What if...

Gxeremio Dimsum · Post by **Gxeremio Dimsum** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:52 am

Just a wild thought here. What if we made a statement for virtual democracy by:
1. Creating our own currency (could be administered/spent via a HUD running off an SQL server) that could be exchanged for lindens but not USD (directly, anyway).
2. Held a referendum on allowing gaming (perhaps licensed by the CDS somehow) within the CDS.
3. Created a new mecca for gaming (in a zoned sim owned by the CDS), based on our CDS currency, and thus show the potential value of democratic self-government in a virtual world.

The currency part is to keep it within the laws of the US, where SL's servers reside, and to get around the change in rules announced by LL.

Just a crazy thought. I'm eager to hear your reactions.

Beathan · Post by **Beathan** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:16 pm

This idea has promise, but with 2 problems.

First, I am not sure that creating a secondary exchange changes the ultimate fact that the gambling would be for a real cash value. Adding an exchange step probably does not change the fact that gambling winnings can be converted to real cash.

Second, the Lindens are not likely to allow such activities. Already, we would be prohibited from publicising them.

However, if this could work, it could revitalize our community. The CDS as the Las Vegas of SL. LOL

Of course, the vitality this would bring might not be the vitality we want.

Beathan

michelmanen · Post by **michelmanen** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:26 pm

CARE has made Commerce, Arts, Recreation, Education its top four priorities exactly in order to revitalise our sims. There really is no need to adopt the very high-risk strategy of making the CDS the Las Vegas of SL- assuming we would even want that, in the first place...

Gxeremio Dimsum · Post by **Gxeremio Dimsum** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:26 pm

The first problem I understand, and though I'm no legal beagle, the UIGEA (which seems to be the act that has LL running scared) prohibits wire transfers into and out of USD, which we would not be involved in whatsoever.

LL's rules prohibit gambling in either linden dollars OR real-world currency or "other things of value" - depends on how they interpret this last phrase. There are ways around the advertising thing. For one, making a move like this would undoubtedly result in an explosion of WWW mentions of the CDS, but even inworld we can advertise things like "gaming."

Gxeremio Dimsum · Post by **Gxeremio Dimsum** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:27 pm

[quote="michelmanen":3o5blu8h]CARE has made Commerce, Arts, Recreation, Education its top four priorities exactly in order to revitalise our sims. [/quote:3o5blu8h]

Gaming is about commerce and recreation, and since it doesn't exist elsewhere on the grid there is a huge potential market for it. The CDS is in a unique position to fill that need.

p.s. Read the footer you put at the end of each of your posts.

Bromo Ivory · Post by **Bromo Ivory** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:40 pm

[quote="michelmanen":ewlfxwmy]... making the CDS the Las Vegas of SL- ...[/quote:ewlfxwmy]

Las Vegas? NOOOO!!

Monte Carlo!

I think the only way it would work would be to convert the Linden Dollars into tokens and never allow a cash-out -> That is the only way it would work without the US government being overly interested.

Gxeremio Dimsum · Post by **Gxeremio Dimsum** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:48 pm

[quote="Bromo Ivory":1cjp4yte][quote="michelmanen":1cjp4yte]... making the CDS the Las Vegas of SL- ...[/quote:1cjp4yte]

Las Vegas? NOOOO!!

Monte Carlo!

I think the only way it would work would be to convert the Linden Dollars into tokens and never allow a cash-out -> That is the only way it would work without the US government being overly interested.[/quote:1cjp4yte]

I like Vegas and Monte Carlo. Just not, you know, Atlantic City.

I think the tokens could go both ways between linden dollars and CDS currency, but just not from CDS currency to USD. The CDS currency could, perhaps, be used to pay tier in the CDS, or at CDS shops, or could be converted to lindens (perhaps a new industry of moneychangers?).

A CDS gaming commission could authorize which kinds of machines were used (to ensure fairness and limit the rake of the casinos), check for lag caused by the casinos, and help identify problem gamblers.

Maybe we should have some kind of inworld meeting where we decide 1) how we would do it if we did it and 2) whether or not we should do it.

Flyingroc Chung · Post by **Flyingroc Chung** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:32 pm

I'm not sure an extra level of indirection will technically allow us to have gambling in SL, but surely this violates the principle of the ban on wagering?

