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I am not opposed to trying Jon's ideas -- but I don't want to abandon the system we are still experimenting with and working out.
Could we have both? I would like to float the old idea of local government within the CDS -- with sim-specific governments based on Jon's model. Would that play?
Beathan
Beathan wrote:I am not opposed to trying Jon's ideas -- but I don't want to abandon the system we are still experimenting with and working out.
Could we have both? I would like to float the old idea of local government within the CDS -- with sim-specific governments based on Jon's model. Would that play?
Beathan
Seems like an idea worth exploring. I could see "citizen gatherings" on the model Jon described in each sim with the RA being re-structured to include a rep from each sim in addition to faction-based "at large" seats. Would take some doing to decide what decisions are reserved to the sims and what must be approved by the RA...
Cindy
Jamie Palisades wrote:Personally, I thought Jon's proposals were interesting. They pose a reasonable set of questions about how we govern.
Is major change to CDS a non-starter? We can't even consider substantial mods to the governmental structure? Even if it's not working? Do the last few months leave you with the impression that it is working?
By working, I do not mean "at least someone's leading and things are happening." Even nondemocratic governments have accomplishments, like Mussolini making the trains run on time and, um, Des running Caledon. For a democratic government system to "work", it *also* must be an effective crucible for collective decisionmaking, among disparate stakeholders, without starting too many fights or getting too mired in personalities to produce. (Otherwise, why tolerate all the overhead of democracy? We should just elect our own Guvnah and save all the Saturday meetings.)
More on this, over in Pat and Bromo's thread on democracy:
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1655Cheers Jamie
What a delightful post... a shame I'm going to discuss it seriously! But it's a fascinating topic.
"What does a working democracy mean on the grid?"
Honestly it's a very fundamental question. I remember telling a young friend that there was a 'democratic sim' once, and his response was (paraphrased): "Democratic - about what?"
This was a more insightful question than I had ever imagined. Rather than arguing about what *should* be democratically governed, let's consider what can be:
1) use of private and common land
2) acceptance of citizens (citizen defined as: someone with a say in the democracy on whatever basis)
3) use of common wealth ($L surplus, land surplus, deciding where to allocate available human resources &c)
4) determining the goals of the community
5) dealing with foreign groups as a community
...plus the reverse (such as: what to do in terms of common crisis instead of surplus).
Did I miss anything significant? Feel free to add.
* * * * *
Now, ask yourselves: which matter to your democracy experiment?
Seriously. Let's break this down.
a) Survival and a bit of growth - hey, you need some people to make a democracy.
This is a 'sufficiency' goal only, insofar as it's not the 'point' of making a working democracy. If size and strength was the point - you guys lost long ago. And not to tiny Caledon, but to Anshe's gargantuan corporativist model. Or the mainland's 1/4 billion square meters of abandoned-corporativist-that-became-anarcho-capitalist model. "Amazing comeback" would not be the word... "divine miracle" would be the description of CDS-born democracy sweeping the grid at large.
So really, you only need enough people to be taken seriously. I'd say two dozen people would fit that bill for a basic democracy example, or perhaps a few hundred for something that could be considered as a model to emulate elsewhere.
b) Making a better system, by some measure, than a system that lacks democracy.
It's one thing to sorta feel 'yeah yeah, democracy good, rah rah...' - but *why?* What does democracy on the grid do for its citizens?
Let's look at that. Representative democracy has some key virtues:
- Ideally, management of succession - no matter how benevolent the dictator, who's next? On the grid, who takes over the region?
- Democracy is often tied to *rights* - does the system fundamentally tend to protect rights of its citizens? Grid Justice.
- Extension of the opportunities of its citizens, in both personal and commercial ways. Influence of general CDS goals &c.
- The ability for the democracy as a whole to reflect the will of its citzens, when dealing with foreign groups. Grid, RL - same thing.
Did I miss any? (I must confess, this cabernet sauvignon is pretty good and I'm halfway down)
So where is the tie-in. Let's talk specifics.
- Succession. Who is the next LRA? Who is the next Chancellor? Who is the next "Sudane"? This may be less relevant in a democracy experiment that may have a realistic lifetime of twenty years, but it is still relevant. You can win this point via the democracy solution, if you sort it out.
- Rights. What is considered more fundamental than the democracy itself - what will it defend to the core? Spell it out, get it in the constitution. Make a functional legislature and judiciary (no shortage of executives!) and use them properly. You could win this point with democracy.
- Extension of opportunity. Themed land? Bloody hell, that's the point of a theme - use your democracy to find a theme you can largely get behind, make all sorts of wonderful things within that theme and export them to the rest of the grid. Make people proud to have a bit of CDS swag, fly the CDS flag, and whatnot.
- Becoming a good citizen of the world (grid). Okay, so your house is in order, you are prosperous and starting to convince people about democracy. Well, what kind of influence on the grid is your democratic experiment? Does it gobble up other regions in a quest for grandeur? Is it just smugly superior? Or does it raise money for charities, help the weak, make the grid as a whole a better place? Let's see democracy show the will of the people in the outward face of the CDS.
Otherwise, as Jamie puts it so well - why tolerate the overhead of Democracy?
That's why.
Alright, cat knocked over the glass, I've got red wine stains all over my desk and tax returns and I'd best clean it up. Night CDS 