Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi all
Justice Soothsayer: hi gwyn
Claude Desmoulins: Good day.
Claude Desmoulins: How many do we need for a quorum?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm so sorry! My usual SL client was always failing to connect, I had to use another copy 
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just one person, Claude 
Sleazy Writer: hi Gwyn & MT
MT Lundquist: hi all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Sleazy, Claude, Justice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello MT!
MT Lundquist: is there anywhere i should sit
Justice Soothsayer: hi MT
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any place is fine, MT
Claude Desmoulins: This is my morning to watvh the kids so I'll be in and out.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, thank you very very much for coming.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should probably copy & paste the agenda?...
Sleazy Writer: wait a sec, let me give you guys a good start
Sleazy Writer gave you Divivity Apple Pie Slice with Vanilla Ice Cream.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Sleazy
Sleazy Writer gave you Party Hat (drag onto yourself) white.
MT Lundquist: ty sleazy
Claude Desmoulins chuckles
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: gah I wish I had had 20 minutes to prepare this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll have to quote things by heart, my computer is too slow for copying & pasting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: To the citizens in the audience, welcome
Sleazy Writer: Madam dean, I'd like to propose something for the agenda: the appointment of a Content Archivist, for which Aliasi Stonebender has applied. It should not take a long time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unlike the RA, the SC has slightly different meeting procedures
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, good idea, Sleazy
Claude Desmoulins: You did mention that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you agree to include that on the agenda, Claude & Justice? (I vote "aye")
Justice Soothsayer: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good, ok, that will be point 5 then
Gwyneth Llewelyn: First, just to make sure evrybody knows a bit about the rules.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the RA, basically any citizenm can speak out of order, introduce bills, etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The SC is a bit more despotist
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Citizens can attend most of the meetings,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but there are some points where their input is required,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: others where they are to remain silent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And believe me, I'm fond of using the Eject button 
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was trying to get a copy of the SC Meeting procedures on a notecard,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but sadly I just found version 1.2 of the draft
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's hidden & buried in the forums somewhere.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, point one —
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *getting a new Dean* 
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Technically, as you might probably know,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should already have been *impeached*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for failing to uphold the constitution
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and get a new SC election,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: which is delayed for, hmm, about 9 months
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mostly my fault for being unable to get the SC to meet at all...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: SO hmm, Justice & Claude... any candidates?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
Justice Soothsayer: silence is deafening.
Claude Desmoulins: I'll do it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: THANK YOU ))
Sleazy Writer applauds
Claude Desmoulins: albeit a tad reluctantly
Justice Soothsayer: /claps
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Claude Desmoulins: At least the meetings will be easier to manage
Claude Desmoulins: Do we need to vote?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, Claude, in fact you're going to be on a "short term"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but we're at a term's finish
Gwyneth Llewelyn: technically the Dean gets elected mid-term
Claude Desmoulins: That's fine.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so you can legally call for elections again in March
Claude Desmoulins: Maybe by then there will be someone less reluctant.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I vote for Claude as next Dean.
Justice Soothsayer: I'm voting in favor of Claude as well.
Claude Desmoulins: l'll vote for myself, if it's not untoward .
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's perfectly reasonable
Gwyneth Llewelyn: congratulations, Dean
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay I'm very happy ))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We should have a special cerimony just for that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But electing a Dean is the rarest thing in the history of the CDS...
Claude Desmoulins: I'm willing to forego it sowe can get some business attended to.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Great
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we move to the next point?
Claude Desmoulins: Please
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... actually, technically, it's your call now, Mr Dean
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Point two was a suggestion ...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As you remember, Dianne was very reluctant in having the transcripts of the SC publicly posted.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was mostly to protect the SC members, allowing them to freely (and not formally) emit their opinions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: when we're discussing sensitive issues.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Namely, regarding discussions about specific people.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since then we have indeed changed teh procedures slightly,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so that the citizens can participate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I propse that we do publish the transcripts again,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (in most of the meetings anyway)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in all open and public SC meetings.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This will still ensure privacy on the closed meetings — eg. trial cases, impeachment acses, etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any thoughts? (this point is really just for Claude, myself, and Justice to talk about)
Justice Soothsayer: I'm in favor of having transcripts generally posted, it adds to the transparency of government.
Claude Desmoulins: From the outside, the need I felt ass a citizen to know what was going on was met by publishing decisions w/ explanations, but I have no objection to publishing transcripts,
Gwyneth Llewelyn definitely agrees with Justice, specially because the issues about "personalities" are less important these days than they were in the past.
Claude Desmoulins: Though this makes finding an archivist important.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right!
Claude Desmoulins: Or appointing a secretary from within the SC to handle the transcripting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Claude Desmoulins: Can we also make it effective as of the next meeting since I don't know where my transcript thing is?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Should we open the position for SC archivist formally again?
Claude Desmoulins: Yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe that's ok, although copy & paste works for me.
Claude Desmoulins goes to check on kids, brb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right.
