Saturday August 18, 8.30-10AM SL time.
Thanks to all that particiapted in a very good discussion. Transcript posted below:
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Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (145, 179, 172)
Meeting on 2007-08-18
Those present:
Bromo Ivory is in the chair.
Pelanor Eldrich: no
Dnate Mars: that is why
Bromo Ivory: Touch the recorder please
Bromo Ivory: I reset it
Dnate Mars: ctrl-alt-D
Dnate Mars: then you can ctrl-alt-shift-MINUS
Pelanor Eldrich: ahhhh. thx!
Bromo Ivory: I think we can begin
Dnate Mars has indicated consent to be recorded.
Bromo Ivory: I posted a thread to the forums to catch people who were
unable to make it in world -
Bromo Ivory: And I plan on having another meeting after this one, but I
would like your thoughts on citizenship in general - the types of
things we might be able to do to make CDS more inclusive - or not - and any
issues along these lines.
Bromo Ivory: Hello Sudane!
Sudane Erato: hi 
Pelanor Eldrich: Hi Sudane!
Bromo Ivory: THe commission meeting is starting
Sudane Erato: great
Bromo Ivory: I put the portion of the constitution in the notecard
giver
Sudane Erato: hehe... a better version
Sudane Erato: kk
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Bromo Ivory: So ... any thoughts on how citizenship might be expanded
or not?
Sudane Erato: i mostly have a few concerns that I'd like to express
Bromo Ivory: OK
Sudane Erato: since each election
Sudane Erato: folks look to me
Sudane Erato: to say who is a citizen, and who is not
Sudane Erato: hmm
Sudane Erato: the fact of having people participate, by paying
Sudane Erato: not that the money is even important
Sudane Erato: but that it is an actual "act" of participation...
Sudane Erato: that only that individual can do
Sudane Erato: seems to me significant
Sudane Erato: the problem particularly with the NGO qualified citizens
Sudane Erato: is that no one has any idea whether that consider
themselves citizens or not
Sudane Erato: except for the person, the official of the NGO
Sudane Erato: who says to me, or to whomever...
Sudane Erato: yes, that person is a citizen
Sudane Erato: i have no further way of knowing
Sudane Erato: that seems a very serious problem with any system
Pelanor Eldrich: yes
Bromo Ivory nods
Sudane Erato: which does not involve SOME kind of direct participation
of the individual
Sudane Erato: ned
Sudane Erato: end
Bromo Ivory: (I prefer ned)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Bromo Ivory: So, Sudane - are you saying that with the way NGO's are
run, it has become difficult to see who is a citizen and who is not?
Pelanor Eldrich: It should be simplified and very cut and dried IMO.
The EO should not have to make citizenship "judgements" every election. I
think the new citizen should take an oath, not be banned/stripped of
citizenship by the SC and have the tax account paid up to date. It
should be as simple as running a report (ideally). I'm moving away from the
idea of a NGO sponsoring (see forum). Maybe an org (civil service,
guild) can pay a small wage for valued work and the recipient of those
funds could then spend them on citizenship tax (or whatever else they
desire). I think the group land law makes Sudane's life difficult. I'd like
to keep all the rights and benefits of group land, but none of the
headaches. Citizenship tax should solve that.
Bromo Ivory: And that some sort of participation needs to be expressed
- similar to the payment of tier?
Sudane Erato: i'm saying that the "fact" of a person's citizenship...
is simply the word of another citizen
Pelanor Eldrich: That's no good IMO
Bromo Ivory: Yes - I think the payment - the choice to pay - of an
individual is a very important event
Pelanor Eldrich: Take an oath, not be banned, pay.
Sudane Erato: Michel has been very adamant against that idea
Pelanor Eldrich: ?
Bromo Ivory: Yes otherwise it can be very ambiguous - and the fears
expressed by Pat and Jon will be realized.
Sudane Erato: thats why he left last term
Bromo Ivory: Over the NGO citizenship "trust me he's a citizen"?
Pelanor Eldrich: I think Michel's beef was no letting in landless
citizens.
