Lag ....

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Bromo Ivory
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Lag ....

Post by Bromo Ivory »

As we know NFS has quite a bit of lag in town. It has been bad enough that Asha has been unable to finish her house without crashing - (and we've been over all the anti-lag things). So much so she is likely to sell the land in NFS and leave. And I do find the lag rather distracting so find myself getting frustrated as well - to the point when I usually will TP somewhere else.

After having a RL discussion with her reasons for this, I htink that upgrading our SIMs, even if it would mean higher fees, might be a thing to discuss.

I am putting this in SIM and city planning because I do not know if this is ready for legislation - I think a frank discussion before this (on the forums) would be called for since it broadly impacting the amount of money being paid.

This is a practical matter, and one that may help the long term viability of the place.

==
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Post by Rose Springvale »

I agree. NFS is a beautiful build, but it's almost impossible to see it.

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Sudane Erato
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Post by Sudane Erato »

I've researched this matter, including inquiring of Linden staffers what the policy on this is, and I must say that its not clear. I haven't discovered any way that we can contact LL and say: Here's our extra US$100/month... please upgrade our server to a Class 5.

I also have never received any clear information that we would notice the difference should we upgrade from whatever we have now (Class 3 or 4) to a Class 5.

Undoubtedly my information is incomplete (like everything in SL!). If anyone has better information about this topic, I'd love to see it!

Sudane.............................

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Sonja Strom
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Re: Lag ....

Post by Sonja Strom »

A posting has appeared in the Linden Blog that says an upgrade to class 5 can be made for USD$200, at:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/06/g ... o-class-3s

Do we want to do this?

If so, it says "then please create a support ticket by end of Friday 16th November 2007."

Last edited by Sonja Strom on Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Lag ....

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Thanks for catching that Blog post Sonja.

The Linden blog says that all class 3s will be upgraded to class 4 shortly for free. We could pay an extra US$200 to go straight to class 5 but there does not seem to be any great improvement (though there is some) between class 4 and class 5.

You pays your money, you takes your choice:)

From my perspective, I'd say it's worth paying the $200 to get the best that is currently available. It may only be a marginal improvement over what we would get for free but if we consider the value of that marginal benefit for NFS citizens, other CDS citizens and visitors over the next year or two it's probably worth two hundred bucks. But that's just my opinion, others may well see it as a waste of money.... (and I'm an NFS resident currently so I should declare an interest).

Key issue is: we have just over a week to make a decision (and we all know that can take a *lot* longer in the CDS!) We could resolve this by discussing a bill at the next RA meeting on Sunday 11 November. Does that sound like a sensible way forward?

Edit: This is assuming we're on a class 3 server. Does anyone know for sure? How could we find out?

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Sudane Erato
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Re: Lag ....

Post by Sudane Erato »

!@#$%$#@!

1) They make an announcement like this, with somehow the assumption that everybody knows what "Class" their sim server is. I have asked and asked and asked about how to determine what class a given sim is on. No one knows.

2) They add in the note that if we respond by Nov 16, we can upgrade for the paltry sum of US$200. Sounds great, right? Do they mention the fact that everyone who upgrades to a Class 5 server pays the new tier of US$295/month, rather than US$195/month???

............ Or is even this not true?????

What is the procedure for any of this?? This is truly a disaster topic, when added to the fact that other than being a newer generation, the Class 5 server has no clear benefit to the sim owner.

I'll spare you all from the remainder of my "french" expressions on this topic.....

Sudane....................................

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Re: Lag ....

Post by Sudane Erato »

The following was a conversation this morning in concierge support. I will follow up with the LL response to my ticket.....

