What System of Governance for CDS?

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michelmanen
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What System of Governance for CDS?

Post by michelmanen »

Pat,

You have posed three questions in reply to CARE's proposal to legislate a Term Limits and non-Cumulation of Offices Act in the CDS.

[quote:223hlew8]What proportion of the community do you think should be involved in public or quasi-public office? 50%? 75%? 100%?

I note also that you elide 'public and quasi-public'. Which offices are you talking about? I count 9 at the moment (3 SC, 5 RA and 1 Chancellor) held by eight individuals. What else do you count as 'public or quasi-public' office?

Who are the members of this mythical oligarchy and how did they gain power? What is your justification for saying there are no checks and balances?[/quote:223hlew8]

These questions raise a number of fundamental issues about the origins, nature, desirability, effectiveness and future of our system of governance. It is important that these be addressed in a contextual, coherent, comprehensive, clear manner. I shall do so here: http://www.care-cds.com/forum/index.php ... sg31#msg31

Due to time constraints and other commitments, this will happen in more than one step, so I ask for your indulgence in allowing me to conclude this post -hopefully by the end of the week-end- before starting to comment on and criticise my assertions.

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Re: What System of Governance for CDS?

Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="michelmanen":3taxxf7u]
These questions raise a number of fundamental issues about the origins, nature, desirability, effectiveness and future of our system of governance. It is important that these be addressed in a contextual, coherent, comprehensive, clear manner. I shall do so here: http://www.care-cds.com/forum/index.php ... sg31#msg31

Due to time constraints and other commitments, this will happen in more than one step, so I ask for your indulgence in allowing me to conclude this post -hopefully by the end of the week-end- before starting to comment on and criticise my assertions.[/quote:3taxxf7u]

Hi Michel, in spite of myself I have high hopes that the questions you raise will result in fruitful discussion, but I do have two quick questions and two quick corrections:

1. Why have this discussion away from our public forum (here) and on your privately-owned website where the rules are less clear?

2. On what basis are you speaking as the voice of CARE on these issues? Has this been considered at a CARE meeting? If so, are any transcripts available?

3. Not all of the politically active people, or even all the "founding avies", agree with the 7 assumptions you have there. I can point to numerous posts questioning almost every one of them.

4. It follows that not all political parties have accepted these 7 assumptions as sacrosanct, as you suggest in the post. Questioning these assumptions is NOT a defining feature of CARE that sets it apart from other parties in any way.

I look forward to reading your ideas.

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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:88rl297r]1. Why have this discussion away from our public forum (here) and on your privately-owned website where the rules are less clear?

2. On what basis are you speaking as the voice of CARE on these issues? Has this been considered at a CARE meeting? If so, are any transcripts available?

[/quote:88rl297r]

This is an internal CARE debate seeking to discuss, debate, define and clarify our positions of principle on our legislative proposals and activities as CDS citizens. I think it is entirely appropriate for it to take place on CARE's forums. If any non-CARE member wishes to participate in CARE's internal debates they are welcome to do so.

I have been accused - most recently a few minutes ago- for speaking in the name of CARE without properly consulting all CARE members. I have decided to largely withdraw, personally, from the CDS forums and post my personal opinions on the CARE forums; where my ideas and proposals will be discussed, debated, amended, voted on and adopted (or not) by the entire CARE membership. Only official CARE positions will then be posted on the offical CDS forums in the future in order to avoid such ad hominem attacks against me or any present or future CARE leaders.

[quote:88rl297r]3. Not all of the politically active people, or even all the "founding avies", agree with the 7 assumptions you have there. I can point to numerous posts questioning almost every one of them.

4. It follows that not all political parties have accepted these 7 assumptions as sacrosanct, as you suggest in the post. Questioning these assumptions is NOT a defining feature of CARE that sets it apart from other parties in any way. [/quote:88rl297r]

I do accept there is a lot of confusion about these issues in the CDS and that various individuals hold as true a different mix of these assumptions, and may disagree with others. We never really had a clear and open debate on these assummptions as a whole. The purpose of my post is to paint a coherent picture of the entire set of assumptions that have given birth to and shaped our community, the Weltanschauung they are based on, the paradigm of governance they engendered, the fallacies underlying them, and the reasons why CARE disagrees with them as well as CARE's alternative vision, paradigm, and practical proposals. I suggest that, as a whole, the CSDF, DPU, and SP do accept these assumptions and view them as desirable and / or actually functional in our community. If any one individual or party should disagree with this suggestion they are more than free to participate in this discussion and contribute to it their insights and ideas. For now, I see no other parties addressing these sets of issues in such a fundamental, comprehensive, and participative manner.