Pelanor Eldrich: *not
Sudane Erato: yes.... he felt our proposal unduly restricted
citizenship
Bromo Ivory: He is an avid supporter of landless citizens - and I think
he got upset that this idea was cut out
Sudane Erato: so.... the idea of a simple tax paying citizen would fly
with everyone...
Sudane Erato: basically as suggested by Gwyn?
Pelanor Eldrich: I think it would make your life much easier Sudane.
Bromo Ivory: Well Jon and Pat have expressed concern on the forums
Sudane Erato: oh yes!
Sudane Erato: but making my life easier is not the core issue here
Pelanor Eldrich: I have posted to Jon and Pat about measures which
could control the influx of landless citizens.
Pelanor Eldrich: (see forums)
Bromo Ivory: Well in this case citizenship would be easy to determine -
did someone pay thier fees or not.
Sudane Erato: yes...
Pelanor Eldrich: Right:
Pelanor Eldrich: 1)Take the oath
Pelanor Eldrich: 2)Not be banned
Sudane Erato: i don't share the anxiety about landless citizens
Pelanor Eldrich: 3)Citizenship tax paid up to date
Pelanor Eldrich: that's it that's
Pelanor Eldrich: all
Bromo Ivory: I don't either - I do view it as a quasi immigration issue
- if you strip away the idea of "cheating"
Pelanor Eldrich: Now if they don't pay property tax...well that's
another story, they could remain a citizen and lose land.
Sudane Erato: you mean the alts problem?
Bromo Ivory: Yes
Dnate Mars: I have to ask a very simple question, why do we want more
people to join the CDS?
Pelanor Eldrich: Hell yes
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: we want money!! )
Pelanor Eldrich: Hell yes
Sudane Erato:
Dnate Mars: if we take out the money and land issues, why do we need to
expand faster then we can grow in regards to land
Bromo Ivory: Well I think by expanding the options beyonf landholding
we would have the ability to expand a touch quicker - and be able to
retain interested parties.
Sudane Erato: i feel that the analog of the CDS is the USA
Pelanor Eldrich: The identity issue if a electoral reform question.
There are tools I posted about. Open ID, payment on file avatars, avatars
of a certain age, RL disclosure are all tools.
Sudane Erato: the USA grows because people want to come here
Bromo Ivory: Yes - I would like to be able to retain people who are
interested
Sudane Erato: yes
Bromo Ivory: in CDS and democracy
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: interested enough in our ideas, and participation, that
they will pay a small monthly fee
Dnate Mars: The things I still can't rap my mind around is why would
people pay us so that they can vote in an election and submit bills?
Pelanor Eldrich: Right, and let's say they're inactive and have paid
several months up front. The downside of that is what? We have more
treasury revenue, it's a win-win.
Sudane Erato: maybe to be a part of the community?
Sudane Erato: social networking?
Sudane Erato: part of a club?
Bromo Ivory: I am thinking well beyond government - I think we will
have a more active community
Sudane Erato: pre-payment will soon no longer be possible
Dnate Mars: are those really good reasons to have people want to join?
Pelanor Eldrich: That's Claude's key question. What's the value
proposition? Belonging to the community, voting, using a legal system, working
within the guild, running for office. I expect the key thing might be
"qualify to buy CDS land".
Bromo Ivory: FOr a lot of folks this is and should be a bit beyond the
government here
Bromo Ivory: Well we also build up our social capital so to speak.
Bromo Ivory: We don't have a lot of it at the moment - though it does
seem to be picking up a bit.
Pelanor Eldrich: Ah, Sudane, you don't want to take pre-payment? I
realize it's a bit of a headache. But financially it'd be nice for the CDS
to get extra cash up front, no?
Dnate Mars: isn't that what we really are? Isn't that what sets us
apart from the 1000s of other communities in SL, the government?
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes, the Democratic part of the community.
Sudane Erato: its nice when you get it... and then not so nice during
the months it applies to
Bromo Ivory: Yes it does - but it should not be the ONLY thing
Dnate Mars: plus, isn't there a new linden only payment system coming
up?
Sudane Erato: yes... thats what it will be
Sudane Erato: but at this point, only one person pays in Paypal
Dnate Mars: when will that be in place, any ideas?
