Citizenship Commission Transcript (8 September 2007)

Proposals for legislation and discussions of these

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Citizenship Commission Transcript (8 September 2007)

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (28, 64, 25)

Meeting on 2007-09-08
Those present:
Bromo Ivory is in the chair.
Bromo Ivory: Citizenship Commission Meeting 10AM SL time (appx) on
Saturday 8 September 2007. Bromo Ivory Chairing.
Rose Springvale: sim crash bromo?
Bromo Ivory: Hello TOP, Rose
Sleazy Writer: HI Bromo & Rose
Bromo Ivory: No crash that I know of
Bromo Ivory: Hey TOP!
Rose Springvale: well i think it might have
Rose Springvale: what happend to tan and lilith?
Sleazy Writer has indicated consent to be recorded.
Rose Springvale: bromo you ar ruthed
Bromo Ivory: OH thats funny - I don't look ruthed to me
Rose Springvale: well, fix it!
Bromo Ivory: PLease touch the recorder
Rose Springvale: i'm not staying
Rose Springvale: just thought i'd do another announcement for you
Bromo Ivory: Oh OK
Bromo Ivory: OK, good - its important to get as much input as possible
Rose Springvale: :)
Sleazy Writer: ty
Bromo Ivory: That note I gave you is the current wording of the
constitution as it stands today
Bromo Ivory: TOP, please touch the recorder to indicate consent
Tanoujin Milestone: Hi everyone :)
Sleazy Writer: The excerpt with that nice judicial language.
Bromo Ivory: Hello Tanoujin!
Sleazy Writer: done
Sleazy Writer: Hi Tan
Rose Springvale: have a good meeting... let me know if you need
Bromo Ivory: Tanoujin, welcome - please touch the recordedr to indicate
consent to have the minutes recorded
Tanoujin Milestone: the sit targets are misaligned?
Bromo Ivory: I dont' think they are
Bromo Ivory: But they could be
Tanoujin Milestone: ok, prob at m side :)
Tanoujin Milestone: Hello Bromo!
Bromo Ivory: Good to see you in world again - I beleive we met before
Tanoujin Milestone: Sleazy :)
Bromo Ivory: in world - I see you on the forums
Tanoujin Milestone: Yes, at your house.... btw, we have a new neighbour
Bromo Ivory: Yes, Asha sold her property
Tanoujin Milestone: Lilith, she is somewhere around here
Bromo Ivory: Hi Michel
Bromo Ivory: Hi Ludo
Sleazy Writer: hm too bad she quit - Who's the new neighbour?
Bromo Ivory: !!
Tanoujin Milestone: Did Asha move, or is she away?
Michel Manen: hi bromo.. hello all
Bromo Ivory: She sold and moved away form CDS :(
Bromo Ivory: PLease touch the recorder
Tanoujin Milestone: :(
Tanoujin Milestone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Bromo Ivory: Note for the record: Michel is wearing a very LOUD kilt
Sleazy Writer: Hi Ludo
Michel Manen: grins
Bromo Ivory: HI Lilith!
Lilith Ivory: hello All :))
Tanoujin Milestone: Gentlemen, our new Citizen, Lilith Ivory :)
Bromo Ivory: PLease have a seat and touch the recorder to indicate
consent to be recorded
Lilith Ivory: I am the one which buyed Ashas land :))
Bromo Ivory: Welcome Lilith!!
Ludo Merit has indicated consent to be recorded.
Lilith Ivory: thank you
Sleazy Writer: welcome :)
Lilith Ivory: thank you bromo :))
Sleazy Writer: Family of Bromo?
Bromo Ivory: I think we have a fair group - so we can get started if
everyone is ready?
Bromo Ivory: Oh yes, Ahsa is my RL wife
Lilith Ivory: congrats Bromo I really like Asha :))
Bromo Ivory: I gave the handout to everyone here
Bromo Ivory: (TY Lilith!)
