PCA - Defining the CDS

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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michelmanen
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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:1ezqjyrm]If we are to give the CDS legal personality in the form of an avatar then let's use 'Rudeen Edo' who, after all, provides that function right now.[/quote:1ezqjyrm]

I thought about that. Two issues come up:

Would Sudane agree? She clearly stated in the most emphatic manner that Rudeen is *not* the CDS.

If she agrees, Rudeen would have a double function: land administration, controlled solely by Sudane, and "CDS representation", controlled by whoever the RA determines. See below.

[quote:1ezqjyrm]I'm not keen on the idea of a 'Great Council'. It's a novel addition to our system of government which mashes up the three branches of government and brings in a putative Chief Judge - a very questionable politicisation of the judiciary. I'd prefer to see the power to represent the CDS vested in an individual, the LRA perhaps? :)[/quote:1ezqjyrm]

The Great Council would have very limited powers, mainly related to common CDS assets and possibly also acting as the proposed CARE Citizenhip Commission. The Chief Justice (if and when set up by the RA) would act in a position similar to that of Corporate Counsel sitting on Corporations' Board of Directors. Given the envisaged functions of the Great Council, the presence of the Chief Justice is absolutely fundamental.

Vesting the power to represent the CDS in one person is very dangerous indeed, for the reasons explained by Pelanor. This proposal largely builds upon Pelanor's and ensures that the substance of the CSDF proposal that "The CDS is represented by all three branches of government" actually is implemented in practice, not just theory.

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Desmond Shang
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Post by Desmond Shang »

Don't forget to mention the incredible natural wealth of the CDS!

It has acronyms in abundance, and Caledon has hardly any...

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Post by michelmanen »

Ah Des - you're entirely right. This gives me an idea- would you like to play the role of the Queen to our Canada and be our honorary Head of State? That would solve a lot of problems!

(Hmm... I hope this is not a treasonous act... :twisted: )

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Pelanor Eldrich
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A couple of "head of state" ideas

Post by Pelanor Eldrich »

We had a couple of ideas. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Swiss model has no real head of state but instead uses a council of federally elected reps (7). I think the nominal head of state powers are transferred year to year within this group (which is composed of members of different factions). So a few options:

Option 1)LRA is Head of State which gives him/her the authority to act as sole representative when dealing with external entities, such as Linden Labs or other resident run gov'ts. You'd only want to do this when a "Grand Council" type of body could not convene.

Option 2)Like the Swiss, the Head of State function is passed to each member of the RA in borda count order changing every month. Member 7 wouldn't get it unless it was changed every 3 weeks.

Option 3)The one I like (and I proposed this when we had a Simplicity Party Chancellor) is to have the Chancellor as Head of State. Remembering that this title confers only the foreign affairs portfolio.

I may put forward a bill for option 3 per the DPU platform. What do you guys think of these options? -Pel

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Post by Desmond Shang »

[quote="michelmanen":tx9lcyrl]Ah Des - you're entirely right. This gives me an idea- would you like to play the role of the Queen to our Canada and be our honorary Head of State? That would solve a lot of problems!

(Hmm... I hope this is not a treasonous act... :twisted: )[/quote:tx9lcyrl]
Ah, no thanks!

I wouldn't want to be blamed for anything that went on in the CDS.

I'm not Head of State material in any case, anywhere. Truth to tell, I can't even think of the last time I've had to enforce anything in Caledon. It's been months, easy. I'm too busy scrambling around getting land for people, designing new sims, stuff like that.

Honestly, my role is more of a 'waiter on rollerskates' than a 'policeman', as inconceivable as that may seem on this forum.

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

Although I do like the idea of casting Desmond as a queen -- in as much drag as possible -- your proposal is indeed treasonous (although of the petty variety).

Beathan

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
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Post by Bromo Ivory »

[quote="Desmond Shang":23a0cueu][
Honestly, my role is more of a 'waiter on rollerskates' than a 'policeman', as inconceivable as that may seem on this forum.[/quote:23a0cueu]

So Queen of CDS, in drag on rollerskates taking everyone's drink order .... hmmmm .... I am sure we can arrange for something .... :)

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

OK, enough of the floorshow :)

There are several issues here, let's try to tease them out:

[list:35gi51p8][i:35gi51p8][b:35gi51p8]1. What is the CDS? [/b:35gi51p8][/i:35gi51p8]I think we're close to a consensus on that. I think that 'community' is a bit too woolly and 'citizens' more precise but I think we're agreed that the CDS is more than just some property, it is fundamentally the people who have chosen to be part of it.

[i:35gi51p8][b:35gi51p8]2. Who holds CDS property, particularly intellectual property, on behalf of the CDS? [/b:35gi51p8][/i:35gi51p8]I think using Rudeen Edo as our 'repository' for this as well as the 'avatar-face' of the CDS makes sense.
[i:35gi51p8]
[b:35gi51p8]3. Who represents the CDS to Linden Labs, other SL democracies (should they arise), micronations (such as Caledon) and groups (such as the Dune RP sim owners)? [/b:35gi51p8][/i:35gi51p8]Here it is more tricky. We have been reluctant to invest this kind of power/responsibility in an individual. Actually, we've kind of fudged the question. Claude represented the CDS in negotiations with Ulrika I understand after agreement from the SC (and Guild?) But it is this failure to say who can speak for the CDS that leads to so many problems. We don't get our act together for the SL birthday celebrations, no one outside of the CDS knows who they should contact to get things done. We can take the 'Great Council' approach by mashing together the three branches of government (the judiciary should be kept out of such matters in my opinion) but it's still not very efficient. Are we ready to take the step of vesting this representational role in one person? If so, should it be the LRA, the Chancellor or the Dean?[/list:u:35gi51p8]

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Bromo Ivory
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Post by Bromo Ivory »

Hi Pat!