Sudane Erato: hopefully next month
Sudane Erato: I have to write some descriptions and explanations for
everyone
Dnate Mars: sorry, for going off topic...
Pelanor Eldrich: While the nice thing there is that it *does* force a
citizen to do *something* (pay tax) once a month in the CDS.
Sudane Erato: yes
Dnate Mars: I guess maybe we need 2 groups of people then, one to run
the "government" and the other to run the land
Bromo Ivory: Hi Gwyn!
Pelanor Eldrich: And you don't need to keep as detailed past account
history...*but* we give up interest free loans.
Sudane Erato: hehe... yes
Pelanor Eldrich: I always thought we were a bit strange, how many US
citizens want to pay 10 years of future tax up front in advance... LOL
Sudane Erato: haha... yes
Sudane Erato: but if the tax was only 1 dollar /month
Sudane Erato: i think it is different
Sudane Erato: the microlot people, it is only 7 cents/month
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi
Sudane Erato: hey Gwyn
Dnate Mars: hi gwyn
Pelanor Eldrich: So I'm inclinded to agree with you Sudane, it
especially gets complicated when, due to RA and land purchases/sales, a
citizen's bill changes month to month. Hi Gwyn!
Sudane Erato: well, as I said, the issue here is not my workload
Sudane Erato: it is a clear definition of citizenship... the voter
rolls
Dnate Mars: What is currently the cheapest 128sqm plot?
Sudane Erato: you mean the tier?
Dnate Mars: yes
Sudane Erato: about 1.50/month
Sudane Erato: a bit less
Pelanor Eldrich: Jon and Pat (I believe) feel that this might be too
low for new landless citizens. Perhaps they'd like the "floor" to be
raised to another amount. This, however, would affect current and future
citizens.
Dnate Mars: I just thought of something, for everyone here right now,
there was an upfront commitment, why would new citizens get to avoid
this?
Bromo Ivory: I think the idea of a "deposit" might be a good idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn has heard Bromo's nice 'deposit' idea yesterday
Alessandro Nakamori: sorry, chinzia, did i land on you?
Dnate Mars: Something to lose if they break the laws...
Sudane Erato: hmmm
Bromo Ivory: It might make accounting more difficult - but could be
used towards a land purchase
Dnate Mars: otherwise what would stop people from joining and do
nothing but grief?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Bromo
Sudane Erato: well, no one has so far
Pelanor Eldrich: All judicial sanctions are backed by threat of ban.
Bromo Ivory: lol ... doesn't seem to stop anyone now!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, griefing is easy to deal with
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Pel says...
Bromo Ivory: Yes - the ban is the issue
Pelanor Eldrich: It's the big stick that makes all the other little
sticks work without escrow.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (btw, Pel, you've got more than 5 signatures )
Sudane Erato: yay Pel
Bromo Ivory: COngrats Pel!
Pelanor Eldrich: Thx Gywn, zOMG now I have to watch what I say. I
better get it all out there before I'm formally sworn in. Thanks everyone!
(Thx Gywn).
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Bromo Ivory: So we think the ban is the main force of law
Dnate Mars: the transcript will be posted, correct? I must leave
Bromo Ivory: Yes I will post it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, me too ? sadly. I was just waiting for a
customer to come in 
... and he just arrived
Pelanor Eldrich: It's our maximum sanction. All the lesser penalties
are effective because if you don't pay the fine (or whatever), we'll ban
you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'm sorry guys, I'll try to be back later if
you're still around!
Bromo Ivory: OK
Pelanor Eldrich: Np, thanks for stopping by Gwyn and Dnate.
Sudane Erato: bye all
Sudane Erato: well, that was sudden
Pelanor Eldrich:
Bromo Ivory: Yes - but I am glad they both came and voiced concerns
Pelanor Eldrich: BTW I think we need a name for our minimum plot of
land (currently 128m2). Like "parcel" or something.
Bromo Ivory nods
Sudane Erato: yes... i agree
Bromo Ivory: SOmething like "minimum polot"
Bromo Ivory: "plot"
Pelanor Eldrich: I got a 7 plot parcel next to da bridge...
