Covenant Task Force Meeting Log - 18th Nov 2007

[Moon Adamant]

[10:12] You: let's start
[10:12] You: as you may have seen on teh agenda
[10:12] You: this meeting will be an extraordinary covenant meeting
[10:13] You: so that we can finish the thing and i can present it to RA next
[10:13] You: by teh agenda
[10:13] You: the only things left to discuss are
[10:13] You: property restrictions
[10:13] You: typologies
[10:13] You: and teh approval of the covenant text as a whole
[10:13] You: i am sharing with you my draft, which i have been updated as we vote language
[10:14] You: mind the colour code in it
[10:14] Sudane Erato: where do we find it?
[10:14] You: the draft?
[10:14] Sudane Erato: yes
[10:14] Sleazy Writer: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddg6kg6c_53hfhj8f
[10:14] You: touch the Moon's draft cube
[10:14] Sudane Erato: ahhh
[10:14] ThePrincess Parisi: the code is nice
[10:14] Sudane Erato: kk
[10:14] You: hi MT
[10:15] You: mind that for the BLACK text on teh draft
[10:15] Sleazy Writer: Hi MT
[10:15] You: those are only *my* suggestions
[10:15] MT Lundquist: hi
[10:15] You: which hopefully will be bettered at this meeting
[10:15] Sleazy Writer: (which I am glad you worked on .. someone has to do it)
[10:15] You: so...
[10:16] You: let's continue with the land property restrictions
[10:16] You: at last meeting
[10:16] You: there were issues concerning the property restrictins of individuals and groups
[10:16] You: also tehre was an inconclusive vote
[10:16] You: let me look for it
[10:17] Sleazy Writer: Was it?
[10:17] You: yes
[10:17] Sudane Erato: hi MT
[10:17] You: the result of the vote was 5 Yes, 1 No, 5 Abstentions
[10:17] You: and teh motion was :
[10:17] You: "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned, which must be of different sizes. A person cannot own more than 4096 m2."
[10:18] Sleazy Writer: What about a new vote?
[10:18] You: i would like to ask you, why, if you do NOT agree, what are your reasons for it
[10:18] You: yes, in a few minutes Sleazy
[10:19] You: ok hmmm there seems to be no hard arguments against this
[10:20] You: yes Princess?
[10:20] ThePrincess Parisi: nothing
[10:21] Sleazy Writer: It seems a wee bit restrictive to me .. but I don't know what else to propose
[10:21] Sudane Erato: so AM would have a different rule in this regard than the other two?
[10:21] Sleazy Writer: Any counter proposals?
[10:22] ThePrincess Parisi: it would be simpler to make them all the same
[10:22] Sleazy Writer: NFS has a rule of " maximum of n parcels in zone C"
[10:22] Sleazy Writer: city
[10:22] Sudane Erato: yes, thats true
[10:22] Sudane Erato: but in the country part...
[10:22] You: this issue is a bit complex, specially if we take the group land act into account
[10:22] ThePrincess Parisi: and if we get more sims after that.....and .. one just creates a group to go around it so its o a moot point anyway
[10:23] Sleazy Writer: I think of it as similar since we've got a limited number of parcels here
[10:23] You: for teh other sims, we have resorted to a limit on land area
[10:23] You: eventually with some restrictions by zone
[10:24] Sleazy Writer: Moon, do you have a better text than what we have now?
[10:24] Jo Sapeur: may I make a suggestion on the covenant?
[10:24] You: at the moment, i don't see how the language proposed is restrictive
[10:24] You: sure, jo!
[10:24] Sleazy Writer: Moon > the fact that the 2 parcels *must* be different seems restrictive to me
[10:24] You: and Sleazy, no - my language is quite more vague actually
[10:24] Jo Sapeur: I think the second paragraph can be omitted
[10:24] ThePrincess Parisi: i agree jo i dont see the point in that
[10:25] Jo Sapeur: "2. No terraforming is permitted"
[10:25] You: yes, Jo
[10:25] You: that's why it is in red
[10:25] You: it actually contradicts the rest of the covenant
[10:25] Sleazy Writer: makes sense if you have +/- 2
[10:25] Jo Sapeur: since the estate managers can put limits on terraforming in the estate menu
[10:25] You: but that's for the RA to vote
[10:25] Jo Sapeur: it's not necessary
[10:26] Jo Sapeur: well
[10:26] You: yes, i think that's a relict from the original covenants of 2005
[10:26] Jo Sapeur: my point is
[10:26] You: when you didn't have that facility in estate tools
[10:26] Jo Sapeur: let's imagine you have cars that can drive at a masimum speed of 50 mph
[10:26] Sleazy Writer: Comments please ---> "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned, [NOTHING ABOUT SIZES]. A person cannot own more than 4096 m2."
[10:26] Jo Sapeur: what would you need 90 mph speed limits for?
[10:27] You: Sleazy, i'll second that
[10:27] ThePrincess Parisi: me too
[10:27] You: so please vote on
[10:27] You: "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned. A person cannot own more than 4096 m2."
[10:27] You: Aye if you agree
[10:28] ThePrincess Parisi: aye
[10:28] Sudane Erato: aye
[10:28] Sleazy Writer: abstain
[10:28] You: aye
[10:28] Sudane Erato: why?
[10:28] You: ehehe if you have proposed it, inded?
[10:28] Jo Sapeur: abstain
[10:28] Sleazy Writer: doesn't matter I asked for comments not a vote
[10:28] Sudane Erato: thats silly
[10:28] ThePrincess Parisi: lol
[10:29] You: Jo, your vote, please?
[10:29] ThePrincess Parisi: she abstained
[10:29] You: ah, sorry
[10:29] You: so, passed
[10:29] Sleazy Writer: OK
[10:29] You: may i propose some language to add to this?
[10:29] You: concerning groups?
[10:30] You: "as for group land restrictions, these will follow the applying legislation of the CDS"
[10:30] You: which sort of throws it back on the RA
[10:30] Sleazy Writer: I'd say: omit it
[10:30] You: but... we can't do anything about group land
[10:31] You: hmmm
[10:31] You: what do you all think?
[10:31] Sudane Erato: seems fine with me
[10:31] Sudane Erato: no harm to it
[10:31] Sleazy Writer: I'm fine with your text too
[10:32] Jo Sapeur: hmm, okay with me
[10:32] You: mind that we can add a safety clause to teh covenant, saying that for all the rest, teh covenant remits to the general CDS legislation
[10:32] Jo Sapeur: I just had a thought on the previous point
[10:32] Jo Sapeur: "Per person a maximum of 2 parcels may be owned. A person cannot own more than 4096 m2."
[10:32] You: yes?
[10:33] Sleazy Writer: (That means that a person with A cannot own more.)
[10:33] Jo Sapeur: I think the limitation on the number of parcels owned could be skipped
[10:33] ThePrincess Parisi: i agree
[10:33] You: well, there were issues about someone collecting all teh D plots
[10:33] Sleazy Writer: I protest .. last meeting the 2 parcels was a compromise between Dnate's position (supported by Jon and others) that there should be a max of 1 per person
[10:33] ThePrincess Parisi: what is the point ?