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Post by Flyingroc Chung »

I just noticed that the CARE forums has 85 boards. Isn't this is a little bit of an overkill? It's difficult for an observer to find topics of interest. I suggest you guys need to be a little more Pragmatic, and Simplify. ;-)

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Post by Beathan »

Michel writes

[quote:2orgdsnc]The notion that a community should be self-governed in accordance with democratic principles is at the very root of the CDS experiment in SecondLife. From this starting point, the "founding avies" of our community made a number of assumptions, derived from their RL experience:

1. we are creating a "territorially defined, sovereign nation-state";

2. "popular sovereignty" must be vested in "all citizens";

3. since "all citizens" cannot all "govern", we require a "system of representative democracy";

4. "strong political parties" are the optimum way to implement and conduct a "system of representative democracy".

5. "charismatic leadership" is inherently undesirable - therefore individual personalities should, to the extent possible, be excluded from the political process. This implies a weak executive and a focus on political parties rather than individual legislators -both during elections and during the sessions of the RA.

6. each branch of government must be "restrained" by others in its exercise of power- in effect, a real and effective system of checks and balances must -and does- exist between various branches of government;

7. The "system of representative democracy" thus devised must be easily scaleable: in other words, it should be equally applicable, with minor variations, to a community of 40 just as well as to a community of 4000 and -why not? - one of 400,000 citizens.

The fundamental difference between CARE and all other parties is that the latter believe all the assumptions above are either true, or desirable, or inevitable, or already implemented in practice in CDS. CARE disagrees with all these assumptions either in a) the fact that they are true, desirable, or inevitable; or b) that they actually exist in the current practice of politics in our community.

[/quote:2orgdsnc]

I think this fairly characterizes the debate. It also highlights what is wrong and dangerous about CARE and CARE's agenda.

1. CARE opposes the idea that the CDS is a "territorially defined, sovereign nation-state". I am not sure what part of this is opposed. If it is the territorial definition of our state -- then what purpose does CARE see in our continuing to own and locate our actions on specific sims? If CARE opposes our sovereignty, I have to ask, "what?" If we don't guard our sovereignty, we lose our ability to protect our rights. To whom would we surrender and subordinate ourselves? This challenge to our sovereignty is exactly the kind of thinking that I, in another post, branded as "treasonous," and I intend to propose legislation spelling this out.

2. CARE opposes the notion that "'popular sovereignty' must be vested in 'all citizens'". Again, what? This implies that the ultimate sovereignty of our project does not rest equally with all individuals. That commits CARE either to an elitist project (sovereignty for some, but not for all) or to a total (but equal) surrender of all sovereignty. (Treason again.)

3. CARE opposes the notion that "since 'all citizens' cannot all 'govern', we require a 'system of representative democracy'." I think that the arguments in favor of representative democracy are not limited to the observation that direct democracy of all citizens is not practical. In fact, not all citizens want to govern -- even if all citizens could. However, what is critical is that all citizens have ultimate decisionmaking power in the government -- which is guaranteed by regular popular election of government officials. However, given CARE's expressed opposition to the notion of CDS sovereignty in itself and in its citizens -- I can only interpret CARE's objection to representative democracy to be an objection to democracy. The logic of CARE's position is not valid otherwise.

4. CARE opposes the notion that "'strong political parties' are the optimum way to implement and conduct a 'system of representative democracy'." Again, the theory is not quite so simple. First, if the choice is between strong political parties and political strongmen -- then I think the parties other than CARE do agree that democracy is more workable and safer when parties are strong and politicians are relatively weak and secondary. That is, democracy works best when there is no rising demagogue trying to create a personality cult. Further, given the reality of our current situation -- SL and the CDS cannot be the focus of any of our lives (we need to eat iRL) -- we have to recognize that individuals come and go. It is ideas that endure -- and they best endure when there is some medium that supports them. CDS factions are such a medium.

5. CARE denies that "'charismatic leadership' is inherently undesirable - therefore individual personalities should, to the extent possible, be excluded from the political process. This implies a weak executive and a focus on political parties rather than individual legislators -both during elections and during the sessions of the RA." Again, CARE wants us to have a politics of strongmen (or a strongman), not a politics of ideas represented and continued through the medium of political associations of likeminded individuals (parties). There is little surprise in finding that the parties other than CARE disagree with this position -- and find it more autocratic than democratic. It is.

6. CARE objects to balance of power, opposing the idea that "each branch of government must be 'restrained' by others in its exercise of power- in effect, a real and effective system of checks and balances must -and does- exist between various branches of government." This is not surprising, given the autocratic commitment of CARE. Of course CARE does not want to see the power of offices restrained. CARE wants the power of offices held by CARE members (or, more accurately, by Michel Manen) to be unrestrained -- and to restrain all offices (including NGO offices) held by people or parties opposed to CARE and Michel Manen.