Pelanor Eldrich: (for instance).
Bromo Ivory nods
Bromo Ivory: Hi Michel
Michel Manen: hello
Michel Manen: hi sudane.. pel
Pelanor Eldrich: Hi
Sudane Erato: hi
Bromo Ivory: So ... I htink the concerns I have heard are: 1. Alts
Pelanor Eldrich: BTW some of these issues have been raised on the forum
thread (it's a good read).
Pelanor Eldrich: (sory)
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: can i join you ?
Bromo Ivory: Yes - have a seat and don't forget to touch the recorder
Michel Manen: done smiles
Sudane Erato: oh.... and I must go now too 
Bromo Ivory: Ok Sudane - see you!
Sudane Erato: sorry...
Michel Manen: ah
Michel Manen: take care
Sudane Erato: well, I had my say, in any case
Bromo Ivory: What do you guys think about a deposit - "citizenship"
bond
Pelanor Eldrich: Bye Sudane
Bromo Ivory: See you Sudane!
Rose Springvale: hi kids
Michel Manen: hi rose 
just in time to take sudane warm seat
Bromo Ivory: Hi Rose - have a seat- and don't forget to touch the
recorder
Rose Springvale has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: oh Rose... it wasn't your arrival that causes me to
leave!!
Rose Springvale: uh huh suuuuure
Sudane Erato: hehe
Bromo Ivory: "This sim ain't big enough for the two of us!"
Sudane Erato: haha
Michel Manen: lol
Sudane Erato: bye
Rose Springvale: no, sudane and i need a whole grid :
Rose Springvale: byeeee
Michel Manen: rose where u just cooking? grins
Sudane Erato: haha
Pelanor Eldrich: Bruno, so that's an escrowed bond that can be used buy
land in the future? You forfeit it if ruled to do so by the SC, right.
Wouldn't it require then, all current citizens to pay it?
Rose Springvale: sorry to drop in like this, just wanted to participate
briefly
Bromo Ivory: No problem - people are popping in and out
Bromo Ivory: It might - but the citizens have their land
Bromo Ivory: so it might not
Rose Springvale: okay, whenever there is a good time to say my piece.
let me know
Bromo Ivory: Its like having to buy insurance -or- post a bond
Pelanor Eldrich: So it's a landless citizen bond. Don't worry Rose,
anytime is great.
Michel Manen: well i can wait let rose go ahead
Bromo Ivory: Rose - pipe right in!
Rose Springvale: lol
Rose Springvale: no i can wait my turn
Michel Manen: pipe away rose
Michel Manen: noo
Bromo Ivory hands talking stick to Rose
Michel Manen: there is no turn
Michel Manen: everyone knows what i think hahahah
Rose Springvale: okay, i don't know where you've been or much of the
background.. my eyes glaze over with version after version of the law
Rose Springvale: but here is my two cents. As a major landowner in the
cds, i am wary of non land owning citizens making "rules" that apply to
land
Rose Springvale: and i am very much opposed to increased "taxes" for
citizenship... meaning i am not opposed to growth or the need for
additional funds that add to the quality of life in the sims
Rose Springvale: but I don't want people who pay $1 us per month
deciding for example, what i can and cannot do on my land... not when i'm
paying a hundred times that for the privelege of doing so
Rose Springvale: so
Rose Springvale: my proposal is indeed two classes of citizens
Rose Springvale: one class which can vote on anything BUT land use in
sims that have been purchased subject to current landholding
requirements and covenants
Rose Springvale: and the other which can deal with those issues as well
Rose Springvale: and
Rose Springvale: to the extent that we have minimum and maximum sm
requirements
Rose Springvale: it seems to me that the ONLY fair thing is to make ALL
land citizen ship equal
Rose Springvale: so that if 256 sm supports citizen ship
Rose Springvale: if i own 2560 sm
Rose Springvale: and i want to have ten people in my group
Rose Springvale: then i should be able to
Pelanor Eldrich: interesting.
Rose Springvale: not that i intend to
Rose Springvale: but the point is that if you allow a minimum sm to
support citizenry..