[10:33] ThePrincess Parisi: oh
[10:33] You: and i think that text concerns that
[10:34] You: and yes to what Sleazy says
[10:34] ThePrincess Parisi: i see now it makes sense
[10:34] ThePrincess Parisi: ok
[10:34] Jo Sapeur: okay
[10:34] Jo Sapeur: I didn't know that
[10:34] You: ok
[10:34] You: yes... the discussions on this are already on more than 60 pages lol
[10:34] You: hard to keep track
[10:34] Sleazy Writer:
[10:34] You: ok guys
[10:34] Sudane Erato: hehe
[10:34] You: so a simple question
[10:35] You: shall we use my language about groups, or Sleazy's omission instead?
[10:35] Sleazy Writer: 85 minutes left
[10:35] You: yes, that's why i want to clse this topic
[10:35] Sudane Erato: Moon, i'm not clear about the question
[10:35] Sleazy Writer: let's vote - on which one?
[10:35] You: Sudane
[10:36] You: let me clarify
[10:36] Sleazy Writer: (my argument is that the covenant text is already pretty long and we can omit this one)
[10:36] You: i am proposing that a clear mention about teh group land shall be ruled by any applying CDS legislation
[10:36] You: Sleazy proposes to omit, as that legislation exists anyway and so it's redundant to quote
[10:37] Sudane Erato: well.... it seems like no one is in disagreemmmnt about the substance
[10:37] You: no, just discussion of form here
[10:37] You: hi Delia
[10:37] ThePrincess Parisi: hi delia
[10:37] Jo Sapeur: hi Delia
[10:37] Sleazy Writer: Hi Delia
[10:38] You: i'll drop my suggestion then
[10:38] You: and it's solved lol
[10:38] You: ok
[10:38] Sudane Erato:
[10:38] Sleazy Writer: next!
[10:38] You: everyone brace yourselves for the tipology discussion
[10:39] Sudane Erato: hehe
[10:39] You: let me introduce teh topic
[10:39] Sudane Erato: I'm braced
[10:39] You: typologies refer to the size of the plots
[10:39] You: so they're A, B, C, D and M
[10:39] You: M=monastery
[10:39] Sudane Erato: hi
[10:39] Delia Lake: hi everyone
[10:40] You: we have ruled out appearances, materials and themes on the sim-wide and zones discussions
[10:40] You: but what we must discuss here is a set of technical features
[10:40] You: which depend on the size of the plot
[10:40] You: such as the allowed height of buildings
[10:40] You: a existing/non-existing border to other plots
[10:41] You: an existing/non-existing rule concerning building footprints/ mandatory garden area
[10:41] You: let's start by allowed height
[10:42] You: since i believe everyone agree that we must rule a maximum height for the builds
[10:42] You: i have approached my suggestion to Sleazy/Tan's
[10:43] You: very briefly
[10:43] Sudane Erato: D plots says: Maximum height for D plots from reference level must not exceed 12m, not counting roofs"....
[10:43] Sudane Erato: ?????
[10:43] You: yes
[10:43] Sudane Erato: not counting roofs??
[10:43] You: 12 m is two storeys
[10:43] You: of 6 metres tall
[10:43] Sudane Erato: roof is the top of a building, right?
[10:43] You: yes, the covering of it
[10:44] Sleazy Writer: incl. the low end of the roof, imo
[10:44] You: the reasoning here is
[10:44] Sudane Erato: that would make the build very hard to measure
[10:44] You: to allow all buildings to have 2 storeys, and the larger plots 3, so that they don't look squashed
[10:44] You: and then a roof be set
[10:45] ThePrincess Parisi: if its a pitched roof do you measure at the side
[10:45] You: hmmm, not particularly so - you can define that height as the line where roof meets wall
[10:45] ThePrincess Parisi: if its ...
[10:45] Sleazy Writer: Hi Audemar - welcome to the covenant meeting for the 3rd sim
[10:45] Sudane Erato: but Moon... that could be a whole range of heights
[10:45] Sudane Erato: few alpine builds will have flat roofs
[10:45] You: what would you suggest then?
[10:45] Sudane Erato: simply state an overall height
[10:46] You: hmmmm
[10:46] ThePrincess Parisi: thats what i was going to say
[10:46] Moon Adamant pulls a calculator
[10:46] ThePrincess Parisi: and two stories if you want
[10:46] Sudane Erato: hehe
[10:46] Delia Lake: isn't there an overall height for NFS?
[10:46] You: well, i must define the storey height
[10:46] Delia Lake: intown anyway
[10:46] You: otherwise people can build two stories 20 m tall each
[10:47] Sleazy Writer: NFS = 20 m ... CN = 20 for much of the city and 30 for the southern most plots
[10:47] ThePrincess Parisi: i mean two stairies and a overall height stated
[10:47] ThePrincess Parisi: stories
[10:48] Sudane Erato: 20 meters is a very high build
[10:48] Sleazy Writer: yes it is
[10:48] Jo Sapeur: IRL
[10:48] Sleazy Writer: I don't want to distract from the question of "how high", but what I'd like to see is defining the heigh at 2 points .. "Hi end" "low end" and setting a max height for both .. relative to the terrain
[10:48] Jo Sapeur: in SL, that's the standard height for many buildings
[10:49] ThePrincess Parisi: wont these have high ptiched roofs and chimineys
[10:49] You: i would like to propose a formula
[10:49] Jo Sapeur: heh, yes Princess
[10:49] Sleazy Writer: The reason for my suggestion is that relating max. height to terrain will encourage building terraced builds instead of Schloss-foundations
[10:49] You: let's consider that the roof has a limit which is the same as if another storey
[10:50] You: so, for C and D plots
[10:50] You: you would have 6+6+6 - 18 metres absolute
[10:50] You: for A and B: 6+6+6+6 - 24 absolute
[10:50] Sleazy Writer: too high in my opinion
[10:50] You: this allows room for having very pitched roofs, i think
[10:51] ThePrincess Parisi: and is it really enogh for th e roof .. ? im not sure
[10:51] You: yes, it is
[10:51] You: sleazy, what about:
[10:51] Delia Lake: but what about the foundation then
[10:51] Delia Lake: if it iw 20 m
[10:52] Sleazy Writer: This School is 30 meters
[10:52] Delia Lake: you have 2 m for foundation
[10:52] Sleazy Writer: use your camera to check the school
[10:52] You: C and D plots must not exceed 2 storeys height, with the maximum height allowed of 18 metres, including roof
[10:52] Sudane Erato: i'm not following the nedd to specify stories
[10:53] Sudane Erato: since that is an internal spec
[10:53] ThePrincess Parisi: does the loft space in the roof count as a story
[10:53] Sudane Erato: its the outside hieght
[10:53] Sudane Erato: that matters
[10:53] Delia Lake: but what about the foundations
[10:53] You: Delia
[10:53] Sleazy Writer: I agree with Moon that B & C (& D) should not exceed 2 storeys
[10:53] Delia Lake: the first floor dosesn't sit on the ground
[10:53] You: we are calculating a level of reference
[10:53] Delia Lake: yes
[10:53] Sudane Erato: Delia, the height should be the height from the ground
[10:54] ThePrincess Parisi: and if its on a slope even more.. or must it be terraced
[10:54] ThePrincess Parisi: ok
[10:54] You: that is the height of where the path to teh house meets the accessing road or alley
[10:54] Delia Lake: so i am saying that here in NFS the 20m allows for the foundation
[10:54] Sleazy Writer: The problem with 20 or 25 m total height is that if someone builds a Versailles (flat like roof) there will not be a pitched roof
[10:55] You: ok, let's try and organize this
[10:55] You: we all agree that we must have limits, right?
