Thinkers Meeting - July 12, 4-5 PM SLT

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Salzie Sachertorte
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Thinkers Meeting - July 12, 4-5 PM SLT

Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

Date: Wednesday, July 12, 2006
Time: 4:00PM - 5:00PM (60 minutes)
Location: Neufreistadt (187,82)
Host: Gwyneth Llewelyn

As far as 2 years ago, people discussed - very aggressively! - the concept of self-governance in SL. The world was a small place; and a few thought there would be enough common ground for self-organising the SL grid as a whole.

Since then, it's clear that there is not "a" community in SL - but several! People have all sorts of interests and expectations about this world - we get together in groups that share our interests; we build things together. Our communities grow - and so do everybody else's.

Many models of organisation have arisen naturally in SL. Most are autocratic - one leads the group, the rest follows. Most are commercial - landowners, rentals, companies. Many others are linked to a specific goal - setting up a large event, for example - and they tend to congregate many talented individuals with skills in organisation/planning.

"Self-governance" is a vague term to describe a vast array of possibilities. What alternatives exist? Which ones have you tried out in your journey through SL?

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Gwyneth Llewelyn
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Transcript 1/4

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[16:01] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: now, hmm[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:01] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: where would be the best place to rez a soapbox?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:01] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: LAW! HUH! WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR, ABSO-LUTE-LY NUTHIN, YEAHHH![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Why would they change "Find" to "Search"? Who got paid to come up with that pointless change??[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: lol Pall ;)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: eek[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: we need a new design for the soapbox :P[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hehe Pallmor[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: don't ask[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: ooh hello Robin, welcome![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Somebody got good money that week, goofed off, and came up with that one five minutes before the meeting[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:02] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: sometimes things are just the way they are[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:03] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hi Gwyn - thanks for inviting me[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:03] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: At least we're not criticizing the Lindens behind their backs.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:03] [color=Navy:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Well, a lot of people don't get "find" at first, so it's not an ENTIRELY illogical change.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:03] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: think of it as hopeful[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:03] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][i:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn will look silly telling the newbies "just press Find in the bottom of the screen" "where?" "right there... oops... not there anymore!"[/i:2rxjjhqi][/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:03] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hopefully soon we'll *really* have search[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:03] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Agreed, Al[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:04] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: So it's a setup for something bigger, eh?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:04] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Ah alamari ? apologies, I didn't welcome you :P[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:04] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Sorry about that.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:04] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: *Calamari[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:04] [color=Indigo:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Calamari Ricardo[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Call me Fishmeal, er, Cal[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:04] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (and I can't even type your name properly!)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:04] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: So..I guess no one sits with me because I am intimidatingly beautiful? ;)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Ok, for the benefit of the people who are here for their first time,[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I'll be shortly reviewing our very simple rules[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: A friend![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (yes, we have rules... we are organised.... awww)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: lol[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: ... and then it's up to you.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: 1) Generally we all speak over each other, unless someone is on the soapbox.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Navy:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (hey, look at Pallmor then again, I guess I can understand not wanting to sit right next to me. *grin*)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:05] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: 2) If someone is on the soapbox please be quiet and listen to them, you will have a chance to respond to them later.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:06] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: IF they invite comment that is fine, but otherwise please be quiet.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Teh soapbox is sancrosanct[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:06] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: 3) If you want to use the soapbox please touch it, you'll enter the queue[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:06] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: 4) No ad hominem attacks. Feel free to tear apart ideas, but not the person sharing them. Err on the side of caution with tearing apart their ideas too, we should be able to cope, but not everyone can![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:06] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Has anyone ever had silence while on the soapbox?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:06] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: 5) If you want to join the group for more spam (heh) please ask a prefect, there are nearly always 2 or 3, sometimes more at a meeting.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: lol. It's a lofty goal[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: 6) We have a group list on the SL forums website (http://forums.secondlife.com/forumdisplay.php?f=77).[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (well it's mostly empty!)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: 7) If you want to run a meeting of your own, please chat to a prefect. Essentially you can either replace a regular meeting with the regular hosts agreement, or find a time of your own[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Gwyn is the only poster.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: No, I think Traxx made a comment this month![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hello Angela. Hello bee.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=DarkSlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Angela Salome[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hello everyone.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hi Angela & bee :)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Welcome, and feel free to take a seat![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:07] [color=DarkRed:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]bee Seattle[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hello[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:08] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Apologies for the ones that I forgot to tp in ;)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:08] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Unlike Calamari here, I just have two arms to type (hehe)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:08] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Ok,[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:09] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I did some posting on the forums on the topic for today,[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:09] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Neal & Aliasi replied first to that, and then a few others joined in,[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:09] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: so I guess I should explain a bit what the topic was supposed to be about.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:09] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Not about "a" government in SL,[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: since there is not "a" community in Sl either ? there are *several* communities[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=DarkOrange:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Moon Adamant[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hello all :)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: "government" means in SL mostly "people getting together, throw in a few rules, plan & organise things together"[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (hiya Moonie ? welcome!)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hello Moon.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Olive:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Jon Seattle[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hello! :)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hi Jon. Nice hat:)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: In some cases, it's more "management" of both human resources, and other resources (land, money, and ... time!)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:10] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (hi Jon!)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Olive:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Jon Seattle[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Thanks Extropia[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Green:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hey jon, moon[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: "self-government" thus has several forms:[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: - it can be just a group[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: - it can be a SL company[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Olive:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Jon Seattle[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hi Yoge! :)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: - it can be a landowner and its rentees (or mall owner and all the stalls)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:11] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: - it can be a volunteer organisation for promoting charity fund-raising events (think One.org, Relay for Life, as well as many others)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:12] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: So there is a LOT of diversity, and no single-model-fits-all-sizes[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:12] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I can imagine that *most* of you have participated in some sort of "group" like that,[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:13] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: and have had some experience in "self-managing" the group ? or joined a group that was managed by someone else[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:13] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: And now I'm tired of typing ? LOL[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:13] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: What have been your experiences? What worked well?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:13] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Where were the problems mostly "social" (ie. dealing with people)?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:13] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Where were they simply trying to overcome limitations on SL?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:14] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Can I add a question?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:14] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Please :)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:14] [color=Indigo:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Calamari Ricardo[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Most of the groups I have joined are pretty silent.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:14] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: In that context, what do you expect from Linden Lab, if anything, to help?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:14] [color=Teal:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Simoleia Kavka[/b:2rxjjhqi]: being able to mute a group[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:15] [color=Teal:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Simoleia Kavka[/b:2rxjjhqi]: problems with group spam[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:15] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Question: is there anybody here that is NOT part of a group? :)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:15] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (hi there Traxx ? welcome :) )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:15] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Please can we have more than 15 groups?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:15] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hiya Gwyn -- just had to post in your thread : )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:15] [color=Navy:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:2rxjjhqi]: One thing that gets me is the implicit assumption of a leader(s) in a group, in SL.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:15] [color=DarkRed:2rxjjhqi][i:2rxjjhqi]bee Seattle raises hand[/i:2rxjjhqi][/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:16] [color=Teal:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Simoleia Kavka[/b:2rxjjhqi]: i think most of the people in here are a part of some group or another[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:16] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I agree Simoleia.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:16] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Aliasi?