Rose Springvale: we all shoul get the benefit of that
Pelanor Eldrich: Rose, under current group land ownership law couldn't
you have 10 folks in your group? Of course you'd still have to convince
them to vote your way.
Bromo Ivory: Well the moinimum is 128m^2 so you could do 20!
Bromo Ivory: As long as the group memebrs were citizens to beghin with
Pelanor Eldrich: Ah, right.
Rose Springvale: Pel, i was led to believe that if they are not
original purchasers of the land, joining my group doesn't confer citizenship
Pelanor Eldrich: You're right.
Rose Springvale: so to the extent that we confer voting rights on
"partners"... let's keep it fair across the board
Rose Springvale: the other option is separating citzenship from land
entireley
Rose Springvale: which has some merit as well in an experiement like
this
Bromo Ivory: I had proposed a citizenship bond required if a citizen
was not landholding
Pelanor Eldrich: Rose, is there a minimum sm equivalent you'd be
comfortable with. 128m2 is $1.50 (I think). BTW people can already vote on
land issues with a $1.50 commitment. I understand the concern if 50 new
$1.50citizens showed up next week.
Pelanor Eldrich: Rose, we'd liketo separate land from citizenship.
Rose Springvale: well,that's why i'd like to see two levels
Rose Springvale: it would be easy for the small land holders to decide
on a 100 percent tier increase for example
Rose Springvale: they go from 2 bucks to four
Bromo Ivory: It could hapopen now
Rose Springvale: but for those of us actually supporting the sims with
real dollars...
Rose Springvale: yes bromo, its a problem
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes, although "let's double our land taxes to oust the
rich" might not be popular overall.
Rose Springvale: and we don't want to go to a sytem of beign able to
buy votes, nor should we be punished because we invest here
Rose Springvale: Pel
Pelanor Eldrich: I agree with that.
Rose Springvale: the"rich" are invested here with more than money
Bromo Ivory: Yes - this is why I was thinking of putting in a bond
Rose Springvale: or some of us wold have left by now
Pelanor Eldrich: I agree with everything you're saying Rose. I'd just
like to decouple land from citizenship and addressing your concerns
without, ideally, creating a second class citizenry.
Rose Springvale: so i gues si'm in favor of local rule for property,
determined by investors in the sims...Land use i suppose
Rose Springvale: and let all the other CDS things be open to alll
Rose Springvale: subject to whatever criteria make sense
Pelanor Eldrich: What's a min CDS citizenship tax you'd support. I
think it's currently $1.50, we could go to $3.
Rose Springvale: are you adding it to the tier?
Pelanor Eldrich: No
Bromo Ivory: Nope
Rose Springvale: if it has the right to vote on how i use my land, 20
us per month lol
Pelanor Eldrich: lol
Bromo Ivory: haha
Rose Springvale: i know it sounds excessive.. but look at what i pay!
Bromo Ivory: Well then I don't have to right to vote with my measley
NFS plot
Michel Manen: what i was proposing is a floor in terns of contributions
below which no citizen, landed or landelss could fall
Bromo Ivory: L$707/mo
Bromo Ivory: LOL
Michel Manen: let s say $! US per week
Rose Springvale: bromo.. see i think the point is that land use is
different than all the other things we argue about
Michel Manen: for arguments sake
Bromo Ivory: Yes
Michel Manen: this would entitle you to a certain amount lof land
Bromo Ivory: I think we may need to tease out land use protections
Rose Springvale: well, that's my point
Pelanor Eldrich: The DPU has always been interested in local rule, esp.
for things such as sim land use. However as currently written, our
Federal Chancellor is the final arbiter of land use.
Rose Springvale: we have a planning commision
Bromo Ivory: But this is an issue that would be here regardless of
citizenship expansion
Rose Springvale: excetp that when you expand citizenry... i'll pick on
CARE because you guys know i love you...
Bromo Ivory: 
Rose Springvale: CARE can go out to all its' well off friends and stack
the election
Michel Manen: LOL!
Rose Springvale: and then they can come and raise my taxes!!
Michel Manen: hahahaha!!
