ThePrincess Speaks

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Jon Seattle
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Re: ThePrincess Speaks .. I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS

Post by Jon Seattle »

theprincessparisi wrote:

Our voters made what were private choices, supposedly, ... you made very many assumptions about things and stated many untruthes and misrepresentations.. Your statement of a meeting, and then a block of votes coming in all eliminating all but nuCARE ....IS NOT FACT.. HOW LONG IS A SHORT TIME JON? and you are perpetuating this lie.... and you need to admit you do NOT KNOW what happened.

All the votes in question came in within a 45 minute period, very early in the election week, with one straggler coming in early the next day. There were no other single faction votes after that last one.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: ThePrincess Speaks

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

/me shrugs

ThePrincess thinks she was bounced into voting when not prepared, I think I bent over backwards to make sure she had the information she needed in the meeting. The notecard with the amended proposal was available to everyone in the meeting and had been posted on the forums previously.People can read the transcript and judge for themselves. This allegation might be more credible if it weren't being made five months after the event and when NuCARE is under examination for its electoral tactics.

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Cindy Ecksol
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Re: ThePrincess Speaks

Post by Cindy Ecksol »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

/me shrugs

ThePrincess thinks she was bounced into voting when not prepared, I think I bent over backwards to make sure she had the information she needed in the meeting. The notecard with the amended proposal was available to everyone in the meeting and had been posted on the forums previously.People can read the transcript and judge for themselves. This allegation might be more credible if it weren't being made five months after the event and when NuCARE is under examination for its electoral tactics.

Whoa, horsie! What's this about nuCARE being under examination for its electoral tactics? I'm not aware of any such ongoing investigation -- did I miss something? Last I heard the SC ruled during the election that they saw no problem with the voting process. Since then all I've seen are some wild accusations of unethical behavior that are unsupported by facts. Perhaps you are just re-introducing these semantically-loaded statements to encourage everyone's emotions to stay engaged while their brains stay in neutral?

Pat, you will win my approval for your performance as LRA if and when you demonstrate that you can act as a leader with real ideas and a cool enough head to encourage cooperation from all parties. As your first task along those lines, I'd be pleased to see you kill the argument about who did what to whom where and when and get on with the business at hand. Since CSDF doesn't like the current election law, I expect that we'll be seeing a proposal from you this week on how you'd like it changed. I'm looking forward to what you think a "more democratic" system looks like, and will be equally interested to hear what the other factions believe are their top priorities as evidenced by the proposals that THEY table at their first opportunity this week.

Cindy

Jon Seattle
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Re: ThePrincess Speaks

Post by Jon Seattle »

Cindy Ecksol wrote:

Whoa, horsie! What's this about nuCARE being under examination for its electoral tactics? I'm not aware of any such ongoing investigation -- did I miss something? Last I heard the SC ruled during the election that they saw no problem with the voting process.

Not true, the SC ruled that there were significant concerns, but felt (and I think they were right) that the SC was not the right body to deal with it.

Cindy Ecksol wrote:

Since then all I've seen are some wild accusations of unethical behavior that are unsupported by facts.

It would depend, I think, of your definition of "ethical" and "facts". Apparently those are a bit different from those of us who thought each of our votes should count equally in the election outcome. That pesky "equal suffrage" thing in our bill of rights.

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Re: ThePrincess Speaks

Post by Beathan »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

ThePrincess thinks she was bounced into voting when not prepared, I think I bent over backwards to make sure she had the information she needed in the meeting. The notecard with the amended proposal was available to everyone in the meeting and had been posted on the forums previously.People can read the transcript and judge for themselves. This allegation might be more credible if it weren't being made five months after the event and when NuCARE is under examination for its electoral tactics.

Well, as I recall things, that particular vote was a bit nuts. We had just come off a previous debate where Michel was showboating and pounding on his chest like a little man in search of a balcony. Dnate came in, like a good Chancellor, to try to calm the waters and make a compromise proposal that bridged the gaps. I was not sure that any electoral reform was needed -- but the public seemed to be clamoring for it, so I supported the Dnate proposal on a provisional basis as the safest and least disruptive proposal. There was a lot of procedural strangeness in the hearing -- votes taken out of order; confusion as to whether the vote was procedural or substantive; the whole mad affair screaming for someone to beat us all with a hardbound copy of Robert's Rules of Order. I also recall that ThePrincess, who had not been present the week before, when the lion's share of the debate happened, wanted to read the transcript before voting -- but the transcript was not available until after the session had already convened.

So, while Pat is correct that the actual text of the proposal was not a surprise -- I think ThePrincess is fair to say that she was being asked to vote before she was able to do all the background work that a legislator should do before voting. Specifically, the debate about an issue is critical in making a decision to support it or not. Often, the debate reveals issues or agendas that change (or should change) how a legislator looks at an issue.

I fought to give ThePrincess an opportunity to consider the previous week's debate before voting. I still believe that she should have been given that opportunity. Thus, I will be proposing a rule change on how RA votes are taken to address this problem in the future.

Beathan

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
Cindy Ecksol
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Re: ThePrincess Speaks

Post by Cindy Ecksol »

Jon Seattle wrote:
Cindy Ecksol wrote:

Whoa, horsie! What's this about nuCARE being under examination for its electoral tactics? I'm not aware of any such ongoing investigation -- did I miss something? Last I heard the SC ruled during the election that they saw no problem with the voting process.

Not true, the SC ruled that there were significant concerns, but felt (and I think they were right) that the SC was not the right body to deal with it.

Jon, you have a habit of stating authoritatively things that are simply not true. For those who want to see how the SC ACTUALLY responded to Jon's concerns it's at http://forums.slcds.info//viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1564 . There was no problem with the voting process: it was working as specified, and since the RA had discussed the implications of the new system extensively, the SC saw no reason to overrule their decision to implement those particular rules.

Jon Seattle wrote:
Cindy Ecksol wrote:

Since then all I've seen are some wild accusations of unethical behavior that are unsupported by facts.

It would depend, I think, of your definition of "ethical" and "facts". Apparently those are a bit different from those of us who thought each of our votes should count equally in the election outcome. That pesky "equal suffrage" thing in our bill of rights.

Of course this depends on a definition of "ethical" and "facts"! So here's what I understand as the "facts" of this matter. You're saying that you, who voted for the system and discussed it extensively with your colleagues in the RA and elsewhere before the vote, have now decided that it was ok and ethical on paper, but that use of the system as designed is unethical. Personally I find that....ah, yes, "amusing and disingenuous" not to mention completely illogical. Or have you changed your mind about the appropriateness of the legislation you supported and then were responsible for implementing? That would be ok too, but then you probably should consider ceasing your attacks on individuals and factions and explain how you think the system should be changed. I'm hoping you're working with Pat on that so we can all see the CSDF proposal this weekend, and I look forward to hearing the debate on its merits.

Cindy

Beathan
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Re: ThePrincess Speaks

Post by Beathan »

I promised a proposal to change the way the RA handles votes and hearings to prevent the issues concerning the vote for the electoral reform bill, about which Pat and ThePrincess still disagree.

I have done so: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1595

This proposal, as a matter internal to the RA and involving RA procedures, is posted in a forum accessible to RA members only. However, any citizen wishing to comment may do so here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1595

Beathan

Let's keep things simple enough to be fair, substantive enough to be effective, and insightful enough to be good.
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Bromo Ivory
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Re: ThePrincess Speaks

Post by Bromo Ivory »

I was always a bit nervous about how we handled the votes in the RA, this clears it up and I like it.

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