Kosmo: Hello Sudane_Erato, how can I help?
Sudane_Erato: Hi :)... how do i find out what class of servers I have?
Sudane_Erato: I have xx sims
Sudane_Erato: Sorry for this question.... it seems like a silly waste of your time...
Sudane_Erato: but I know of no other way to find out
Kosmo: I will look into this for you, one moment
Kosmo: seems the only way is to ask us! as there are so many, if you could please submit a support ticket stating all of their names then we'll look out for it and get the answer for each of them back to you as soon as we can.
Sudane_Erato: well, ok... but you have published a deadline for upgrade of Nov 16
Sudane_Erato: and it would be good to know before then
Sudane_Erato: it know this would not be a prioity issue for you
Kosmo: I will make a point to seek out your ticket by name when I'm on tomorrow if you'd like
Sudane_Erato: great, then one more question
Kosmo: I like to make residents happy and whatever form that takes I will most certainly try
Kosmo: sure
Sudane_Erato: if we upgrade to Class 5 now, will our tier be raised to 295/month
Kosmo: yes, that is the class5 tier
Sudane_Erato: so, in additon to the $200 upgrade charge, the tier also rises?
Sudane_Erato: the blog post is VERY misleading on that
Sudane_Erato: you may want to suggest to the blog folks that they clarify that
Kosmo: as I understand it yes it does, I will need to seek clarification though but I will add this to the response to your region class ticket. and yes, I will suggest blog clarification
Sudane_Erato: great!... i really appreciate you help, and i'll file that ticket now
Sudane_Erato: ty :)
Kosmo: excellent, I'll keep an eye out for it
Kosmo: any time

FWIW

Sudane......................................

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Lag ....

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I've posted the following comment on the blog:

"This is a welcome development which I’m sure many class 3 owners will be looking forward to.

There are two issues I’d like to raise though:

1) Sim owners need a fast reliable way of determining whether their server is class 3 (and therefore eligible) or class 4 (and presumably not). We’ve been trying to find this out for our sim ‘Neufreistadt’ and have had to put in a support ticket via the concierge service - a rather cumbersome way to do things. Perhaps someone at LL could post a list of existing class 3 servers and a link to this blog to speed things up?

2) I think it would help if you made it clearer that an upgrade to clsss 5 means the tier will increase from US$195/month to $295/month. It’s true that we should all know that but, when you announce one set of costs (the $200 one-time transfer fee) it would be a good idea to highlight the increase in monthly costs at the same time as this will clearly be a factor in the decisions people take."

Comments are still open and there are about 75 so far so feel free to pile in and add your own!

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Sudane Erato
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Re: Lag ....

Post by Sudane Erato »

Follow up to my inquiry to the LL folks yesterday morning.

--------------------- Beginning of Message ----------------------------
Hello Sudane, please see below for a listing of the classess your regions are. also there is some clarification of the points your queried below.

Kind Regards,

Kosmo Linden.

<><><><><><><><><>

The sims are:
---
---
alt Rudeen Edo *****
4 Neufreistadt
4 Colonia Nova


>Also, please clarify the "upgrade offer" indicated in the current blog posting. The >post says that I can upgrade to Class 5 for a US$200 upgrade fee per sim. Will I >then be charged $295/month for each upgraded sim? Or will my charge remain at >$195/month?

charges remain @ $195 per full region though this offer is only from Class3 to Class5 so is not applicable to your regions.

----------------------- End of Message ---------------------------------------

So... bottom line.... if we determined that indeed there would be any discernable difference in our experience if we were to migrate from Class 4 to Class 5 sim servers (which is highly dubious), we would have the priviledge of paying US$400 ( $200x2) for the upgrade plus US$200 ($100x2) per month for the increased tier.

Sudane..............................

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Lag ....

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Sudane

Thanks for chasing the Lindens and finding this out for us. I must admit I'm surprised to see that both NFS and CN are class 4 servers given the difference in perceived performance between the two. I guess we'll have to look to other factors to work out the reasons for that.

I think that LLs offer was to owners of class 3 servers only. These are the ones that are being upgraded to class 4 and which have the option to be upgraded all the way to class 5 for a handsome fee and the tier increase. I think the Lindens said that they were not offering to upgrade class 4 owners to class 5 right now but, if they decided to, they would announce it on the blog.

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Re: Lag ....

