on, if you do not mind
[11:15] Jon Seattle: Madam Chair, I sugested a resolution?
[11:16] TOPGenosse Lundquist: To me Rudeen owning the object is convincing .. Some CDS gov. bodies should have the final say, NG should have practical say and execute the work.
[11:16] You: hmmm please recall that to me?
[11:16] Michel Manen: pat we need a legal entity recognised not just by us but by LL and irl to vest the rights in.. its that simple
[11:16] Jon Seattle: scrolls back.. one sec
[11:16] Jon Seattle: [11:08] You: Lets vote on a very short resolution: That we thing the IP licience rights for public infrastructure should be in the hands of the CDS. We will meet with the RA, Chancelor, and additional guild members to resolve any issues.
[11:17] Michel Manen: it could be guilda or rudeen or whoever.. as long as both the RA and builders feel happy with it
[11:17] Jon Seattle: *think
[11:17] You: hmmm
[11:17] Arria Perreault: In that case, we have to create a RL organization to hold rights and properties for CDS. This would be paradoxal...
[11:18] Sudane Erato:
[11:18] Michel Manen: there is no "CDS" legal entity right now.. thats what the problem is...
[11:18] Arria Perreault: for a virtual democracy
[11:18] Sudane Erato: hehe
[11:18] Sudane Erato: yes
[11:18] Sudane Erato: quite paradoxical
[11:19] Patroklus Murakami: michel, i think you're getting hung up on a technicality. everybody knows what 'the CDS' is and who they are selling/donating their work to when they do
[11:19] Sudane Erato: I move we table the issue
[11:19] You: sorry everyone, we really must table this point
[11:20] Michel Manen: who? who is CDS legally? do you know moon? do you sudane?
[11:20] Jon Seattle: Sudane, the resolution of the CDS definition issue?
[11:20] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Creating a RL legal entity for NG objects/structures, is not any more urgent than craeting a RL legal entity for the sims as property,for now we can do without .. until something goes wrong and we'll be in double trouble
[11:20] Sudane Erato: yes
[11:20] Sudane Erato: the topic(s) under discussion
[11:20] Tanoujin Milestone: Top
[11:20] Jon Seattle: I second Sudane's resolution to table
[11:21] Jon Seattle: Moon, pleae call for the vote?
[11:21] TOPGenosse Lundquist: In other words: If we can have Rudeen for the sims, we can have Rudeen or a 3rd sister for the NG objects
[11:21] Michel Manen: if Moon's rights as a builder are violated, who does she sue? who is hte legal entity he sues?
[11:21] You: yes, everyone, shall we table the issue now?
[11:21] Michel Manen: sure
[11:21] Sudane Erato: god.... another sister!!??
[11:21] Brian Livingston: aye
[11:21] Brian Livingston: Tudeen?
[11:21] You: large family
[11:22] Sudane Erato:
[11:22] Jon Seattle: Aye
[11:22] You: aye
[11:22] Sudane Erato: i agree
[11:22] Arria Perreault: Aye
[11:22] Patroklus Murakami: not sure if i get to vote? if so, i support the motion to table
[11:22] Michel Manen: well i think we have to really hink about this from a legal point of view which is also politically acceptable to the RA and technically to the Guild.
[11:22] Jon Seattle: Every citizen may vote according to our charter
[11:23] Jon Seattle: Pat, you get to vote if you wish
[11:23] Patroklus Murakami: ty jon, i support motion to table
[11:23] You: ok tabled
[11:24] Michel Manen: yey
[11:24] You: we will carry on on next meeting, thanks everyone for teh very useful povs
[11:24] You: second point hmmm
[11:24] You: 2. The right of Guild members to free speech on matters of Guild policy. Do we want to have these?
[11:24] Michel Manen: lol
[11:24] Jon Seattle: I move to table
[11:24] Sudane Erato: hehe
[11:24] Michel Manen: aye
[11:24] You: any discussion on this?
[11:25] Michel Manen: i second
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: hmm. best tabled i think. i vote aye
[11:25] Jon Seattle: We will duscss this when Rose returns I suspect. But lets leave it for now.
[11:25] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:25] Brian Livingston: aye
[11:25] Sudane Erato: i agree
[11:25] You: aye
[11:25] TOPGenosse Lundquist: yo
[11:26] You: yo?
[11:26] Jon Seattle: lol
[11:26] TOPGenosse Lundquist: = aye
[11:26] Brian Livingston: lol
[11:26] Michel Manen: phew.. whipes forehead
[11:26] Sudane Erato: it means "hey you" in New Yorkese
[11:26] You: ok, third point hmmm
[11:26] TOPGenosse Lundquist:
[11:26] You: 3. Do we want to go forward with the 3rd sim design or postpone it until other issues are worked out?
[11:27] Sudane Erato: I think we should go forward
[11:27] TOPGenosse Lundquist: agree
[11:27] Brian Livingston: Indeed.
[11:27] Michel Manen: personally i think thee basic planningshould go ahead yes.. we're not yet at the stage when IP issues will come into play
[11:27] Brian Livingston: If nothign else we can start planning and raising funds, jsut so long as teh IP agreement is in place before construction starts I'd assume