Much as I'd like to see my games being in use again, I do not know that going this route is wise. I've been approached by one person already asking if I could convert my blackjack table to use virtual ``chips.'' I refused for reasons of not having enough time, but I wonder what makes a different virtual currency in a virtual world any different than the L$.

Gxeremio Dimsum · Post by **Gxeremio Dimsum** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:42 pm

[quote="Flyingroc Chung":2rjsq2s4]I'm not sure an extra level of indirection will technically allow us to have gambling in SL, but surely this violates the principle of the ban on wagering?

Much as I'd like to see my games being in use again, I do not know that going this route is wise. I've been approached by one person already asking if I could convert my blackjack table to use virtual ``chips.'' I refused for reasons of not having enough time, but I wonder what makes a different virtual currency in a virtual world any different than the L$.[/quote:2rjsq2s4]

The ban on wagering isn't a ban for principle - it's a ban for fear of violating the law (or at least that's what they'd have us believe is the reason). If you read the blog post laying out the specifics of the ban, this type of plan could certainly be permissible under its terms.

The key difference, as far as the law is concerned, is the transition between the USD and the currency in question (the linden dollar). Wagering for play money has never been and could never be illegal in the US.

Aliasi Stonebender · Post by **Aliasi Stonebender** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:03 am

On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure I want to place the continued existence of the CDS on the strength of a loophole...

Ranma Tardis · Post by **Ranma Tardis** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:51 am

I do not think it is wise to seek loopholes as well. The Federal, State and Local governments are in their eyes protecting an important source of revenue. Then there are the gambling houses them self. I have read on another forum it is about the right wing Christian politicians. This is such unbelievable rubbish. I think second life gambling was cutting into their revenue stream and that is an unforgivable sin in any country.
A word to the wise, forget about gambling in Second Life.

Gxeremio Dimsum · Post by **Gxeremio Dimsum** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:30 am

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":bag5x7wy]On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure I want to place the continued existence of the CDS on the strength of a loophole...[/quote:bag5x7wy]

I admit I feel a little odd. I suggested something kind of as a brainstorm, and people are speculating on reasons why it couldn't work.

Do I think we should just do it, assuming there is a loophole? No. But I'm saying that this proposal MIGHT be legal under both US laws and the Linden terms that were announced. How about we ask a Linden before we assume that this "loophole" is unintentional and that we would be punished for taking advantage of our community's strengths.

Aliasi Stonebender · Post by **Aliasi Stonebender** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:54 am

[quote="Ranma Tardis":2dcq71y8]I do not think it is wise to seek loopholes as well. The Federal, State and Local governments are in their eyes protecting an important source of revenue. Then there are the gambling houses them self. I have read on another forum it is about the right wing Christian politicians. This is such unbelievable rubbish. I think second life gambling was cutting into their revenue stream and that is an unforgivable sin in any country.
A word to the wise, forget about gambling in Second Life.[/quote:2dcq71y8]

Perhaps true enough where the real-life governments are concerned, but LL clearly adopted this course as a last resort.

Pelanor Eldrich · Post by **Pelanor Eldrich** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:37 pm

At some point our own currency (such as IBM has done) would be a great statement of CDS sovereignty. It does have quite a number of headaches associated with it, but it's an interesting thought.

In terms of the gambling idea, it would have to run on non-redeemable "tokens". As such, it's pay to play and nothing to win but tokens. Much as arcade games in the states are run.
Now if you wanted to offer a cashout to a RL currency on a website located where such a thing was not illegal, well...

Risky though...I think you'd want dedicated land for it and a very good "Plan B" for that land use if/when the idea implodes for all kinds of reasons.

Nikki · Post by **Nikki** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:57 pm

It seems gambling could possibly be more acceptable if it were to benefit a charity.

The SL blog did say about the ban: "This policy applies to all use of Second Life." However, its stated concern is: "Linden Lab and Second Life Residents must comply with state and federal laws applicable to regulated online gambling."
(http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/07/25/w ... #more-1106)
Therefore, perhaps if the games could be created in a way that would not be a violation of the law, then this could be acceptable to Linden Lab.

This is not to say whether such gambling would be desirable for the citizens of the CDS or not, which is another topic. Apparently there was once a casino on the Marktplatz in NFS. Does anyone remember how that was?

From my perspective there are conditions under which gambling can be acceptable - for example a public lottery that in some way benefits the community.

CDS Discussion

What if...

What if...

Maybe not gambling...but maybe our own currency.