Bromo Ivory: and it basically is the wording of the current
constitution - but in essence it says that in order to be a citizen, one must
purchase a plot in CDS. I would like to discuss what has been on the forums
- meaning - is this the only way? What options do we have, and what
sort of things can we do ?
Bromo Ivory: Hi Gonta - please touch the recorder to indicate consent
to be recorded and Welcome!
Gonta Maltz has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sleazy Writer: Hi Gonta
Gonta Maltz: hello!
Tanoujin Milestone: Hey Gonta !
Lilith Ivory: hi Gonta
Gonta Maltz: yo =)
Lilith Ivory has indicated consent to be recorded.
Michel Manen: I think the fears some people have that we'll be swamped
are a red herring. I don't see huge line-ups of people lining up to
join CDS - do you? A nd even if there were, would that we such a bad
thing? I think we have 2 very diffeent visions here - the one I support is
that of CDS as a growing, expanding community of people working on a
common project about democracy, participation, the rule of law, human
rights. and another that sees this mainly as a building and land
administration project.. and until we resolve this i dont think we'll be able to
move ahead.....
Ludo Merit: I believe this has been discussed before. May we have a
summary of what people have been saying?
Bromo Ivory: Yes -
Bromo Ivory: SO far there are a number of ideas
Gonta Maltz: you can be a citizen of a country irl without living in
Bromo Ivory: And the history form a year or so ago is different since
it involved tier and mainland - Pat said he was going to find it but has
Bromo Ivory: Well, the main issue is that there is a group that likes
things the way they are (and that is always true when one proposed
somethign new)
Michel Manen: this is not irl gonta.. the same rules dont apply.. and
yes, you can,,, i have 3 citizenships.... i dont live in 3 countries at
the same time ;)
Bromo Ivory: THere are those that think that some sort of fee needs to
be paid
Bromo Ivory: And some think that (I htought of this) that a propspectiv
citizen should be able to "adopt" a plot of public land and pay tier
on it
Bromo Ivory: to fulfil the obligation.
Bromo Ivory: TYhere are many nuances - but these are the 3 current
broad categories.
Tanoujin Milestone: The adopt a plot idea is interesting, Bromo, i
think that is a good direction - would you like to comment that, Michel?
Bromo Ivory: What about it do you like Tanoujin? WHat are its
Tanoujin Milestone: Hm, i would like to hear more details - and look
what the comeout could be -
Tanoujin Milestone: i really would have rented a single piece of the
road, when i came here - but with full permissions, you see?
Tanoujin Milestone: Gxeronimo mentioned he holds a plot because he has
to to be a citizen - i think that should be adressed
Bromo Ivory: Yes - in this case one would pay tier on a public land -
and possibly even purchase it - but the land would be held in trust -
meaning you would not get full perms
Bromo Ivory: Any thoughts on Gxeronimo's ideas?
Michel Manen: Well i totally agree with him
Michel Manen: he simply could pay a citizenship fee and participate
without owning land
Tanoujin Milestone: Yes, he has a point, i agree
Tanoujin Milestone: it would be symbolic...
Michel Manen: thats exactly what i proposed
Tanoujin Milestone: but i still would like to see a connection to the
Michel Manen: i dont see why Tan.. sorry
Tanoujin Milestone: even if it is merely nothing...
Ludo Merit: Tan, why?
Michel Manen: paying a fee is the same as paying tier
Tanoujin Milestone: because of the RL analogy i use-
Michel Manen: well that doesnt apply here im sorrry
Ludo Merit: Which is?
Tanoujin Milestone: you could convince me to switch to a beter analogy,
i am open to that
Tanoujin Milestone: that is: i go to a city state, i rent a place, i
get citizen status
Ludo Merit: Citizenship in RL and dwelling place are not conected
Tanoujin Milestone: chat is laggy
Bromo Ivory: Ludo, good point - even the homeless are citizens
Tanoujin Milestone: Michel, i know you have another Vision, and i would
love to attend a lecture about it
Ludo Merit: A citizen agrees to laws, and gets rights in exchange.
