Alpine Meadows - public/private land ratio and proposals

Forum to discuss and coordinate the expansion of the CDS and the redevelopment of existing territories.

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Desmond Shang
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Post by Desmond Shang »

For Understandinge, let us Now Reade from the Book of St. Parcelmonious of Primverness,

Chapter Two.

1. Thou mayest Double Primme thy Lande, with 14532 parcel primmes and 468 Publick Prims.

2. Thou shalt set thine region object multiplier to Two, and yea, there shall be Great Rejoicing. The Number of the Multiplier is Two, and Two is the Number of the Multiplier. Nay, not Three, and not Onne and Onne Halfe.

3. Thou shalt Parcel a Number of 512m and 1024m lots, as is Normally Donne.

4. Thenceforth, Parcel thee exactly 31744m* worth of parcels for 468 prims remaining in thine Leftover Area.

5. Thine Leftover Area will be slightly greater than half the Lande.

6. That area is for thine roads and trees, and the King's Wild Creatures. It is not for thine oddments, bodkins or Personal Properties.

7. On thine Double Primme parcels, everything will Be Correcte on the Land Tabbe. Yea, even a dullard can Reade It directly, and Understande. Failing Comprehenfion, simply Whacke Harde upon thine serf's Noggin and Instructeft Thou to Himme: Reade thine Land Tabbe Againe.

8. On thine Leftover Land (33792m) there is only One Thinge Wrong in thine Land Tabbe. Thine Area should only have 468 Primmes, but the Primme Counte will bea Ridiculoufly High.

9. Do Not Sette Oute more than 468 Primmes in the Bigge Area! Not 469, and not 470. 471 Primmes is right out.

10. Set Autoreturne in thine Bigge Area to Half an Hour or Somethinge, and subfequently Forgette about it.

11. Chargest Thou Double Tier for a Double Primme Parcel. Yea, for that is the Same Value Any wayye.

12. Shouldst thou Sinne, and placest thou More than 468 Primmes, yea, it may go Unnoticed for the Longeft Time. But ye eventually shall be Caughte, and for thine Penance one must Paye Alms to the Primme Poor.

13. One might Briefly Sinne, and placest thou More Primmes for a Short While in the Publick Commons, provideft thou pray that the tenants Mindeft Notte that ye have Donne So.

~ closes book ~

*So where did 31744m come from?

It goes like this: 32768m (half a sim) would use up all the prims were it double prim land. Knock 1024m of 'double prim' land off of that for 468 'public prims' (234 prims of a typical 1024m plot, doubled) and that's what you can use for the big area. Simply don't rent the big area - that's designed for, and kept largely clear for, the public.

But say you want 936 prims. Alright then, take half a sim (32768m) and set aside 2048m (468 standard prims x 2, for 936 prims). 32768 - 2048 = 30720m for private double prim parcels. The leftover area, a bit over half a sim, will comprise of 32768m+2048m, but only 'deserve' 936 prims. Don't put more than 936 out in the big area.

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Arria Perreault
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Post by Arria Perreault »

[quote="Tanoujin Milestone":397g4mb0]

@ Arria, if you think my calculation shows the monastery is too expensive to be public, i regret that i posted it. I smoke my part of the tier 20 times a day! And because i know how it is to be on private estate *without* any public land, i have my good reasons to be a public land fanatic. Public land adds a quality you can not express in lindenbucks only - at least nobody argues against roads to travel between the sims - but i want a place to sit and rest as well, not intruding private space, but meeting people on neutral ground, giving them an ability to retreat to their parcels - and having a place i can meet a non citizen anytime. A place where information is offered, where people can pay their tier, where the PIO can install her board - 2400 lousy sqm, is this really too much asked?
There is a general question: what public land percentage should Alpine Meadows have? Should it be less than 10%? And if we substract the roads: is there enough room for the monastery?[/quote:397g4mb0]

Tan, i totally agree with you. I think too that the new sim should have a public edifice where people can go. Without such building there are no reason for non residents to walk in the sim.

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Post by Sudane Erato »

[quote="Desmond Shang":1w5l8ahz]For Understandinge, let us Now Reade from the Book of St. Parcelmonious of Primverness,

Chapter Two.

1. Thou mayest Double Primme thy Lande, with 14532 parcel primmes and 468 Publick Prims. [/quote:1w5l8ahz] etc, etc, etc........

Thank you Dez.... :)...

Maybe we should have you do the SL Help system... it would actually make MUCH more sense! :)

Sudane.............................

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Post by Rose Springvale »

[quote="Sudane Erato":wa33mi78]

Maybe we should have you do the SL Help system... it would actually make MUCH more sense! :)

Sudane.............................[/quote:wa33mi78]

To say nothing of the fun of reading f's for s's...etc.

Remember that there will be quite a bit of area, regardless of the scheme chosen, that will NOT be buildable in this sim simply due to the elevation changes. It seems to me that the issue is not whether there will be public space in the sim, as i'm sure many people's builds will be open, especially if we don't zone out all the things that avi's come to sims for... shopping, entertainment, activities...Think of central Europe's guest houses, and vineyards, and such. That is where people gather. In museums, you are most likely to meet other tourists.

