Alpine Meadows - public/private land ratio and proposals

Forum to discuss and coordinate the expansion of the CDS and the redevelopment of existing territories.

Moderator: SC Moderators

User avatar
Moon Adamant
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 1:26 pm

Alpine Meadows - public/private land ratio and proposals

Post by Moon Adamant »

Hello all,

As agreed upon last Guild Meeting, i am calling a discussion on the public/private land ratio for Alpine Meadows.

Just a few comments for consideration and lauching up the discussion:

First of all, and as an useful comparison, notice that the ratios for the other sims are:

NFS: ~40% public land
CN: 10% public land

Public land falls completely on the budget of the CDS. Plans were made for CN that some public structures such as the theatre could be rented out - but it never amounted to anything. So, a large amount of public land makes the sim more costly to the overall community.

On the other hand, minimum public land is always needed. Consider that unlike some mainland sims, our sims have an urban planning. This means that roads, some landscape features, etc, will have to consume land that can't be sold.

Also, a policy of public events can demand the existence of public space to hold them - as also a reserve of prims to support the events. Think for example on the Xmas decorations at NFS. Mind though that this primmage can be vaccuumed out of unsold plots, as has been done always, the issue being then it is a bit of a floating quantity.

A word now on prim plots: it is possible (and it has been done in both CN and NFS) that land for landscape be actually sold as prim plots. This 'nature' land is defended by covenants that forbid the owners to delete the landscape elements that are present in it. This is an useful trick that allows us to preserve a landscape on the sim - and still sell it. The same is true of water areas, they can become prim plots as well.

Specifically as regards Alpine Meadows, the original plan considered a minimal amount of public land - that needed only for roads and water features. The exact amount isn't known at this time, since we are building the parcel map, and therefore do not know yet how much area the said features will take.

It has been proposed as an addition to the plan that a public structure, a Monastery, be set in the sim as well - as a focus of interest and events space for the sim.

I would like to tie the two discussions together now, namely, i think it would be useful for the discussion that the Monastery proposal could be defined in terms of area/prims. If this has been done already (i can't find the thread...), sorry!, please repost it here. :)

User avatar
Arria Perreault
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:14 pm

Post by Arria Perreault »

I think that we did not discuss in detail of that question. I have tried to figure out how will be this monastery. You can see here my proposal:

Because it is on a sim between a Middle-Age bavarian town and a roman city, I think that the style may be roman.

Map:
[img:18ornlml]http://www.be-virtual.ch/blog/images/monastery.jpg[/img:18ornlml]

I have indicate possible measures.

South wall:
[img:18ornlml]http://www.be-virtual.ch/blog/images/mo ... -front.jpg[/img:18ornlml]

I can estimate that we need 1000 prims (including prims for furnitures and activities). We can negociate.

Dnate Mars
Veteran debater
Veteran debater
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 9:32 am

Post by Dnate Mars »

Is that Scriptorium to be used as a open source library?

User avatar
Tanoujin Milestone
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 pm

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

Building 60*40= 2400 sqm; covered area supports 550 prims
(with 4m offset: 68*48= 3264 sqm; support 747 prims)

Prim usage ca 1000; needs 4370 sqm
Prim banking/additional land: 1970 sqm (1106)

right?

supplement (hmhmhm, i loved to be a lurker):
about 1/16 sim (6,25%),
init cost 104,69 US$;
18,44US$/month maintenance

If public: 76 Citizens -> 1,38 US$ init, 25 ct/month
tending down with pop growth

If private: the Order of St. Colomban?

Last edited by Tanoujin Milestone on Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Arria Perreault
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:14 pm

Post by Arria Perreault »

[quote="Dnate Mars":1fto8g5v]Is that Scriptorium to be used as a open source library?[/quote:1fto8g5v]

I could be. Monasteries are the places where a part of the knowledge of the Antiquity was keeped and copied. Almost all the texts that we have from greek and latin authors come from medieval manuscripts and these manuscripts come from monasteries. So it would be a consequent place to place an open source library.
It depend also of the persons who are developping the project of the open source library. I don't where they intend to install the library.

The main use of the monastery is a welcome area for new citizen and newbies. This can be done in the cloister, the central part with the internal garden.

Rose Springvale
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:29 am

Post by Rose Springvale »

Personally, i think we have enough public land in the sims we already have, especially for "static" use, like museums and welcome areas. If we are going to put a public structure in place, I'd prefer it be something more active, such as a "lodge" for rafters, skiers, riders etc. that gives visitors something to "do" in the sim, rather than just look around.

I'm not opposed to a group building a monastery if they wish, and think it fits with the propose theme well, just opposed to it being public. As a private structure, they can buy as many lots as they want for prims, and conduct it as they wish, just as many of us have done in CN and NFS.

Here is a monastery already in place in a similar terrain, with about the same elevation drop from monastery to village structure. Note the agriculural feel of the village, mill, etc.

Valley of Felix Meritis, Lill Burn Valley (116, 97, 34)

User avatar
Moon Adamant
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 825
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 1:26 pm

Post by Moon Adamant »

Arria and all, thanks a lot for the input!