Sleazy Writer *coughs* (as if he wanted to say something)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is it regarding to this item of the agenda, Sleazy, or the next one? (we need to formally vote on a) publishing transcripts again and b) opening the position for an SC archivist
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I vote "aye" on a) and b) )
Justice Soothsayer: sincer we're on a brief childcare respite, Sleazy, go ahead.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sure, Sleazy, go ahead
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah Claude is back
Sleazy Writer: as an activist in one of the factions, I recently looked up a SC decision. The conclusion you reached puzzled me, and there was no transcript.
Claude Desmoulins: I vote aye on a and b as well
Sleazy Writer: (that's all)
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Claude Desmoulins: Justice, have you voted on the transcript issue?
Justice Soothsayer: I would just note that transcripts don't always aid in the understanding of decisions.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sleazy, yes, due to lack of time, sometimes the meeting minutes have to be extra-short and you lose a lot of the discussion...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Justice,
Justice Soothsayer: But I'm voting yes on transcripts, and on opening SC archivist.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: perhaps I can suggest the following: not to get rid of the minutes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but have them AND the transcript.
Justice Soothsayer: For instance, sometimes I might argue the "devils advocate" position.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So people can see clearly what the decision was (from the "resumed" minutes)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but refer to the transcript to understand how we got to it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This, of course, means that the position of SC Archivist becomes even more critical...
Claude Desmoulins: That seems reasonable.
Claude Desmoulins: Can we move to election oversight?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so this would mean that on the procedures, "E. THE JOURNAL", point 2. is kept: "2. The journal will record the revised agenda as per C.3 and for every agenda item the introduction of the item as per D.2, the outcome of any vote and the justification by individual members for their vote as per D.3."
Claude Desmoulins listens
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but there would be a new point 5, saying something like: "on public and open discussions, a log of the transcript will additionally be posted"
Claude Desmoulins: so move
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry, Claude, I'm also kjust looking at an old notecard, I hope it's not too far from the approved procedures...)
Justice Soothsayer accepted your inventory offer.
MT Lundquist accepted your inventory offer.
Sleazy Writer accepted your inventory offer.
Claude Desmoulins accepted your inventory offer.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I think we can move on...?
Justice Soothsayer reads notecard
Claude Desmoulins: OK elections. Let's let SC members go first, then open to public
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I have two complex cases noted — Bromo's and Jo's
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There might be a few more.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a formal complaint against the PIO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also,
Sleazy Writer face expresses " !?#@? "
Justice Soothsayer: I'm apparently not up to speed; what's the situation w/ Bromo & Jo?
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, please fill us in.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might have missed some things on the forums too, but I think that another issue was how a certain point of the 'new' election rules have been interpreted.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's start with bromo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bromo left the CDS as a citizen
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "left as a citizen" mostly means in this context: he told the EO that he wasn't going to be around any more and was selling his land.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But — here is the issue — he continued to be part of a land-owning group in the CDS
Gwyneth Llewelyn: When the citizen's list on December 17 was created,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bromo's name was not there
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (since he had said he wasn't interested in being part of the CDS)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Later,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but he still was a member on a group-owning land.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not only Bromo clearly stated his intentions to return,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but he's also part of a faction running for office
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and willing to serve.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Here's the problem:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Nothing prevents a "new" citizen to get elected to the RA.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) A "new" citizen can even NOT be part of the lists, and get 'assigned' a seat under our election procedures
Claude Desmoulins: That would require legislative/costitutional change from the RA
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) Bromo WAS a citizen for a long time, then on the date of the "Roll call", did not own land, said he wasn't a citizen any more, but remained as pºart of a group
Claude Desmoulins: As for Bromo's situation...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we limit who can vote on the RA,
Claude Desmoulins: If the group owned enough land and his membership in the group...
Justice Soothsayer: hmm. "did not own land"? If Bromo is part of a landowning group, does that not constitute "owning land"?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not who can be a member of the RA
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Justice. This is tricky. Members in land-owning groups have to pay that special fee
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it wasn't due on Dec 17
Claude Desmoulins: ....was continuous, actions speak louder than word and what he told the eo didn't mattter
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and actually,
Claude Desmoulins: Current law allows someone not eligible to vote to stand as a candidate.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: when Bromo asked me: "can I run for the elections?" I said "of course"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Claude: yes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, I think it's clear that he CAN run for elections.
Claude Desmoulins: If the RA wants to put forward a CA tightening candidate rules, that's their perogative.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let em also forward you Sudane's email...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I open to the discussion if he can vote or not.
Claude Desmoulins: If the group membership was continuous and the group owned enough land per the 128m2 rule, I'd say he can vote.
MT Lundquist: bromo thought he was a citizen
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sudane sort of claims that bromo understood that he could not vote.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: MT: it's clear he is a citizen now.
MT Lundquist: and remained one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And he was a citizen at December 29th
Justice Soothsayer: Article VI says" 1. A citizen of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators is a resident of SecondLife? who has been granted title to any land by the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and who holds title under the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, for as long as he or she holds such title.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sudane tends to reinforce MT's comment: Bromo considered himself a citizen through the whole process
MT Lundquist: he donated this land into a group that he was part of
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Justice.
Sleazy Writer: How does the Treasurer know who land-group citizens are? When the group representative submits a list of paying members.