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:16] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: bee ? you just missed the few rules ? you're very welcome to interrupt everybody else :)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:16] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Well we are relational beings. We only truly exist in our interactions with others, so to not belong to a group is tantamount to non-existence.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: If you wish for a few moments without interruptions, touch the soapbox to enter the queue.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=Teal:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Simoleia Kavka[/b:2rxjjhqi]: yeah, otherwise known as lonlyness[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=DimGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]The Soapbox[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Reseting script[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hope I'm in time to stop Gwyn from declaring a government : )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: but groups have different functions, as Gwyn pointed out. some are purely for business[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Too late Profky[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Pro haha.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Barely, Prokofy, barely :) And welcome![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=Navy:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:2rxjjhqi]: yes, Ludo?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Ah, we need some more chairs...[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:17] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: But first, my avatar has to be able to sit down in the new Reichstag[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:18] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Dieta, Prokofy ;)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:18] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: What do you mean ab out peopole assuming groups have leaders.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:18] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hmm, better stand in case the guard gets tired.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:18] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: the mechanics of groups in SL assume that the founder should have special powers[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:18] [color=DarkRed:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]bee Seattle[/b:2rxjjhqi]: sorry. crash[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:18] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I think Claude had a good point in that thread[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:18] [color=SandyBrown:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Yes Traxx[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I think I only have one.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: This is actually going to be a nightmare with the new tools if the founder died or the account is closed, no one will be there to confer the new powers[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: the mechanics of groups and of sim ownership encourage autocracy[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Ok, you can take my place, Prokofy...[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: .... and since Rubaiyat has just entered, I would like to thank him for letting us use his place today![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=DarkSlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Angela Salome[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Pro, then the members can all leave and make a new group.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=SandyBrown:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Real group management isn't possible until more than one person's assent is required to do something, say sell land.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: What power do I have that any officer doesn't have except to remove officers?Z[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:19] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: They don't *have* to encourage autocracy unless autocrats are at the levers : )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:20] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Claude, you can manage all you like, but not enforce[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:20] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: yes but if you have group builds, deeded land, and all the members objects on sims set to that group, why should you be forced to make a new group?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:20] [color=YellowGreen:2rxjjhqi][i:2rxjjhqi]Can't create object because[/i:2rxjjhqi][/color:2rxjjhqi]
[color=SeaGreen:2rxjjhqi][i:2rxjjhqi]the parcel is full.[/i:2rxjjhqi][/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:20] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Why can't we experiment with new forms of group decision making?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:20] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I hope the Lindens will manually fix this problem because it's havoc.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:20] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Biscuit ? what other forms do you think that we could/should have?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Please tell me what the problem is.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Look at the recent Elf split. Personality conflicts ultimately doom groups in SL[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: The only power I know of that I have as foounder is the power to remove officers.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Well, something that attempts to remove some of the ego from decision making?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=Navy:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Although that can be compensated for.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Why spell such doom and gloom over one elf spat??[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Prok that's something of an overstatement[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: any group can have multiple owners[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Power to confer powers too Ludo, that's the problem[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:21] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: if the group decides that there's risk in only one person being the owner, they can change that[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:22] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: you will wake up on the day after the ne3w group tools with officers having no power to sell land, only owners will[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:22] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: NO, any officer can make an officer, I;'m pretty sure.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:22] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Owners can confer powers only, have ou seen the preview/[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:22] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I can understand the attraction of having an impartial system take over some of the decision making say for a sim, instead of owners[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:22] [color=Teal:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Simoleia Kavka[/b:2rxjjhqi]: eyes thats correct, any officer can make another officer[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:22] [color=Teal:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Simoleia Kavka[/b:2rxjjhqi]: yes*[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:22] [color=SandyBrown:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2rxjjhqi]: But if you have multiple owners, can any one owner sell the land?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:23] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Oh Lord no, no "impartial systems" coded by all-known tekkies who in fact will be the real powers, no thanks[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: So there's a new thing called a group owner coming?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:23] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I want human agents in this system, hell no, I don't need your NPCs[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Yes, Claude.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:23] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Sim - any Owner can make another owner, or not[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Claude - yes, if owners are given the right to sell land[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: those are the sort of decisions that need to be made[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Given by whom.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: The owner has the power to make the others in the group owners too with all powers, or have a hierarchy of powers[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: a lot more flexibility in the tool, but a lot more decision making[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: but only that owner can confer the first round[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Robin, I think we're getting a big improvement in the tools[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: At least conflicts in SL groups aren't as cutthroat as Eve Online.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: you can play with the tools on the 1.12 preview grid[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: The only glitch is if the owner died, is a defunct account, or refuses to cooperate in changing the group under the new tools[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=SandyBrown:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2rxjjhqi]: And any one person given a certain power can exercise it.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I hope so Traxx![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: even though most residence won't use all those capabilities[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:24] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: this is the real weak point of these amazing new tools[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Eve online encourages ruthlessness, though, doesn't it?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: It's particularly good for business groups where people are investing in sims[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Prok - we're actually looking at the legal implications of inheritance as it relates to SL accounts[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: the TOS already allows that[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Groups there are BRUTAL[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: One thing we SERIOUSLY need is a way to make it legal to share accounts[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: well this is a very real problem, Robin, if you had an alt found a group who is now defunct, or you have one of those no-show officers[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:25] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hmm... I wonder if I might ask you a question, is ALL sort of "management" in SL tied to groups?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=Navy:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:2rxjjhqi]: That's so. It's a real weakpoint... it's not an entirely insurmountable one, but we have it here in NFS... while it is in Sudane-as-Rudeen's best interests to NOT buck the system, technically as sim owner she could.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: yes this idea that you can't have collective or business accounts that a group can log on to is really crippling[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: yes it is Prok, although I have to say it feels a bit like a corner case[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=SandyBrown:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Or share authority> Any owner can pay the tier on a sim to LL, for example.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: ie. is there no ALTERNATIVE to groups?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Sudeane has a great track record though[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: we've only had one request in all this time, from someone who's still alive, about how inheritance would work[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Inevitably, the more group stuff you bring in, the more legal hassles[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: some like Azure Islands get to have this and advertise they have this; others like Anshe Chung don't have it and don't get answers about getting to have it[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Co-ownership. Of land, objects...[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:26] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: it needs to be made available to all as an option[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:27] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Well, Gwyn, how can a social animal such as a human (even a post-human) not organise into groups? It is what we are evolved to do.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:27] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Perhaps we could create Businesses in addition to groups?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:27] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Um, I didn't sign up to be a post-human yet, I dunno.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:27] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Aaah Biscuit,[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:27] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: again, the issue of "one-size-fits-all".[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:27] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: That's ok Prokofy, I'll keep you as my pet;)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:27] [color=DarkSlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Angela Salome[/b:2rxjjhqi]: We're not yet at the stage where we can create mind-copies of ourselves, so we're forced to group to cover all areas. ;)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: *rolls eyes*[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: What about creating Agreements instead of Groups?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][i:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Biscuit. Go on... ;)[/i:2rxjjhqi][/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Which would improve it how?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=SandyBrown:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2rxjjhqi]: How do you do enforcement?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Yes, that would be the question. How?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: or who?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: glad you could make it, Puli : )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:28] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: the issue for me is...[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (welcome, Pulaski :) )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: can I ask what sort of agreements?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: how human beings can more effectively agree with each other[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][i:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman has a premonition of a sea of lawsuits over virtual group holdings.[/i:2rxjjhqi][/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: we've been thinking about "covenants" which are essentially agreements regarding group owned land[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: hehe Pallmor ;)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: what other sort of agreements?