Citizenship commission report - comments from hoi polloi

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Jamie Palisades
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Citizenship commission report - comments from hoi polloi

Post by Jamie Palisades »

About the report recently posted at http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... =8735#8735

For what it's worth, as a resident, I agree with the reported"#1" choice of permitting nonlandowners to join for a fee. The benefits of having a greater number of persons invested (especially in the communal sense) in our communities outweigh, to me, the risks mentioned.

As was pointed out. some re-exam of the limits around respecting "property rights" probably would be wise, as nonlandowners join the polity.

A principal risk discussed was "ballot packing" with new residents at election time. While a genuine risk, this seems to me mitigatable. Some reasonable filters are possible, like closing the rolls x weeks before a vote, LL account age of >x days, etc. All voting jurisdictions must, in their own laws, address voting fraud, as well as misuse of voter rolls as an entrenchment or exclusionary device, and balance both evils.

It seems to me that SL and CDS are and should be, more like those RL nations who welcome and metabolise immigrants, than those who harshly sort out the Volk from the Gastarbeitern. Thanks to the commission for its study of this issue. JP

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Post by Beathan »

Jamie --

Thanks for your comment, but I disagree with your position. There is far more at stake than mere "ballot stuffing" in a move to "fee based citizenship."

First, moving to fee based citizenship would transform the CDS into just another democratic debating society. There are already many such groups in SL and RL. These groups tend to commit the worst sins of Robert Kennedy -- dreaming of things that are not and cannot be.

One of the greatest things about the CDS is that we are not just a chatting group -- we are an experiment in virtual government. To govern we must govern something. We have our sims for this purpose. We need our sims for this purpose. Without the sims, we would have nothing to govern.

The fact that we are running sims keeps us grounded and practical -- freeing us from the excesses of talk groups. Further, our sims provide an alternative to the usual anarchy of the mainland and centralized authoritarianism of the islands (even if that authoritarianism is mitigated by competition of landlords for tenants). We govern ourselves by governing our space -- and we would lose that in a fee system.

Second, if we preserved our sim-governance, but allowed nonresidents to become citizens, then we would create an inequitable and untenable power imbalance. Those of us who own property in the sim would have far more in jeopardy from government decisions than those citizens who didn't own property -- but we would no no more say in how our property is regulated or otherwise affected. This creates a political version of the "free-rider" problem.

The only way I see to protect landowning residents from the new fee-citizens would be to devolve land management tasks onto new, local governments. That is, we would have to create a new level of government and the current government would have to relinguish control over the land (completely -- without check) to these new, local governments. This would complicate our governmental structure -- which, as many have observed, is already a bit too complicated for a population our size. Also, it would not solve the first problem -- that the CDS Federal government would become nothing other than a buy-in think-tank and talking group.

I am already a member of such groups in SL and RL outside the CDS. I joined the CDS because it was different -- and wonderful in that difference. The fee-based citizenship proposal would destroy the very thing that makes the CDS unique and valuable (that it is an experiment in [i:34xsxwtt]virtual but practical politics[/i:34xsxwtt]).

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Post by michelmanen »

Beathan,

Your objections are unfounded. By paying a fee, landless citizens would be just as involved in our community as those who own land. All your other objections simply do not stand. I won't waste my time to discuss them in detail now.

I fully agree with the commssion's report and Jamie's comments.

Michel

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

You are missing my point completely. The problem is not that the fee-citizens would be uninvolved or disinterested. The problems arise because the fee-citizens would be involved and interested -- but with nothing (or less) at stake. If the fee citizens would pay a fee and then leave things alone, I would have far less heartburn over the proposal.

In other words, if the fee-based citizenship proposal does not create a new group of active landless citizens, it is useless -- and if it does, it is harmful. It is like surgery on a healthy body -- no benefit, but a real possibility of damage, pain and death.

Beathan

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Post by michelmanen »

They would have just as much as stake, if not more, than those who now own 144m2 lots or even larger. The idea that owing pixels is the determining factor in how our citizens act is simply not tenable - it is actually interest and commitment to our community - and paying a fee is no different than paying a similar amount of rent. I see no reason for you to assume that simply because landless citizens dont actually 'own a piece of virtual land they would manage our resources worse tha we are now doing.

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the "tragedy of the commons." Here is some reading.

[url:vk4avixw]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons[/url:vk4avixw]

Beathan

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Post by michelmanen »

Tks :) I prefer the Commedy of Errors ;) That's why I keep reading your posts :) :lol:

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Post by Bromo Ivory »

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Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Beathan »

Bromo --

Our sims are (and must remain) the center-piece and kernel of our community and project. Our sims are limited resources. Right now, that limited resource is divided among people who own parts of it and, by virtue of that, participate in all of it (including public spaces). To delink citizenship from the sims is to create a group of citizens who share in the limited resource of the sims without having a personal investment comparable to that of landowners.

I am not opposed to delinking citizenship from landownership, provided it is done in a way that preserves our territorial idea and our personal commitments to our sims. I believe that my proposal of citizenship through service on and in furtherance of our sims would do this. Mere fee-payment (or nominal "adoption" of a public plot) would not.

This is the rub. This is the point that has not been addressed by your report.

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Post by michelmanen »

[quote:32cfqx9m]To delink citizenship from the sims is to create a group of citizens who share in the limited resource of the sims without having a personal investment comparable to that of landowners. [/quote:32cfqx9m]

That is patently false. People paying citizenship fees without owning land will at at least as much investment as those who do, because they chose to participate in our community even without being given a land parcel for their own, personal use. This invoves an even higher level of commitment to our project. Your arguments are both flawed and false.

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

The entire sim is a public resouce -- including the private plots. The private plots are regulated by governmental action. That regulation is the key issue. Right now, the set of people (the citizens) who are doing the regulation is coextensive with the set of people (the landowners) who are being regulated. If we extend our activity to a fee-based system, we no longer have this coextensive citizenship. This gives an unregulated group (the fee-citizens) the right to regulate (and therefore burden) the regulated group (the landowners) without any real check.

The only way to avoid this is to increase the complexity of our government by creating a new tier, in which only landowners participate, for the regulation of land.

However, this fix would create an additional problem. If we have a fee based citizenship standard would make the CDS jsut like every other SL political discussion group that has a fee requirement for joining. The CDS is not just a discussion group -- and we should not become one.

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Post by michelmanen »

Regulation of virtual land is only a small part of our community's activities. Therefore, your attempt to reduce citienship to land ownership is entirely unwarrented.

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Post by Bromo Ivory »

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Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Beathan »

Michel --

By land regulation I mean the entire spectrum of land use. This includes events in our sims, construction of our sims, and the use of our public spaces in addition to the restrictions on private owner's use of their property. The disconnect would run across all aspects of land use.

Please list the things the CDS does that do not touch and concern land use. I think this list would be very, very short -- and would primarily involve political discussions. Thus, my concern that the fee-based citizenship proposal would reduce the CDS to a talking shop and would destroy the important and real connection all citizens should have to the territory of the CDS.

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Post by Bromo Ivory »

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Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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