Post by Rose Springvale »

Please clarify if I'm wrong, but I think the ability to migrate from Class 4 to Class 5 is not time sensitive .. i.e. we can volunteer to do this at any time we feel like spending more. If that is the case, I'm in favor of waiting until we have AM online, which will be Class 5, to see if WE can tell a difference. I can in SOME Class 5 sims.. but mostly because they are largely empty... while others (particularly recent ones used for music venues) seem as laggy as NFS has ever been.

I am curious as to what makes a sim lag.. if CN and NFS are both Class 4.. they should have similar results yes? Yet most of the time, CN is very low lag, something that I can't generalize for NFS. Does it have to do with density of builds? Complication of textures? Scripts? Particles?

I suspect the answer is "all of the above"...

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Sudane Erato
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Re: Lag ....

Post by Sudane Erato »

Rose Springvale wrote:

I suspect the answer is "all of the above"...

The answer is indeed "all of the above", although establishing a direct correlation between any given resource demand and sim performance is extremely difficult. Here are some factors:

1) Scripts. NFS has quite a fair number of scripts, but they are not excessive as to number and load demand on the sim resources. Since its easy for the Estate Managers to monitor these, most of the nasties have been weeded out.

2) Textures. These are a huge problem in NFS. Both the number of separate textures, and the size of those textures, affects the demand on the server. Because NFS was assembled in a hodge podge fashion, we have many different texture sets. I would not be surprised if many of them were quite large. I've made a few buildings in the town, and I know that I often have to restrain myself from uploading building texs that are alrger than our covenant maximum of 1024x1024. In this case, the EM's have no real way to measure compliance with this.

3) Particles. Particles are a client-side phenomenon, meaning that they load down *your* computer, but have no significant impact on the server (except the small load of the script that runs them). We really DO NOT have many particle generators in NFS.

4) Avatars and their attachments. If the sim is laggy when only one or two avies are on it, then this is not the problem. But, when gatherings happen, the presence of avatars are a direct and significant load on the server, a load made much more significant by the objects attached to the avatar. We all know that a sim is limited to 15,000 prims, in order to control the load on the server. But there is no limit to prims attached to an avie, so that in good sized gatherings, this number can multiply a hundredfold. I just think of the hundreds of prims in my hair, and I know why the sim lags when avies visit. It used to be that event invitations often carried requests that women limit their prim attachments (why they singled out women, I have no idea!!) so as to improve the experience for all the participants. A year or more ago, LL made load handling improvements in the code, so this request became less important. But it is still a real factor.

5) Physical moving objects. We have very little load on our sims because of this factor, since we have very few vehicles and other "physical" things ("physical" is a setting in an object, and causes the object to act in a MUCH more complex way than a "non-physical" object).

These are just some of the server load considerations. Sadly, the only two we can monitor are "Scripts" and "Physical objects" (Collisions). Well, we can also restrict the number of avies that enter our sims. All the other factors can be affected only by appeals.

Sudane...........................

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Re: Lag ....

Post by Dnate Mars »

Bromo Ivory wrote:

As we know NFS has quite a bit of lag in town. It has been bad enough that Asha has been unable to finish her house without crashing - (and we've been over all the anti-lag things). So much so she is likely to sell the land in NFS and leave. And I do find the lag rather distracting so find myself getting frustrated as well - to the point when I usually will TP somewhere else.

After having a RL discussion with her reasons for this, I htink that upgrading our SIMs, even if it would mean higher fees, might be a thing to discuss.

I am putting this in SIM and city planning because I do not know if this is ready for legislation - I think a frank discussion before this (on the forums) would be called for since it broadly impacting the amount of money being paid.

This is a practical matter, and one that may help the long term viability of the place.

I hate the word lag. It tells you nothing, other then something isn't right, or at least I think so. A client crashing is not usually related to the "lag" of a sim. Slowness, rubberbanding, and other annoyances are indicators of a slow sim. In NFS there will be issues. It is in part because of the design of the sim. We have high textures and the script time is high.

I have been keeping my eye on that sim for quite some time and am trying to reduce the load that is on the sim. Upgrading the sim form 4 to 5 will not make that much of a noticalbe difference. If we really want to make NFS better, we need to do things like changing textures and coding the script so they use less resources.

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