Some problems regarding citizenship.

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Sudane Erato
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Some problems regarding citizenship.

Post by Sudane Erato »

In light of the decision of the CSDF that nothing needs changing at this time regarding the definition of citizenship, which perhaps might mean that no changes do indeed happen (since issues of citizenship cry out for a consensus decision in our small community), I'd like to point out some problems.

It has been customary during prior elections for the technician in charge of the election mechanism to request of the Treasurer (or the Estate Manager) a complete list of all citizens. This list has both constitutional impact, in that its length determines the number of representatives in the RA, and it of course has political impact, since only the names on the list can vote.

In my role as Treasurer, I can no longer provide an accurate list. I have brought this issue up to the Commission, and to the RA itself repeatedly, and it has been my impression that changes in the rules of citizenship would indeed remedy the situation. If no changes will in fact be forthcoming, then I feel I must broadcast this problem as loudly and as clearly as I can.

The problem is this. I can certainly identify and list for the election technician those citizens who have bought land in one of our sims, earlier than the required time period before the election, and who pay their monthly fees on a regular basis. I have the data to support that list.

But recent legislation allows citizenship to partners and fellow group members who may in fact not make a monthly payment to the Treasurer for their land. Indeed, there may be group ownership of a land where some members of the group are citizens of the CDS by virtue of their membership in the group, and other group members not such citizens.

In such cases, a prominent member of the group will declare to me the citizens in their group. At that point I can and do check the land owned by that group, so as to certify that the land owned by the group comprises at least 128 sq/m for each claimed citizen. That is all I can do. Beyond that, I must simply take it at the word of the spokesperson for the group that the individual named by them as citizens are indeed citizens.

An example. I have a group called Neufreistadt Holdings. The citizen members of this group are myself, Salzie, and until two weeks ago, Garnet. Should the Treasurer come to me to request the list of citizens in the group, I would declare who they are. The Treasurer would have no other recourse but to take my word for it (since the group does hold sufficient land).

Therefore, with the prospect of no changes to the citizenship definition, I as Treasurer will have to provide two catagories of certification to the elections technician prior to the upcoming elections:

1) Citizens who are citizens by virtue of the fact that they own and pay for land in the CDS.

2) Citizens who are citizens because a spokesperson in a landowning group says they are.

I cannot understand how anyone can find this acceptable. As long ago as the spring of 2007, I proposed legislation which would require that any citizen, even group members, be required to make some small payment towards the cost of their land on a monthly basis, and that such *act* be deemed the basis of their citizenship. It was this proposal which, for reasons I cannot fathom, caused Michel to quit the RA. It now seems as though the CSDF is taking a similiar route by quitting the process of achieving obviously necessary changes.

I hope they reconsider their decision, and together with the other members of the community address the problems of defining citizenship in the CDS.

Sudane............................

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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Sudane

I think the CSDF position hasn't come through clearly enough. We haven't ruled out any clarification of the citizenship rules; it would be crazy to rule out any change, especially on the technical issue you raise (and have raised before). Our position was formed in reaction to the drive to delink land ownership from citizenship. This was the issue that the recent commission ended up focussing on but which we don't think can be resolved without a great deal of input from the community at the expense of other, more pressing, issues.

The issues you raise came up at yesterday's CSDF meeting tangentially as we were discussing your proposed change to the way land is bought and sold; we need to be able to enforce the rule that each citizen owns no more than 4096m2 in any one sim and we may need to re-examine the Group Land Ownership Act which, while desirable, has led to some uncertainties.

I'm not sure I fully understand why the picture is so complicated though. We have a list of citizens entitled to vote already. New people can only join the list by purchasing a plot of land in the CDS on their own as a private individual. That seems pretty clear. We do not allow people to join the CDS just by joining a group that owns land here so that potential source of confusion does not arise. People leave the list by declaring their intention to leave the CDS and putting their land up for sale. If they are members of a landowning group they can leave the group if they no longer want to be CDS citizens.

Now, there are supposed 'citizens' of the CDS who claim citizenship by virtue of group membership but are never seen from year to year and may only put in an appearance at election time (if at all). I think we can discuss the idea of requiring all citizens to pay their share of the monthly fee on their land if they are to be considered citizens of the CDS. I agree that we need certainty about who is a citizen of the CDS as an accurate electoral roll is vital in a democracy. Any lack of certainty about this needs to be cleared up as a priority.

Please don't take the CSDF position on delinking land ownership from citizenship as meaning that we think everything's fine and dandy and there's no need to consider the issues you raise :).

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Post by Sudane Erato »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

I'm not sure I fully understand why the picture is so complicated though. We have a list of citizens entitled to vote already. New people can only join the list by purchasing a plot of land in the CDS on their own as a private individual. That seems pretty clear. We do not allow people to join the CDS just by joining a group that owns land here so that potential source of confusion does not arise. People leave the list by declaring their intention to leave the CDS and putting their land up for sale. If they are members of a landowning group they can leave the group if they no longer want to be CDS citizens.