Rose Springvale: or
Pelanor Eldrich: Right, so it's:
Bromo Ivory needs the names of these firends
Pelanor Eldrich: 1)Alts and election fraud
Pelanor Eldrich: 2)An influx of newbs telling landowners what to do
Rose Springvale: one thing i really want soemone to answer for me
sometime Pel
Rose Springvale: is what soemone really gets by "taking over" the CDS
lol
Michel Manen: hhahaha
Michel Manen: me too actually
Rose Springvale: i mean .. other than raising taxes to buy more sims?
Michel Manen: since im told i want to that
Rose Springvale: what is the point?
Bromo Ivory: Well, then MIchel - whats the prize? Argumentative CDS
people?
Rose Springvale: lol
Bromo Ivory: lol
Rose Springvale: bromo
Rose Springvale: he gets that regardless!
Pelanor Eldrich: I think you'd get a world of migranes.
Bromo Ivory: Why buy the cow ...?
Rose Springvale: lol
Rose Springvale: okay. that's all i have to say
Bromo Ivory: Those I thought were very good points
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes
Rose Springvale: though you guys COULD comment on my theme costume!
Pelanor Eldrich: Love the hair
Michel Manen: i did!!
Bromo Ivory: Apron?
Rose Springvale: lol thanks
Rose Springvale: dirndl!
Michel Manen: hahaha
Michel Manen: you know what that means?
Rose Springvale: don't even go there michel
Michel Manen: lol ok
Rose Springvale: Thanks for giving me a chance to participate Broomo
Pelanor Eldrich: So how do we protect large landholders?
Michel Manen: we shoot them
Rose Springvale: lol ....
Bromo Ivory: Rose - I am glad you came!
Michel Manen: sorry this is recorded!
Michel Manen: i forgot!
Michel Manen: hahaha
Bromo Ivory: MIchel you are therefore shooting yourself
Pelanor Eldrich: In the foot...
Bromo Ivory nods
Rose Springvale: i am not feeling threatened.. i just don't want
genuine concerns to be lost in paranoia
Michel Manen: i have a question rose
Rose Springvale: i dont' WANT to be in a position the i feel i have to
leave
Rose Springvale: yes?
Bromo Ivory: I thought they were important - landowners need to be
respected.
Rose Springvale: i think of it as investment bromo
Bromo Ivory: Esp big ones
Michel Manen: right now we have a large number of landed citizens
owning lots of 128 and 256 m2. even 488 m2
Rose Springvale: yes
Michel Manen: their monthy tier is quite modest
Rose Springvale nods
Michel Manen: how is this different from landless citizens paying more
or less the same monthly citizenship fee as these peole pay tier?
Rose Springvale: well, michel
Rose Springvale: it isn't. but that is what i bought into, so that's
fair
Pelanor Eldrich: We have a pretty good record of protecting private
property. Having said that, we *cannot* have a doubling of the population
every 6 months. Any more than that could, for example, change things so
quickly we could end up with a fascist or Stalinist state.
Bromo Ivory: When the US colonies changed the vote away from landowners
- I am sure similar arguments were addressed - and in SL the
difference is that it is easy to leave
Rose Springvale: i don't want to go to a system where large landowners
have more say than small
Pelanor Eldrich: Still, for the sake of argument, we're worried about
large numbers of people showing up.
Bromo Ivory: Well Pel - I doubt very much we would do that - since the
key to that sort of state is that you actually have to be able to
threaten someone - and you can't here
Pelanor Eldrich: We've *never* had large numbers of people showing up.
Bromo Ivory: And the residents have the ultimate out - they can leave -
and a bad government therefore couldnt' exist for very long
Rose Springvale: but i like knowing that everyone has a stake in what
they are trying to regulate
Rose Springvale: but pel
Pelanor Eldrich: I think we should open the doors pretty wide and see
if *anyone* wants in at all. If too many do, we can use some of the
tools I posted in the forums to limit growth.
Bromo Ivory: WOuld a citizenship bond be a good safeguard?