From my reckonings, we're talking here of 4.376 m2, which corresponds to 6,67% of the total land area.

Bearing in mind Rose's comments - is there a way to join the two proposals?

I am thinking that nowadays a lot of monasteries and religious houses around do work as lodges for visitors, often in the high-class tourism market. Could it be possible that we joined the public library AND the lodge that Rose suggests? I am looking at Arria's plan and seeing that it has cell-rooms. Could they work like that?

Your comments, please :)

User avatar
Arria Perreault
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:14 pm

Post by Arria Perreault »

[quote="Moon Adamant":34b3ugy0]I am thinking that nowadays a lot of monasteries and religious houses around do work as lodges for visitors, often in the high-class tourism market. Could it be possible that we joined the public library AND the lodge that Rose suggests? I am looking at Arria's plan and seeing that it has cell-rooms. Could they work like that?[/quote:34b3ugy0]

The monasteries of the alpine area has played and still today the role of welcome area for visitors, walkers. The most famous example is the Monastery of the Grand Saint-Bernard. The monks and their dogs carried help to the lost travellers.

I have told above that the monastery is a welcome area, for CDS citizen, newbies and also for the visitor of the sim. I have imagined the welcome area in the central part of the monastery, the cloister. The role of the rooms is not yet clear for me and can be used for that purpose. I have imagined that we could also rent this rooms to people, as it is in some monasteries in RL.

I cannot imagine a CDS sim without a public place. Without public places, this sim will be only residential. During the winter , it will be a luxury ski resort like Gstaad, Zermatt or Verbier. At the end, we will build skiing ways... Please remember that above, you have a roman city.

We can discuss the way to finance the monastery. Tan's calculation shows that it is not a possible to support for the community.
Another way would be to reequilibrate the ratio of public/private places. Is it thinkable to transform some places in NFS and sell them? We should have an average ratio and absolutely avoid only residential sims. If people come to CDS, it is probably because it is not "residential only".

User avatar
Desmond Shang
Passionate Protagonist
Passionate Protagonist
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:56 pm

Post by Desmond Shang »

I gently suggest something: 'double prim' the sim by setting the object multiplier of the region to two.

That will accomplish the following:

- Leave greater than 50% of the sim as public, protected land to be developed by your sim architects

- Add pleasant buffers to the 40-some % (areawise) of private land in the sim,

- Ensure that by far most of the prims are in private (budget-positive!) hands (in my sims, typically 97%)

- The public area will *think* it has over half a sim's worth of prims, so if you are covenanted for it (i.e. given permission by the landed) you can 'borrow' all unused prims from residents to the public area for say, a few hours or a few days simply by setting out more stuff in the common area for temporary events, fairs, contests, what-have-you.

With typical resident usage putting most occupied sims at roughly 10k - 12k prims used, one could probably 'borrow' 1000-2000 prims full time and it likely wouldn't even be noticed! But such a practise is certainly not ethical, so have accountable people in charge of the common area.

For an example of such a sim, the Regency sim in Caledon (northern area) has a half-sim area with high mountains in it; only 468 prims are held in public trust for paths, trees and things and the other 14532 are in the hands of the landed. I invite the CDS to copy the strategy if they wish.

Double prim lots with buffered wilderness are so popular and so conducive to zoning that I haven't released a 'standard' sim in eight months and likely will never do so again.

Diderot Mirabeau
Master Word Wielder
Master Word Wielder
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:28 am

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

I'd like to applaud the contributors to this thread: It is among the most focused and constructive threads I have read in a long time in our forums. And with the general level of our discussion that says a lot.

Personally, I'm inclined to favour allowing a proportion of public land in the new sim since in my view urban planning - which the CDS to a large extent is about - requires a portion of public land/prims upon which to exercise the planning. I think Arria's idea and proposal would be excellent for a public institution to bring people together and help create a common identity for the new sim.

Given that the new sim will be more expensive to acquire and maintain than our previous sims, however, I understand and accept that it is now more than ever before necessary to be sensitive to the cost of maintaining public land and I acknowledge the calculations performed to make this cost transparent.

Finally, I think Desmond's advice shows great potential and in a way it embodies even the desire for wilderness/void sims that I have personally desired for the CDS for some time in a more feasible format. Would it perhaps be possible to have our favorite lurker - Tanouijin - redo the calculations factoring in the possibility for double prim'ing? And Arria, is it possible to give an estimate of how many of the 1,000 prims will be needed on a permanent basis and how many could be taken from the 'public/private prim pool', which would be the result of the double prim'ing, prim vacuuming exercise?

User avatar
Arria Perreault
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 630
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:14 pm

Model

Post by Arria Perreault »

I have tried to make a model to figure out how the monastery could be. This would be a good basis to estimate the number of prims for the structure and the number of prims for the rest.

[img:1ldxdnz0]http://www.be-virtual.ch/blog/images/view1.jpg[/img:1ldxdnz0]
It's raw but it gives an idea ...
(textures are provisory)

[img:1ldxdnz0]http://www.be-virtual.ch/blog/images/view2.jpg[/img:1ldxdnz0]
The monastery will maybe not be directly to the slope, as it is shown. We have to imagine a small road that bring to the entrance.