I thought my example displayed the problem with this, but maybe I was not clear. Let me go back to it.

One of the members of my group is Garnet Psaltery. As you know, she was a landowner in Neualtenburg from the month that the first sim was bought. In recent months, she has been relatively inactive in the CDS, preferring to keep her citizenship for quite understandably sentimental reasons. About two weeks ago she decided that she would depart more permanently, so I have assumed that she now wishes to leave CDS citizenship.

Everything i have just said, in the above paragraph, you have no choice but to take my word for. I could equally well omit pointing out that Garnet has left, and, when election time rolls around contact her and beg her to log in and vote. In addition, her remaining on the rolls would cause the number of citizens in inflate, possibily resulting in an additional RA member.

The problem here seems clear to me. Definition of citizenship has devolved to the word of a spokesperson for a group. Since I am currently that person who has the role of "declaring" who is citizen, I must state now (rather than waiting until the election and throwing the process in disorder) that should there be no changes in citizenship law, I will be forced to declare the two catagories of citizenship which I have defined in the previous post.

Sudane.............

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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Sudane

Thanks for posting a follow up that gives some more detail on the problems as you see them with the current system. I think I understand better where you're coming from now. I find it much easier to discuss these issues in terms of examples like the one you've given rather than by considering the abstract principles.

My interpretation (and it's only mine) would be that Garnet and Salzie remain citizens of the CDS for as long as they remain members of the Neufreistadt Holdings Group. That does not currently involve any activity on their part. I think that's what you're getting at here; people do not have to make any contribution (financial or otherwise) and remain 'on the books' until they make a declaration of some kind or until the person actually paying the monthly fee says they're not really here any more. I agree that this isn't a desirable state of affairs.

Would a solution involve the kind of changes we discussed before the Citizenship Commission was first mooted? I.e. require everyone to log in once a month to pay their share of the monthly fee if they wish to retain their citizenship?

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Post by Sudane Erato »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Would a solution involve the kind of changes we discussed before the Citizenship Commission was first mooted? I.e. require everyone to log in once a month to pay their share of the monthly fee if they wish to retain their citizenship?

I don't have ready access to that proposal wording, but it is my recollection that the proposal you and I presented to the RA last spring required each citizen to assume *some* financial responsibility for the land which either they owned or were part of a group that owned it. As a member of a group, "their share" could consist of whatever share the group decided it might be.. indeed, those owners of a grandfathered microlot pay only L$29 per month. The only administrative burden placed on groups was that they specify how much each member would pay, so that Rudeen could set the Payment Boxes.

The point is *not* the amount they pay, but simply that a citizen commit *some* act of volition, by doing so declaring their intention to remain a citizen of the CDS. It seems to me that there must be *some* definable basis on which citizenship is based, and simply the word of one person about another person does not seem sufficient.

I have no position in the issue of "landless" citizens vs. "required land ownership". Both solutions have their strengths and weaknesses, and I as an individual would support whichever has the support of the community as a whole. My issue is only that we need *some* clear definition.

Sudane.................

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

Sudane Erato wrote:

I don't have ready access to that proposal wording

This is the proposal, as it was posted here. I think it still makes a lot of sense.

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

I'd like to propose the following amendment to the Group Land Ownership Act and am grateful to Sudane for working up this proposal.

This proposal aims to provide a clear mechanism for the group ownership of land and consquent identification of citizens; clarity that one citizen=one SL avatar=one RL person and clarity on what happens if/when individuals default on their payments.

This proposal retains the provision that 'all members must be citizens before joining the group' for reasons I have outlined elsewhere.

---------------------------------------
Amendment to NL5-9 Group Land Ownership Act

Replace 2 with the following and renumber:

Residents of SL receive citizenship in the CDS by owning land in one of the sims administered by the CDS, and by agreeing to comply with the laws and covenants of the community. The citizen, who shall be a RL person presenting themself as a single SL avatar, may hold land either through individual ownership (in which their name is displayed on the "About Land" page of their parcel), or through membership in a group (in which the group name is displayed as "owner" on the "About Land" page of their parcel). The group shall own, compliant with the covenants regarding maximum ownership by any single citizen, at least 128 sq meters of land for each individual whose citizenship is qualified by that land.

Furthermore, each citizen shall be required to pay their monthly fee for land ownership, in person, each month, at the sim location established for this purpose. Individual owners shall pay the entire cost of their parcels in this manner. Group members shall allocate among themselves each member's share of the fee for land owned by their group, with the minimum amount of L$100 allocated to any one person. A group representative shall provide to the Treasurer, in a timely fashion, the list of citizen members, and their respective allocations.