[10:55] Delia Lake: and the 18 is not 6m per floor + roof
[10:55] Sudane Erato: yes
[10:55] Delia Lake: yes, we do not want monstrosities
[10:55] Delia Lake: anyway i don't
[10:55] ThePrincess Parisi: yes.. then requrie a pitched roof for snow..
[10:55] Sudane Erato:
[10:55] ThePrincess Parisi: what about towers though
[10:55] You: also, we all agree that there must be a difference between the larger plots and the smaller ones
[10:56] You: seeing that a building which is much wider at the base may need a bit more of height s it doesn't look squashed
[10:56] Sleazy Writer: Delia .. so what you are saying is that in NFS ... 20 m = 2 small storeys + roof + foundation .. right?
[10:56] You: can we build from delia's suggestion?
[10:57] Sleazy Writer: What if we go in the valley and rezz a couple of test prims?
[10:57] You: no
[10:57] You: sorry
[10:57] You: no time
[10:57] Delia Lake: yes, Sleazy
[10:57] Sleazy Writer: OK
[10:57] You: what about proposing hmmm
[10:57] You: 20 m tall for C and D, and 30 m tall for A and B?
[10:58] Sudane Erato: yes!..
[10:58] Sudane Erato: keep it simple
[10:58] You: measured from the reference level
[10:58] ThePrincess Parisi: right..
[10:58] Sudane Erato: or measred from the ground
[10:58] You: yes, but ground where?
[10:58] Sudane Erato: at any given point
[10:59] You: you see that you may have a large variation of ground heights in the larger plots?
[10:59] Delia Lake: in the middle of the building?
[10:59] Sudane Erato: yes, exactly
[10:59] Audemar Negulesco: averagge
[10:59] Sudane Erato: so that the build higher up can go hgiher than the build lower down
[10:59] You: at the main door step?
[10:59] Delia Lake: not the door
[10:59] Sleazy Writer: I prefer "may not exceed 20 m at any point" .. so the builders checks it where he has his roof or foundation and that's it
[11:00] You: no Sleazy, you can't have that that way
[11:00] Sleazy Writer: because?
[11:00] Delia Lake: because if someone put the door at the highest point of land, they could have a 30m+ building
[11:00] You: because you may need to add foundation or the building will float
[11:00] Sleazy Writer: OK, makes sense
[11:00] ThePrincess Parisi: sleazy wants terraced builds
[11:01] Sleazy Writer: then how would you encourage terraced builds Moon?
[11:01] Sleazy Writer: or do you prefer chunky Schloss boxes?
[11:01] You: i am thinking
[11:01] ThePrincess Parisi: i agree with sleazy
[11:01] You: perhaps this
[11:01] Delia Lake: if you have the measure in the middle of the building, then the part on the lower of the slope will be more than 20 and the part on the upper will be less than 20
[11:01] Audemar Negulesco: cant you say at the average point betweein the highest and lowest point?
[11:01] Sudane Erato: if you measure from "any given point", then terraced builds would be easy
[11:01] You: well Audemar, this is a high slope
[11:02] You: yes, i believe Sudane is nearer the anser
[11:02] You: what about
[11:02] You: from any lower floor?
[11:02] Sleazy Writer: Sudane, what do you mean with "any given point" ... any can mean a lot!
[11:02] ThePrincess Parisi: do you mean no more than at any point
[11:02] You: meaning i can have several lower floors, but the height above them is always X
[11:02] Sudane Erato: at any given point on the terrain, the build cannot be more than 20 m over it
[11:03] Sleazy Writer: yes I like that .. I support Sudane
[11:03] ThePrincess Parisi: me too
[11:03] You: and me as well
[11:03] Audemar Negulesco: yes
[11:03] You: so guys, hmmm
[11:03] Sleazy Writer: so that's the words .. now the numbers
[11:03] Delia Lake: then you would have terraced buildings that followed the terrain??
[11:03] You: 20 for C and D
[11:03] Sudane Erato: yes
[11:03] You: yes Delia
[11:04] You: becuas eif teh terrain falls down, then you can build lower and have again 20 metres height
[11:04] Sleazy Writer: giving D a max heigh is moot .. the buildings are pre-fabs
[11:04] You: hmmm, better give them
[11:04] Sleazy Writer: or I mean: our own beautiful builds
[11:04] You: don't forget that they can be waivered
[11:04] Sudane Erato: hehe
[11:05] You: of course, you can waiver the build height too, but it's hmmm a warning
[11:05] You: 24 meters for A and B
[11:05] Sleazy Writer: Look guys .. I have no problem with 30 meter if they build a pointy roof like the School .. but there will be *no* rule for pointry roofs .. so it could just be a box as heigh as the top of the roof of this school
[11:06] You: hmmm better give it a bit more - 26 m?
[11:06] ThePrincess Parisi: it shoudl be a roof that would be appropriate fro snow and the terraine.. doesnt it say taht
[11:06] You: it does above in the appearnce etc
[11:06] You: says it's alpine, etc
[11:06] ThePrincess Parisi:
[11:07] You: guys, 20 for C and D and 26 for A nad B?
[11:07] Sleazy Writer: Schloss Neuschwannstein is in the alps
[11:07] Moon Adamant lloks at the clock
[11:07] Avatar Online HUD 1.3a (WEAR ME!): Loading avatar-data... (avatar-UUID-list (EDIT ME))
[11:08] Sleazy Writer: OK, let's vote
[11:08] Delia Lake: i am still trying to visualize this..