I still support "light commercial"... where owners could run a shop or pub or whatever on the first floor and "live" upstairs... where farmers can sell flowers from carts, and vintners can sell wine from their cellars. Depending on how many prims waterfalls and natural features take, this could be done with some flair with double prim lots and i'd support that if it can be worked out.

My preference is still a mountain lodge for fishing, rafting, horses, etc over a monastery as public space. And i say that primarily because we have so much urban space already... a good portion of it "spiritual."

As far as getting people to "walk through" the sim... i've place a free bicycle stand on the empty lot across from the Guild lot (diagonally across the road from my office)... try out a bike.. and think how much fun people will have going up the mountain, or down the mountain, on bikes... or horses!... then consider swimmers in the CN river... and add a volksmarch in NFS... and we have a triathalon!

That's what i mean by active things.. rather than passive.

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Post by Moon Adamant »

As regards Rose's comments, which i won't quote, because of space, just a few remarks:

Most of the things you suggest - and which i think are very good ideas - don't exactly conflict with the public space, at least in my understanding. The citizens can always make events at their places - it isn't the existence of a public space that will forbid them - but perhaps the lack of a public space may compromise the future occurrence of public-organized events? Thoughts, please :)

Also, i am personally favourable (check the last guild discussion) that the plots be allowed a commercial function - while keeping a primarily residential function, and taking pains through covenant to regulate the appearance of shops. But that's for further discussion.

What has occurred to me just now - and that's why i am posting :
I just went to pay my tier this month and used the new payment system (which btw, not only is working good, as it is looking great :). This made me realize that we will need a bit of space to hold the system for Alpine Meadows - granted, nobody says it needs to be a building... can be a rock garden, even :)

As i was thinking that, standing on the Rathaus, i also recalled that the RA moves its sessions from sim to sim - in the philosophy that no sim takes precedence over the other(s), also to enhance representation, assuming that people would attend more easily a RA on their sim and bring their issues (this is what i recall from that discussion). So, if that philosophy applies to Alpine Meadows, we will need a space for it. Can the monastery fulfill that function too?

This is a thought that just crossed my mind, so i would like very much to listen to comments as regards this particular issue.

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Arria Perreault
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Post by Arria Perreault »

[quote="Moon Adamant":3jv71283]
As i was thinking that, standing on the Rathaus, i also recalled that the RA moves its sessions from sim to sim - in the philosophy that no sim takes precedence over the other(s), also to enhance representation, assuming that people would attend more easily a RA on their sim and bring their issues (this is what i recall from that discussion). So, if that philosophy applies to Alpine Meadows, we will need a space for it. Can the monastery fulfill that function too?[/quote:3jv71283]

Of course. It is big enough. I think that it is a good idea that our authorities met also in the new sim.
A lodge would be too small for that purpose. Alpine lodges are very small, and only made for eating and sleeping.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Why do we need a building? Think Ruetli meadow or Thingvellir with a big Law Rock for the Dean to stand on.

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Post by Rose Springvale »

Moon,

I'm not against public space at all... please dont' misunderstand. I'm pretty sure alodge could be built to accomodate the RA.. at least as easily as the Praetorium and the Rathaus. I've been to lots of ski lodges in both Europe and the US that have entire floors devoted to meeting rooms... so that's just a question of design i think.

As far as "events" .... well. Events take a lot of time and interest to put on. They require coordination of time zones, planning and money. They are stressful, as anyone who has put them on will tell you. The thought i had for this "activity" is not events per se, but the sort of things that people can self execute... play on their own for the most part. There are many activities like this across the grid... from bull riding to sky diving. We don't have anything like that, with the possible exception of the Thermae. Sure i'd love to have activities to utilize whatever we come up with, but it would be good for some of the "traffic" to come to the sims without having to have an event.

I've been trying to decide why I feel somewhat negativley to a monastery as a public building, and the only thing i can attribute it to is my adamant belief in the separation of church and state. Even "ecumenical" structures with their historic past rooted in religion seem to cross that line for me. Perhaps that is one of those issues that doesn't raise the same alarms across cultures?

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Post by michelmanen »

Separation of church and state? No religious buildings on public lands?! (Gasps in horror). Thank the Allmightly you are not involved in the Al-andalus Project! (ducks and runs away grinning) :twisted:

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

[quote="Rose Springvale":2fozu3g1]

I've been trying to decide why I feel somewhat negativley to a monastery as a public building, and the only thing i can attribute it to is my adamant belief in the separation of church and state. Even "ecumenical" structures with their historic past rooted in religion seem to cross that line for me. Perhaps that is one of those issues that doesn't raise the same alarms across cultures?[/quote:2fozu3g1]

What you have to keep in mind here is that both NFS and CN are to an extent recreations of real places (A medieval German walled city and a Colonial Roman outpost) ,and both those places were rooted in cultures where religious space was very much public, making the Kirche and the temples part of being faithful to the real world environment being recreated, rather than any statement about links between religion and the CDS "state" . For that matter I'm unaware of any actual religious service ever being held in either place.