I am ready to work with other people on this model or on the plans.

Feeback, remarks and critics are welcome.

User avatar
Aliasi Stonebender
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 12:58 pm

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

I like Desmond's idea. While it's not really changing much (in the sense that we might sell these 'natural' spaces as primlots anyway) having it be a in-built feature of the land as opposed to something one has to deliberately buy is a great convience feature, and a useful psychological feature. It's one thing to buy a normal lot and a prim lot, another thing to have a normal lot with TWICE THE PRIMS OH WOW!. And easier for newcomers to understand! :)

Member of the Scientific Council and board moderator.
User avatar
Sudane Erato
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1186
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 8:44 am
Contact:

Post by Sudane Erato »

[quote="Aliasi Stonebender":1fqweyza]I like Desmond's idea. While it's not really changing much (in the sense that we might sell these 'natural' spaces as primlots anyway) having it be a in-built feature of the land as opposed to something one has to deliberately buy is a great convience feature, and a useful psychological feature. It's one thing to buy a normal lot and a prim lot, another thing to have a normal lot with TWICE THE PRIMS OH WOW!. And easier for newcomers to understand! :)[/quote:1fqweyza]
I disagree. Re-allocating prims is extremely difficult to understand. Witness "TWICE THE PRIMS OH WOW!". This is exactly the difficulty with the system, that people somehow think they are getting more prims. We are not. There are available only 15,000 prims on every full sim. Re-allocating (double prims) simply takes the prims from one parcel and assigns them to another. If we disconnect the direct relationship between prims and parcel size (number of prims equals 23% of the square meters in the parcel), then we will be required to abandon monthly tier payments based on parcel size, and instead have tier payments based on prim usage only.

Please make no mistake here. When we pay our monthly fee to the Lindens, we are not paying for "land". We are paying for computer resources, which means CPU support of prims. If we detach the direct, and understandable, relationship between prims and square meters, we will have absolutely no choice but to go to prim-based fee calculation.

To my knowledge there is no function that outputs the number of prims that you own, or that a parcel contains. You must simply open up About Land and manually look. While I apologize for the extremely long delayed land management system, such a plan would kill that project, since there is no way to count the prims in use by the parcel.

I agree that understanding how I get more prims by buying more land is sometimes difficult to understand. I would say that re-allocating the prims will be even more confusing. Desmond can administer a system such as he describes because, indeed, no one need understand it. They need simply to pay the bill that he sends them each month. That approach doesn't work in this community, where everyone must understand the fees they pay each month.

Sudane............................

User avatar
Tanoujin Milestone
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:42 pm

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

ehehe, Aliasi, black humor! Thanks to Desmond...

If we use World > Region/Estate > Region Tab > Object Bonus = 2 and set aside an equivalently-sized parcel of wilderness, the 2400 sqm covered by the building support 1100 prims already.

We have about 1/27 sim, (3,66%), init cost 61,34 US$; 10,80 US$ monthly
by 76: 0,81 US$ init, 14 ct/month

BUT: i wonder who will rent the wilderness? Do we push it under the carpet of the regular inhabitants?

Aliasi, if the prim lots are "built in", what about the prices? Double them? This would also change the parcelling a lot - islands of expensive private high prim land in an ocean of wilderness?

Let us see what the experienced building group members answer :)
(Ah, there it is already, heads up!)

@ Arria, if you think my calculation shows the monastery is too expensive to be public, i regret that i posted it. I smoke my part of the tier 20 times a day! And because i know how it is to be on private estate *without* any public land, i have my good reasons to be a public land fanatic. Public land adds a quality you can not express in lindenbucks only - at least nobody argues against roads to travel between the sims - but i want a place to sit and rest as well, not intruding private space, but meeting people on neutral ground, giving them an ability to retreat to their parcels - and having a place i can meet a non citizen anytime. A place where information is offered, where people can pay their tier, where the PIO can install her board - 2400 lousy sqm, is this really too much asked?
There is a general question: what public land percentage should Alpine Meadows have? Should it be less than 10%? And if we substract the roads: is there enough room for the monastery?

User avatar
Aliasi Stonebender
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 12:58 pm

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Sudane Erato":2khxoejd]
I disagree. Re-allocating prims is extremely difficult to understand. Witness "TWICE THE PRIMS OH WOW!". This is exactly the difficulty with the system, that people somehow think they are getting more prims. We are not. There are available only 15,000 prims on every full sim. Re-allocating (double prims) simply takes the prims from one parcel and assigns them to another. If we disconnect the direct relationship between prims and parcel size (number of prims equals 23% of the square meters in the parcel), then we will be required to abandon monthly tier payments based on parcel size, and instead have tier payments based on prim usage only.
[/quote:2khxoejd]

All things considered, I don't see a very great different, honestly, Sudane. Prim usage is the primary 'meter' to begin with; land is just a way of taking this abstract thing and making it something 'concrete'.

Now, the administration problem I can get behind, but you'll note Desmond's scheme is such that people won't go over the 'proper' amount in the course of things.

Member of the Scientific Council and board moderator.
Post Reply

Return to “Sim and City Planning”