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Agreements to act/do tasks[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: achieve goals[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=SandyBrown:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2rxjjhqi]: In world contract enforcement[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: so enforcement would have to be at 2 levels[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:29] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Biscuit, iRL, an "agreement" is a bit of paper, that can be enforced under a court of law 8at the extreme). How would that work in SL?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:30] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: For one thing we must understand that no point of view is 100% right or 100% wrong.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:30] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: one is intra-group and the other might be inter-group[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:30] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I would think LL would only be involved in the latter[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:30] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: if that[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:30] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: That sounds very interesting, Robin! Do you have an idea on how that would work?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:30] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: nope[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Not to worry, a friend of mine have snagged all the supreme court justices names that just came up in the list, we're opening up 512 District Court Monday[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: oooh lol[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][i:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden grins[/i:2rxjjhqi][/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: I get the impression that LL wants as little to do with contract enforement as possible[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Say what you really mean, Robin. LL doesn't have the staff or time to deal with this stuff if we're constantly having to come to you to resolve our myriad of conflicts.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: well I think we have some responsibility[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: i don't think we should be trying to mimick the obligations that law imposes in rl[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: but I think the residents do as well[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: So do I, Traxx ? and I'm still waiting for Biscuit's suggestion![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: so the challenge is how to draw that line[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Robin, you already resolve conflicts you should just institutionalize it with Ombudsman Linden so that we have formal redress.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:31] [color=DarkSlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Angela Salome[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Bye, all.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Bye![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (bye Angela)[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: what's ombudsman linden?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: bye Angela[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: people will never agree on where that 'line' should be : )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: LL already seizes groups, expels officers, grabs land, puts Governor Linden in groups during various emergencies[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Traxx: most likely it will be some sort of escalation, don't you think?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Hmm, a "neutral" third party that would act as in-world mediator.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=Blue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2rxjjhqi]: i think we should be experimenting with other structures[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=MediumTurquoise:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ranma Tardis[/b:2rxjjhqi]: anh another problem might be that not everone is a citizen of the host country the United States[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: so all that should be done is to formulaize it so there is a place to appeal decisions[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:32] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: "neutral" here means: non-resident.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: (which just leaves the task on LL's hands :) )[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2rxjjhqi]: The system has to be self-sustaining somehow. LL can't deal with a lawsuti everytime to group has a schism.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Ranma: good point[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: an ombudsman can't take the place if dispute resolution or a justicie system, but he can promote justice, solve meta-systemic cases, resolve institutional matters sometimes, perform investigations[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Pallmor: pragmatist, as always![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: whatever happens, it should recognize a broader cultural impact[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=Sienna:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Um, I was wondering, seeing as we are discussing self-governmence, how can we reconcile the individual's right of free expression when that clashes with another's rights?[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Ludo Merit[/b:2rxjjhqi]: You know, folks, we could establish mediators ourselves.[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:33] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: No thanks, Ludo, they can't be trusted, most of them are merely keen on putting themselves in a whitelist and others in a blacklist[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:34] [color=Red:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Prokofy Neva[/b:2rxjjhqi]: you can't have justice until you have ELECTED the other branches of government[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:34] [color=SlateGray:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Traxx Hathor[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Ludo, we do have a Mediator group in SL[/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:34] [color=DarkGreen:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Robin Linden[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Prok - another generalization![/color:2rxjjhqi]
[16:34] [color=Black:2rxjjhqi][b:2rxjjhqi]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rxjjhqi]: Extropia: at "group" level, that's rather simple to do. By entering a group, you accept that some of your "total" freedoms are exchanged for benefits of being part of the group.[/color:2rxjjhqi]

"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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Gwyneth Llewelyn
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Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[16:34] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: it's doing it backwards to suddenly appoint or acclaim a group like SL Mediators to have these powers[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:34] [color=Indigo:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Calamari Ricardo[/b:ddxq59wo]: I thought we were a narco-syndicalist commune[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: Maybe two.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:34] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: calamai: who is "we"?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:34] [color=Blue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Biscuit Carroll[/b:ddxq59wo]: lol calamari[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:35] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Prokofy Neva finds it unsettling to have to stare at pictures of Lenin and Trotsky while having a discussion about justice.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:35] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: So freedom means the freedom to choose the manner of my constraint?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:35] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Prok: you can look at tesla instead (he's on the wall, as well ;) )[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:35] [color=Navy:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:ddxq59wo]: and everybody loves Tesla.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:35] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Extropia: I couldn't have said it better myself ;)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:35] [color=SandyBrown:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Claude Desmoulins[/b:ddxq59wo]: At some level for any of this to work don't you have to voluntarily accept someone elses's authority.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:35] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: I think so.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: I wonder if it's possible to get benefits, but not give anything up....[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Claude. "Voluntary" is the key.[/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=Blue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Biscuit Carroll[/b:ddxq59wo]: safe, consensual, sane[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: We're all afraid of authority. That's why we don[t want to volunteer to agree to any.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=Blue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Biscuit Carroll[/b:ddxq59wo]: hehe[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: In the short term yes, but tit for tat would soon weed you out.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Traxx, in my own philosophy, things only work when you give up little, to get much more in return.-[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: SL denizens are burdened by the conflicting desire to belong to a group and their desires for idependence and autonomy[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: How much of this can be written in code (or even should be)?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:36] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: This is all a talk shop though, I want to hear what powers this new "advisory group" has that was created in SL Views, and whether they will have any powers of dispute resolution[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: it needs to be subject to revision[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=SandyBrown:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Claude Desmoulins[/b:ddxq59wo]: But if you then withdraw that consent whenever it does something you don't like, what's the point?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: No Prok, they don't[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ludo: again, who is this "we"? ;) (think about so many communities in SL who truly give up almost all their freedom, in exchange for what they see as a greater benefit)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: The mentors, helpers, greeters already have powers, while we sit here chatting, will they be resolving disputes?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: That's the $65K question, Robin. I don't envy your position of have to sort it all out[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: No Prok, they won't[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn shudders at the thought.[/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ok well has anyone outlined and therefore circumscribed their powers?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Yes, actually[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: well you shudder but they have the greatest power of all: to shape incoming new impressions[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:37] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: one sec....[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: who wants a notecard with Mentor principles?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: ME[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=Blue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Biscuit Carroll[/b:ddxq59wo]: Pls![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ah, do you truly think so, Prokofy? Most people that come in to SL are really not children, ready to be brainwashed... sorry for quoting you on that :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Those are just vague goals Robin[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: it would be good to get feedback, since it's a draft, but that seems outside of the discussion intent[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=MediumTurquoise:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ranma Tardis[/b:ddxq59wo]: Me too Please[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz raises his hand I want one[/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: I'd be happy to have one but it's not specific as to real guidelines, like can they sell newbies their goods and drag them to their stores?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: ok[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:38] [color=Purple:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gennie Crowley[/b:ddxq59wo]: may i have on eplease?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:39] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Gwyn,you would think they WERE children the way everyone clucks over them and fusses over them![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:39] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: I'm not the one brainwashing them either, as I don't staff the OI and HI : )[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:39] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Thanks:)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:39] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden gave you Mentor Principles 1.0.[/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:39] [color=Gray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Salzie Sachertorte[/b:ddxq59wo]: Robin, may I have as well?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:39] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: thanks, Robin[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: aaah well Prok, again, over-generalising.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: What is the PROCESS by which resident governance will be formed?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: That's really the only thing to discuss[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: PROCESS[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Oh![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: ok - did I miss anyone?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: I wonder if that will *ever* happen![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Purple:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gennie Crowley[/b:ddxq59wo]: me please?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: because this sim or that sim can get a government, but the PROCESS is what matters[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: yes me please Robin[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Gray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Salzie Sachertorte[/b:ddxq59wo]: thank you[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Very likely the answer is *no*.