The New Article II - The Executive bill

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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Jon Seattle
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Post by Jon Seattle »

[quote="michelmanen":2dclpwd2]That is hardly a fair assessment of the Chancellor's proposal, which CARE fully supports. The top vote-getter becomes Chancellor, he runner-up is the Vice-Chancellor. [/quote:2dclpwd2]I've read Dnate's original bill and nowhere does it mention a Vice-Chancellor. He added that after my post. Even if we had such a position, it is not at all clear if that person would have any responsibilities or powers.

[quote="michelmanen":2dclpwd2]
[quote:2dclpwd2]The RA and the Chancellor, at least right now, have different functions. The RA is not supposed to meddle directly in implementation, and the executive branch is not supposed to make policy.[/quote:2dclpwd2]And how did that work for us over the past 6 RA? More of the same, anyone?[/quote:2dclpwd2]Not counting this one, we have had a Chancellor for two RAs (actually a little less). Are you that oblivious to our history?

Last edited by Jon Seattle on Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:3i8b33pf]Your long reply deserves a full rebuttal elsewhere. I'll get to it when I have the time. The short version is: Caledon is not a democracy, we are. Democracy is messy, difficult and takes time. It's less efficient than benevolent dictatorship, but I prefer our system to living under Desmond's jackboot, even if he does apply it lightly Smile Others make a different choice. /me shrugs.[/quote:3i8b33pf]

First, on a purely personal note, as a friend and admirer's of Desmond's, I am appalled at your, frankly, idiotic comment about "living under Desmond's jackboot". I will not even dignify that with an answer. I apologise to Desmond for this entirely unwarranted and unjustifiable attack on his vision, commitment and achievements and most emphatically state that only very few here, in the CDS, think of him in these terms.

Second, our de facto oligarchy is hardly a model of democracy. Jump up and down in protest and outrage all you want. That's what we actually are right now.

Third, democracy doesn't have to be "messy, difficult and takes time". It just so happenss that our version is. We need to change that.

[quote:3i8b33pf]What you've utterly failed to demonstrate is how this kind of constitutional tinkering (which CARE is way too fond of) is likely to produce any concrete results.I think that the electorate can see through this, and have. That's why your faction came last in the recent elections, and the CSDF won with our practical 'Back to Basics' message.[/quote:3i8b33pf]

People are reluctant to change and try new things. We understand that. And yet - we got 16 first votes to your 19 and SP's 15. That is hardly last - unless of course one applies all sorts of Borda Counts and Saint League procedures to the actual result.

[quote:3i8b33pf]There's a very unpleasant tone to your dismissal of the work of the previous 6 RAs. Did you mean to be so contemptuous of others' achievements?[/quote:3i8b33pf]

Bull. I took great care to describe and comment on our 2 great achievements - our 2 high-quality sims and our continuous elections. Your blatant attempts to cast me as the "big bully" and have me ostracized because I dare spell out in detail what's wrong with the CDS did not work in the past. They will not work in the future.

[quote:3i8b33pf]A directly-elected Chancellor is a recipe for delay, inaction and inter-institutional rivalry. You need to come up with some better arguments than this.[/quote:3i8b33pf]

How so? That's one opinion only. Let's try it out and see, in practice. On the other hand, the status quo you defend has been documented, over six RAs, to produce some of the very same results (among others) you accuse our proposals of bringing about before they have been even fully discussed and debated - never mind implemented and tried out in practice. It is you who need better arguments to justify why we should go on keeping a system that has failed us on so many levels.

Vision. Leadership. Community. Transforming the CDS in a Dynamic Community at the Edge of Tomorrow. 16 citizens belive in this program for action. 19 voted for "Back to Basics". 15 voted for the SP's "simple" road. And 26 did not vote at all. The struggle for "hearts and minds" is far from over; it has merely begun. And your attempts to shift the grounds of debate from arguments and facts to personal attacks and invectives will just make the process more unpleasant - but won't stop it.

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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:2zvt4i6z]Not counting this one, we have had a Chancellor for two RAs (actually a little less). Are you that oblivious to our history?[/quote:2zvt4i6z]

LOL Jon. The CDS has tried to balance its branches of government - Executive, Legislative, Phiosophical, Artisanal from the very beginning of its existence. The abolition of the Artisanal branch and creation of the Chancellor are just the latest attempts to do so. The fact that the Chancellor's office has existed for only a year does in no way limit the record of the CDS attempts to balance the Executive and Legislative branches and their respective powers and responsibilities to only 2 RAs.

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Post by Jon Seattle »

[quote="Dnate Mars":39ftdzq0]What if we add a second spot, a Vice Chancellor? If we make him or her the second place vote getter, won't that solve some of the problems with the "winner take all" type issues?[/quote:39ftdzq0]One of the problems with that is that in many cases the two will often be from different parties, rather than being running mates. I could easily see disputes breaking out. The point of having a clear leader in on the executive side is that someone can coordinate all parts of executive action.

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Post by michelmanen »

Lincoln nominated to his cabinet some of his most vocal adversaries. That didn't seem to stop him from providing decisive leadership during the gravest crisis in US history. Strong opinions, discussions and debates only strengthen one's abilities to provide leadership. When the debate is over, the buck will stop with the Chancellor.