In the course of time, should it happen that an individual does not pay their monthly fee (according to schedules established by the Chancellor and the Treasurer), that person shall be liable to lose their citizenship. Should that citizen be a citizen by virtue of membership in a land owning group, other group members will NOT risk losing their parcel and thus their citizenship. Rather, at the point that the Chancellor/Treasurer shall determine that person to be delinquent, and thus ineligible for further citizenship, the remaining members of that group shall be required to re-allocate their monthly amounts in order that 100% of the monthly fee be paid. If the resulting reduction in membership should cause the group to exceed its maximum land-owning allowance (as per the covenants), the group will be required to divest excess land.

I've marked 'sims' in red, because it should be replaced with 'areas' to make it franchulate (NL 5-4) compliant.

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Post by Bromo Ivory »

Sleazy -

Please come to the commission meeting. This is one item that the report says MUST be addressed amongst other things - like I said I want CSDF participation.

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Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

Caretakers note: Garnet's prims stay on my welcome list, and i dont say "good bye", but "looking forward to meet you", currently voting member or not!

The electorate of the 7th RA list seems to be the first citizen list at all. I hope there will be a way to reconstruct an almost complete list of former citizens btw. But the point right now is, the right to vote has to derive from clearly defined criteria. Right, Sudane?

It would be great if every Citizen could have a payment box, not only the individual owners, but the Citizens-through-group as well. The minimal activity asked from a citizen to keep the right to vote would be to visit her box once per month. The groups could declare what amounts their members hold to set this up, and ask for changes, if they occur.

I do not have the group lists ready for CN, but for NFS i know there are about half a dozen citizens concerned. Would like to hear their opinions first. Salzie's, for example :wink:

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A Distance Participant

Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

Real life issues preclude my active participation in SL in-world, though I consider myself an involved citizen via my communication with folks via gchat and the forums.

I do manage to pop in infrequently and have been paying Sudane for my share of the tier for the group's property. It doesn't make much difference as to whether I pay Sudane directly or trudge to the Rathaus to pay a mailbox, although I would need a large window of opportunity to pay in order to be certain I can actually get in world and pay on time.

Even though I'm not in-world much, I do feel that I am an involved participant in the CDS and I do care deeply about its well-being . I find it worrisome, however, that some proclaim they can't participate in the forums due to incivility and refuse to participate, limiting their contacts and interactions to those in-world. By doing so, the CDS runs the risk of disenfranchising those citizens whose RLs make it difficult to physically attend in world meetings or whose in world time is limited.

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Re: A Distance Participant

Post by Dnate Mars »

Salzie Sachertorte wrote:

I find it worrisome, however, that some proclaim they can't participate in the forums due to incivility and refuse to participate, limiting their contacts and interactions to those in-world. By doing so, the CDS runs the risk of disenfranchising those citizens whose RLs make it difficult to physically attend in world meetings or whose in world time is limited.

You know what is funny about this? I hear the exact opposite from people in world. They fear that if you aren't on the forums you aren't part of the discussion or community. So, I guess that means we are either doing things right, or we have done something really wrong.

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Re: Some problems regarding citizenship.

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

The issue will always remain, Dnate :)

In RL, public debate in democracies is done both on the media and on a house of representatives...

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Re: Some problems regarding citizenship.

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Gwyn- Yes, but also there is always fear that the "grass is always greener" as they say in the US - meaning people almost totally on one or another medium fear the OTHER medium is where all the action is!

:lol:

(BTW, I HATE airports)

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Re: Some problems regarding citizenship.

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The following bill was passed by the RA on Sunday 21 October:

--------------------------------------------------------
Amendment to NL5-9 Group Land Ownership Act

Replace 2 with the following and renumber:

Residents of SL receive citizenship in the CDS by owning land in one of the territories administered by the CDS, and by agreeing to comply with the laws and covenants of the community. The citizen, who shall be a RL person presenting themself as a single SL avatar, may hold land either through individual ownership (in which their name is displayed on the "About Land" page of their parcel), or through membership in a group (in which the group name is displayed as "owner" on the "About Land" page of their parcel). The group shall own, compliant with the covenants regarding maximum ownership by any single citizen, at least 128 sq meters of land for each individual whose citizenship is qualified by that land.

Furthermore, each citizen shall be required to pay their monthly fee for land ownership, in person, each month, at the sim location established for this purpose. Individual owners shall pay the entire cost of their parcels in this manner. Group members shall allocate among themselves each member's share of the fee for land owned by their group, with the minimum amount of L$100 allocated to any one person. A group representative shall provide to the Treasurer, in a timely fashion, the list of citizen members, and their respective allocations.

In the course of time, should it happen that an individual does not pay their monthly fee (according to schedules established by the Chancellor and the Treasurer), that person shall be liable to lose their citizenship. Should that citizen be a citizen by virtue of membership in a land owning group, other group members will NOT risk losing their parcel and thus their citizenship. Rather, at the point that the Chancellor/Treasurer shall determine that person to be delinquent, and thus ineligible for further citizenship, the remaining members of that group shall be required to re-allocate their monthly amounts in order that 100% of the monthly fee be paid. If the resulting reduction in membership should cause the group to exceed its maximum land-owning allowance (as per the covenants), the group will be required to divest excess land.

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