[11:08] Delia Lake: take plot DH6 fro instance
[11:08] Delia Lake: it is one f the smaller plots
[11:08] Delia Lake: and on the slope
[11:08] Sleazy Writer: Delia .. I rezzed 2 prims .. 20 meters in total to the west of this School
[11:08] You: yes
[11:09] You: what matters is the lowest leve possible
[11:09] Delia Lake: so that plot would either have a 2 part house with each being 20m tall
[11:09] You: on that point, they can build 20 m above
[11:09] You: yes
[11:09] Delia Lake: above what
[11:09] Delia Lake: or it would have an upper part with 1 floor
[11:09] Sleazy Writer: Now I've rezzed 25 meters to the west of the school
[11:09] You: above that point
[11:09] Sleazy Writer: 26 now
[11:10] You: Sleazy
[11:10] You: 26 m is 18 meters in storeys, plus 8 meters to be divided between foundation and roof
[11:10] Delia Lake: ok
[11:11] Delia Lake: well
[11:11] Delia Lake: i am thinking of my plot 260 here
[11:11] Sleazy Writer: this is 6 meter .. for a story
[11:11] Delia Lake: i have almost 10 m of foundation in the front
[11:11] Delia Lake: because of the slope
[11:11] You: yes Delia
[11:11] You: but in AM
[11:12] You: you could build another floor say half of that
[11:12] You: and from that lower floor, build again the tota height
[11:13] ThePrincess Parisi: does taht count as a story ... the loft and these have roofs that seemsto be higher than the floors
[11:15] You: this is Sudane's suggestion
[11:16] You: the total heightis the red height
[11:16] You: as you can see
[11:16] Sleazy Writer: uhm .. Audemar .. I think you're sitting on someone
[11:16] You: at each intersection point with the terrain
[11:16] You: you can add a bit more of height
[11:16] Sudane Erato: yes
[11:16] You: so that you always have the total height
[11:17] You: but you always have terraces
[11:17] Sudane Erato: or a slopy roof
[11:17] You: yes whatever
[11:18] You: so can we please vote on this?
[11:18] Sudane Erato: yes!
[11:18] Sleazy Writer: yes please
[11:18] You: let me think of the language
[11:18] You: hmmm
[11:19] You: 'At any given point on plots A and B, the maximum height of the builds is 26 m above the intersection with ground'
[11:20] You: 'At any given point in plots C and D, the maximum height of builds is 20 m above the intersection of the build with teh ground'
[11:20] You: any amend?
[11:20] Sleazy Writer: 'above the ground' <-- what's wrong with that?
[11:20] Sudane Erato: Moon's statement is clearer
[11:20] Sleazy Writer: okay, sounds good
[11:20] You: yes, teh second is clearer, actually
[11:21] You: ok, all agreeing please say 'Aye'
[11:21] Sleazy Writer: aye
[11:21] MT Lundquist: abstain
[11:21] ThePrincess Parisi: abstain
[11:21] Sudane Erato: aye
[11:21] Jo Sapeur: nay
[11:21] Audemar Negulesco: aye
[11:21] Sleazy Writer: (hah!, there you go Moon .. complications complications!)
[11:21] Delia Lake: aye
[11:22] You: aye
[11:22] You: anyone missing to vote?
[11:22] Sleazy Writer: I'm curious about the nay & abstains .. please send me an IM
[11:23] You: ok, i have 4 Yes, 3 Abstains, 1 Nay
[11:23] You: passed
[11:23] Sudane Erato: yay!
[11:23] You: ok
[11:23] You: let me introduce the next topic: borders
[11:23] You: the proposal is that each plot has a defended border to any bordering plot
[11:24] You: last meeting, there were tow main stances on this
[11:24] You: people insisting on borders
[11:24] You: and people who don't want borders
[11:24] You: i personally insist on borders, though the last meeting i found difficult to explain why
[11:25] You: but since then, i am prepared to make an apology on borders
[11:25] Arria Perreault: Hi
[11:25] ThePrincess Parisi: hi arria
[11:25] You: so if anyone wishes to speak against having borders, please speak
[11:25] Sudane Erato: hi
[11:25] Sleazy Writer: hi!
[11:25] You: hi Arria
[11:25] MT Lundquist: hi arria
[11:26] Delia Lake: would you please define defended borders
[11:26] Audemar Negulesco: sorry i must go rl
[11:26] ThePrincess Parisi: im not sure eitehr
[11:26] Delia Lake: hi Arria
[11:26] ThePrincess Parisi: good bye audenar
[11:26] Sudane Erato: bye audemar
[11:26] You: being a strip of terrain in which you must not build anything
[11:26] Sleazy Writer: we put barbed wire around each plot
[11:26] MT Lundquist: bye
[11:26] You: but you can place gardens, trees, etc
[11:26] Sleazy Writer: bye
[11:26] ThePrincess Parisi: and landmines
[11:26] Sleazy Writer: hahah!
[11:26] Sleazy Writer: and crocs
[11:26] Sudane Erato: hehe
[11:26] Delia Lake: right, Sleazy
[11:26] Sleazy Writer shuts up now
[11:27] ThePrincess Parisi: common area between each property basically?
[11:27] ThePrincess Parisi: in rl we have that where i live
[11:27] You: yes, but belonging to each owner
[11:27] Sudane Erato: yes... i think borders are essential
[11:27] Delia Lake: small greenspace/walkways
[11:27] You: yes, this is a common rule in urban law
[11:27] Sudane Erato: its just common decency to your neighbor
[11:28] ThePrincess Parisi: and for the animals to travel
[11:28] You: what i thought was
[11:28] Sudane Erato:
[11:28] You: the existence of borders allows all citizens an equal footing
[11:28] Delia Lake: ah...cow and goat paths )
[11:28] ThePrincess Parisi: i like it
[11:28] You: imagine a case
[11:28] ThePrincess Parisi: well coyotes
[11:29] You: i am the citizen in C1 and i don't have a border rule
[11:29] You: so i build to the limit of my plot
[11:29] You: all my walls have windows
[11:29] You: now comes my neighbour in C2
[11:29] You: he also builds to the limits of his plot
[11:30] You: and he has windows also, which look inside MY windows
[11:30] Delia Lake: more like NYC than alps then
[11:30] ThePrincess Parisi: lol
[11:30] You: and blank walls, which cover MY windows
[11:30] You: so, i have a source of conflict there
[11:30] You: but if both have a border
[11:30] ThePrincess Parisi: so each lot woudl have a zone .. one you can build and one where you cant
[11:31] You: then each neighbour is free to build windows etc without disturbing the other
[11:31] Sudane Erato: yes... its usually defined as a minimum distance from the parcel line
[11:31] You: indeed
[11:31] You: my draft proposes that borders only apply to where you have a neighbouring plot
[11:32] You: and proposes 2 meters for C plots
[11:32] ThePrincess Parisi: and the border is simply land on which one cannot build?
[11:32] You: and 4 meters to A and B plots
[11:32] Sudane Erato: yes
[11:32] ThePrincess Parisi: i likeit
[11:32] You: yes, but you can plant trees, make a garden, etc
[11:32] ThePrincess Parisi: srue but no buildings like prim land now
[11:32] ThePrincess Parisi: but it spreads it out
[11:32] Dnate Mars: But there are no bordering plots to any of the As
[11:32] Sleazy Writer: Hi Dnate!
[11:32] You: ah, hi Dnate
[11:32] Delia Lake: and D plots?
[11:33] Delia Lake: hi Dnate
[11:33] Dnate Mars: (sorry I am late)
[11:33] You: and yes, this reflects a change i made, i had a border too to roads, but i let it drop as confusing
[11:33] You: Delia, D plots will be special plots built by the Guild
[11:33] Sleazy Writer: I tried a worst case scenario last week ... 2 high buildings of 25 meters .. and 8 meters (2 x 4) in between ... the result was "a normal alley" between two high walls of the height of the Emporium .. or something like that ..