Michel Manen: sure- let me give you an example - communties of
belonging -people who share a characteristic or interest but live in may
different places - yet stil lbelong to one group: the best example of one
such organised group is the Catholic Church ;) but there are many many
others :)
Tanoujin Milestone: Half of my chat is eaten by SL...
Tanoujin Milestone: Ludo, i typed an answer to your question, have you
received it?
Bromo Ivory: Lag has been weird Tanoujin
Tanoujin Milestone: :)
Ludo Merit: [10:27] Tanoujin Milestone: that is: i go to a city state,
i rent a place, i get citizen status
Ludo Merit: But tha'
Ludo Merit: is not how it works in rl
Tanoujin Milestone: then explain how it works
Michel Manen: the point here is that what we are really doing is
building a non-territorial community- we have no land... we just have some
server space we use to create a sense of palce for our group- thats the
realityt of it
Ludo Merit: A Mexican can buy land in the US and still be an illegal
Bromo Ivory: Good point Ludo, in RL it is somewhat decoupled from land
Tanoujin Milestone: as i said, my experience is: i move to the
citystate of bremen, for example, rent a place, and become Citizen
Ludo Merit: Is that RL?
Tanoujin Milestone: i give up to type, i do not see my chat :)
Michel Manen: we do Tan
Ludo Merit: Is Bremen RL?
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, ok, ty, sorry, i am disabled, better relog
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, that is rl
Gonta Maltz: an idea citizen is an individual is one who is a
contributor to his country -- a participant in the society
Ludo Merit: Idon't know of any country that doesn't require more than
just renting land in the country.
Ludo Merit: I will have to look up Bremen
Bromo Ivory: Isn't Bremen part of Germany?
Tanoujin Milestone: well, it is a federal state - you see, i do not
have another vision, i just refer to my limited experience, without
claiming to be the hlder of the only truth....
Lilith Ivory: it?s a city state in germany Ludo
Bromo Ivory: If I were to go there as a US citizen ... would I be able
to become a German citizen by renting in Bremen?
Tanoujin Milestone: i have to relog brb
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, and i do not want to "germanize" the CDS, that
is important - that said - poof
Lilith Ivory: no of course not :)
Lilith Ivory: only a citizen of bremen - it?s quite complicated
Flight Band: All Go
Gonta Maltz: if an individual is interested, he should be allowed to
participate. As long as he has interest in CDS we should not discriminate
based upon percieved motives
Bromo Ivory: And I suppose this commission is to determine and discern
how much particiaption someone would be abel to do
Gonta Maltz: what
Gonta Maltz: oops, sorry
Tanoujin Milestone: Bromo, so, what is it with the adopt a plot idea?
Is this subject dropped, or is it subsummized under "possible
Bromo Ivory: The subject is not dropped - though it is just an idea at
the moment.
Bromo Ivory: The idea is that we would allow someone to "adopt" 128m^2
of public space - the public would own it - though the perosn would pay
tier on the land.
Gonta Maltz: a minimum fee would have to be determined
Tanoujin Milestone: If we take road pieces, and allow the people to
rezz something there if they like, and give them a covenant that sais:
maintain the road (would hardly ever mean to do something) and give them
this very piece of road - i would be fine with it
Sleazy Writer: Sounds to me like it's jsut the same as paying a fee ..
just dressing it up nicely
Tanoujin Milestone: i do not like 2-class societies- and i fear thats
where it goes
Bromo Ivory: Well one could argue that we *all* pay fees
Bromo Ivory: And if politically there was no distinction - then I
beleive the intangibles would be surmountable.
Bromo Ivory: socially.