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Gwyn, it already is happening.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: You are soaking in it.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: you were first Prok! but I'll try again[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:40] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: To pretend otherwise is to pretend your sim here is just about architecture.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Got it thanks[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: Gwyn, I'd like to revisit one of your statements about people being willing to give up nearly all their freedom[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ah well, Prok ? you give us too much credit, really. 1 sim in 2866.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Sure Traxx ? please do.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: I don't think that's very attractive[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: nor is it necessary[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: with an amplifier, Gwyn, such as Thinkers' meetings and now the SLICKI[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: consider a voluntary association of sims, each owned by a separate individual[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: World Domination Now?.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:41] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: Out of curiosity, Robin, how big is the current LL staff?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Um, between most online worlds where the company that created it wields supreme power and an online world where the company that created it does not get involved at all..to which end of the scale would we find the ideal balance?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Pallmor I think there are about 90 FTEs[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: hard to keep up[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Extropia, first I want to understand whether this IS a country or a web page, and whether we are residents or browsers.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: I think both and none :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz[/b:ddxq59wo]: Extropia I agree with your statement but SL is not most Onine worlds[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: And I suspect most of those are dedicated mostly to technical issues, no?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=Navy:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:ddxq59wo]: Prokofy, your answer is "yes".[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:42] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: I am a resident but my primary is a browser.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Traxx, your comment went unreplied... hehe[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: an increasingly smaller percentage, but yes, development is the largest group[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: When two sims (imagine that as an example) associate,[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: : )[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: \they'll "lose" something in the process.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Well, Traxx may not want to have limits on powers; others might.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Even if it's just the freedom to ignore each other :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: potentially they might lose very little, and gain much[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: what about two large landowning groups Gwyn[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: But they "gain" by hmm, having more things to do together.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: So maybe a few dozen employees to resolve conflicts over almost 3000 sims and 300,000 "players"[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:43] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Well,[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: there might be economic gain[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=Blue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Biscuit Carroll[/b:ddxq59wo]: A loss is something that happens in the past. a gain is there for the future.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: what if they had similar covenants, and decided to acknowledge each other's rules[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: I agree that SL is not like most online worlds. But equally it is not quite as 'by the people, for the people' as the world wide web is.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: unless they're working as a cartel to set prices (and in that case, they'd also "lose" the ability to fix their prices individually),[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: isolated sims are at a disadvantage for flyover traffic[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: in effect coming together on the mainland as a larger managing entity[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: oooh that sounds like a plan, yes :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Robin we are back to enforcement again, the covenant is a glorified notecard; we have those already.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: You don't even need to have fully overlapping sets of rules[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:44] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Who will solve the dispute between sim X and Y that had joined together but then fought over scarce prims?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: well that's not what you'll end up with[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Teal:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Simoleia Kavka[/b:ddxq59wo]: i would be happy to volunteer[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: in any case, I see it as a simple trade-off question. How much are you willing to lose, and how much can you expect to win in return.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz nods in agreement with Extropia[/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: they could mutually acknowledge the relevant subset of rules[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: We have to find better ways to handle things among ourselves, there is no question about that.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Aye traxx[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Well who gets to decide which subset prevails?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: And pallmor, naturally so. The big question is naturally: what? :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: in RL courts decide jurisdiction and scope, who will decide that here?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: And yes, that too, Prokofy.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:45] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: the void sims?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz[/b:ddxq59wo]: when X and Y sim enter a partnership they should set the rules of how they resolve their own disputes[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: I'd go for that, Puli[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: but RL contracts stipulate dispute resolution in court x in jurisdiction 7[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: trust me, you will be running to our 512 district Court[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: : )[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Now let's imagine X suddenly throws the rules out of the window. How will Y deal with it? :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: DIdn't some law students set up a court in Sl? And wasn't it dismissed as a total waste of time by all and sundry?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: Gwy, if I knew the answer to THAT, I'd be applying for a job at LL ;-)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: I'm anxious to see how that court will work Prokofy[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz[/b:ddxq59wo]: Y will walk away[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Not Extropia[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: not at all[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:46] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: I know a RL company that uses covenants instead of contracts.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: hehe Pall ? well, think about it :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: it was intimidated into changing its name; it was law students who weren't serious[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: the big challenge there seems to be to gain the trust of the residents that it will make fair and reasonable decisions[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: don't mistake that failed effort which was media hype for a resume as lack of interest in justice in SL[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: A covenant is not enforceable in court like a contract.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: there is a huge hunger for justice[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: the other big challenge will come when someone is @toaded, and LL has to decide whether or not to comply[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: look at the forums if you want to see hunger for justice[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ah then my sources were less than accurate.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ah well, Robin ? right now, there is just one thing that works: unblemished reputation. And this is something as scarce in Sl as prims in a 512 m2 plot :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: I think at some point, though, LL will have to delegate some of their enforcement power to some in-game entity/entities[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:47] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: I agree Pallmor[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: so, should there be some sort of certification?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: should it come from LL?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: I don't agree Pallmor and Robin[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: Definitely a clean rap sheet![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: because it will be illegitimate[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: not representative[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: not democratic[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ok, Pallmor. *That* sounds like a plan, but who/how?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: just your overlords you appoint -- hell no.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz[/b:ddxq59wo]: I hope not Pallmor[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: And how will that certification will be validated?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Prokofy I continue to think that democracy is not going to happen in SL in the way you describe[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Neither do I :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: They said that in the Soviet Union too Robin : )[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:48] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: oh, lol[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: "democracy from above" hmm[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: History is not on your side on that one.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*[/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: How do you think it will happen, Robin.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: change from above with pressure from below[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=MediumTurquoise:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ranma Tardis[/b:ddxq59wo]: think it comes down to trust in the end, we have to be able to trust one another. It is our trust in each other or lack of it that makes or breaks any group[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Purple:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gennie Crowley[/b:ddxq59wo]: perhaps this meeting is not for new investors, or perhaps new investors should reconsider ?!?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Magenta:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Redaktisto Noble[/b:ddxq59wo]: Good lord what did I just walk in on?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: LL simply isn't big enough to keep up with all the in-game tussles. It's not reasonable to keep running to them everytime some group has a internal squabble[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: haha Redak :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: It's a socialist coup abetted by state capiotalism Reaktisto[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ranma I couldn't agree more[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: well but that's why they have their 1600 overlords in place[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: This is a secret meeting to establish me as the Supreme Galactic Emperor of SL:)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:49] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: they take care of all that[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: Actually I agree with you on that one, Pallmor[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=Magenta:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Redaktisto Noble[/b:ddxq59wo]: What a scoop Extropia and Prokofy! ;)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Fail to encourage democracy in SL, Robin; see another game company put it somewhere else and win over the customers.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: That's your historic challenge.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman salutes his new Supreme Galactic Emperor![/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: hahah[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz[/b:ddxq59wo]: Look LL and already excute a citizen we all live with that threat I get out of line I can be ban forever why shoulf ll get involved with the transaction of 2 partys at falls in the code of conduct that already exists[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: Who says the Lindend aren't encouraging democracr5?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:50] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Well, prokofy ? what about the ones that DON'T want democracy at all?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Not to sound peevish,[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: They can have their system on their sim[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: we're talking about the system in betwen the sims[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: the meta system[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: the system that ensures the freedom of either democracy or slavery[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Prokofy I just don't see how a democracy can work inside a business, which this still is[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: that's got to be a hell of a system[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: but for almost two years I've been trying to round up the ones truly wish for "democratic institutions", and all I've found was 38 people. Out of 315k :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Let it?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: We're part of your business, too.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: A court system with real power will ultimately be neccessary, I thinkl[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Don't we count?