[11:33] Delia Lake: ok
[11:33] You: and they have no borders, as they will be rows
[11:33] Dnate Mars: Wait, even the DH will be prebuilt?
[11:34] Dnate Mars: (and DS)
[11:34] You: possibly, not sure there
[11:34] You: but i would suppose so
[11:34] Delia Lake: DS? i don't see any
[11:34] You: it's more important about the monastery ones, but i suppose you can recycle them for the lower plots
[11:35] Sleazy Writer: DS = D--plot near the small lake
[11:35] Delia Lake: i see
[11:36] You: mind also that the terrain drops, which this map doesn't really show
[11:36] Sleazy Writer: oh that helps a lot
[11:37] Sleazy Writer: time for a vote?
[11:37] You: ok guys, shall we vote?
[11:37] You: hmmm
[11:37] You: let me prepare the language
[11:37] Sleazy Writer: I think Moon's 2 x 4 meter is only to turn a "nightmare" into a "worst case" .. you can't solve the problem of a nasty neighbour but you can make it less and that seems good
[11:38] Sleazy Writer: let's include theC & D plots in this vote
[11:39] You: "For all plots except D plots, there will be a border on the sides where the plots meet another. This border of no construction is of 4 metres for A and B plots, and of 2 m for C plots. The borders can have trees of small gardens."
[11:39] Sudane Erato: great
[11:39] You: is this clear?
[11:39] Dnate Mars: Yes
[11:39] You: ok, all agreeing say Aye
[11:39] Dnate Mars: Aye
[11:39] Delia Lake: aye
[11:39] Sudane Erato: aye
[11:39] MT Lundquist: aye
[11:40] Sleazy Writer: mooo
[11:40] ThePrincess Parisi: aye
[11:40] Sudane Erato: moooo?
[11:40] ThePrincess Parisi: lol
[11:40] Sleazy Writer: aye .. :-/
[11:40] You: aye
[11:40] Jo Sapeur: abstain
[11:40] Arria Perreault: aye
[11:41] You: already passed, anyone missing the vote please do so for teh record
[11:41] You: ok guys
[11:41] You: last topic before discussing and voting teh whole text
[11:42] You: shall we make a rule that makes people only build up to a percentage of teh plot area (so that they don't overfill the plot)
[11:42] You: or shall we make a rule saying that the plots need to have a x area of gardens?
[11:42] You: or no rules regarding this?
[11:42] You: mind that
[11:43] You: in teh case we set any rule here, teh border rule just passed should have precedence
[11:43] Sudane Erato: well, both rules would always apply
[11:43] You: meaning, that if i can build on a plot to any limit, i must still perserve the border
[11:43] Sudane Erato: yes
[11:43] You: preserve*
[11:43] You: while you think on this, i'll go get a glass of water
[11:44] Sleazy Writer: would the %-build rule only apply to buildings?
[11:44] ThePrincess Parisi: i have a question
[11:44] Sleazy Writer: not to gazebo's, wells, gardensheds?
[11:44] Dnate Mars: So the footprint of a building would be set to a max?
[11:44] You: well, if we propose a garden rule, i would allow gazebos, pavillions, etc, if they preserve the border rule
[11:44] ThePrincess Parisi: what if you own the two plots side by side.. can you expand the border area aroudn what you own
[11:44] ThePrincess Parisi: so you can build in the middle
[11:45] You: hmmm, that would require a waiver
[11:45] You: but why not?
[11:46] You: mind that we are ruling out only general rules here
[11:46] You: specific cases must be dealt with specifically
[11:46] You: what i want to know here is
[11:46] You: do you think that the border rule is enough as limits on building?
[11:46] Sleazy Writer: wouldn't that be an 'easy waiver'?
[11:47] Sleazy Writer: (re - 2 plots like Princess mentioned)
[11:47] You: or do you think that there should be further restrictions?
[11:47] You: Sleazy, like i said
[11:47] You: that is a waiver that doesn't fall inside the scope of the covenants
[11:47] Sudane Erato: well, in SLNE you cannot build on any more than one seventh of your parcel
[11:48] Sudane Erato: but people would probably not support that here
[11:48] Sleazy Writer: but SLNE is not double primmed
[11:48] Dnate Mars: don't forget, we are already really having 1/2 size plots to begin with
[11:48] ThePrincess Parisi: and there is common area to start wth in the build
[11:48] Sudane Erato: so... two sevenths
[11:48] Delia Lake: that seems to be too small a build area for a smaller plot
[11:49] Sleazy Writer: 1/7 applied to 1/2-sizedp lots means a bit more than 1/3rd
[11:49] ThePrincess Parisi: i think the border rule is enough
[11:49] You: i should refer that some people on thios group (who aren't here today) may oppose any limits to footprint and mandatory gardens, on the reasoning that the sim already has an extensive commons
[11:49] Sleazy Writer: oh .. my math is probalby wrong
[11:49] Dnate Mars: I would tend to agree with that
[11:49] You: it's is only fair that their pov is also mentioned
[11:49] You: hmmm
[11:50] You: shall we vote partially then for a start?
[11:50] Dnate Mars: We have already taken away 8 meters on a side
[11:50] Sleazy Writer: that's only a tiny 4m strip
[11:50] You: voting on the existence of footprints/gardens?
[11:50] Dnate Mars: yes, but to each side
[11:51] Dnate Mars: 8m a side
[11:51] You: hmmm, no, 8m total
[11:51] You: 4+4
[11:51] Delia Lake: but those strips are between the plots, it looks, not part of them
[11:51] You: no, they are deducted from the plots
[11:51] Dnate Mars: er, a dimension
[11:51] Sleazy Writer: no, the strips are part of the plots
[11:51] Delia Lake: ok
[11:52] You: the graphical representation of the map is just for aesthetics
[11:52] Dnate Mars: so, that is 64sqm of no build...
[11:52] You: ehehe on 2048 m, if a B plot
[11:52] You: Dnate, i am not going to discuss again the border rule
[11:53] Sleazy Writer: okay .. so if we give more footprint than SLNE .. and say "you can build 50%" .. then A plots would have room equal to Rose's office to use all their 1900 prims
[11:53] You: hmmm
[11:53] You: let me ask you a question that doesn't pertain to the covenants proper
[11:53] Sleazy Writer: and B plots would have 50% of Rose's office to use their 950 prims ... Just to visualize
[11:53] Dnate Mars: I am just saying, we are already taking away building area, and I think that is enough
[11:53] You: but must be asked
[11:53] You: 50% area is perhaps a commercial hmmm risk?
[11:54] Sleazy Writer: could be
[11:54] Sleazy Writer: what sounds like a normal number to you?
[11:54] Moon Adamant warns Pat that she's going to be late
[11:54] You: well hmmm
[11:54] Delia Lake: what are you considering to be building?
[11:54] ThePrincess Parisi: you can say a percentage of land that can be built on .. and include the borders in the non builit
[11:54] You: i don't understand much (close to nil, actually) of land sales in SL
[11:54] Sleazy Writer: TP > of course
[11:55] Dnate Mars: I would say that we don't place a limit on the structure's footprint
[11:55] ThePrincess Parisi: i think we need to say taht
[11:55] Sleazy Writer: SLNE does sleek marketing it seems to me .. when I listen to their radio I it makes me wanna buy land .. but 1/7th is very restrictive!