Tanoujin Milestone graabs the dictionary
Gonta Maltz: I would say, shouldn't interest and participation be
payment enough
Bromo Ivory: But let's talk about just the "prospective citizen pays a
fee" for a moment - what are the strengths and weaknesses of that?
Gonta Maltz: it's somewhat of a compromise, that's a plus -- but it's
essentially just microplots over again
Michel Manen: the strengh of it is that we do away with a huge
restriction to entry - anyone can join our project irrespective of whether
"land" is available or not at any one time; it also allows those not
interested in land to particpate and freems more land for people who want
Tanoujin Milestone: right, Gonta, thats a point
Michel Manen: there are no disadvantages exxcept for those who want to
keep this a "land" management coop and restrict entry and voting rights
to the landed gentry
Sleazy Writer: Gonta > What happens if I do 1 very cool event and am
always absent after that? Did I deserve citizenship for the rest of my
second life? That's a verry vague way of giving citizenship .. Monthly
payment is a clear unambiguous sign of commitment
Sleazy Writer: payment for land I would say
Gonta Maltz: s > well then what "harm" would it do?
Tanoujin Milestone: If they were true prospectives - how can we know -
i can just pretend to have the intentiion th get landed later on....
Bromo Ivory: TOP, I am not sure payment for land keeps peopl ehere
Gonta Maltz: perhaps, since non-land owning citizens could be
considered to be paying for their citizenship with participation -- then if they
did no participate after a set amount of time their citiztenship would
be revoked
Bromo Ivory: If one pays for citizenship and continues the payment -
regrdless - then one can say they are particiapnts.
Michel Manen: but they also pay a fee gonta... how is that different
from paying tier?
Michel Manen: exactly
Bromo Ivory: Well Gonta, I would ewant the revokation to apply equally
across the baord then
Tanoujin Milestone: Gonta, but that is terrible: "you are a no show
citizen, we kick you out now" ...
Gonta Maltz: I'm saying that they pay no fee
Michel Manen: do u know how many citizens whe have now with lots in CDS
thtat NEVER show up?
Gonta Maltz: I'm not saying I agree with it, it's just an idea
Sleazy Writer: whatever, .... but requiring "a certain amount of
participation" (or organising a party) and then having citizenship for the
rest of your second life is a very dodgy concept .. very subjective and
it's possible to get a large goup of people with voting rights who have
no other ties whatsoever
Bromo Ivory: Oh - I would say that the fee pays for the server space -
economic reality - and that is what would give one the right to have a
say on how the server is used.
Tanoujin Milestone: :) yes, and i appreciate your input :-)
Michel Manen: has any of you met Bruno echegaray? eus Zedkin? dozens
Michel Manen: no of course not
Bromo Ivory: TOP, yes, much like what Sudane voiced last time - even
the NGO's "certifying" someone is a citizen makes her nervous.
Bromo Ivory: An individual paying him or herself is the defining act of
Bromo Ivory: Well was.
Gonta Maltz: but if they did not pay, than their participation does
Gonta Maltz: *do not
Bromo Ivory: How would you be able to determine if someone is
participating enough in a measurable way?
Bromo Ivory: As unam,biguous as payment
Michel Manen: well lets take an example
Michel Manen: antonius Camus
Michel Manen: a student who really helped out in building CN
Michel Manen: and then serverd as janitor to keep ait clean andd sho
people around
Michel Manen: but had no maney to buy land
Michel Manen: the guild vould sposnor his paplication for example and
the RAcould approve it
Michel Manen: for services renderedto the community
Tanoujin Milestone: the guild is ngo - the executive ould have to
sponsor,,, no?
Tanoujin Milestone: how can the guild sponsor one because he is a civil
Bromo Ivory: Yes, the issue Sudane had it - is that the citizenship
rolls are not unambiguous
Sleazy Writer: direct payment by NGO's makes citizens quite dependant
on that NGO .. or NGO-boss .. or shop-owner (in case a renting salesman
gets sponsored)
Sleazy Writer: I would suggest paying people and that payment can be
used to purchase land (or a citiz. fee)
Bromo Ivory: And the NGO's will then be abel to pick and choose
citizens - giving them electoral power.
