Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

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Sonja Strom
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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Sonja Strom »

Here is a very good map of what the Master Plan says our area of Second Life would look like when completed: http://neufreistadt.info/images/Masterp ... y_copy.jpg

Personally I would very much like to make changes to southern parts of this plan, extending around Neufreistadt.

My suggestion is that we first concentrate on expanding the northern part of the CDS around Colonia Nova. I would support that area being created as it is in the plan, this would work with Beathan's observation, and it would give us more time to discuss possible variations for growth in the southern areas.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

One important point to remember is that the terms 'Colonia Nova' cluster and 'Neufreistadt' cluster do not mean that all the sims in the cluster have to be in the same themes as CN and NFS. I was worried that this misconception might spread when we had the Commission. They're really just shorthand for Northern Cluster and Southern Cluster.

I would expect that the sims immediately adjacent to CN would be prime candidates for a Roman expansion and probably the best places to begin. NFS probably only needs one Bavarian expansion (unless there's pent-up demand for Fachwerk and Bierkeller that I'm unaware of). We could easily accommodate a Greek theme such as the second place Neo Hora from the last sim competition, perhaps in the southern edge of the 'Neufrestadt/Southern' cluster? I would also hope that at least four (maybe eight if we could afford it) of the sims would be void sims to act as buffers between densely populated sims and provide areas of natural beauty for contemplation and recreation.

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Sonja Strom
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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Sonja Strom »

Thanks for this clarification of the naming Patroklus.

At the same time, it seems good for us to not change themes too quickly from one area to another. That is one aspect of the mainland I do not find attractive. When adding new sims, it would be good for us to consider them as something of an extension of the communities we already have. This said, naturally the further from one area they would be, the more they could be different and still work well.

Personally, I really do *not* want to see the walled city of Neufreistadt end up as the highest point on a small ocean island. :|

I would like to put some mountains in the southern area, above Neufreistadt. My vision is to put them on the east side, behind where the NFS Schloss is now. This would help Neufreistadt to feel more Alpine, make it look more dramatic, and allow much better skiing than we have been able to provide in Alpine Meadows. It seems to me the theme of these mountains would be best to maintain as Alpine, but if a Greek area is desired there then perhaps they could be Greek mountains, like Mount Olympus.

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symokurka
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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by symokurka »

Hmm let me pose some questions, and of course please forgive any newbie - nahiveness included.
Is it confirmed that commercial development is a priority for CDS, as I heard during the last RA?
Does anybody believe that the actual urban structures of CN and NFS are compatible with a strong commercial development?? I do not...
Did anybody discuss before about the opportunity of developing a new Sim SPECIALIZED in commercial structures?
Forgive me again if I sound insolent...:) t was not my intention.

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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Beathan »

Sym --

You don't sound insolent, and your question is not out of place. Our focus has been on residential development. For the most part, I think that our focus needs to be on residential development because we need to attract more people to our community. However, commercial space should be an important part of that. As I think about it, a Roman "in theme" expansion could easily include a useful Roman market area -- which would be both very practical and in keeping with the theme. Such a space should definitely be on the table -- but I don't know that we have the luxury of devoting an entire sim to commercial use at this point.

Beathan

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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Jon Seattle »

symokurka wrote:

Is it confirmed that commercial development is a priority for CDS, as I heard during the last RA?

We talk a lot about commercial development, but so far projects have had limited success. My observation has been that CDS tends to attract people more interested in ideas and politics, than successful marketers. That will change as we grow and provide a larger number of local consumers.

symokurka wrote:

Does anybody believe that the actual urban structures of CN and NFS are compatible with a strong commercial development?? I do not...

We are a product of our history. NFS was designed for a competition, and the whole community at that point took of a part of a sim. An intentional goal of the Colonia Nova design was to create much more commercial space in an otherwise residential sim -- and its eye opening to go back a read the original plan. A number of public structures, for example the amphitheater and docks were intended to be leased to commercial operators who would use them for business purposes. Those businesses never materialized.

We will want to eventually have a strong commercial core, perhaps taking up more than one island. Its not a market we (the CDS) understand well as yet and given our history I would be a bit nervous about the CDS jumping in with both feet until we knew more about what we were doing. For example, do businesses desire deeply themed space, or just large chunks of lightly themed space? What sort of commercial development are we talking about?

The other thing we wanted to do, and have had only a little success, is to develop talented designers among the CDS population so when we have more commercial development we will not limited to selling other people's work. The idea of the founders of the community, I think, was to develop a substantial design community here. A few of us have worked hard to get that started, but it has so far remained small.

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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Jon Seattle »

Oh, and I cannot help but mention it (given my SL name :D). I do like Seattle's streetcar neighborhoods -- each one with a small commercial center, schools, and open public space. Not everything need be in a central core.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I've posted an updated proposal as a bill in this thread here in 'Legislative Discussion'. Please continue the discussion there.