[11:28] Michel Manen: i agree with Brian
[11:28] Brian Livingston: oh, hehe
[11:28] You: yes, there's a bit of work that can be done in the next weeks
[11:28] Jon Seattle: Michel, this is not quite true.. I am working on the RAW file for the deatiled design of the landscape and hope to gether a group to start working on some house models.
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: incidentally i just did a quick search of the constitution and laws. there is no defintion of the CDS in the constitution but, the Naming Procedures Act NL 4-27 says "The city shall hold two simultaneous competitions, one to name the current sim, and a second to name the entity of which it and additional sims will be a part" so the CDS is 'the entity of which Neufreistadt and addtional sims is part'. not terribly helpful but all we have, for now
[11:29] You: and of course Rose needs to come back and say if we are being truthful to her ideas about the sim
[11:29] You: ah Pat, the name of teh sim thingy had already occured to me
[11:29] Jon Seattle: That would be nice, but I don't see that we have to do that in a general way. We can submi specific plans and designs
[11:29] Michel Manen: as long as u develp them you own the raw files and house models.. its just at transfere stage we need to have the license in place
[11:30] Arria Perreault: can we still make propositions about the cntent?
[11:30] Arria Perreault: like type of houses?
[11:30] Jon Seattle: yes, I think so
[11:31] You: we need to know plot sizes, mind - but it's safe, i think, to aim at certain key areas, like 512, 1024, etc
[11:31] Arria Perreault: What do you think about the idea to build there a monastery?
[11:31] Arria Perreault: In a quiet place
[11:32] Jon Seattle: I love it if we can figure how to do it
[11:32] Michel Manen: well you can crtainly do the plans for it and then we;ll see how it looks and fits in and what people theink
[11:32] Arria Perreault: an old monastery lost in the mountains
[11:32] Jon Seattle: But let me work on the RAW file first so we know the slope of the land.. this is quite a bit more difficult than CN for that reason
[11:33] Arria Perreault: i can imagine that
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: we will need to come to an agreement (between RA, Guild and designers) about the proportion of public v. private land in the sim as well. and there are issues around pricing to consider as teh tier will be 50% higher than for NFS and CN
[11:33] You: should teh guild organize itself in workgroups similarly to what teh PC did?
[11:34] You: SPC*
[11:34] You: what do you think, would it help?
[11:34] Brian Livingston: It worked pretty well last time in terms of organization
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: that was a very succeful form of organisation if i recall correctly
[11:34] Sudane Erato: yes, although the planning should be simpler
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: *successful
[11:34] Brian Livingston: I mean, there was a large amount of cross over between working for different WEGs, but it made organization easier
[11:34] Jo Sapeur: hi there
[11:34] You: hi Jo
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: hi jo
[11:35] Brian Livingston: Hi Jo
[11:35] Arria Perreault: Hi Jo
[11:35] Michel Manen: hi jo nice to see you
[11:35] Sudane Erato: hey jo
[11:35] Jon Seattle: There will inevitably be cliffs -- you saw my photos
[11:35] Diderot Mirabeau: hello Jo
[11:35] Jon Seattle: Hi Jo
[11:35] Jo Sapeur: talking about the new sim?
[11:35] You: about planning of it, yes
[11:35] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Hi Jo
[11:35] Jo Sapeur: mmm... cliffs are fun
[11:35] Sudane Erato: hehe
[11:35] Jon Seattle: Jo, yes, but they do infliuce what you can build there
[11:36] Brian Livingston: Covenent wise, how is he sim goign to go as well? Is it a leser restriced covenent for the whole or will it be largely themed?
[11:36] You: ah, that is another thing to discuss
[11:36] Brian Livingston: /meh as a few ideas for some cliff side dwellinsg but they are likly not within a strict theme
[11:37] Brian Livingston: gotta love typos
[11:37] You: lol
[11:37] Moon Adamant is ina typo day herself
[11:37] You: so shall we we constitue ourselves into different workgroups?
[11:37] Jon Seattle: I gave Brian a copy of the proposal. Anyone else need one?
[11:38] Jo Sapeur: I do ^.^
[11:38] Patroklus Murakami: yes please
[11:38] Jon Seattle: Yes, but in theory project management is DNate's job
[11:38] Tanoujin Milestone: here, Jon
[11:38] You: oh ok
[11:38] Michel Manen: yes please
[11:38] Michel Manen: hahaha
[11:38] You: then let's leave that decision for when Dnate is present
[11:39] Jon Seattle: Yes, the charter says that the head of the faculty is to organize the project
[11:39] You: ok, perfect
[11:39] You: then i am going to ask if there is any other business?
