Election Committee

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Rose Springvale
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Re: Election Committee

Post by Rose Springvale »

I don't usually get involved in these discussions but as a NON faction person, i have to say that tinkering with the factors to create a perceived desired result doesn't instill a lot of trust... and as someone who talks to many newcomers to our community, i can't figure out a way to explain that system simply. While i like Gwyn's proposal for its simplicity and clarity, i can also see how it can work to sustain the current polarization... and in effect requires those of us who see good points in different factions to choose "a faction" when what we really want is something in between... CDSF on growth perhaps, and Simplicity on style for example.

I've suggested before a style of what is known in the corporate world as cumulative voting, which might work to let us see exactly the preferences of the people, and is only a bit of a leap from where we are today. For those who don't know how that works, (and it is used to elect directors of most corporations), the number of votes are allocated to the number of candidates running, i.e., in our last election,each voter would be given 7 votes to allocate as he/she pleases. The total votes in the election, given a community of 80 voters, then, is 560 votes. The top seven vote recipients would be seated. In a totally balanced election, 7 candidates with 80 votes each would be elected. So to guarantee a win, 81 votes must be allocated to any particular candidate. A voter is free to allocate all 7 votes to one candidate, or one vote to each.

How to choose candidates becomes the issue then, and clearly will rely on personality, something we've avoided admitting we do in the past. I'm sorry though, your factions win or lose my vote based on the personalities representing them. So it behooves a faction to keep its strong personalities acting in the best interest of both the faction and the community. It really isn't fair to expect an LRA to have to babysit.

I also think the election of the Chancellor should stay with in the RA. The Chancellor needs to be someone with a skillset that most people dont' have, both technically speaking and with regard to availability. If there is one consistent complaint i've got about our Chancellor's it is that they never seem to be around much. In my opinion, Chancellors should attend RA meetings on a regular basis... they are the "superintendent" of the sims after all, and the RA meetings are the place where concerns tend to be aired. I see the biggest responsibility of the Chancellor to be enforcement of covenants.. and it shouldn't be left to the people to ask for that... the fact that we live in a restricted community should be enough of a voice that we want to have the covenants enforced. Appointment of other public servants is also critical. Those aren't by nature "political" spoils.. or shouldn' t be, imho.

There is a detachment in the CDS between the people and their representatives. Many of us do not wish to align with a single faction. A change to a system that requires personal accountability to the populace might help. A complicated mathematical formula will only make it harder to know how to vote.

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Re: Election Committee

Post by Jon Seattle »

Rose Springvale wrote:

I've suggested before a style of what is known in the corporate world as cumulative voting, which might work to let us see exactly the preferences of the people, and is only a bit of a leap from where we are today. For those who don't know how that works, (and it is used to elect directors of most corporations), the number of votes are allocated to the number of candidates running, i.e., in our last election,each voter would be given 7 votes to allocate as he/she pleases. The total votes in the election, given a community of 80 voters, then, is 560 votes. The top seven vote recipients would be seated. In a totally balanced election, 7 candidates with 80 votes each would be elected. So to guarantee a win, 81 votes must be allocated to any particular candidate. A voter is free to allocate all 7 votes to one candidate, or one vote to each.

I have been thinking about similar schemes for a while. The key drawback, is that such systems are easy to game. In particular such a system can be used for a stronger version of elimination. The total power of a person's vote depends on how many candidates they vote for.

As a very simplified example, imagine a two candidate race. If you give all seven points to one candidate and I split my 7 between two candidates, (say 4 and 3) your vote will count seven points for your most favored candidate, and mine will add only one point for my most favored candidate. Basically splitting a vote means erasing the overlapping points.

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Re: Election Committee

Post by Rose Springvale »

Actually the system guarantees minority rep... think of your example.
Two candidate race:
Candidate 1. 7 votes from Rose, 3 from Jon... total 10 votes

Candidat 2. 0 votes from Rose, 4 from Jon. total 4 votes.

candiate 1 is seated with 10, candidate 2 is seated with 4.. because we had 2 seats and both candidates got some votes. Now lets look at possible outcomes with more.. lets use 2 seats, 5 candidates running.

which means we have at least 20 voters.. so 40 votes available (2 votes per voter because there are 2 seats open)
if candidate 1 gets both votes from all 20

Candidate 1 40 votes
candidate 2 0 votes

but
since candidate 2 will surely at least vote for himself, this is not a likely outcome. Even if Candidate 1 gets all 39 others, candidate 2 is still seated.

now lets be a little more realistic.. bear with me.

7 candidates
560 votes

if everyone running votes for themselves, they will all be seated.But when more candidates are running than there are seats to win, the situation changes.
For this example, consider two candidates polarized... They will get the votes from their faction members that assure they will be seated... say there are 15 people in each of the two polarized factions..Candidate 1 gets 81 votes from FactionA members, and FactionA members then have 14 votes among themselves to allocate to someone else.

Candidate 2, likewise gets 81 votes from FactionB members, leaving FactionB members 14 votes to allocate.
That leaves 370 votes. (560 total less 190 spent by the two factions).. to allocate between six or more other candidates.
370 / 6 = 61.5.. not enough to assure a seat.