[11:55] You: iRL, and here at least, you ALWAYS have a footprint (not that everyone follows it)
[11:55] Delia Lake: would for instance, my patio behind my office be considered a building? it has a floor but no walls or roof
[11:55] ThePrincess Parisi: AT 1 coudl build to the border then
[11:56] Sleazy Writer: Dnate?
[11:56] Sleazy Writer: (I'd so: no)
[11:56] ThePrincess Parisi: delia.. id say yes
[11:56] Dnate Mars: I would say no
[11:56] You: well, Delia, iRL, only covered areas count for footprint
[11:56] ThePrincess Parisi: tomato
[11:56] Dnate Mars: the footprint would only include area's that are enclosed
[11:56] You: yes, enclosed describes it better
[11:57] Delia Lake: ok
[11:57] ThePrincess Parisi: i disagree
[11:57] Sleazy Writer: Arria, say something!
[11:57] You: ah, mind also another thing
[11:57] Sleazy Writer: I have the feeling that "you can only build 75%" is acceptable to people
[11:57] Dnate Mars: I know iRL, squarefootage only includes enclosed areas
[11:57] You: if we follow the NFS covenant
[11:58] You: there is a rule of 3 trees per 512 m2 of area
[11:58] You: i am thinking here
[11:58] ThePrincess Parisi: i like it sleezy
[11:58] ThePrincess Parisi: but then you have concrete on teh rest ? dnate
[11:58] Sleazy Writer: Moon > Let's ignore the trees rule for now ..
[11:58] You: perhaps that rule will make people make gardens? thus solving this footprint issue?
[11:58] Dnate Mars: I would admend that in this sim to include trees or grass
[11:58] ThePrincess Parisi: i think build is anything not grazss or snow
[11:59] You: guys, we're starting to fall over the RA hour
[11:59] ThePrincess Parisi: thanks i have to go
[11:59] You: not only we have Reps here who will need to go to the RA, as we need to finish
[11:59] Sleazy Writer: thanks primcess
[11:59] Jo Sapeur: hmm... same here
[11:59] You: thanks Princess
[12:00] Sleazy Writer: Moon you build sims .. Sudane you have sims .. pick a number please
[12:00] Dnate Mars: If we define a footprint to only include the enclosed structure, I think that 50% is a fair number. patio's garndens, or any other open space area is not included
[12:00] Sudane Erato: so then... 50%
[12:00] You: Dnate, if i was going t set a rule
[12:00] You: i would set it in this way instead
[12:00] You: mandatory garden areas
[12:01] You: because it's easier to understand
[12:01] Dnate Mars: (I really don't like mandatory items)
[12:01] Jo Sapeur: take care everyone!
[12:01] You: and gardens can have gazebos, pavillions, etc, as long as they fall within the height and border rules
[12:01] ThePrincess Parisi: eveything counts
[12:01] You: well, footprint is mandatory too lol
[12:01] Jo Sapeur waves and poofs
[12:01] Arria Perreault: bye bye Joe
[12:01] ThePrincess Parisi: gtg
[12:02] Sudane Erato: bye Jo
[12:02] Sleazy Writer: bye Jo
[12:02] Dnate Mars: What size do we make said gardens
[12:02] You: but i do honestly think that is easier to understand that you must have a garden than to calculate enclosed footprints
[12:02] You: the inverse of the footprint then, whatever that is
[12:02] Sleazy Writer: I support that, it sounds a lot nicer
[12:03] Dnate Mars: So, a "garden" can be anything, including nothing? As long as it is open area?
[12:03] MT Lundquist: sorry i have to go to
[12:03] Sleazy Writer: see you later
[12:03] You: eheh, don't forget that you may have a rule for 3 trees for every 512 m2
[12:03] You: and so you'll get those at least on that space
[12:04] Dnate Mars: except for the D p[lots
[12:04] Dnate Mars: ok, I can agree with that
[12:04] Sleazy Writer: okay .... A = 4096 = 8 * 3 = 24 trees ...... B = 12 trees ... C = 6 trees (you can even have small ones)
[12:04] Dnate Mars: (I have to get to this RA meeting too)
[12:04] You: yes, D plots don't have teh tree rule
[12:04] Dnate Mars: I can agree to that
[12:05] You: do we have numbers then?
[12:05] Dnate Mars: 50% open space?
[12:05] You: for minimal garden area?
[12:05] Sudane Erato: the numbers you have there already
[12:05] Sudane Erato: ?
[12:05] You: i think that there would be an interest to difference between A, B and C
[12:06] You: uh, not even i trust my numbers lol
[12:06] Sudane Erato: hehe
[12:06] Sleazy Writer: focusssss
[12:06] You: they're more of a suggestion on how to difference teh plots than anything else
[12:06] Dnate Mars: (I really have to go)
[12:06] You: ok Dnate
[12:06] You: gaaah, nobody else can go!
[12:06] Sleazy Writer: shit .. we really need to vote on this!
[12:06] Sudane Erato: hehe
[12:07] You: because i close the meetings at 3 people left
[12:07] You: drat
[12:07] Sleazy Writer: Well ... seeing that Dnate doesn't like footprint at all .. and having the impression that Moon sees it as something basic .. maybe Sudane's 50% isn't a bad number at all
[12:08] You: uh
[12:08] Sudane Erato: Dnate agreed to 50%
[12:08] Sleazy Writer: oh
[12:08] You: hmmm
[12:08] You: mind that i would prefer to see a garden on each plot
[12:08] You: but
[12:08] Sleazy Writer: we'll formulate it in reverse .. 50% garden
[12:08] You: i think that 50% is too much
[12:08] Sleazy Writer: instead of 50% footprint for building
[12:09] You: wb?
[12:09] Dnate Mars: Back
[12:09] Sleazy Writer: good!
[12:09] Sudane Erato:
[12:09] Sleazy Writer: 40% still allows a decent dungeon on the A plots and a decent mega-cottage on the B & C plots
[12:10] You: i am really dependent on the commerical instincts of thos epresent here
[12:10] Dnate Mars: Once question, how can we enforce this?
[12:10] Sleazy Writer: this rule will be contested anyway .. if people get pissed of and present a petition to their rep -- we (this group of people) can't predict that anyway
[12:10] You: ehehe how can you enforce anything ?
[12:10] Sudane Erato: i don't think this is a commercial issue
[12:10] Sudane Erato: the land values in SLNNNN, with the one seventh rule, are astronomical
[12:10] Dnate Mars: If we have the rule, we have to be able to enforce it..
[12:11] You: how does Sudane enforce it in SLNE? then
[12:11] Dnate Mars: How do you handle it Sudane?
