Citizenship Fee Poll

[michelmanen]

Bromo wrote:

[quote:2hsqj18u]I am a small landholder in CDS, my monthly tier for my (1 town + 1 prim lot) is L$707 appx. Bumping it up to L$1200 per month would make a "typical" NFS town plot (256m^2) + prim lot (144m^2) priced significantly out of market, tier wise. I would need to nearly double my holdings to maintain the same tier per m^2. Given the small number of prims I have, paying nearly double for it in my case (which I suspect is typical for a lot of folks) would make no sense - the issue is not if it is "affordable" but value for money.

Any tax that would rise above the 128m^2 price amounts to a regressive tax on small landholders - which I am sure is not the intent. This will make it difficult to sell small property as well to new residents - might even create a "underclass" since it would only be economic to buy 1024m^2 or higher compared to grid-wide property tier prices. The hardest hit by this would be the NFS town residents, as well as the small plots in CN. I expect the net effect would be a decrease in population size.

So, I would not be for rising the tier one linden dollar - "citizenship tax" or what have you. I don't think we would need to anyway.[/quote:2hsqj18u]

Well, the solution to this is either to a) double the minimum required lot or b) half the weekly citizenship fee to $0.50L ($2.25 / month).

However, ths point of this exercise is to dissociate the citizenship fee from land holdings. You should not equate the monthly citizenship fee with the value of the land. As you said, the CDS is not simply a housing co-cop. The value of citizenship goes well beyond the holding of a land lot.

The question therefore still remains: do you think that a monthly citizenship fee of $4.25 US is an excessive amount to pay?

Let us make a very rough calculation based on similar-size lots in and out of the city in NFS and CN:

Lot - Sim Area (m2) Prims Monthly tier

P270 - NFS 720 166 $ 4.18US(1272L)
1290 Kendrastr. - NFS 512 118 $ 3.96US(1206L)
C.10 - CN 480 110 $4.37US(1331L)
E.02 - CN 1056 243 $8.87US(2743L)
(double lot: factor 2)

[b:2hsqj18u]Average 554 160 $4.28US(1310L)[/b:2hsqj18u]

This shows that requiring every citizen to pay $1US per week or about $4.25US per month is roughly equivalent to having a minimum required lot of 512m2 with 118 prims.

We could therefore say that payment of a monthly citizenship fee of $4.25US per month entitles every citizen to a 512 m2, 118 prim lot.

When such lots become available, landlless citzens would have priority in purchasing them. If the lot is less or up to that limit, no other tier fees would be due in addition to the citizenship fee.

If the lot is bigger or if the citizen would end up owning more than 512m2, he/she would only pay the tier fee for the area over and above the 512m2 lot to which the citizenship fee entitles every citizen.

Once we have a waiting list of landless citizens, there wouldn't be any issue of not being able to sell a lot, even lots smaller than 512m2, at the same price as the purchase price. Tier fees would make no difference, since lots smaller or equal to 512m2 would require no additional monthly payments than the citizenship fees landless citizens already pay.

[Bromo Ivory]

I vote none of the above:

"I believe that while citizenship and land ownership can and should be decoupled, the aggregate fees and expenses currently being payed by citizens should not be raised - making the best choice is a minimal monthly citizenship fee (128m^2)."

[michelmanen]

I don't agree. Keep in mind that new sims will be more expensive than NFS. This means all fees will either have to be raised across all sims, or new sims' citizens would have to pay much greater amounts than that payed by minimum lot holders in the old sim where NFS is located.

This does not really solve our up-coming new sim fees problem, nor does it establish a realistic and meaningful monthly citizenship fee for landless citizens. In any case, keeping minium lots at 128 m2 AND the current NFS / CN tier fees for ALL current and future CDS citizens is financially not possible.

[Beathan]

Michel --

For the first time, I have found a poll in these forums I can't answer. Even the worst "push polls" of the past (including the Ashcroftian era) had some option that could more or less approximate my position. This poll is absurd.

Beathan

[Dnate Mars]

We may have to raise prices across the board anyway. I really don't like that you are basically saying that 512sqm is the new minimum requirement, and oh yeah, you may not actually even be able to own land.

[michelmanen]

LOL! Beathan...