[11:40] Arria Perreault: I have a brief information
[11:40] Jon Seattle listens to Arria
[11:40] Moon Adamant listens
[11:41] Arria Perreault: I have talked to Dnate about Faculty courses and I have proposed him two courses
[11:41] Arria Perreault: The first one that I can give alone will be "how to design easy clothes"
[11:42] Arria Perreault: so people can learn how to design a tee-shirt or easy things, for example when they organize an event
[11:42] You: ok, that is a good idea
[11:42] Patroklus Murakami: superb
[11:42] TOPGenosse Lundquist: great
[11:42] Arria Perreault: for the second one, i need maybe suggestions about the content
[11:42] Jon Seattle: I would love to take that course
[11:42] Michel Manen: yey''
[11:43] Arria Perreault: it will be a course for new citizen
[11:43] TOPGenosse Lundquist: I want some CDS socks
[11:43] Sudane Erato:
[11:43] Arria Perreault: to teach them how to deal with their house: add a door or change a texture
[11:44] Jo Sapeur: sounds like a basic building tutorial
[11:44] Arria Perreault: yes, but very practical
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: i think that would be very useful
[11:45] Arria Perreault: we can give it one or twice in a year
[11:45] Arria Perreault: if we are OK about the content, severyl people can give it
[11:45] Arria Perreault: several
[11:45] Jon Seattle: Arria, definitly talk to DNate, he is organizing classes. And we have this great space here for them.
[11:45] Arria Perreault: He is agree with this idea
[11:46] Arria Perreault: we will find dates
[11:46] Brian Livingston is still hoping to eventually see a basic Principles of Design course taught
[11:46] Jon Seattle: Yes, lets do that Brian
[11:46] Brian Livingston: Color Theory and the like
[11:47] Jon Seattle: I think that about five people in this room would be willing to pitch in
[11:47] You: hmmm, i am preparing a course like that lol
[11:47] Brian Livingston: Hehe
[11:47] You: but veeeery slooowly
[11:47] Brian Livingston: Wonderful!
[11:47] You: that and an art history one
[11:47] Brian Livingston: I've been debating an Urban Design primer course, but haven't gotte far on the developemnt of the curriculum
[11:47] You: very basic... but also veeeery slooowly
[11:48] You: that would be great!
[11:48] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Sounds cool Brian
[11:48] Brian Livingston: My thing is that htere is so much material, decidign between going fora practical outlook or more theoreticaland historical based
[11:49] Patroklus Murakami: yes, excellent ideas. it would be great to use these marvellous spaces for classes
[11:49] You: yes
[11:49] Tanoujin Milestone: i hope there will be an easy to find schedule here at the school?
[11:49] You: oh, there should be any issue about that Tanoujin
[11:49] Tanoujin Milestone:
[11:50] You: we are all aware that we have to look for comfy hours for everyone... so possibly weekends will be a bit busy
[11:50] You: with lessons, but this building not only has these two spaces here as two more rooms in teh sky
[11:51] You: ok everyone
[11:52] TOPGenosse Lundquist: TM > I don't know if the New Guild will put up a schedule here in the School, but it should be announced on the forum (http://forums.neufreistadt.info/) in the "New Guild" or "Events" section.
[11:52] You: as we are nearing two hours of discussion, i propose that we adjourn
[11:52] Jon Seattle: Can we adjourn and continue the discussion informally?
[11:52] Brian Livingston: No, all must Leave *cue dramatic music*
[11:52] You: lol
[11:52] Brian Livingston: hehe
[11:52] Arria Perreault: i have to go anyway
[11:52] Patroklus Murakami: well, i must go. time to eat in RL
[11:53] You: thank you all for showing up and for the very good contributions to discussion
[11:53] Patroklus Murakami: cheerio
[11:53] Jo Sapeur: ah, could anyone hand me a notecard with a log of the meeting from before I arrived?
[11:53] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Bye Pat, have a good evening
[11:53] Brian Livingston: Gnight Pat
[11:54] Jo Sapeur: if that's not a problem for anyone
[11:54] Jon Seattle: Bye Pat
[11:54] You: night pat, good dinner!
[11:54] Brian Livingston: Moon, do you have a log of the meeting>?
[11:54] Jo Sapeur: sorry for coming in late, but 10AM is not a very optimal time for me -.-
[11:54] You: btw good question, i am supposed to take a log, correct?
[11:54] Jo Sapeur: I hope so ^.^
[11:54] Tanoujin Milestone: yes, Jo, i copy my history, k?
[11:55] Jo Sapeur: official meetings should always be logged in my opinion
[11:55] Jo Sapeur: yes, thanks Tanou
[11:55] You: thanks Tanoujin
[11:55] TOPGenosse Lundquist: Dnate Mars volunteered to do it, until he started to feel ill and logged off.
[11:55] You: yes
[11:56] You: so with everyone's permission, i'll take the log myself and post it on the forum
[11:56] Jon Seattle: Please do