Rose Springvale: that's like saying i can sell stock whenever i want,
even if it's not worth much
Bromo Ivory: We may need soemthing at first to see if this would work
Rose Springvale: and as a former enron stockholder, that stings lol
Michel Manen: lol
Michel Manen: sorry
Rose Springvale: guys, i have to go.. rl maintenance issues with
landholding
Bromo Ivory: Ouch! But I think supposing a Stalinist regime is around
the corner is "horribilizing" rather than looking at it
Pelanor Eldrich: We have to find a way to protect the landholders from
newbie covenant insanity.
Rose Springvale: i'll be gald to talk later... and Pel
Bromo Ivory: Ok Rose - thanks!
Rose Springvale: whatever party the voters want wins
Rose Springvale: in a democracy
Rose Springvale: even if it is stalinist
Pelanor Eldrich: Thanks Rose.
Rose Springvale: so we can't say we want democracy
Bromo Ivory: Except the mechanisms of Stalinist is imposisble in SL
Rose Springvale: but only if they vote the way we like
Bromo Ivory: Prison camps, mass executions and so on
Michel Manen: ya right
Rose Springvale: and that's why it' important to separate the assets
and the ideology
Michel Manen: based on Beathan's criminal code and Traseon Act
Rose Springvale: lol
Pelanor Eldrich: We want democracy. If the electorate rolls back the
consitution and enpowers an autocrat, so be it, I'd leave.
Bromo Ivory: And most everyone would
Michel Manen: oh come on. as if thats going to happen..
Rose Springvale: okay, have fun with this
Bromo Ivory: See you Rose!
Pelanor Eldrich: See you rose.
Rose Springvale: do try to keep paranoia at bay guys.. we are all here
to be democrats, not imperialists
Michel Manen: of course
Rose Springvale: even michel
Michel Manen: before you go rose
Michel Manen: one more question
Pelanor Eldrich: I don't think it's likely Michel. If we triple the
population in 6 months, we could see quite a series of changes.
Rose Springvale: yes? and the pol guy is pounding on the door lol
Rose Springvale: yes?
Pelanor Eldrich: Pool Boy? This sounds like Wisteria lane.
Rose Springvale: shhh
Bromo Ivory: Yes the make up of the electorate would change - though I
seriously doubt we will have that
Michel Manen: we were thining at CARE to have a resident category with
no voting rights and a citizen category for those owning land or paying
fees with voting rights
Michel Manen: is that more or less like youe double citizneshuip idea?
Bromo Ivory: /.me nods
Rose Springvale: not sure what the point woudl be michel
Michel Manen: well
Rose Springvale: i'm sorry .. i'll be back
Michel Manen: you said you wanted 2 classes of citizens
Michel Manen: and wew're saying lets call one residents
Pelanor Eldrich: I don't. Rose proferred as a soluton for protecting
the landholders.
Michel Manen: well
Michel Manen: right now the big landowners are not protected from small
ones hahaha
Bromo Ivory: Yes - she wants to make sure those without land interests
don't raise her tier fees and make it more difficult
Michel Manen: if protection were needed in thte first place
Michel Manen: which i dont agree with
Pelanor Eldrich: Riggh Michel, howver microplot holders are few. In
theory we could have many more landless citizens who would have more
political influence than the current microplot holders. It's no different
than starting a new sim, really.
Michel Manen: yes
Bromo Ivory: Yes - the make up of the electorate is bound to change as
you add SIMs or just have more people
Bromo Ivory: And I do not fear this
Bromo Ivory: But some do
Pelanor Eldrich: Nor I. Everyone on the RA is younger than I am.
Bromo Ivory: Really?
Bromo Ivory: In SL
Bromo Ivory: yes
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes
Pelanor Eldrich: Maybe in RL too.
Michel Manen: come on-- the us today is not exactly what it was in 1776
in terms of population make -up and congrsss make up is it?
Bromo Ivory: It is very different
Michel Manen: i mean thats the whole point
Pelanor Eldrich: So I have no problem with change
Michel Manen: are we going to be such control freaks and worry that
people who join later have a different vision from the "founding alts"and
do everyithng to limit growth
Pelanor Eldrich: As long as we have some basic control and the
community doesn't dissolve.