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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Jon Seattle wrote:

Oh, and I cannot help but mention it (given my SL name :D). I do like Seattle's streetcar neighborhoods -- each one with a small commercial center, schools, and open public space. Not everything need be in a central core.

I like those types of clusters as well - as we expand (I am thrilled that so many are busy trying to make expansion happen) having multiple nexii (nexuses? Nexi?) is a good "urban planning" goal. And making it look organic is the challenge! :P

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Desmond Shang
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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Desmond Shang »

Symokurka is worried about exactly the right things, I think.

I'm offering a bit of what worked for me - so feel free to take or leave it (we all know what free advisement is worth!)

One thing I'm stunned that nobody picked up on, is that I've never zoned commercial/residential *at all* myself, and did fairly well, though some areas favour one use over others. In fact, the huge key here is a sort of flexibility.

micronation Thought Experiment: Confederation of Democratic Lawyers (the CDL!)

Let's say this CDL divides their land up into:

40% commercial
50% residential
10% infrastructure

within themed areas of:

40% Bavarian
40% Roman
20% MontyPython

And say it's all distributed like this:

=================================================
commercial: 20% Bavarian, 10% Roman, 10% MontyPython (sums to 40% of all land)
=================================================
residential: 20% Bavarian, 10% Roman, 10% MontyPython (sums to 40% of all land)
=================================================
infrastructure: 10% Bavarian, 5% Roman, 5% MontyPython (sums to 20% of all land)
=================================================

Okay, so infrastructure you don't have to worry about much; it's not going anywhere.

But let's say Bavarian commercial land is a hit, and MontyPython residential land is really popular too.
And say Roman residential is a total flop (these are just examples).

Well, depending upon how you designed things, you can be either be:
a) doing great, because you could shrink the flops and expand the successes geographically, or
b) be totally screwed, because some areas are bursting at the seams while others sit empty.

I'd seen this sort of thing in Caledon early on, planned for it, and did pretty much okay. The classic example is the forest area. I get people who love to be forest dwellers, and they come, build a community in the forest, and it gets... more foresty. This attracts the like-minded, and they 'grow the forest' into areas that were sorta foresty, but not blatantly urban around the forest. In time some forest people leave, and the forest-edge folk move in to the heart of the forest if they can. The more shop-minded people expand nearby towns into the town/forest buffer zone... all the while, this helps maintain 100% occupancy because Caledon is designed to ebb and flow with spot-market conditions. I get armchair analysis from people all the time, yet nobody seems to pick up on this. It's Business 101 stuff: if widgets move better than gadgets, put more widgets on the diminishing gadget shelfspace.

From the little table above, you can see how if each neat little subtheme is geographically overplanned, or worst-case 'walled in' you will get spots of unfillable low occupancy whenever conditions change. Which is all the time. Say not many want Roman Residential (or whatever) - if it's walled in and stuck as Roman Residential - you'll be burning tier on it. The approach that seems to work is have say a Roman Residential 'core' area that you might hold steady, but let it fade into the other themes geographically per market demand.

Of course, you may have the luxury of scary-crazy-high demand, but... if ever you don't, it's great not to have painted oneself into a corner. Some regions simply "have to be a certain way" - Michel's Al Andalus is one of these, where if you don't have areas A, B, and C done a certain way simply it doesn't work as a concept. But if you can avoid that, you'll have better occupancy long term, I think.

* * * * *

Incidentally, shops and merchants are key - they are a tie-in to the strength of the overall SL economy. Which makes the CDS and Caledon look like specks of dust by comparison. Sure you could do like Dana did and make a beautiful, nearly 100% residential area, but residential areas tend to value quiet and privacy. A whole lot of "leave me alone please" in an environment like that. And probably a lot less laws to argue over - no fun for you guys! :)

With shops, you'll get most of SL dropping in and buying stuff that the merchants make. Once it stabilises out, neither the region owner nor the merchant is paying the tier - it's the happy shoppers. This is a wickedly powerful sustaining force - essentially, the grid economy is now floating most of your boat. In fact, some resident merchant-barons easily float their private lands off their shop earnings too. Think of all this as 'gross national product' - and believe me, the merchants can do well. So well, that they could easily float an entire sim or three on their own if they felt like it.

I hope this was constructive!

Des

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Re: Adding New Sims - "In theme" expansion

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Desmond -

Thanks for your common sense comments and insight. That's given me a great deal to think about. We will have to make sure that your contribution is borne in mind as we discuss our expansion options.

Now that this bill has passed, there's a thread here in Sim & City Planning to consider how we might add a 4th (and 5th?) sim and indeed, if we should do so at this point.

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