[michelmanen]

Dnate,

The entire purpose of this is to separate citizenship fees from land ownership. I realise you may not like the specific details of my proposal. What is yours? (512m2 is the old LL firstland size btw - so I see no problem with that ; - btu that's just me )

Also, I hope that before deciding to raise tier fees across the board we will have a discussion about where and how this will be done. In fact, now it is a perfect time

Michel

[Dnate Mars]

We may not have a big say in it. If LL decides that all the old sims will be charged $295 a month, fees will have to go up about 50%. I think the current rate lock is only in place until the end of the year. Who knows what LL will do with tiers.

[michelmanen]

Ah you mean if they upgrade all sims automatically? Yes then of course the issue is moot

[Bromo Ivory]

Right now the way things stand -

The Neufreistadt is a class 3 server - so slower and more lag
The COlonia Nova is a class 5 server (I *think*) - so quicker and less lag
The new SIM server will be class 5+ - so quicker and less lag.

As things stand right now, the value of 1m^2 in NFS is less valuable then 1m^2 in CN or the new one - due to la, speed and so on. So Tier can and should be less for it - since it has less value overall.

If Linden Labs upgrades the server - and increases tier to $295/mo - of COURSE tier fees will have to be adjusted.

BUT

What if LL does the upgrade and doesn't increase the tier (very possible that they do this since class 5 SIMS on the mainland are the tier for NFS) - the value of NFS will be increased - and the questions would have to be can CDS get more money for the *value* that NFS would have now. This will be a political question - and one I think the RA at that time can and should discuss.

Now for the issue at hand. Given that I am a populist at heart, and one that doesn't like raising fees and taxes unless absolutely required - I believe the citizenship fee, decoupled from the land ownership issue - really needs to eb careful considered:

1. It should *not* be regressive on anyone - the smallest landholder is 128m^2, so it should be set to that in our cheapest SIM.
2. It has to be individually paid (meaning the Avatar pays Rudeen or whoever is performing the function directly as is today - even for NGO)
3. If more money is required for filtering or whatever - I would be much more for a bond or one time fee - minimal - that can be used towards land purchase - and would be held in escrow.

*****
But when and if NFS is upgraded to class 5+, the talk of tier reform be put on the back burner. But I would think we should talk about that when and if ti happens - I do not believe it needs to be part of our citizenship discussion at this point - other than establishing the level of the fee.

[Aliasi Stonebender]

[quote="michelmanen":1je6c1f3]LOL! Beathan...[/quote:1je6c1f3]

Michel, out of pure curiosity, are you ever capable of more original/informative responses than teenage texting-speak?

[Gxeremio Dimsum]

If we are truly a confederation, why not have each sim take care of its own fees, as well as chipping in to the CDS kitty.

I don't think non-land citizenship should cost as much as land citizenship, because what you're getting with land citizenship (land) is more valuable to some people. Additionally, landowners "cost" the government more in services and oversight than non-landowners. Our plots are laughably small, especially in Neufreistadt where I could "fill" my shop by putting one medium-prim object in it. Perhaps we can increase the minimum size of plots for people who want land, and offer non-land citizenship for around USD$10 per RA term.

[Dnate Mars]

As far as I know, there are no class 3s left on the grid. I think that NFS has been updgraded to Class 4 and I think CN is also a class 4. The new sim will be a class 5. This also means that NFS and CN can't have voice unless we upgrade them, but that means we also have to play an extra $100 a month for each sim.

[michelmanen]

Like, whatever, Aliasi! Talk to the hand!

[Salzie Sachertorte]

I believe you are looking at these fees in the wrong manner. If you are proposing to [i:yth1hrif]not[/i:yth1hrif] tie citizenship to land ownership – then the cost of citizenship should [i:yth1hrif]not[/i:yth1hrif] be tied to land ownership as well. Rather all citizens should pay a user fee, which would be determined within the budget process, not a set amount pulled out of the air.

Land tier fees should only cover the costs associated with landownership. That is, the tier payments to LLs, the requisite reserve fee and perhaps a portion of the civil servants salaries.

All other services which are provided to CDS citizens should be approved by the citizens (either directly by citizen mandates or via the RA), be budgeted for, and then paid for by a user fee, set within the budget process. That is, services such as the web portal, judiciary, civil service salaries, event promotions, and whatever other silly schemes the politicians devise.