Michel Manen: or are we going to devise a system with some inbuilt
safeguards that will allow for growth?
Bromo Ivory: We do have the constitution
Michel Manen: yes pel
Pelanor Eldrich: I agree with you Michel.
Michel Manen: totally agree with you
Bromo Ivory: But if you tease out the issues you see a few things:
Bromo Ivory: 1. Packing the SIm with alts
Pelanor Eldrich: I posted about all this on the forums last night.
Michel Manen: thats a red herring
Bromo Ivory: 2. Buying citizenships to overwhealm the voting booth
Michel Manen: it can be dione now
Pelanor Eldrich: I feel we should really open it up and be ready with
controls if we get more immigration than we want.
Michel Manen: yes
Bromo Ivory: 3. Landowner rights being changed and making it hard for
larger owners
Bromo Ivory: Pel, I think that is the best wy to try this thing out
Michel Manen: well while i sympathise
Michel Manen: with large landowners
Michel Manen: hehehe
Bromo Ivory: We may need 1 or 2 safeguards right away as long as we
don't kill it
Bromo Ivory: with them
Michel Manen: even today size doesnt matter here hahaha
Michel Manen: so small landholders are by far a majority in CDS
Michel Manen: and they can well decide today to raise taxes should they
want to
Michel Manen: now i agree that with an influx of landless citizens
thiswould be even easier
Michel Manen: and that we need safe guards
Michel Manen: BUT
Michel Manen: what we propose is really not super different from what
exists today on this issue
Michel Manen: but anyway
Michel Manen: the point here is to hear what people think
Pelanor Eldrich: Right, I think it's important that we safeguard
property rights.
Michel Manen: not for me to push CARes point of view... too much hahah
Pelanor Eldrich: Why don't we try to cook up a PCA?
Michel Manen: so i think Bromo has the rigght idea
Michel Manen: a PCA?
Bromo Ivory: PCA?
Bromo Ivory: I think we need to incorprate as many ideas form the other
factions and citizens as possible and still havea coherent piece of
reform
Pelanor Eldrich: proposed consitutional amendment
Pelanor Eldrich: Article VI
Bromo Ivory: Oh - yes - we probably should put something together and
have a meeting to discuss this.
Bromo Ivory: DO you want to try to draft soemthjing up , Pel?
Pelanor Eldrich: We *must* have faction consent, or you'll never get
the 2/3rds vote.
Michel Manen: yes
Michel Manen: well
Bromo Ivory: Yes we need all 3 facitons to like it
Bromo Ivory: to enough of a degree
Bromo Ivory: 5 of 7 required
Michel Manen: bromo you have right approach
Michel Manen: make a list of major issues
Michel Manen: and lets see how they can be addressed
Bromo Ivory: Pel really summarized them on the forums nicely.
Michel Manen: in a way that makes sense for them
Michel Manen: now
Michel Manen: the question is this
Michel Manen: some people will say
Michel Manen: did you consider leavign the system unchageed?
Michel Manen: or were you biased towards change fro mthe start?
Michel Manen: so we need to address that
Michel Manen: are there merits in leavign the system as it is?
Michel Manen: wew need to get input from citizens on this too
Bromo Ivory: Yes - I agree - and I do beleive that we need more input
on why one would want to remain as it is.
Bromo Ivory: I have a conflict that has come up
Michel Manen: yes. The Report should say.. we considered leavign the
system as it is - this is the feed back we got - this is the conclusion
we arrived at- andd this is why - and this is the citizen support
available
Bromo Ivory: SO I will have to go
Michel Manen: ok bromo
Michel Manen: thank you so mjuch for all your hard workl
Bromo Ivory: So I would like to bring the meeting to a close
Michel Manen: Pel can u stay 5 mins plz?
Bromo Ivory: Thanks to everyone who came! I think this was a productive
discussion.
Bromo Ivory: Michel - I have to turn off the recorder
Pelanor Eldrich: Sure
Michel Manen: yes this si on unrelatedm atters
Bromo Ivory: OK - good. I will end it now - thanks to you guys and
everyone who took time to give inpout thus far.
The meeting closed at 10:2 Linden time.