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Pallmor ? that means: LL-sponsored?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: Gwyn, you're finding the people who enjoy being the crafters of systems like that[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Pallmor, one ssecond ago, you dumped democracy and representative government[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: now you have a Troika court with Vyshinksy[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: thanks![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: that's how they ALWAYs do it[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: yes, Gwyn. That's where they'll have to get enforcement power[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Also the participants, Traxx. Most people get scared and leave. It's the "trust" issue again.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: have an appointed executive with no checks and balances[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: illegitimate to the core[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=RoyalBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pulaski Fizz[/b:ddxq59wo]: a court for all sl or sims that choose to listen to it?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: I wouldn't advocate that Prokofy[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: I didn't say the court would be ELECTED[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:52] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: A "voluntary" court? :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: appointed[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Pallmor, I'll see you in 512 court as soon as I can spell that southern sim where we're opening[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: Most of us like looking at a system being crafted, but don't feel a personal need to be governed[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ok, then: a court where people voluntarily submit to it?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: A suit against you for disturbance of the peace is being filed.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: I wouldn't call it being scared![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: I say anyone who does not want to see a democratic Sl should be sent to the Minestry of Love and made to suffer the hellish Room 101 until they see the error of their ways.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ah! The Cornfield :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: judges are elected in some countries; appointed in others[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=Magenta:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Redaktisto Noble[/b:ddxq59wo]: Such a court reminds me of the voluntary arbitration system in Snow Crash. You pay someone to settle a case for you.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: Lol, take it all, I've had too much for too long. ;-)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: yes well they want to replicate Snowcrash[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Do go on, Redak...[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: and it's working fine so far[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: Why would it have to be voluntary?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: ... would that work in SL?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=Blue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Biscuit Carroll[/b:ddxq59wo]: don't think we should be trying to conform to rl notions of democracy[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: why do RL notions of democracy have to be shed at the door just because we're electrons?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:54] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Pallmor: because many (I would say most) residents wouldn't care to have anyone with uh "authority" trying to implement such a system in SL...[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Blue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Biscuit Carroll[/b:ddxq59wo]: they have to be shed if we are coming from the future and not the past[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: They already do Gwyn[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: 1,600 of them[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: also the SLICKI[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Ah, prok, tsk.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=DarkSlateBlue:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Ludo Merit[/b:ddxq59wo]: Democracy is hard work. Who's gonna do the work?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: 1,600 workers Ludo[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: What's SLICK?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: plus the SLICKI[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: Look, LL choose the judges, they give them power of enforcement for internal game issues.[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: 1600 who?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: it's the new information base of rules, regulations, knowledge, codes, history, cases, news run by Gwyn and friends[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: what is an internal game issue?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: First, the "1600" are actually just 100 or so ;) ... and sliki is just one guy doing the hard work lol[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: the 1600 helpers/greeters/mentors/instructors[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=DarkOliveGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Pallmor Bergman[/b:ddxq59wo]: Everyone will complain. But, then, they always do[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: haha[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:55] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Robin: Prokofy means the mentors, greeters[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: are there 1600 of them?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Well who else is running the store?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: seems high[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Pallmor's Law :)[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Magenta:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Redaktisto Noble[/b:ddxq59wo]: It seems there's a kind of hyper-libertarianism in effect in SL currently, where the main right is the right to property and that right informs all other rights. And that may be the way it works in a place where citizenship is effectively determined by[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: well they say there are, look[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: there's 789 in the mentors' group[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: that's a LOT of mentation![/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: There are 1600 people *listed*,[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: but one thing is being *?listed*[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Magenta:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Redaktisto Noble[/b:ddxq59wo]: having an economic stake. What remains to be argued is, are all stakeholders equal?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Sienna:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Extropia DaSilva[/b:ddxq59wo]: Game? So long as we continue to think of this as a game how can we entertain anything so serious as the rise of democratic institutions?[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Redaktisto I think that's an interesting train of though[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: the other is being active[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Red:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Prokofy Neva[/b:ddxq59wo]: well they can be activated to serve the state when needed[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Let's look at where this came from[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=SlateGray:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Traxx Hathor[/b:ddxq59wo]: that's the reason I was asking, Extropia[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: Prokofy is right - there certainly were anarcholibertarian roots here[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:56] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:ddxq59wo]: Extropia ? that+s so very true. For the ones looking at Sl as entertainment, they couldn't care less...[/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:57] [color=Black:ddxq59wo][i:ddxq59wo]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Robin :)[/i:ddxq59wo][/color:ddxq59wo]
[16:57] [color=DarkGreen:ddxq59wo][b:ddxq59wo]Robin Linden[/b:ddxq59wo]: and we have built a 'propertarian' world[/color:ddxq59wo]

"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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Gwyneth Llewelyn
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Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[16:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Democracy can still flourish with a strong court. The court won't get invovled in most issues, just stuff like land disputes[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:57] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Well, it's state capitalism by some books Robin[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:57] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: the state feeds the land baron oligarchs[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:57] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Trotsky would call Second Life state capitalism[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:57] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: so then what comes next, and how does it get shaped?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:57] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: aha -- a concrete example -- how about cases of land swooping?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:57] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Where's Ulrika? she'd agree[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][i:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Robin's question :)[/i:2fo22n1a][/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Thhirds[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: This is why you need 512 District court, to devise effective remedies against land swooping[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: would residents like other residents deciding a case like land swooping, or would they say LL must decide[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: I'd see more a loose federation myself, Prokofy.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: What about mainland elections, and sovereignty on the islands?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: Rather than rail at what we have, let's look at the history of SL and figure out what we want to take forward and where the defiiciencies are[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: There is no propertarianism, Robin, because of the "any reason or no reason" cluases[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: A price is set. The owner forgot to set the buyer'[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: loose federations don't work[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: and again, I'd ask how much of the future should be hard-coded into the software?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:58] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: The history of SL forks[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Robin, some things would have to be dismantled though or their powers defined better to take it further[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor: what is the problem with them?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: Gwyn - that sounds promising[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: They're loose[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Sienna:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Oo..Queen Gwyn of Neufriestadt...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: The status of the Lindesidents for example.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: s name before setting the price. Someone is watching and buys it. That's sswooping is it not? Is it against TOS?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=RoyalBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pulaski Fizz[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor I can see a court limited to contract and land disputes and would be for that[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Robin good point - but the anarchy that reigns on the mainland is driving people away from SL.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: That can be done Prokofy if it makes sense for the whole[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: yes that's swooping[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: That's a start Pulaski[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: what's a Lindesident?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: well but consumer disputes are the most common, allegations of theft or fraud[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: residents who became Lindens[/color:2fo22n1a]
[16:59] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Linden, former resident[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Well, they could deal with minor consumer disputes too[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:00] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: ahhh[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:00] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Is swooping anti TOS, is it an offense?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:00] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: it's not covered, I believe[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:00] [color=Sienna:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2fo22n1a]: TOS?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:00] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: A lot of stake is being put on group tools and covenants to try to remedy land disputes and extortionist griefing[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:00] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: but it's a common situation where people get very agitated at each other[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Blue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Biscuit Carroll[/b:2fo22n1a]: falls under ALA[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: but the entire sim minus 16m could sign a covenant, and have no sway over the 16m[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=RoyalBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pulaski Fizz[/b:2fo22n1a]: the main should be as it is and if a group units to clean it up then great there a a number of nice sims on the mainland that have their sim in order and everyone is pleased we dont need to be told to be oderly[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: that's why meta policies are needed, and the issue becomes process then, fixing the voting machine to be able to vote for and implement polices[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: If you put it in the hands of groups all you'll get is talk and infighting.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Good point Prok. It's not a democracy but a series of covenants.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: True, but being careful solves it. The same applies to the caveat emptor that people praise and complain about.