7. CARE opposes the idea that "The 'system of representative democracy' thus devised must be easily scaleable: in other words, it should be equally applicable, with minor variations, to a community of 40 just as well as to a community of 4000 and -why not? - one of 400,000 citizens." This might be a practical objection -- a belief that the system is not scalable. If so, why not? I see good reason to believe that representative democracy is scalable; that direct democracy is not scalable; and that autocracy is scalable only at great loss to the individual and individual rights.

Again -- I expect that most CARE members do not share Michel's position on these issues (or, at least, would not share those ideas if they thought them through). However, I note that Michel continues to speak for CARE -- that he does so on the CARE site and not on these forums makes not a bit of difference.

Beathan

Last edited by Beathan on Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
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Post by michelmanen »

LOL! We're just detailed an organised. The Boards are grouped in 17 categories. The biggest categories is "Our Current Policies" - which lists each of the 25 initiatives CARE has proposed in its Electoral Platform during the last elections. :lol:

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Post by michelmanen »

Beathan,

You are trying to frame CARE's debate by putting words in my mouth. I took the time to outline the 7 assumptions - and asked for your patience until I would explain each point. You have chosen to create 7 red herrings by utterly and falsely misrepresenting my - and CARE's positions on each and everyone of these topics.

That is of course, your right. It is neither ethical nor worth a detailed reply.

Michel

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

Putting words in your mouth? I broke my usual practice of avoiding direct quotation (which has caused such problems in the past) just so that I could not put any words in your mouth but your own.

Am I misinterpreting you? Possibly. However, I wait with bated breath to see what you (or CARE, if you have accurately stated the CARE position) could find objectionable about the theory that "'popular sovereignty' must be vested in 'all citizens'".

With regard to your claim that I jumped the gun -- perhaps. However, I think it is inappropriate to post a half-baked outline as if it summarized CARE's position and then complain when someone takes issue with the summary. If the summary is a good one -- it communicates enough about the position to be worth thinking about. If it is worth thinking about, it is substantive enough to respond to. If it does not communicate enough of the position to be worth thinking about, it should not have been posted in the first place.

Beathan

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Michel,

I saw the seven points Beathan quotes on these forums. Then they disappeared. I still hope we can discuss them here as you clarify them. I am interested in your criticism of each of the seven assumptions you reference. I actually agree with you that they form , to some degree , our "community axioms".

It is also good to see actual policy proposals. I only wish you had made your platform this clear during the campaign, as I believe it would have improved the whole electoral process. I also hope you will post your election proposal promptly. I'll try to reserve any comment on them until you put them up. I encourage you to post the proposals here as well as at your own site. Please let all of us participate in discussing these proposals, some of which would change our community significantly.

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Post by michelmanen »

Hi Claude,

It's true I briefly posted the full text of the first part my " What System of Governance for CDS?" here - but in light of the constant barrage of personal attacks against me, including the one claiming I arrogate to myself exclusively the right to speak for all CARE members, I decided to post that column as well as all other draft CARE policies on the CARE forums. Anyone - not just CARE members - are free to register on the CARE forums and participate in our internal debate and policy-making process. Once our members actually approve our platform and specific policies, we will post them on the CDS forums as official CARE policy proposals.

During the elections we outlined the fundamental principles underlying our policy proposals and listed out cleatly the commissions and acts we were proposing. However, the detailed policies had to await adoption by all our members after going hrough our internal debates and discussions. Unfortunately we were not able to complete this process before the last elections. Hopefully this problem will not arise again in the future.

Michel

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Michel

The 'worldview' you have posted is an interesting summary of your interpretation of the received wisdom in the CDS. For the most part I think it's a reasonably fair summary of the operating philosophy of many of us who have been activists in the CDS for a while and of the vision of the founders tempered through debate and discussion over time. I note that you are trying to define yourselves in opposition to some of those notions and you question whether others are really being implemented. This is a healthy, interesting debate about our philosophy; it won't get anything done but it's an interesting theoretical debate :) I'm all for us thinking about these things but I don't anticipate I'll have much time to in the next six months!

But, you haven't answered my questions and I think you're ducking them. Here they are again, and here's why I think you have answers ready right now and ought to make your views known.

[list:1r525cbh][i:1r525cbh][b:1r525cbh]What proportion of the community do you think should be involved in public or quasi-public office? 50%? 75%? 100%? [/i:1r525cbh][/b:1r525cbh]
Michel, you've said that the current proportion of citizens holding public (or quasi-public) office is too low. This is part of your (invalid) criticism that the CDS is run by a clique. If you feel it is too low, you must have some opinion about what would be an appropriate percentage. Why can't you tell us what that is?

[b:1r525cbh][i:1r525cbh]I note also that you elide 'public and quasi-public'. Which offices are you talking about? I count 9 at the moment (3 SC, 5 RA and 1 Chancellor) held by eight individuals. What else do you count as 'public or quasi-public' office?[/i:1r525cbh][/b:1r525cbh]
This is a fairly simple question. Why can't you answer it?