You are better with the math Jon.. see what would have happened with the last election with this system?

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Jamie Palisades
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Re: Election Committee

Post by Jamie Palisades »

I hope to hear something from Beathan's committee soon, and to hear what feedback citizens have provided.

Personally, mostly I agree with Rose's comments. Refute this, if you can:

There is a detachment in the CDS between the people and their representatives. Many of us do not wish to align with a single faction. A change to a system that requires personal accountability to the populace might help. A complicated mathematical formula will only make it harder to know how to vote.

I suggest that those fascinated with arithmetic, and factions, bear Rose's point in mind. Most new residents, and prospective citizens, are not here for the politics or drama. To be attractive to them, "government" should be quiet, predictable, and reasonably fair without fuss.

Find me a bill that does that and I'm in favor of it.

== My Second Life home is CDS. Retired after three terms
== as chancellor of the oldest self-governing sims in SL.
Jon Seattle
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Re: Election Committee

Post by Jon Seattle »

Jamie Palisades wrote:

There is a detachment in the CDS between the people and their representatives. Many of us do not wish to align with a single faction. A change to a system that requires personal accountability to the populace might help. A complicated mathematical formula will only make it harder to know how to vote.

I suggest that those fascinated with arithmetic, and factions, bear Rose's point in mind. Most new residents, and prospective citizens, are not here for the politics or drama. To be attractive to them, "government" should be quiet, predictable, and reasonably fair without fuss.

Find me a bill that does that and I'm in favor of it.

Pat's original STV would move a good way in this direction. It emphasizes individual candidates over factions. But I think the "vote for factions" vs "vote for individuals" debate is somewhat separate from the debate about the system used to count points. People who favor factions want a democracy of ideas not personalities, and those who favor individual candidates favor efficient administration over a contest of ideas.

I am in favor of doing both. That is designing a process where there are broad opportunities for direct participation in planning (the proper place for a contest of ideas) and ways of selecting effective administrators (the proper place for a contest of skills). But if you imply that we need efficient administrators only, I disagree. The CDS cannot adapt and thrive without the ability to innovate and that requires ideas for adaptation and extending our vision.

Oh, thats why I organized the New Guild to work the way it does..

Last edited by Jon Seattle on Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Election Committee

Post by Jon Seattle »

Rose Springvale wrote:

Actually the system guarantees minority rep... think of your example.
Two candidate race:
Candidate 1. 7 votes from Rose, 3 from Jon... total 10 votes
Candidate 2. 0 votes from Rose, 4 from Jon. total 4 votes.

I had assumed, of course, only one winner for two candidates. Jon lost in this case :D but, it may be because Rose deeply disliked the other candidate, or it could be that she realized that her vote would count 7 times as much as Jon's if she lumped all her votes on the one candidate. There is no real reason for people to vote their real opinions because by voting strategically instead they trade a small amount of risk for a very large potential gain. In the end, if a group of voters lumps strategically, everyone has to lump strategically or loose a sizable chunk of their influence on the outcome.

So we can look at this two ways. The first situation is exactly what we had last election. There was a way to lump points, but only a minority realized that this wold be a viable option. In that case, lumpers end up with more influence because they know they can use their strategy to deflate non-lumper's points. In the second phase, everyone understands how the system works, everyone will lump if unless they are indifferent to the winner. The difference is that your proposal makes lumping (elimination) a lot stronger than it was with the Borda point system with elimination. This is, I think, why a "spend points on an option" is never used in RL elections.

Now it is true, as you point out, that if there are enough candidates there will be minority representation, but proportional representation also does this and it does it in a much more transparent way. In fact if we are clever, we can expand or contract the number of seats so as to make sure minorities are represented.

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Re: Election Committee

Post by Rose Springvale »

Gosh, i don't see it that way at all Jon. Actually, by lumping the vote, it doesn't count 7 times as much because it has NO say in any of the other candidacies. While Rose may indeed deeply dislike the other candidate, she can't eliminate anyone, only assure that her one candidate gets all her votes. (i know it sounds a bit semantic, but if you think of the positive perspective.. the right to choose the other winner instead of the right to eliminate, it might help) She assures her candidate wins one seat, but actually jon's minority vote won.. it was that vote that chose the other candidate. Of course in a 2 person race this is a bit absurd, so bigger numbers will make more sense. My point though is that we don't have to increase the multiplier to affect the results.. as your example was, i thought, trying to show. I'm trying to figure out how i'd explain to a new person "we just kept trying mulitpliers until it made a difference in the results" and keep the new person's confidence in our system.

I'm not, incidentally, arguing for the elimination of factions as a source of policy or place from which candidates emerge ... it is hard work building consensus even among small groups. Factions that produce multiple candidates who are in agreement on policy give credibility to actual ideas and voters something to support beyond personality. I'd also submit that as we grow, it will be harder and harder for new people to vote without this kind of system.

I'd still like to see how the numbers would have worked with a cumulative system on the last election...i'll get my colored pencils out and see if i can explain it better.