Bromo Ivory: TOP, that is a great idea!
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, clean and easy, as far as i understand. If the
NGO does not have the right to pick and choose
Tanoujin Milestone: but just pay
Michel Manen: yes thats a very good idea
Gonta Maltz: I've been called into work early, take care everyone
Michel Manen: then the person can choose what to do with the moneey
Tanoujin Milestone: see you, Gonta
Michel Manen: thanks for atteding gonta!
Sleazy Writer: see you
Tanoujin Milestone: What about Fernandos argument, that the CDS should
untie Citizenship from land "possession" and run the land issues
independently with another organization? To be consequent....? The discussion
stopped at that point
Michel Manen: well i think that long-term that makes sense, if we
expand in multiple sims and have different communties join us... but with 76
citizens and only 3 sims its a bit premature
Bromo Ivory: Well, Tan, here iis the place to discuss this.
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, thank you Michel - lets keep it in mind
Bromo Ivory: I agree - there are a number of merger activites with
other SIMs that are availabel to CDS, but our rules don't allow it to
happen without a lot of change and loss of sovereignty on the other SIM, but
not ours.
Michel Manen: ok i apologise but i need to run.. thank you all for
coming and taking part ;) smiles
Bromo Ivory: See you MIchel
Tanoujin Milestone: See you! :-)
Sleazy Writer: you bowed with your ass in my direction
Bromo Ivory: We are at 11, but I scheduled this for 2 hours.
Lilith Ivory: see you :)
Tanoujin Milestone: lol
Bromo Ivory: TOP - language - ! LOL
Sleazy Writer: I'll just try to do the same thing in return next time
Bromo Ivory: haha
Tanoujin Milestone: hm, i know it is on the record , well ok - i have
land elswere, i would like to move it to the cds---- that is my personal
interest as a citizen - and there is not enough land - i would like to
see hard numbers on demand...
Bromo Ivory: We do have the Franchulate act
Tanoujin Milestone: we are discussing theory, but who does know exactly
how many pople would like to join?
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, i would do that at once, but it is estate -
big fault, as i see now
Bromo Ivory: No - I do not beleive we will be flooded with peopl e- but
we would have a core of additonal people who are community minded
Bromo Ivory: Yes, the Estate portion of it would be difficult
Sleazy Writer: Bromo > You could try a franchulate test case, where the
applicants ONLY agree when there are good separation +
buy-the-sim-back clauses attached.
Tanoujin Milestone: Bromo, i would also like to see and talk to people
who are waiting for a chance to join - take their interest into account
- and make some legislation that furthers what is "really" there....
Bromo Ivory: I looked into it with another island - and they didn't
want to do it when they saw the Franchulate Act itself - which is focussed
on the mainland - BUT - this ins't on topic.
Bromo Ivory: Oh that is a good idea - would you mind contacting Sudan
on behalf on this commission?
Sleazy Writer: yup, right
Tanoujin Milestone: Yeeees, i put it on my to do llist
Bromo Ivory: He he
Tanoujin Milestone: lol :)
Bromo Ivory: Let me know how it goes - I can ask around as well - what
would be good is to have the people who belong to CDS who are not
citizens - the group
Bromo Ivory: TOP are you a citizen at this point?
Bromo Ivory: (changes so much! lol)
Sleazy Writer: yes I am a citizen and will put an explanatory post on
the forum today
Bromo Ivory: Oh OK
Tanoujin Milestone: Yes, and what they say - what they would need - if
there is anything ... ok, lets push that a little
Bromo Ivory: I agree - kind of like a market survey.