[i:1r525cbh][b:1r525cbh]Who are the members of this mythical oligarchy and how did they gain power? What is your justification for saying there are no checks and balances?[/b:1r525cbh][/i:1r525cbh]
Again, this is one of your repeated accusations, yet you never back it up with any evidence. If you truly believe the CDS is run by some shadowy clique then you must have a good idea of who these people are. Well, I'm calling your bluff. Tell us who you're talking about. Otherwise I'm forced to conclude that this is just dirty politicking and you don't really believe it. Or perhaps you prefer to name names in private where you can't be challenged? Come on Michel, let's have it out in the open - who are the oligarchs?
Bromo has made the (weak) point that checks and balances might not be working well if the same people occupy multiple posts. That only applies to me, I was already a member of the Scientific Council when I was first elected to the Representative Assembly. The solution, for which there is precedent, was for me to give up a vote on one of those bodies. I chose to relinquish my vote on the SC. But this is hardly evidence that there are no checks and balances. Do you have any better arguments than Bromo? If so, I'd like to hear them[/list:u:1r525cbh]

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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:17tz4x8s]I'm all for us thinking about these things but I don't anticipate I'll have much time to in the next six months![/quote:17tz4x8s]

Ah Pat, I wish you would.. Remember the old "Cogito ergo sum"? Just going through the motions based on "received wisdom" is, I dare say, not the most fruitful approach for a leader of any kind, least of all one of a community supposed to be creative, innovative, and "on the edge of tomorrow"... But I forget.... that's our motto... Yours is "Back to Basics"... That explains things..... (Incidentally, I cannot for the life of me comprehend, how you of all people, being who you actually are, could possibly adopt John Major's Tory motto of the mid-90s!)

Be that as it may, constructing red herrings "a la Beathan" and mis-representing my position is not really cricket either, is it now? But don't be concerned, I will develop my position and address your questions directly - just not in the way you may wish me to. As a good socialist, I'm sure you remember from your undergrad readings (Marx et al) that theory and practice are not only interrelated, but part of the same dialectic process of transformation -and that synthesis is not just a median way between thesis and antithesis, but a "Steigerung" - elevation of the dynamics of change at a new, higher level (Thomas Mann's "The Magic Mountain" is the perfect summer reading here). But I digress -and besides, you wont have time to "think" over the next six months, so I don't want to impose upon your cognitive faculties for no purpose at all.

In short - what You try to portray as my position is your business. I will develop my own argument as soon as I can - and hopefully by the beginning of next week. Until then you're free to proceed as you wish. Freedom of speech, remember? :P

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

LOL! Entertaining as ever, Michel. I look forward to seeing your answers next week... once you've worked out how to dodge my simple, straightforward questions which you already have answers too. Until then, I'll just have to wait. Ho hum!

I wondered if anyone would pick up on Major's use of "Back to Basics" but we were, of course, using it in quite a different way to Major to emphasise the need to fix what's broken and get stuff done. (Major's campaign, for those who don't know, was more of a return to victorian standards of morality; unfortunately for him, most of his Cabinet turned out to be better at the theory than the practice :) )

"Going through the motions on 'received wisdom'"? Shame on you:) I hope you were blushing when you wrote that!

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Post by Bromo Ivory »

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":1fdyym70]

I wondered if anyone would pick up on Major's use of "Back to Basics" but we were, of course, using it in quite a different way to Major to emphasise the need to fix what's broken and get stuff done. (Major's campaign, for those who don't know, was more of a return to victorian standards of morality; unfortunately for him, most of his Cabinet turned out to be better at the theory than the practice :) )[/quote:1fdyym70]

OOF! John Major. I was living in the UK during his PM-ship. I wasn't going to say anything about the slogan unless Pat showed up to the RA meeting wearing something from Caledon. LOL

And with John Major - the popularity was SO LOW I was really stunned he could keep anything together. But the US Prsident is keeping similar numbers currently, so go figure. Since party politics is weaker in the US than in the UK, it is unlikley the Republicans will suffer the current fate of the Tories.

Anyway - that really brought back some memories - a really good period of my RL. (No thanks to Jon Major). :D

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Post by michelmanen »

For Pat and Claude's benefit I have delayed the "theoretical middle" of my post "[b:3g9bskfo]What System of Governance for the CDS[/b:3g9bskfo]?" and jumped straight to the third section, "[u:3g9bskfo]Democratic Theory and Practice in CDS - Past, Present, Future[/u:3g9bskfo]", which can be accessed here: http://www.care-cds.com/forum/index.php ... sg31#msg31.

I will add the Second Part as soon as I can.

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