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Post by Arria Perreault »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":fpa5krsk]Why do we need a building?
[/quote:fpa5krsk]

Because we found some in the Alps!

Because it's a good linkage between NFS and CN themes (intellectual role of monasteries)!

Because we need at least one public building in a sim.

Many monasteries don't have anymore religious communities today and are used as public buidings for many purposes. It will be the case of this one.

I would like to remember to CDS people that i am probably the closest person of Alpine area and that I know a bit about it. I did not propose this monastery without reason. It is well related with the theme of the sim and makes a good transision between the two other sims.

We have to be consequent in our choices and make logical things.

If the public buildings of CDS are empty and unused, the reasons are to find in our feeling of community. Try to organize something that is not a official political meeting ...

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Post by Rose Springvale »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":1hhae2ql]

What you have to keep in mind here is that both NFS and CN are to an extent recreations of real places (A medieval German walled city and a Colonial Roman outpost) ,and both those places were rooted in cultures where religious space was very much public, making the Kirche and the temples part of being faithful to the real world environment being recreated, rather than any statement about links between religion and the CDS "state" . For that matter I'm unaware of any actual religious service ever being held in either place.[/quote:1hhae2ql]

I'm a bit confused. Are the Kirche and temples being proposed to be used for State meetings?

While we may be creating a faithful representation of the past, the point on which i think we'd all agree is that THIS community is not rooted in a culture where religious space is public. WE are doing something new.

i think we are mixing apples and oranges Claude. I'm not against a monastery in the sim. I'm just not comfortable with a monastery as a public building that "state" money supports or that would be used for "state" purposes. Whether religious services are ever held isn't going to remove the cross from the altar and make my muslim friends feel comfortable. And yes, i'm aware that there is no cross on the altar in NFS... but it is clearly a church... not a temple, not a mosque, not a gymnasium. And i submit that government should be completely separate in a democracy.

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

It's interesting, isn't it, that the US, with its constitutional separation of church and state, has much more involvement of religion in political life than the UK where we have an established church that is represented in one of the Houses of Parliament? It would be inconceivable, for example, for an atheist to be elected President (and I'm sure it would be pretty difficult to achieve any high political office) whereas we feel rather uncomfortable in the UK with Blair's profession of his faith and other politicians who make a big deal of their private faith.

So I don't have a problem with the NFS Church, the CN Temples or the idea of an Alpine Meadows Monastary (or even a Mosque if the Al-Andalus proposal hadn't been withdrawn). That may be at least in part due to my cultural background even though I'm a militant atheist who makes Richard Dawkins look conciliatory! Such buildings don't suggest state support for religion or for a particular religion, they just represent respect for the cultures we are drawing inspiration from and the opportunity to build beautiful structures which could be used for religious ceremonies if people choose to use them that way.

As for holding RA meetings in the proposed Monastery, I'm easy. If we are to continue the tradition of rotating RA meetings throughout our sims then we need to have a space to meet. I'm happy to do it in a moonlit glade, in a hovering spacecraft, in an underground dungeon or the Monastery. If the Monastery causes problems for some, let's do the meetings outdoors.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

[quote="Rose Springvale":xfzpv96w]
i think we are mixing apples and oranges Claude. I'm not against a monastery in the sim. I'm just not comfortable with a monastery as a public building that "state" money supports or that would be used for "state" purposes. Whether religious services are ever held isn't going to remove the cross from the altar and make my muslim friends feel comfortable. And yes, i'm aware that there is no cross on the altar in NFS... but it is clearly a church... not a temple, not a mosque, not a gymnasium. And i submit that government should be completely separate in a democracy.[/quote:xfzpv96w]

I'm unaware of the CDS's "religious" buildings being used for official meetings, ever. I'll leave for further discussion whether placing the payment boxes in the temple in CN constitutes using the structure for a "state purpose". I do believe that the parcels in question are subsidized and considered to be public space.

I must confess to being less uncomfortable than Rose is with this situation. I've always understood the builds in question as more of an historical and aesthetic statement than a religious one.

For that matter if we are to go so far as to insist that no public subsidy be given to any building which is, to quote Rose, "clearly a church" ( or for that matter, clearly a temple, mosque, monastery or synagogue. We want to be fair and even handed here) We then reach the point at which the CDS is officially atheist (subsidy is precluded, after all, only to those buildings which look religious). Would such a thing not also make Rose's Muslim friends uncomfortable?

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Post by Sudane Erato »

[quote="Claude Desmoulins":1cgp9c9l] I'll leave for further discussion whether placing the payment boxes in the temple in CN constitutes using the structure for a "state purpose". [/quote:1cgp9c9l]
Just for the record, the western third of the Parthenon, the ancient temple of Athena atop the Acropolis of Athens, functioned as the city treasury. The Roman goddess Minerva (to whom the temple is dedicated) springs from the Greek goddess Athena.

So, when casting about for a suitable location for the payment boxes for the Colonia Nova sim, it seemed only appropriate that they be located in the Temple of Minerva/Athena.

Sudane................

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