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Patroklus Murakami
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Re: Election Committee

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

I'm happy with Rose's suggestion :)

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Re: Election Committee

Post by Jon Seattle »

Rose Springvale wrote:

Gosh, i don't see it that way at all Jon. Actually, by lumping the vote, it doesn't count 7 times as much because it has NO say in any of the other candidacies.

Ah, I see. So a voter takes a risk that the candidate may get too many votes (more than are needed) and those votes, and so the additional votes mean nothing in terms of selecting the remainder of the candidates. You are right, the risk element will tend to be an incentive to spread out points.

A extreme boundary example might be that Jamie is really popular, so everyone gives the bulk of their points to him (he gets elected), and so the six voters who don't like jamie get to select the six other people who get RA seats. Jamie then represents the 36 voters who voted for him against the other six who represent one voter each. :)

In order to simulate this I am going to have to make some large assumptions. I can't use individual candidate votes because in our current system those never cross faction boundaries and so they won't really approximate what happens when the candidates compete with each other. So I will use faction votes and we will have to pretend that they are for candidates. The second complication is that I have an ordering only, so I will have to make an assumption about how ranking relates to vote points spent by the voter. Rather than explain the algorithm, let me list the vote distribution:

1. If the voter voted for one faction only, I will assume they spent all 7 points on that faction.
2. If the voter voted for two factions, I will assume 5 and 2 points.
3. If the voter voted for three or four factions, I will assume 4, 2, 1 distribution.

In other words I am assuming a geometric function with rounding :) Probably not too bad in this case. Lets assume two seats, and I can list the number of points, percent, and number "waisted" that is vote points that go beyond those needed to elect the candidate.

Last edited by Jon Seattle on Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Election Committee

Post by Jon Seattle »

Result for the above simulation:

CSDF points = 111 (36.4%, 34 points above the mean, or 34 points not needed to elect the candidate)
NuCARE points = 79 (25.65%, 2 above mean)

And the two candidates that "lost":

SP points = 64 (20.78%)
DPU points = 54 (17.53%)

Because of the way candidates are elected, they also represent different numbers of citizens. CSDF in this case represents 23 for whom it was first choice, and NuCARE 12. This means that NuCARE voters get almost twice the level of representation in the RA, per capita, as CSDF voters. The voters who bet on SP and DPU (9 total) are not represented at all.

Later:
I tried this for milder weights: (7), (4, 3), and (3, 3, 1) also and got similar results:

CSDF points = 95
NuCARE points = 77
SP points = 74
DPU points = 62

Last edited by Jon Seattle on Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Election Committee

Post by Jon Seattle »

I will be going away to a meeting in Berkeley for a few days and will not have more time to participate in this discussion. Personally, I would prefer simple proportional representation with rounding. We would take the percentage of the vote for each faction, multiply by the number of seats and round. We may end up with a number or seats slightly above the target. Here are the results for the last full election:

CSDF 52.27%, 4 seats
NuCARE 27.27%, 2 seats
SP 11.36%, 1 seat
DPU 9.09%, 1 seat

The system's behavior is simple, perfectly clear, and demonstrably fair. As far as I can see it is the only proposal that:

1. Preserves a "one person, one vote" principle that is guaranteed by the UNDHR 21.3 and by the US constitution as interpreted by the US supreme court in Wesberry v. Sanders and many other decisions.

2. Does not exclude any group that can get a minimal number of votes.

3. Is a proportional representation system, not "winner take all". Unlike winner take all, proportional representation guarantees that every group ends up with a voice.

I know that there is some desire to preserve the strength of second and third place preferences. The problem is that there is no way to add those preferences to the total that is not open to debate, manipulation, and complex unintended consequences. Rose takes a stab at allowing self-valuation, but it adds an element of risk-based gaming that makes the mathematical behavior of the system very difficult to predict.

There is also a fear that eliminating second place votes will narrow the range of options. In practice this is not a problem because in almost all cases issues cross-cut factions. Let me give you and example. Say both CSDF and DPU favor developing a "Unicorns and Fountains" sim (thanks to Moon for the great silly example). Their stand on this proposal will effect the percentage of votes each party gets (add or subtract), but it will not determine their final totals. Nevertheless if there is wide public support for U&F sim, the votes, on the average, will tend to make it more probable that factions that support the proposal will be elected. In other words, given a multi-party system, voting for a single faction can be an efficient way for the public to communicate more detailed and complex preferences.

The CDS would benefit from a system that is easy to understand in the aggregate and that does not work to unnecessarily exclude voices.

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Re: Election Committee

Post by Rose Springvale »

i only have a minute, but wanted to quickly comment on one factor, and that is the need under the system I'm trying to outline, for there to be actual discussion and consensus building between factions/candidates to assure that no votes are in fact "wasted." I think that is a win-win for everyone.

I'll be back later to look over the numbers and other points.

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Re: Election Committee

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

*bump*

It would be good if we could make some progress on electoral reform in the new RA term. I'm bumping this thread to reignite discussion. I still think my proposed constitutional amendmentis the best solution but, what do others think? :)

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