Justice Soothsayer: Group ownership "counts" per that clause.
Justice Soothsayer: That's why the roll of citizens is posted, too.
Claude Desmoulins: The questions of fact are ...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sleazy: according to Sudane, Bromo was not listed on December 17th as being part of any group
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no 'evidence' either supporting or denying that claim.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sudane commented that "no one disputed the list" published on Dec 17th
MT Lundquist: he was a memebr of a group
MT Lundquist: on 17th december
Claude Desmoulins: brb
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, well, we don't have "proof" of that... we just have the word of Bromo himself, some of the group members, etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: all confirm that Bromo was member of a group.
MT Lundquist: the groupn is theprincessparisicn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then we have the published list
MT Lundquist: and i'm part of that group
Gwyneth Llewelyn: which was not contested
Justice Soothsayer: Seems to me that's why the rules require a list be published.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
Justice Soothsayer: Isn't it being contested now?
Justice Soothsayer: And prior to the polls being opened?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, well, although it's not explicit if it can (or not) be contested...
MT Lundquist: and the list is being challenged now
MT Lundquist: Bromo just discovered he couldnt vote
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* since the list was fed into the voting booth
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it does not contain Bromo's name
Sleazy Writer: Excuse me, but when did Bromo tell an official he returned?
Sleazy Writer: (or told friends)
MT Lundquist: he never left
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Around Dec29th, Sleazy... let me check
MT Lundquist: he remained a citizen
Justice Soothsayer: I think the argument is that he never left.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: On December 30 he sent a message to me expressing willingness to serve under NuCARE,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so at that date he was a citizen
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (note: there are probably timezones issues here, he might have sent the message on Dec 29 ))
Sleazy Writer: Also, I believe that the Treasurer takes 'payment' as defacto ownership of land, which implies citizenship.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: On Dec 18 he wrote to me:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "I withdrew from the RA and CDS"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: allegedly because of RL issues
MT Lundquist: yes and he did that and doesnt dispute it
MT Lundquist: however he remained a citizen
MT Lundquist: in a land holding group
MT Lundquist: he withdrew for personal reasons
Justice Soothsayer: aye, we'veseen citizens before who say they are leaving and then don't do so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see this is tricky
Justice Soothsayer: Ownership of land is what is dispositive.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "technically", from my perspective, people can say they're not citizens any more, but if the facts contradict that assumption...
Claude Desmoulins: Candidacy is a non issue.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now the problem is: we have no way to *know* if he was a group member on Dec 17 or not,
Justice Soothsayer: I move that Bromo be deemed to be a citizen as of 17 December and therefore permitted to vote in this election.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have to rely on the group members saying so. In that case, why didn't Sudane include him on the roll?
Claude Desmoulins: The question is, was it Bromo's responsibility to dispute the voter list and if so by when.
Justice Soothsayer: Seems to me that Bromo's challenge is timely.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, the booths are not open,
Justice Soothsayer: Its come before us before the polls open.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I'd second Justice on that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed
Claude Desmoulins: Though perhaps the procedure could be clarified.
Claude Desmoulins: Justice , is that a motion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I would say it's the SC's responsibility to evaluate all contestations
Justice Soothsayer: yes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok
Claude Desmoulins: Are we prepared tp vpte pn allwing bromo to vote.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, even if it's "vague", I'll accept Bromo's complaint as being timely and appropriate.
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor of Justice's motion?
Justice Soothsayer: ready to vote. I vote aye.
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I abstain, but for a single reason.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Voting "aye" would mean that Sudane "oversaw" a citizen that should have the right to vote,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that would mean we should also take care of that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not willing to do that, since, as said, one day after the roll was published, Bromo indeed confirmed "he was leaving the RA and the CDS"
Claude Desmoulins: humans are humans, mistakes and all.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes of course
Claude Desmoulins: On to Jo.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Jo is slightly different.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but this time,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: she left all groups.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She *also* left the CDS,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: She now claims that she was NOT informed,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that she could remain a citizen with full voting powers,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if she just joined a group when leaving.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ThePrincess Parisi was very strong in her complaint: she said that "some" people get this information before they 'leave',
Gwyneth Llewelyn: others don't
Sleazy Writer looks at ceiling in amazement.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it was lack of proper information that made Jo "mistakenly" leave a group and thus forfeit citizenship status.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it's a nice ceiling, Sleazy )
Claude Desmoulins: It's all on the wiki. We can all read. However, perhaps we can encourage the eo to produce a departure notecard, maybe even get it notarized., I understand x,y, and z, etc.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Claude: but that is a) a legislative aspect or b) a failure of the SC to properly inform people?
Justice Soothsayer: I think our rule are clear; you are a citizen if yo own land. You aren't a citizen if you don't own land.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (eg. "ignorance of the law is not a mitigating factor" — so in that case we couldn't help Jo much — but if there is neglect in informing people correctly, and because of that, Jo was removed her ability to vote...)
Claude Desmoulins: Whos' responsibility is it to inform the departing citizens of the procedure?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You ask well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I only know that the SC has to "oversee the electoral process",