[12:11] Sudane Erato: we have a committee
[12:11] Sudane Erato: which reviews each build
[12:11] Sleazy Writer: wich we didn't vote for if I remember correctly
[12:11] Sudane Erato: BEFORE it is placed
[12:11] You: yes ehehe
[12:11] Sudane Erato: you build at 500 meters high
[12:12] Sleazy Writer: so for us it will probably be a guildeline to the owner/builder ... and a basis for conflict resolution if conflicts arise (not likely but we had Carolyn)
[12:12] Dnate Mars: This footprint rule doesn't apply to the skyboxes, does it?
[12:12] You: no
[12:12] Sleazy Writer: non-issue
[12:12] You: ok guys
[12:12] You: i am not comfy with 50%
[12:13] You: specially for C plots
[12:13] Dnate Mars: 60%, like everything else it is the Exec that decides how to enforce it
[12:13] You: because you see
[12:13] Dnate Mars: er, 40% garden
[12:13] You: C plots have 32*32 m, which means that you'd only build 16*16
[12:13] Sleazy Writer: no it's bad for the C plots
[12:14] You: so C plots must have 25% gardens max, i think
[12:14] Dnate Mars: If you really want to know what I think, I think we should only have this rule in place for the A and B plots
[12:14] You: even A and B hmmm
[12:14] You: but i am willing to go with you on that
[12:14] You: but please difference the plots by sizes
[12:15] Dnate Mars: Leave C and D at the border limits
[12:15] Sleazy Writer: sounds good
[12:15] You: ok, Dnate, i can agree with that
[12:15] Sleazy Writer: the CN side is a hamlet anyway
[12:15] You: A nd B?
[12:15] Dnate Mars: 40% open garden space for A and B?
[12:15] You: 40%?
[12:16] You: shall we vote then?
[12:16] Sleazy Writer: acceptable to me .. I'm willing to accept other things too
[12:16] You: let me get the language hmmm
[12:17] Sleazy Writer: are you awake Arria?
[12:18] You: "Plots A and B must have an open area for garden or woods not inferior to 40% of the area of the plot. The border area counst for these 40%. These areas can feature small builds like gazebos and pavillions, as long as they comply with the border and height rules."
[12:18] You: if you agree, vote Aye
[12:18] Sudane Erato: aye
[12:18] Dnate Mars: Aye
[12:18] You: Delia, Sleazy, Arria?
[12:18] Delia Lake: aye
[12:18] Sleazy Writer: aye
[12:18] You: and aye as well
[12:19] Sleazy Writer: (they can always tweak it or set it on fire)
[12:19] You: passed, Arria please vote later on lol
[12:19] You: ok, one small issue
[12:19] You: tree rule, 3 trees per 512 m2 of plot area, for plots A and B
[12:19] You: shall we set this rule?
[12:20] Sudane Erato: far too few... but lets approve it
[12:20] You: more trees? less trees?
[12:20] You: we can increase teh number of trees
[12:20] Sudane Erato: thats what the other sims are
[12:20] Delia Lake: i would hope that people would put more trees
[12:20] You: 5 trees?
[12:20] Sudane Erato: yes
[12:20] You: that makes hmmm
[12:20] Dnate Mars: no, too many
[12:20] You: lol, 4?
[12:20] You: let's vote on 4 as a compromise then
[12:21] Dnate Mars: 4 then
[12:21] Arria Perreault: i have read and i vote aye
[12:21] You: ok, language
[12:21] Sleazy Writer: AM is a valley ... NFS has a valley .. the NFS valley has 4 trees .. let's go for 4
[12:21] Dnate Mars: I agree, 4 is good
[12:21] You: "Plots A and B must feature no less than 4 trees per each 512m2 of plot area"
[12:21] You: All agreeing, vote Aye
[12:21] Dnate Mars: Aye
[12:21] Sleazy Writer: aye
[12:21] Sudane Erato: aye
[12:21] Delia Lake: aye
[12:21] You: aye
[12:21] You: passed, still waiting for Arria
[12:21] You: ok, guys
[12:22] You: now, do give me 3 minutes
[12:22] You: while i incorporate the new language on the draft
[12:22] Dnate Mars clicks start on stopwatch
[12:22] You: and next we will vote the draft
[12:23] Arria Perreault: aye
[12:25] Sleazy Writer: while Moon types the text .. maybe we can give it some thought of how the pictures of the chateaux and cottages/chalets/.. should be referred to in the covenant
[12:27] Arria Perreault: we could prepare some models
[12:28] Sleazy Writer: small buildings as examples?
[12:28] Dnate Mars: I don't know if this has been brought up in the past, but when are we planning on buying the sim?
[12:28] Sleazy Writer: as soon as the RA give its OK and a certain % of pre-sales is done I think
[12:28] Dnate Mars: and do we have the funding all set also?
[12:28] Sudane Erato: the funding is fine if we have some pre-sales
[12:29] Sleazy Writer: like .. end of this month? or in the 1st week of December?
[12:29] Arria Perreault: inclusive Monastery
[12:29] Sleazy Writer: oh that helps!
[12:29] Sleazy Writer: And how much is "some presales"?
[12:29] Dnate Mars: We are we going to start having presales?
[12:30] Sudane Erato: let's say one third?
[12:30] You: ok, guys, please read the draft
[12:30] Sleazy Writer: D > I'd say as soon as the RA approves covenant and parcel prices
[12:30] You: by clicking on the cube that says Moon's draft
[12:30] Dnate Mars: (that is today, right?
[12:30] You: i hope so
[12:30] Sleazy Writer: Moon, there is one thing that hasn't been voted on
[12:31] You: Sudane, please send me again that URL of the financial plan
[12:31] Sudane Erato: looks good Moon!
[12:31] You: so i can get it in the cube
[12:31] Sudane Erato: ahh... ok
[12:31] You: sleazy, yes
[12:31] You: what is it?
[12:31] Sleazy Writer: The lines like this : "The builds in this plot can be any kind of alpine structure, except chateaux. " hasn't been voted on yet
[12:31] Sleazy Writer: On which parcels do we want to allow 'chateaux'
[12:32] You: mind that i added text to the skybox clause, clarifying that they can't exceed plot limits too
[12:32] You: A and B
[12:32] Sleazy Writer: who voted on that?
[12:32] You: nobody yet, we discussed it but not voted, i think you're right
[12:32] You: let's discuss it briefly?
[12:32] Sudane Erato: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... qSY_ri45AA
[12:33] Sleazy Writer: ty
[12:33] Sudane Erato: thats the finances
[12:33] You: ty
[12:33] Arria Perreault: ty
[12:33] Sudane Erato: refer specifically to Proposal #4
[12:33] Sudane Erato: the others are not relevant
[12:33] You: ok
[12:33] You: about chateaus
[12:33] You: chateaux*
[12:34] You: we are propsing that we don't allow chateaux on teh C plots, because they're too small
[12:34] Sleazy Writer: My point is: How many chateaux do we want to permit? This sim proposal is not "about cheateaux" .. A plots = max. 2 chateaux. A + B = max. 6 cheateaux ... A + B + C = max 10 cheateaux
[12:34] You: Rose pointe dout how did we define chateaux
[12:34] Arria Perreault: i have just a remark: Central europe means area of countries like Tcheck Republik, Hungary, ...