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Post by Bromo Ivory »

[quote="Jon Seattle":5b59uguw][quote="Dnate Mars":5b59uguw]What if we add a second spot, a Vice Chancellor? If we make him or her the second place vote getter, won't that solve some of the problems with the "winner take all" type issues?[/quote:5b59uguw]One of the problems with that is that in many cases the two will often be from different parties, rather than being running mates. I could easily see disputes breaking out. The point of having a clear leader in on the executive side is that someone can coordinate all parts of executive action.[/quote:5b59uguw]

And that is why the second one is "Vice Chancellor" - not Co-Chancellor ....

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Well, so far the proponents of this idea have come up with no arguments at all beyond "It'll be better because it's different." That's nowhere near good enough.

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Post by michelmanen »

.. but still better than "Let's stick with what we have because it's just how we do things here even if they don't work". :lol: Come on, Pat. The arguments are there. They are clear. They are backed by factual evidence. Refusing to acknowledge them does not make them go away. [b:20noeusk]"E pur si muove"![/b:20noeusk]

[The Italian phrase "E pur si muove" or "Eppur si muove" means And yet it moves. Pronunciation in IPA: [ep'pur si 'mwɔ:ve].

Legend has it that the Italian mathematician, physicist and philosopher Galileo Galilei muttered this phrase after being forced to recant in 1633, before the Inquisition, his belief that the earth moved around the sun.

At the time of Galileo's trial, the dominant view among theologians and philosophers was that the Earth is stationary, indeed the center of the universe. Galileo's adversaries brought the charge of heresy, then punishable by death, before the Inquisition. Since Galileo recanted, he was only put under house arrest until his death, nine years after the trial.

There is no contemporary evidence that Galileo uttered this expression at his trial; it would certainly have been highly imprudent for him to have done so. The earliest biography of Galileo, written by his disciple Vincenzio Viviani in 1717, does not mention this phrase, and depicts Galileo as having sincerely recanted. The legend first became widely published in Querelles Litteraires (1761), recounting a tale published by an Italian living in London in 1757 (124 years after the supposed utterance).

In 1911, the famous line was found on a Spanish painting owned by a Belgian family, dated 1643 (1645?). The painting is obviously ahistorical, since it depicts Galileo in a dungeon, but nonetheless proves that some variants of the "Eppur si muove" legend had been circulating for over a century before it was published, perhaps even in his own lifetime.

Although the Galileo affair resulted in a temporary reverse for the cause of heliocentrism, the work of Galileo, Nicholas Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, and Isaac Newton ultimately vindicated the theory. Even if Galileo never uttered "Eppur si muove," the phrase accurately reflects the empiricist spirit he helped to foster in early modern Europe.]

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Jon Seattle
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Post by Jon Seattle »

[quote="Dnate Mars":1jfw5gdx]Just as a side note, I am a member of the DPU, but I did not base this off of the DPU bill. I guess it explains why I was in the DPU to start with. It seems that the DPU and CARE are on board with this, and the CSDF is against it. It would be nice to hear what the members of the SP think of this bill.[/quote:1jfw5gdx]I suspect the SP members are sitting back and eating popcorn while enjoying the debate.

1. This is a constitutional amendment and as such will require a super-majority.
2. This means to pass it you need at least some support from the CSDF.

Now, if you are hoping that CDS will rise up and demand that CSDF will change it's vote, I think that unlikely. I intend to vote as I think best for the CDS.

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Post by michelmanen »

Putting one foot in front of the other leads on to ultimate results - for the journey of a thousand miles, as Confucius once said, begins with the first step...

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Post by Jon Seattle »

[quote="michelmanen":1jh1qr28].. as Confucius once said, begins with the first step...[/quote:1jh1qr28]lol! but watch where you step!

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Post by michelmanen »

LOL! :lol:

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Post by Dnate Mars »

[quote="Jon Seattle":poqh2s7b][quote="Dnate Mars":poqh2s7b]Just as a side note, I am a member of the DPU, but I did not base this off of the DPU bill. I guess it explains why I was in the DPU to start with. It seems that the DPU and CARE are on board with this, and the CSDF is against it. It would be nice to hear what the members of the SP think of this bill.[/quote:poqh2s7b]I suspect the SP members are sitting back and eating popcorn while enjoying the debate.

1. This is a constitutional amendment and as such will require a super-majority.
2. This means to pass it you need at least some support from the CSDF.

Now, if you are hoping that CDS will rise up and demand that CSDF will change it's vote, I think that unlikely. I intend to vote as I think best for the CDS.[/quote:poqh2s7b]

So far the only support that the CSDF has given to this debate is that "we don't want change, why do you?" I could ask if why you don't want anything to change with this branch, but are working hard to change the way the RA is selected.

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Post by Dnate Mars »

Maybe instead of voting directly for a chancellor, each faction put forward one candidate, if they so chose, and have them run off for an election. I also think that ranking them and having an auto-runoff may be a very good idea. At least it will have results sooner rather than later.

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Dnate

To answer your question:

The CSDF is proposing reform of the way we elect the RA in order to bring direct, measurable benefits to our citizens. After the reform citizens will be able to rank not just the parties, but the candidates as well. All citizens will then have the opportunity that is only reserved for members of factions at the moment.

CSDF members have questioned this proposal to reform the voting system for the Chancellor because it's not clear what it would really change or why it's being proposed. Under questioning it's become clear that the real reason is to strengthen one branch (the executive) at the expense of another (the RA) but without any adequate explanation of why that's necessary.

I'm afraid that if you want to propose amending our constitution and unbalancing the system of checks and balances between the branches of government in such a fundamental way, then you need to have good arguments for doing so. So far, I haven't seen any.

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