Bromo Ivory: I only ask since the report is due on the 17th, and I will
be gone the 15th and 16th
Tanoujin Milestone: yes. I IM you if i can get something - quick :)
Sleazy Writer: Br > I'll send you a notecard with my opinion one of
these days .. I'm not fully informed yet
Bromo Ivory: Oh ok - I lookf forward to receiving it.
Bromo Ivory: Lilith - you bought your land the other day -
Bromo Ivory: WOuld you have considered joinging the CDS without land?
Bromo Ivory: Hello Delia!
Sleazy Writer: Hey Delia :)
Lilith Ivory: yes this aternoon in german time :))
Bromo Ivory: PLease touch the recorder to indicate consent
Tanoujin Milestone: Delia :) Hello
Lilith Ivory: hmm no I like the Sim and was looking for a good place to
sell some items
Delia Lake: hi everyone :)
Lilith Ivory: but I?m not so much interested in politics :)
Delia Lake has indicated consent to be recorded.
Lilith Ivory: hi Delia
Delia Lake: things haven't rezzed for me yet
Delia Lake: did i get it?
Bromo Ivory: I will check
Bromo Ivory: It looks like everyone is OK for consent
Tanoujin Milestone: You mean, you want to live a happy SL here in the
CDS, and are interested in politics as far as they concern you directly?
Tanoujin Milestone: Lilith?
Lilith Ivory: yes :))
Tanoujin Milestone: ;) i hope to meet you in the sims then and check
your stuff set for sale :-)
Lilith Ivory: :)))
Bromo Ivory: So, Delia, wht are your thoughts on the citizenship
discussion. I can summarize it for you if you like.
Bromo Ivory: the major opinions.
Delia Lake: yes, please summarize. i had a previously scheduled meeting
i needed to attend
Bromo Ivory: No problem.
Bromo Ivory: THere are a number of opinions.
Bromo Ivory: ONe idea is to leave things the way they are -" land "
ownership is important
Bromo Ivory: Another is that Payment of a citizenship fee should be the
definition of citizenshiip
Bromo Ivory: A third way is that one could "adopt" a plot of public
land that is held in trust and use that to define citizenship for those
that do not own land already
Bromo Ivory: Antoher one that came up here is that participation should
be a path for non citizens to become citizens.
Bromo Ivory: (and not payment)
Bromo Ivory: I think that was all of them.
Delia Lake: hmm. what about renters of properties in the CDS?
Bromo Ivory: We have not discussed rentals.
Delia Lake: i don't know that we currently have any.. but
Bromo Ivory: There currently are no rentals, are there?
Delia Lake: the question that comes to my mind, is citizenship for the
sake of what?
Tanoujin Milestone: no, i think it is called "subletting" and it is not
allowed At NFS z1, but i do not know where exactly it is fixed please
go on, Delia
Delia Lake: so in applying that question to the different categories
Delia Lake: in the current system where citizens are landowners, the
elected officials have or can have a direct effect on the rights and
properties of those citizens. so at least in theory they have a vested
interest in the CDS democratic process
Delia Lake: but for the other categories you listed, the answer is not
clear to me
Delia Lake: or answers
Bromo Ivory: So your main concern is that the rights oflandowners won't
be respected?
Delia Lake: no
Bromo Ivory: I guess I may not fully understand
Delia Lake: my main concern is that i do not see why people who are not
CDS residents would want to be citizens
Delia Lake: for the sake of what?
Delia Lake: a renter, though not a landowner, would be a resident
Sleazy Writer: To participate in the discussion? A.k.a. argumentative
folks :)
Sleazy Writer: To act out their law fantasies?
Tanoujin Milestone: ehehehe :)
Delia Lake: why would a non-resident want to be a citizen? what would
they gain and what would we gain?
Sleazy Writer: Or maybe less frightening .. to simply participate and
hang around?
Bromo Ivory: Delia - the main though of mine on this is that we would
attract a few community minded people - who would help build us up
Delia Lake: in that sense, what does "participate" mean?