[12:34] You: oh Arria, we discussed that the other day
[12:34] Sleazy Writer: Personally I cannot accept more than 4 chateaux ... more than 1 castle-like building on a 256x256 m plot of land is already absurd
[12:34] You: i had western europe, and it was corrected
[12:35] Arria Perreault: it's just a vocabulary question
[12:35] Arria Perreault: it could be ambiguous
[12:35] You: ehehe the thing is that you have several definitions there
[12:35] Arria Perreault: with this expression, you can have Dracula castle in the sim
[12:35] You: for instance, western europe can refer to only Iberian peninsula, and teh British isles
[12:35] Dnate Mars: that would be cool!
[12:36] Sleazy Writer: Also .. limiting chateaux to 4 or 2 does not mean we're taking away people's imagination .. people can use B plots to build luxurious villa like Chalets .. Palazzo like rural houses .. buganlow that fit the theme .. But more than 4 castle-liek buildings in a 256x256 sized plot is just plainly absurd
[12:36] You: i agree with Sleazy on this
[12:36] You: other opinions?
[12:36] Dnate Mars: Let's just limit those to the A plots?
[12:37] Sleazy Writer: A plots = 2 chateaux will be seen as restrictive to some ... I like it but I'm sure some will find it restrictive ... But 6 is too much.
[12:37] Dnate Mars: Well, too bad for them
[12:37] You: lol
[12:37] Dnate Mars: we we expand we can have more
[12:37] Sleazy Writer: *if* we choose 4 of them, .. let's make it AT1, AH2, BS1, BS2
[12:38] Dnate Mars: I don't like having 4 in a row on the west side like that
[12:38] Arria Perreault: resemble alpine (mountain) styles of Central Europe -> resemble alpine (mountain) styles of Europe
[12:38] Dnate Mars: I say stick with just he A plots
[12:38] Sleazy Writer: I can certainly live with that
[12:38] Arria Perreault: no "Central"
[12:38] Sleazy Writer: does that mean no to BS1 and BS2?
[12:38] You: Arria, we discussed Europe also, and found that you could have mediterranean and iberian styles then
[12:39] Sleazy Writer: nevermind .. Arria confuses me
[12:39] You: but if anyone seconds you, we can revote
[12:39] You: guys, in what do we stand
[12:39] You: just As?
[12:39] Dnate Mars: I am in favor of just he 2 A plots
[12:39] Sleazy Writer: I support that
[12:40] Dnate Mars: it keeps it easy also.
[12:40] You: i find it a bit unfair to allow chateaux in some plots and not on others that are equivalent
[12:40] You: so shall we vote?
[12:40] Sleazy Writer: please explain?
[12:40] Dnate Mars: no special rules for some b lots
[12:40] Delia Lake: in the US, we think of Central Europe as the eastern states also
[12:40] You: no explanations!
[12:40] Sleazy Writer: OK!
[12:40] You: i already have Pat IMing me
[12:40] Dnate Mars: lol
[12:40] Sleazy Writer: Dnate is right about expanding
[12:40] Sleazy Writer: that's what a democracy is for .. let them campaign
[12:41] Arria Perreault: in Europe, Switzerland is not in Central europe
[12:41] You: let's vote then for
[12:41] Sleazy Writer: march across the mini continent
[12:41] You: "All plots can feature any kind of alpine structure, but only A plots can feature chateaux"
[12:41] You: all agreeing vote Aye
[12:41] Dnate Mars: Aye
[12:41] Sleazy Writer: aye
[12:41] Arria Perreault: aye
[12:41] You: aye
[12:41] Sudane Erato: aye
[12:42] You: thanks
[12:42] Sleazy Writer: "a chateau" ... because with an X it is multiple
[12:42] Sleazy Writer:
[12:42] You: two questions
[12:42] Sleazy Writer: ty
[12:42] You: 1. does anyone second Arria's motion?
[12:42] You: 2. does anyone care to vote on any other specific item?
[12:42] Sleazy Writer: drop the word central?
[12:42] Dnate Mars: Didn't we go through this once?
[12:42] Sleazy Writer: (2) --> no
[12:42] Arria Perreault: i propose to write only "Europe"
[12:42] Arria Perreault: without Central
[12:43] Dnate Mars: I think the meaning is clear without changing it
[12:43] Sleazy Writer: sorry but I like it as it is : nay to Arria this time
[12:43] Arria Perreault: i really don't agree
[12:44] Arria Perreault: erase one word and you have a scientific correctness
[12:44] Dnate Mars: saying europe is to unrestricive
[12:44] Arria Perreault: what add this word "Central"?
[12:44] Sleazy Writer abstains
[12:44] Arria Perreault: It can only make more confusion
[12:44] Delia Lake: alpine europe would work?
[12:44] Sudane Erato: yes, alpine europe
[12:44] You: i will have to abstain too, Arria, for two reasons, one is that we already voted this, but i was giving you a fair chance to re-open it if anyone seconded it
[12:45] Arria Perreault: it's better
[12:45] You: ok, does then anyone second?
[12:45] Sleazy Writer: abstain
[12:45] Sudane Erato: i second alpine europe
[12:45] You: ok
[12:45] You: votes for then every mention of central Europe passing to alpine europe
[12:45] Sudane Erato: aye
[12:46] Delia Lake: aye
[12:46] Dnate Mars: can I have a minute?
[12:46] Arria Perreault: aye
[12:46] Sleazy Writer listens
[12:46] Dnate Mars: Aye
[12:46] You: abstain and passed
[12:46] You: ok, wjile i correct this
[12:46] You: please re-read and prepare for the overall vote
[12:47] Arria Perreault: ty
[12:47] Sudane Erato: aye
[12:47] Sleazy Writer: url please
[12:47] Dnate Mars: so it will say, resemble alpine (mountain) styles of alpine Europe?
[12:47] Sudane Erato: in the draft box
[12:47] Sudane Erato: yes
[12:48] You: yes
[12:48] You: sorry
[12:48] Dnate Mars: seems repeatitive
[12:48] You: i am not going to vote more language
[12:48] Arria Perreault: Europe was enough ...
[12:48] Sudane Erato: repeat for emphasis
[12:48] You: ok, guys
[12:48] Sudane Erato: i agree with Moon..
[12:48] You: 2 minutes for you to read
[12:48] You: then we will vote
[12:49] Dnate Mars: I vote aye to the final draft
[12:49] Sudane Erato: kk... I will vote AYE right now
[12:49] Sudane Erato: and I need a moment off
[12:49] You: ok, your votes are registered, thanks
[12:49] Sudane Erato:
[12:49] Arria Perreault: Aye to the final draft
[12:49] You: ty Arria
[12:49] Delia Lake: aye from me also
[12:50] You: Ty Delia
[12:50] You: i vote Aye too
[12:50] You: sleazy ehehe
[12:50] Sleazy Writer: Aye. A.Y.E.
[12:51] You: YAY
[12:51] You: thanks everyone!
[12:51] Dnate Mars: Now, off to the RA!
[12:51] You: meet you at the RA