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Well, personally, looking at SL, I just see the possibility of "buy-in" systems. People voluntarily accepting (through, say, a click on their profile) to submit to a "resident court" or something like that.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: who here is in favour of having a voting mechanism for policies, not just software features?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Sienna:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Extropia DaSilva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Ok people, I have to go. It's been great! Sorry I didn't get to share my idea that would have solved all these issues. Next time maybe:) Bye![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Can't be voluntary. Has to be official[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Yes you build out from those who opted in[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:01] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Oh, I would :)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: I agree with that, Prokofy, within some kind of framework.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Gwyn, good one.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: well that's true now Prokofy, but that can change[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: pallmor ? what this would mean:[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: I guess that's what I'm tryiing to say[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: - the ones who are "in", they'd have protection[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: we don't have to assume that the current problems will persist[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: - they would encourage others to do the same[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: No, could be voluntary, then give groups power to ban people wjho didn't volunteer.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:02] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: -the ones who despise all sort of organisation, would be free to be residents of SL[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Problem: (naturally) ostracism, two classes in SL[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: A nice neighbor had[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: griefers and extortionists will always persist on 16ms for example Robin until you say "no sale of 16ms" or "no signs on 16ms" or "no sale of 16ms to non-existing residents on sims" or something like that[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: There can be a government for a mainland and still leave choice for people to move elsewhere on the grid. Vote with their feet into anarchy rather than out of it, like now.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: the ones who are "in the system", and the ones "outside" it.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Do you think the scammers, land thieves, etc. (the ones the courts need to punish) are going to VOLUNTEER to be subjected to them?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Yes, Redak[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Something like that.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Look how fast Caledon grew, because it was based on capitalism and authoritarianism with some delegated steward powers.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: There are already casts, basic and premium.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor ? no,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Sadly, a landowners' rule like that is probably all that SL can tolerate in these early stages[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: a neighbor had a problem with swooping, and LL didn't help her to her satisfaction -- how could your proposal help her, Pall?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: but people not willing to deal with that,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: would simply opt in to the system.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:03] [color=RoyalBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pulaski Fizz[/b:2fo22n1a]: I am only against a mandatort orginizations[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: I think torts suits should be filed for negligence perhaps[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Traxx, she would have went to the court first, not LL. They would have had to power to deal with it without involving LL[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pulaski there's a difference between default and mandatory.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Historically, companies don't become more responsible until they face serious lawsuits.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Aye, Pulaski :) Something like that. An organisation is in place; with enforcement powers; you opt in (or not ? your choice); if you opt in, you get justice, protection.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: if you wish anarchy, stay out of it ? and gom on withg your happy lives![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: But Gwyn if you opt in and the griefer doesn't, how does that work?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:04] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Gwyn what distinguishes this from a posse or a vigilante group tho? we have tons of those in SL alredy[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=RoyalBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pulaski Fizz[/b:2fo22n1a]: Yes Gwyeth sounds good[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Exactly, Red[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: redak ? griefers would be flagged as "opt out"[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: and not allowed to enter "opt in" areas.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: I beleive that would apply in the swooper case[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: well but opting out is sometimes the only moral thing to do[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=RoyalBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pulaski Fizz[/b:2fo22n1a]: there is no differance Prok[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: The problem, as said: ostracism, discriminations, two classes of citizens[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: how about this[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: except consent on a sim Pulaski[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: the offending land buyer would decline to participate[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: the groups that agree to cooperate can develop a common list[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:05] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Gwyn interesting idea. So would the map be a patchwork of opted-in and lawless plots/sims?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: those people who grief would be on this common list[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Give Robin the soapbox I want to hear this.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Aye, Redak :) ? at the beginning![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: and effectively removed from a larger and larger area of SL[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Please Robin, take the box :)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: so they make an alt[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: And what recourse will they have against specious, vindictive, arbitrary mass griefs, Robin?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: either they show they're willing to cooperate or they end up leaving cuz there's nowhere to go[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Robin when griefers run up against bans, they just make a new av.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: What if they mass-banned the wrong person?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Who decides who goes on the list![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Robin Linden is on the soapbox now![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Look, you guys are making it too complicated. LL apoints the judges (choosing respect SL citizens), gives them enforcement power, they can be petitioned in disputes and greivances, and can hand out real penalties[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: You want to turn over all these awesome powers to the mob.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:06] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:07] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: Prok please. I'm not interested in mob rule. That's just not constructive.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:07] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: What I'm interested in is how to build a consensus, or consortium, or whatever word you choose[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:07] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: that would start with land-owning (or renting) groups on the mainland[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:08] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: give them a way to work together and decide what the code of behavior might be[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:08] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: If two groups come up with rules that you don't like, you don't have to participate[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:09] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: as far as enforcement goes, the tools for access, age authentication,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:09] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: identity authentication and so on are in various stages of design and development[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:09] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: the next few months will be really important to where we go with governance[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:09] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: it will be really important to talk this all out and get some genuine dialog happening[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:10] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: because when all is said and done, my goal is to find a way for the mainland to prosper as a diverse and innovative place[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:10] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: I can't help but keep imagining Gwyn's dismal picture of isolated communities on the mainland[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:10] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: that's what I want to avoid. and we have a chance now to figure out how[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: end of speech![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Robin, the problem is that people behave like mobs when it comes to things like store competition, they mass ban a store rival, not a real griefer, I see this in Ansheland all the time.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: The soapbox is now free[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Excitijng![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: thank you Robin ![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: /[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: I wanna talk.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Thanks for that Robin. Look at all those typing hands![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Please take the box Ludo :)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: soapbox is free, Ludo[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: The question is about remedies: where someone goes when they are unfairly mass banned, or excluded, in a case like this, handing over tools and authority to sim owners is good, but there must be a place of appeal.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: I would just like to ask if any of you OBJECT to have a transcript of this logged?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:11] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: I mean that I want to be in on the talk that figures out how.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: (no need to say "I don't object" hehe)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=RoyalBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pulaski Fizz[/b:2fo22n1a]: I must go before I am ban from me rl household Be Good![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: My advice is this. Appoint a court (or courts) of respected citizens. Give them real enforcement powers. Let them take some of the burden off LL. There is my plan, Gwyn ;-)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: yes, Prokofy[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: that is an important question, and again, where the code comes in[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor, I agree with all of that,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: /one point -- it's more flexible to be able to agree on mutual subsets of rules[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: I would just prefer it's an opt-in system.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor, who gets to be the judge? Why do they have authority if appointed from above? and why would *your* plan be the one to be accepted? Who chose you to devise it?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: do we build a mediation system like Square Trade?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:12] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Palmor that does some of what is needed, but the TOS are so open that many causes of dispute would still not be addressed.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: maybe a reputation system ?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: what do you mean by Square Trade?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Profky. LL decides. Picks respected citizens[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Ideally, personally, I would even prefer *several* opt-in systems, ie. one would be able to set up on their profiles which opt-in system they would belong to,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: Square Trade doesn't get gamed[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor, that's not legitimate for many people, I assure you.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: like a "meta-group-covenant"[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: or do we code in processes for escalating complaints to resident boards and ultimately to LL judges?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Gwyn, several[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: The United Groups of SL.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:13] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: What if some kind of mainland government reclaim the mainland sim by sim, giving people the chance to opt in or making sure opted-in residents move into empty spaces? Then over time it could spread over the continent.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Yes Ludo ? multiple jurisdictions[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: LL judges, if you aren't having a democracy, Robin, unfortunately, that's the least biased of all other options.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: I agree Gwyn.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Of course ppl will complain. They always do. But in the long run it will make things better, and more sustainable for LL[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: It could be for the Group Tools v. 3.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Says who?