Sleazy Writer: Good question
Sleazy Writer: Visitors can participate too
Bromo Ivory: Well they are citizens, they woudl help in events and all
the things we can and would do - and they would help with these events
I woudl think since the community is the main attraction of CDS
Delia Lake: so Bromo, how might that work? i would most certainly like
to see the CDS sims be more active places with many people coming
through and coming back
Bromo Ivory: But visitors have no *say*
Bromo Ivory: One of the ways we described.
Bromo Ivory: I figure that when people come for the community ONLY -
and we get a few - there will be more going on.
Sleazy Writer: Bromo > they have a say if they ask the chancellor to
host their event, ... they have a say if MoCA would reform it's
regulations .. they can play an active role in the new Guild
Delia Lake: in one of the previous discussions, citizenship by group
membership was also on the table
Tanoujin Milestone: My guests always have a say, but not about how i
decorate my garden (but i ask sometimes)
Bromo Ivory: But they can't vote - and they can't have a say in
governance of the place, TOP.
Sleazy Writer: Br > but you have a point
Lilith Ivory: another important point for me to join this comunity was
the possibility to build something together with others maybe
Bromo Ivory: THe idea would be that these people are every bit as
valuable to a SIM as land owners.
Lilith Ivory: It?s boring to stay for my own all the time
Bromo Ivory: And if they are willing to financially contribute - they
should also have a say
Sleazy Writer: Lilith > Sounds like the right place :) (granting you
can tolerate ppl around you who talk too much heheh)
Lilith Ivory: hehehe ( there still is the mute button :))
Tanoujin Milestone: Delia, the Group ownership Law is currently in
force, i think - but you have to be a citizen ie landowner before - what
about subletting? Is this a way?
Delia Lake: subletting or renting would work for sure
Delia Lake: for me anyway
Sleazy Writer: How does that connect to citizenship?
Delia Lake: even group membership would work
Tanoujin Milestone: I would sublet at once - i met a journalist, quite
new resident - was interested in the CDS - i was sorry that i had
nothing to offer
Delia Lake: if you rent in rl, you are a resident of a locale and you
get to vote ther
Sleazy Writer: not the case everywhere
Tanoujin Milestone: as soon as you rent a place here (and to be true
"ownership is renting too) you can become a citizen
Delia Lake: in the US that is the case
Tanoujin Milestone: Delia, thank you! Thats my view as well
Sleazy Writer: But Tan > You as a landlord .. wouldn't the journalist
be very dependant on you? It would be possible that he want to great
lengths to keep you as a friend
Lilith Ivory: hehehe
Sleazy Writer: I'm thinking cronyism here ..
Sleazy Writer: (If I spell it the right way ..)
Bromo Ivory: Delia - even the homeless can vote.
Tanoujin Milestone: i hope the CDS would have laws to save the renter
from my goodwill
Delia Lake: in my city, the homeless have to list a shelter as a place
of residence for themselves
Tanoujin Milestone: a standard renting contract - fixed runtime,
prolonging - and so on
Sleazy Writer: Allowing renting *might* encourage land speculation ..
something I feel uncomfortable with
Tanoujin Milestone: yes, may be a prospective-home :)
Delia Lake: i certainly do not want to see land speculation either, TOP
Lilith Ivory: what about a comunity owned kind of youth hostel or
something like that?
Delia Lake: i have thought of that too Lilith
Tanoujin Milestone: Yes, Sleazy, it is not an instant solution, would
need much effort to work it out
Delia Lake: yes, or a timeshare hotel
Tanoujin Milestone: :)
Sleazy Writer: Tan > I think requiring everyone to pay monthly will
free up land for new people .. when the land of absent people (who do not
pay) becomes available.
Delia Lake: TOP, do you know how absenteeism is handled now?
