A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

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Jon Seattle
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A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Jon Seattle »

Beathan wrote:

What concerns me is that the CSDF, at least as represented by Jon, appears more interested in increasing and consolidating its own power, rather than trying to create a balanced system that works well, while protecting dissenter's rights and citizen rights, regardless of which party is in power. The SP is not about power grabbing. We are about creating the best possible system -- which we believe to generally be the simplest workable and safe system.

I am getting accused in various threads in the forum of somehow being power greedy, resisting all change etc. Its pretty crazy imagination from people who barely know me. I don't have any formal role in the CDS, but I have at times worked very very hard for the CDS.

Now, the bills that we have passed in the RA are often the result of compromises, and when I was in the RA I did represent my faction's decisions to the best of my ability. Nevertheless I keep my own consul on issues.

The people who think I always speak for the CSDF have not been to our meetings (where I am often supporting some controversial position and getting overruled by someone with a much better idea). But the CDSF is truly a democratic party in every sense. I am very proud of it and its accomplishments.

But I guess, since I expect to have no influence whatsoever, and as one of CDS's current scapegoats (see Beathan's description of me above), and scheduled to be burnt at the stake, I might as well tell people what I really think we should do. The following is based on what I have learned from the Cedar Island project.

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A new model for the CDS government, a sketch. (Basically a town meeting organization..)

1. The RA's function would change

The RA would become more of an executive committee, and replace the current executive. The LRA would fill the current role of Chancellor, and individual RA members would have particular portfolios, or areas of responsibility, for example minister of sim maintenance, culture, foreign affairs, etc.

The RA would be able to pass regulations, but these would remain in force only for six months without the community meeting's approval.

2. Community Meeting

The Community Meeting would meet every two months. Any citizen who had been here for some period of time (I recommend several months to protect us from take-over etc.) would be a full member.

The Community Meeting would be the only body allowed to pass laws or make changes in the constitution. Changing the constitution would require 4/5ths of the members.

One of the key responsibilities of the CM would be to work with the New Guild to create plans for the long-term development of the CDS. I am increasingly getting the idea that doing so on a sim-by-sim basis is a really bad idea.

The Community Meeting would be able to approve or strike down regulations passed by the RA.

3. Committees

The Community Meeting would appoint committees to work on particular issues. Somewhat similar to the Commissions today. However, the Community Meeting would make the final decision would be in no way obligated to implement the committee's recommendations.

4. The SC

Actually this is one area where I would make few changes, except to require members to be re-confirmed in their appointments annually.

5. Scale

The structure I have outlined does not scale infinitely, but should work fine for fewer than 200 citizens. I recommend we have an expansion clause that causes us to divide into two regional groups when we exceed 200.

Beathan
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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Beathan »

Jon --

To set things straight, I am not accusing you of being power greedy. Rather, I am noting that you (and the CSDF in general -- but you are the front man on this) want us to remember and respect the mandate the CSDF received in the last election. This is right and proper. However, you and Pat are, in my opinion, overstating that mandate by going off script (beyond the CSDF agenda) to imply that procedural matters and the details of the portfolios of various offices are part of that mandate. The CSDF did not run on procedural or official conservatism -- so procedural or official conservatism cannot be part of the mandate. This is not a power grab -- rather, it is an overstating of the mandate.

When I have talked about "power grabbing" -- it has been defensive. I have been accused of having some nasty and ambitious ulterior motive when I propose improvements to our procedures. I have said that I have no such motives. Somehow, my denial that I have such motives has been interpreted (wrongly) as a suggestion that others have such motives. (I have stated that I oppose processes and institutions that preserve factional power through inertia -- but that is not the same as the accusation of power-grabbing.) Frankly, I think that we are all well-meaning, good people hampered by a poor system -- and have said as much. I do have problems with Pat's temperament, which I more that of a Majority Whip than that of a RA Chairperson. (In fact, this is an artifact of our making the leader of the most popular party the LRA -- the characteristics that make for a successful party leader are, frankly, incompatible with those that make for an effective LRA.)