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: If we go with our usual approach, we will design the tools, lay the foundation and then get out of the way[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:14] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Robin, are you satisfied that your approach of getting out of the way on the mainland has served your vision so far?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: No, but then we've had other things we've had to do. You must realize by now that we'll never be done.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: The IDEA is to get LL out of the way (or at least more in the background). It puts some responsibility in the hands of respected citizens[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor if the system spreads across SL, and people feel obliged to opt in or risk being called a griefer, then we'll see the equivalent of an SL-wide system of government[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Hurrah for the usual approach![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: So now we have the attention turning to the mainland so let's grab the opportunity![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Now that's the point, Traxx.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: Most residents do not want an SL-wide system of government[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: well but if you want to sell your "usual approach" you have to explain what it has accomplished besides what you yourself describe as downtown detroit in the 1970s.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:15] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Well, that's of course the idea, Traxx[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: And to encourage people to work under such a system,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: they will have to see the benefits,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: You like it because you like systems : )[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Oh, so if you don't want to take part in Pallmor's imposed judge system, you are a griefer all of a sudden?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: that's why I would call for "multiple jurisdictions"[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: as a resident you'd be able to see how they work,[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: if you didn't opt-in to some busybody mentor's idea of governance, what, you're a griefer now? huh?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: see if they are trustable or not (in YOUR eyes, not the eyes of someone else)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: and opt-in under the system you'd like best[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:16] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: Yes, you like systems *you* code and *you* control Traxx.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: No, prokofy ? you'd still have "opt-out" areas.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: LL will be appointing some of our best and most respected citizens to this--not just anyone[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: I agree with the idea to get LL out of the way. What if a new mainland continent is built that newbies can opt into and old people can move to with a resident government?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: well but they are Australia? filled with convicts?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: mass banned?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Others can go to the anarchical mainland.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: My mainland isn't anarchical, it has the rule of law.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmor, when anyone says "best and most respected" I shiver :) hehe[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pall, you're making it sound like a status thing![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: And so do hundreds of others.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: prokofy ? look how Australia has propspered :) (joking!)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Well, come on, we know who some of our best and brightest are.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:18] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Ludo Merit has just requested a turn on the soapbox.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:18] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: We're not in downtown Detroit, in fact, but it's NO thanks to General Motors and the Ford Motor Company![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:18] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: It is Ludo Merit's turn to speak, please take the floor[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:18] [color=Magenta:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Redaktisto Noble[/b:2fo22n1a]: Prok what do you mean your mainland isn't anarchical?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:18] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: Pallmore would you make that an application?[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:18] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: Now, naturally, I'll be the first appointment. ;-)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:18] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Ludo Merit is on the soapbox now![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:19] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Let's have Ludo on the box for a minute...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:19] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:19] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Ludo Merit is on the soapbox now, please hush![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:19] [color=Orange:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Neo Flight[/b:2fo22n1a]: All Go[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:19] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:20] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Consider First Life. It has serious consequences when things don't work ther so some very good systems for making things work have developed.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:20] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: And those systems cause lots of disagreement. A says that B's is unethical, b says that A's is impractical..[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: When the systems get big enough they're called governments, and to a certain extent these are opt-in systems. It's fairly easy for me to move to Sweden to get socialized medicine or to Australia or wherever.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:22] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: For whatever reason.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:22] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: Sl has far more freedom than FL in that regard. We can look at FL and see what sorts of things work and try lots of them.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: And, like governments in FL, SL groups and opt-in ruleset orgs would have to negotiate with each other.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: And if someone couldn't find any opt-in system in SL that they liked they could start their own.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:24] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: We are really doing that already on islands.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: But only the rich can start something on an island, and with that authority comes way more responsibility than I, for one, could handle.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=SlateGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Traxx Hathor[/b:2fo22n1a]: excellent meeting, Gwyn -- RL is calling me away though![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Pallmor Bergman[/b:2fo22n1a]: l/me still doesn't like the idea of making this opt-in. That will only invite chaos, more needless arguing and fracturing. Shouldn't be optional.[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DarkGreen:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Robin Linden[/b:2fo22n1a]: brb[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Ludo Merit[/b:2fo22n1a]: So doing something to preserve diversity and yet bring more order to the mainland is a fine idea. Let's not leave it all up to the Lindens. They don't want it. Let's do it![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: The soapbox is now free[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Prokofy Neva is on the soapbox now![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:25] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: thank you Ludo :)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Prokofy Neva is on the soapbox now, please hush![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: Are you sure you're not my alt? :)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Prokofy Neva is on the soapbox now, please hush![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=Black:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2fo22n1a]: (sorry)[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Shhh...[/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=DimGray:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]The Soapbox[/b:2fo22n1a]: Prokofy Neva is on the soapbox now, please hush![/color:2fo22n1a]
[17:26] [color=Red:2fo22n1a][b:2fo22n1a]Prokofy Neva[/b:2fo22n1a]: I'd like to return to the issue of process -- can the group Thinkers and one important Linden get to decide all these things? of course not.[/color:2fo22n1a]

"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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Gwyneth Llewelyn
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Transcript 4/4

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[17:26] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: There is already a process formally started called SL Views which is controversial which overrides the voting features[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:26] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I can see that working if there is a published list of principals that groups could subscribe to[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:26] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:27] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: but fragmentation would be a risk[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:27] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:27] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: So I think in fairness a process should be established for deciding governance issues, whether having "committees of correspondence" on sims or continents or community associations on sims or whatever[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:27] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: even without democracy in RL countries have labour movements or grassroots movements with some power to decide their affairs[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:27] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I'd like to see something done about the voting mechanisms on the webpage to enable policy formulation, building of blocs and coalitions, and voting on policies[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:28] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: maybe even disputes have to be on a mechanism on a page too[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:28] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: This is not the kind of thing that can be put to a darn vote! All we ever do is TALK TALK TALK. Debates go on, and on, and on. Nothing gets done when you do it this way. LL should just do it.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:28] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:28] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: the point is to make it as formal as what has already been esablished so it isn't this or that thinker or Linden or influential programmer or landowner who decides to appoint judges they like[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:28] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: LL already "just does it' but the very notion of what LL's rights and privileges are, in fact are debatable and are debated[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: who cares where it comes from if it's a good solution?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: The soapbox is now free[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Redaktisto Noble is on the soapbox now![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Eactly, Bis[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: My turn up here. I pre-typed my spiehl, so it should be fast.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: LL keeps saying they want any kind of user government on the mainland to rise from the bottom up.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Oh, I think there's a big difference between whether a judge comes from Pallmor's friendship cards or Robin Linden's friendship cards.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: But we need to recognize it can't come from that direction alone. They have the taxing power. They are the gatekeepers for new citizens.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:29] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: They buy and sell and create the land in a way that even a group comprised of 75% of the current residents could not do.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: back...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: they don't say that Redaktisto, find me a quoet where they say "bottom up"[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Shhh...[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: The experience for the newbie is chaos. Hopefully they discover some sane communities, but those are islands. Many leave, or are at least griefed, before they discover the options.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Thus I say we need an opt-out system for living under a user government.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: It shouldn't be mandatory, I agree. But it should be the default that new citizens find themselves in, or at least have the options to find themselves in.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: And that can only happen if the bottom-up approach and the top-down approach work together to make it happen.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=DimGray:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]The Soapbox[/b:3jh4qtz7]: The soapbox is now free[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:30] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: thank you Redaktisto![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:31] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I agree that zLindens and us need to work together, the more of both the better.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:31] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Would you have newbies rez into communism or slavery or anarchy or which government-on-a-prim, Redak?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:31] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: can you explain the opt out system?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:31] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Although I have some doubts on both yours and Pallmor's approches ;)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:31] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: And work is an appropriate word for thisl. It ain't easy.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Personally, I would still go for default being opt-out, and early on, get them on the opt-in system, but with *information*[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I advocate a minimal system at the top with structures that help people to create systems.