Sleazy Writer: (monthly for their own land is what I mean)
Sleazy Writer: Delia > the absentees are all people who have pre-paid
larger amounts of money
Delia Lake: how long until the land is repossessed by the gov't
Bromo Ivory: Right now absenteeism is claimed after tier is not paid
Tanoujin Milestone: hmhm, thats an effect of the new renting system ( i
like it, but it s also a mechanism that makes policy, as you point
Delia Lake: how long after?
Sleazy Writer: D > Some of them only remain citizens by virtue of group
membership .. and if 1 person from that group pays again, the rest
stays citizens 1 more year even if they've totally forgotten what
CDS/Neufreistadt/Neualtenburg was
Sleazy Writer: :)
Delia Lake: by what date?
Bromo Ivory: Well it is a way it ENFORCES policy
Delia Lake: yes, for groups
Tanoujin Milestone: Bromo, i am new - how was it decided to have the
new system? A RA decision?
Bromo Ivory: The tier payment?
Sleazy Writer: "how long" --> not sure .. Sudane/Rudeen cuts people a
lot of slack
Tanoujin Milestone: yes?
Bromo Ivory: Sudane implemented it since she was collecting Tier
Bromo Ivory: This just automates the already existing laws - so
required no RA intervention
Delia Lake: that's what i thought
Tanoujin Milestone: so, it makes policy, no decision by the RA, so, no
enforcement of rules, but new rules by the machine - but as i said, i
like it!
Bromo Ivory: It really does not
Bromo Ivory: the laws have not changed
Tanoujin Milestone: oh, ok, thats a difference, yes, i withdraw that
statement :-)
Bromo Ivory: But either way - I doubt anyone would begrudge Sudane the
extra hours of bookeepting she is saving
Tanoujin Milestone: thanks for explaining it!
Bromo Ivory: NP! :)
Bromo Ivory: We are approaching 10 minutes left - and for me it is a
hard stop. So ... are there more comemnts and concerns - I really liked
the discussion abotu rent.
Delia Lake: as i said, i would very much like to have our sims have
more people around. often in NFS, i am the only one there
Bromo Ivory: I feel the same way
Lilith Ivory: many new residents of SL are looking for a afortable
place to rent
Lilith Ivory: maybe this would be a good way to become more citizens
Bromo Ivory: Rentals is an interesting idea.
Sleazy Writer: I really don't get it why people rent in the first place
.. things aren't expensive here
Delia Lake: at the same time, i would like to insure that citizens have
some vested interest in maintaining the CDS as a safe, beautiful place
where we are working in common to invent a process of effective
democracy in a virtual space with people who come from many and diverse rl
Delia Lake: there is no land to buy in NFS right ow
Delia Lake: now
Bromo Ivory: Yes
Bromo Ivory: This is why I was thinking of "Adopt a plot"
Delia Lake: that might work also, Bromo
Bromo Ivory: Since they would have a vested interest in the public
space possibly
Tanoujin Milestone: my second plot is for rent , but of course thats
only one lot - the other two were picked by Lilith
Lilith Ivory: :))
Lilith Ivory: also to small to build a hotel
Bromo Ivory: heh heh
Delia Lake: yes, a hotel would work.
Delia Lake: if rentals were allowed, some of the currently owned but
unused space might actually be used also
Bromo Ivory nods
Bromo Ivory: I would agree with that
Bromo Ivory: Well we are near the end o fthe meeting - are there any
last comments?
Bromo Ivory: (BTW, anyone using voice here?)
Delia Lake: i have it and was using it earlier today
Lilith Ivory: not at the moment but generally sometimes
Delia Lake: i seem to be the only one in this group who shows up with
voice at the moment
Delia Lake: thank you Bromo :)
Lilith Ivory: thank you Bromo :)
Tanoujin Milestone: Thanks :)
Bromo Ivory: I will now close the meeting - thanks so much for your
input! :)
Bromo Ivory: (I gave speech gestures fortthe record to Lilith and
The meeting closed at 12:0 Linden time.

"Nenia peno nek provo donos lakton de bovo."

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