Turning to your specific proposal -- what are you trying to accomplish? I think that your proposal would be a great experiment on online democracy -- but it should be tried separately. (In fact, I think that it is being tried separately in other groups you are involved with.) The CDS is another experiment -- and we should not abandon it lightly. I think that the democratic process in the CDS works, although there is a constant call to tinker with it. As much as I would like to test your ideas -- and would welcome a chance to participate in another experiment based on those ideas -- I think that such radical changes to the very nature of the CDS is unwarranted and unwise.

Beathan

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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Jon Seattle »

Beathan wrote:

Turning to your specific proposal -- what are you trying to accomplish? I think that your proposal would be a great experiment on online democracy -- but it should be tried separately. (In fact, I think that it is being tried separately in other groups you are involved with.) The CDS is another experiment -- and we should not abandon it lightly. I think that the democratic process in the CDS works, although there is a constant call to tinker with it. As much as I would like to test your ideas -- and would welcome a chance to participate in another experiment based on those ideas -- I think that such radical changes to the very nature of the CDS is unwarranted and unwise.

1. It is an attempt to open up the system and decentralize power, in contrast to the super-chancellor proposals (that you endorse) that attempts to centralize power in a single person.

2. I am posting this so that people can tell where I come from, in answer to your claims that I am somehow against democracy, openness, etc. I have no need to implement it here, though I agree with someone we both know, that this kind of thing would help seriously help solve some of our problems.

3. I would rather have citizens in a room deliberating than some sort of anonymous US-style referenda process.

I do think Dnate's proposal does abandon the CSD experiment for a US-style strong arm president. Now, here is the thing:

Actually, I do not altogether, nor Pat I think, object to the direction of your proposed procedure change. What we do object to, and really should object to, is your tactics which have been really very nasty. And it is clear to me and to many others who have read the RA transcripts, that your real goal has nothing to do with the specifics of your proposal. I really wish it were, we could discuss this calmly, but its clear that you have much bigger aims in mind.

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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Beathan »

Jon --

You state:

Actually, I do not altogether, nor Pat I think, object to the direction of your proposed procedure change. What we do object to, and really should object to, is your tactics which have been really very nasty.

I don't think that my tactics have been nasty. I made a proposal to improve the RA process. It met with opposition. I have highlighted the points when our meetings would benefit from an improved process. I have argued vehemently for my proposal on the forums. I have taken comments -- and gone out of my way to solicit comments -- and have incorporated those comments into my proposal (even when I disagree with them), so that the RA could consider the matter as fully as possible. This is the opposite of my single-mindedly trying to force a matter through -- it is a clear example of an attempt to seek compromise and consensus where possible and to give the points of true disagreement a full and fair airing. What is nasty about that?

And it is clear to me and to many others who have read the RA transcripts, that your real goal has nothing to do with the specifics of your proposal. I really wish it were, we could discuss this calmly, but its clear that you have much bigger aims in mind.

I know you think this, and I am mystified as to why you would. My goal is to improve the functioning of the RA -- which has outgrown its procedures. My additional goal is to replace the procedures with something scalable so we do not need to radically revise the procedures ever again. I don't see how I receive any personal or factional advantage from the improvement in the procedures I propose. I don't have "bigger aims in mind".

ROSALIND

I do beseech your grace,
Let me the knowledge of my fault bear with me:
If with myself I hold intelligence
Or have acquaintance with mine own desires,
If that I do not dream or be not frantic,--
As I do trust I am not--then, dear uncle,
Never so much as in a thought unborn
Did I offend your highness.

DUKE FREDERICK

Thus do all traitors:
If their purgation did consist in words,
They are as innocent as grace itself:
Let it suffice thee that I trust thee not.

ROSALIND

Yet your mistrust cannot make me a traitor:
Tell me whereon the likelihood depends.

With regard to a calm meeting to throw oil on the waters, I am all for it. Most people know that I am far more calm inworld and inperson than I am in my speeches on the forums. The rules of courtesy in conversation are and should be very different than those of debate. You and I need to talk the nuts and bolts of electoral reform in any case. We are allies on that issue -- and this sideline spat over procedures in the RA (of all things) is undermining the unity we need to have to put together electoral reforms to prevent electoral tricks and accusations of impropriety in future elections.

Beathan

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Bromo Ivory
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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Bromo Ivory »

Jon Seattle wrote:

But I guess, since I expect to have no influence whatsoever, and as one of CDS's current scapegoats (see Beathan's description of me above), and scheduled to be burnt at the stake,

Jon - while I like your input, I don't think you are a "Martyr."