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: here's a thought[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: prokofy, I fully subscribe to your idea of a "governance planning committee".[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Two ways it could work that I can think of: first, a new mainland with a user government could be created and new users could choose to go to a governed continent or a free-for-all continent. 2) the anarchists are made to create islands, instead of thos[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: e who support order[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: what if mainland groups, as well as island communities[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:32] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Opt-out will only lead us right back to where we started. And cause mucho conflict in Sl to boot.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:33] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: actually I said "committees of correspondence" Gwyn not "a Planning Committee" with Trotsky[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:33] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: could use a 3rd party registraion API and bring people directly to them[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:33] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: they could bypass our OI and HI if they want[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:33] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: they could create their own or send people to select areas[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:33] [color=Olive:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Jon Seattle[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Perhaps help island could include a values exam that would the direct you to the goverance system you favor?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:33] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Wow![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:33] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: yes I'm all for that, but of course those with the biggest continents will have a big headstart, it's Oligarchs 'R Us again.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: if you will put all these links on the home page though on demand, and make them buyable ad spaces like the classifieds, i could consider it[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Sims competing for newbies?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Robin ? that would be AWESOME.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I admire the Lindens for knowing how to provide tools for freedom but wow, that's beyond all I expected.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: The courts' power will mean nothing if a significant % of the citizens don't have to answer to them[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: That way if thesocial democrats want fresh blood, they have to pony up the cash for the ad[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][i:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn is very positively astonished![/i:3jh4qtz7][/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Indeed prokofy,[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I just love it![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: "Click here for Mr. Lee's Hong Kong!"[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Yes, make payments in L$,[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:34] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Great idea Robin![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: that will give LL another good money sink.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Oh wow.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: not a money sink, is it Gwyn?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: well that one is nearly finished[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: For placing ads :)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: "Prokofy Neva's rentals offer a mixture of humorous autocracy with early 1960s American civil rights and a touch of Asian values when it comes to security orbs: click here to move in!"[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: It would work for my business as I want to bring people into my Sim in an orderly way[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Like prokofy suggested ? each opt-in system/community would have an ad or something[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: exactly Biscuit[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: hehe prok ;)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: right Gwyn[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:35] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I think something like it may work, but it will need some mechanism from the top, Robin, to avoid it be8ing gamed.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: "Want to be told *exactly* what to do? Move into Tropika and get a free home and 30 lashes of my whip, click here."[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: you could create a website and register people there and bring them in through your land or the OI[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Ludo ? if people pay for the ads with L$,[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: it won't be gamed ? it'll be *bought* :)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][i:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman throws up his hands and yells CHAOS, ONCE AGAIN CHAOS![/i:3jh4qtz7][/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Franchised.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: What, Pallmor, you don't have an ad budget?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: haha Pallmor![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Not really Chaos.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:36] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I'm not sure I like making it by ads that have to be paid for.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:37] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: The problem is Robin, if you do not sell this as ad space, we will get this lame delicious stuff with the resident blogs where the same 6 blogs are on top every time because they make new pages and get saved in delicious[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:37] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Well, then, third-party sites bringing new residents in through a "registration API".[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:37] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Perhaps there should be a paid for section in the right hand column?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:37] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Ah, prok ? the art of fooling Google :)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:37] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: What about having *both* approaches then?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:37] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I think we'll see many different applications here[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:37] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Everyone should have a registration API for their website, wy not[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:38] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][i:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Prok[/i:3jh4qtz7][/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:38] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: yep[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:38] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: for example, a SL developer could work with a group outside of SL and create a special experience for their customers[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:38] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I think there are many possibilities and Robin is right that this is the hour of opportunity to hsape the future.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:38] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Robin ? this has been one of the most consensual idea ever, I guess you should push that to your devs right away :D[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:38] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: alternatively a community of furries could bring people in from a convention[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:38] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: The aggregate of sold social systems may not spell freedom and creativity on the mainland though, there has to be space for someone who does NOT want to register for goverment on a prim.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I do like that, Robin.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: or a landowner on the mainland could advertise their special community for people who love anarchy[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: whatever[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: yep[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Agreed, Pro\[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Prokofy ? yes, in that case, they'd just go to a spot on LL's usual registering procedure, and "click here for no special 'community'"[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: well they could leave those new sims on the edge the Badlands and leave them Unnamed[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: This has been an excellent discussion (at least the part I read). But I'm off to go rent some AnsheChung land (not going to the mainland!). Thanks all![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=MediumTurquoise:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ranma Tardis[/b:3jh4qtz7]: ah if a person decides to opt in to something is it possible at a latter time to opt out of it?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:39] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: watch while 75 percent chose that[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: It would have to be.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: 25 percent chose orientation to be guided, 25 percent will chose guided communities too[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: 75 will crowd on to the anarchy sims[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Yeah, Ran, right before the judge rules against them ;-)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: still you should try it[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: but of course the deck is skewed[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: ´/me totally agrees with Prok.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I'm sorry everyone. I have to get going. This has been great![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Ack[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Gwyn, will there be a summary?[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I haven't looked at the time,[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: whoever got free socialist sims to start, and made a killing in telehub malls and bought continents is way ahead out of the starting gate now![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Red:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Prokofy Neva[/b:3jh4qtz7]: but such is Second Life[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:40] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: sorry guys. This was supposed to be just a 1 hour meeting[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=Green:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Yogeswari Padar[/b:3jh4qtz7]: great discussion! thanks, everyone![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=Magenta:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Redaktisto Noble[/b:3jh4qtz7]: And (shameless promotion coming) be sure to read The Democrat, SL's newest weekly paper. I'm sure I'll have something to say about this discussion in a coming edition![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Robin ? yes, I'll post a transcript later.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=DarkGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Robin Linden[/b:3jh4qtz7]: bye! thanks for including me![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: hehe Redak :D[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Thanks a lot for coming, Robin. This has been truly great :)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: ... and naturally, that counts for all of you guys.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Hey, not to be impolite or anything. But if anyone here is a Independent Film fan, I just started a new group. IM me if you're interested[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:41] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ludo Merit[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Very good topic, Gwyn.[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:42] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Ludo, I can't take the credit for it today ;)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:42] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][i:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn says no more :)[/i:3jh4qtz7][/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:42] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: And Rubaiyat ? thanks for having us,[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:42] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I think that this place works rather well![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:42] [color=Yellow:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Rubaiyat Shatner[/b:3jh4qtz7]: my pleasure, no one broke anything[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:42] [color=Yellow:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Rubaiyat Shatner[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I'll tune the seating[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:42] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][i:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn gets rid of the litter[/i:3jh4qtz7][/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:43] [color=Blue:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Biscuit Carroll[/b:3jh4qtz7]: thanks Gwyn! thanks Rubaiyat![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:43] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: Next meeting about self-governance will be in 2008 hehe[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:43] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3jh4qtz7]: lol[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:43] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: thx for hosting, Rubaiyat![/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:44] [color=DarkOrange:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Moon Adamant[/b:3jh4qtz7]: very good discussion, everyone :)[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:44] [color=Yellow:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Rubaiyat Shatner[/b:3jh4qtz7]: you're welcome[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:44] [color=MediumTurquoise:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Ranma Tardis[/b:3jh4qtz7]: this has been very interesting[/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:44] [color=Black:3jh4qtz7][i:3jh4qtz7]Gwyneth Llewelyn pokes Salzie to wake her up.[/i:3jh4qtz7][/color:3jh4qtz7]
[17:44] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3jh4qtz7][b:3jh4qtz7]Pallmor Bergman[/b:3jh4qtz7]: I love it when we tackle big stuff[/color:3jh4qtz7]

"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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