I was wondering what problem we were going to be solving by this?

I am skeptical that this is going to be a good use of the RA's time, actually.

I view a preamble like a mission statement in a corporation - especially since it appears you want to write it into the constitution.

In this I tend to agree with a minimalist mindset - By adding a preamble we will generally make it easier to muddle constitutional issues and put another layer of stuf fon the constitution.

So ... before we start talking about how to write this "mission statement" - please lets figure out what we are trying to accomplish?

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Post by Jon Seattle »

I am not sure of Pat's full motivation, but one issue here is that in order to deal with the IP rights issue the CDS must either become or be associated with a RL legal entity.

To be sure there are a number of different ways to organize this, but all the ones I can think of will require some definition to use to register our organization or add to the text of a contract.

I doubt we will have solved this by Sunday, but I am glad to see the process underway.

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Bromo Ivory
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Post by Bromo Ivory »

I agree we do need to sort out the IP ownership - but I am not certain a preamble to the constitution would solve this issue?

I guess I am genuinely confused here on what it is we are discussing and the means we are proposing to solve this.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Bromo

At the Guild meeting held a couple of weeks ago where this came up, your fellow CARE co-chair Michel Manen made a big issue of this. He asked the perfectly valid question 'What is the CDS?' in connection with the argument that IP rights to CDS property should belong to 'the CDS' as opposed to another body (such as the Guild). I think the question 'What is the CDS?' is eminently solveable and have put forward an amendment to the constitution to clarify it. Otherwise we go round in circles asking 'Who should hold the IP rights on behalf of the CDS?' without ever saying what the CDS is!

In doing so I was trying to do more than merely solve the technical/legal issue but also make a general statement of what the CDS is and what it is for. The intention was to start a debate. It has, which is good.

I've given you the three issues we're discussing in my post above. The second one relates to the IP issue. What are your opinions on all three of them?

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Bromo Ivory
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Post by Bromo Ivory »

Pat -

My issue is not with the points o' Philosophy - but the mechanism by which we propose to realize this philosophy.

The question is a perfectly valid one - certainly - and am I correct that the CSDF realization of this is to amend the constitution with a preamble?

[quote="Patroklus Murakami":fjncfuna]Bromo

At the Guild meeting held a couple of weeks ago where this came up, your fellow CARE co-chair Michel Manen made a big issue of this. He asked the perfectly valid question 'What is the CDS?' in connection with the argument that IP rights to CDS property should belong to 'the CDS' as opposed to another body (such as the Guild). I think the question 'What is the CDS?' is eminently solveable and have put forward an amendment to the constitution to clarify it. Otherwise we go round in circles asking 'Who should hold the IP rights on behalf of the CDS?' without ever saying what the CDS is!

In doing so I was trying to do more than merely solve the technical/legal issue but also make a general statement of what the CDS is and what it is for. The intention was to start a debate. It has, which is good.

I've given you the three issues we're discussing in my post above. The second one relates to the IP issue. What are your opinions on all three of them?[/quote:fjncfuna]

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Post by Nikki »

This is in reply to what Pelanor wrote above.

It is true that in Switzerland the highest office of the government is a council of seven faction leaders, called the Federal Council. Each year a different member of this council is elected to represent it, and is given the title “Federal President.” This is the highest representative of the government, and therefore also of the country. The Federal President is however only the member of the Federal Council who is chosen to represent it, and has no more power to make decisions than the other members.

Who will be given this title is decided among the members of the council. The tradition is that it is passed to each member in a 3x rotation from a representative of one language-area to another, as a symbol of national cooperation and unity.

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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:2hqf98em]1. What is the CDS? I think we're close to a consensus on that. I think that 'community' is a bit too woolly and 'citizens' more precise but I think we're agreed that the CDS is more than just some property, it is fundamentally the people who have chosen to be part of it.[/quote:2hqf98em]

Agreed.

[quote:2hqf98em]2. Who holds CDS property, particularly intellectual property, on behalf of the CDS? I think using Rudeen Edo as our 'repository' for this as well as the 'avatar-face' of the CDS makes sense.[/quote:2hqf98em]

If all parties concerned, agree, this is a valid solution to the issues raised.

[quote:2hqf98em]3. Who represents the CDS to Linden Labs, other SL democracies (should they arise), micronations (such as Caledon) and groups (such as the Dune RP sim owners)? ... Are we ready to take the step of vesting this representational role in one person? If so, should it be the LRA, the Chancellor or the Dean?[/quote:2hqf98em]

I see two distinct possibilities, each projecting a different image of the CDS:

1. A Great Council (with possibly a rotating Chair, on the Swiss model, or permanently led by one of its members - there are valid arguments for each to be the Chair: SC Dean - guardian of the vision; directly-elected Chancellor: democratic legitimacy; RA-elected LRA: responsible majority government); or

2. A directly-elected Chancellor.

I favor the second choice, but could live with the first as well.

I would have a problem with un unelected SC Dean as only voice of the CDS, just as I would with an RA-only elected LRA (not to mention one not elected at all as is now the case!) who may or may not change depeding on the RA's composition.

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