I might as well tell people what I really think we should do.

So ... you weren't stating your opinion before? Whose opinion was it?

==
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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Jon Seattle »

Bromo Ivory wrote:
Jon Seattle wrote:

But I guess, since I expect to have no influence whatsoever, and as one of CDS's current scapegoats (see Beathan's description of me above), and scheduled to be burnt at the stake,

Jon - while I like your input, I don't think you are a "Martyr."

I disagree. See the transcript of last Sunday's meeting of the election committee for details.

Bromo Ivory wrote:

I might as well tell people what I really think we should do.

I've been expressing my interest in intelligent forms of direct democracy (not mob-rule however) in various forms for quite a while:

http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=130
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... eting#p371
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... rter#p2496
http://cedar-island.org/cedar-island-ex ... ty-charter

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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Beathan »

Jon --

As I recall, you had as many defenders as detractors at the election committee meeting. I was one of them.

Beathan

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Desmond Shang
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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Desmond Shang »

Hay guys,

If I signed up an got some land, you know maybe 256m or something, could I be a CDS citizen and make a political party too?

And how elastic is your government and constitution anyway?

Jes' wondering, you know, Purely Hypothetically and all...

Imperially Yours,

Desmond Shang, F.I.C.
Guvnah, Independent State of Caledon

*sniff* theywouldntevenletmeshowtheirflagonnawebsite *sniff* itsalwaysthelittlethings

Jon Seattle
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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Jon Seattle »

Beathan wrote:

As I recall, you had as many defenders as detractors at the election committee meeting. I was one of them.

Yes, very much so. I appreciate it.

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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Jon Seattle »

Desmond Shang wrote:

If I signed up an got some land, you know maybe 256m or something, could I be a CDS citizen and make a political party too?

Of course! You will need a faction platform and at least two other citizens. You and others willing to stand in the election communicate this to the Dean of the SC more than 15 days before the next election. More details here:

http://www.aliasi.us/nburgwiki/tiki-ind ... V_Factions

Are you thinking of something along the lines of the Dutch Kabouterbeweging?

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Desmond Shang
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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Desmond Shang »

Kabouterbeweging. I googled that, and read all the lovely singsong words I couldn't understand... but no reference I could find in a language I can read.

So I guess that's not what I'm planning!

Honestly, it was just a question. Not enough hours in my day. And presume I managed, oh, whatever it is I would manage... well... so what, then what?

I'm painfully bereft of a good agenda, other than making people smile...

grin

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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Leon »

Desmond Shang wrote:

I'm painfully bereft of a good agenda, other than making people smile...

Desmond,

Thanks for the smile. If you need a citizen for your party consider me potentially willing :)

Leon

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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Jon Seattle »

Desmond Shang wrote:

Kabouterbeweging. I googled that, and read all the lovely singsong words I couldn't understand... but no reference I could find in a language I can read.

They were a funny Dutch protest party in the 60s. I recall they made proposals like dressing up police in clown uniforms and would have that the government handing out free food. Definitely anticipating Second Life.

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Re: A new model for the CDS government, a sketch.

Post by Beathan »

Ah -- a Dutch version of the Monster Raving Loony Party?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_M ... oony_Party

Also -- didn't the CDS once have a faction called the "Costume Party"?

Beathan

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Re: A new model for CDS gov't?

Post by Jamie Palisades »

Personally, I thought Jon's proposals were interesting. They pose a reasonable set of questions about how we govern.

Is major change to CDS a non-starter? We can't even consider substantial mods to the governmental structure? Even if it's not working? Do the last few months leave you with the impression that it is working?

By working, I do not mean "at least someone's leading and things are happening." Even nondemocratic governments have accomplishments, like Mussolini making the trains run on time and, um, Des running Caledon. For a democratic government system to "work", it *also* must be an effective crucible for collective decisionmaking, among disparate stakeholders, without starting too many fights or getting too mired in personalities to produce. (Otherwise, why tolerate all the overhead of democracy? We should just elect our own Guvnah and save all the Saturday meetings.)

More on this, over in Pat and Bromo's thread on democracy:
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1655

Cheers Jamie

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== as chancellor of the oldest self-governing sims in SL.
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