[Jo Sapeur]

[11:31] Arria Perreault: What do you think about the idea to build there a monastery?
[11:31] Arria Perreault: In a quiet place
[11:32] Jon Seattle: I love it if we can figure how to do it
[11:32] Michel Manen: well you can crtainly do the plans for it and then we;ll see how it looks and fits in and what people theink
[11:32] Arria Perreault: an old monastery lost in the mountains

I love the monastery idea, here's my suggestion for a possible use for it: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Kuula/56/156/176

Perfect place to distribute freebies, hang out, and maybe a small sandbox for new SL residents.

[Arria Perreault]

I also think that it is a public place. It is a good idea to use it to welcome new SL residents and also new CDS citizen and give them information. For the sandbox, it is a question of how much room we have. It is clear that such a place will bring traffic.
I will work on the plan.
The theme of the sim is alpestrian landscape. Abbay of Grand-Saint-Bernard could be a inspiration, but it is very big. It's better to have a smaller building. But we can keep the dogs !

[Jo Sapeur]

Here's some info on the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_of_St._Gall:3qd092cl]Abbey of St. Gall[/url:3qd092cl], it's a rather archetypical abbey for that region.

http://library.thinkquest.org/25994/

[Bromo Ivory]

I will weigh in, too with my support of the monastery idea!

I know Jo was a proponent of some sort of method by which to encourage new SL-ers to get involved - and through that outreach we can continuously renew ourselves as a community!

I LOVE the idea as well.

I would also like to have some sort of area that could be converted to a dance floor so enable parties easily - NFS' Platz is good though NFS is a bit laggy.