Moderator: SC Moderators
The CDS needs to be owned by an Organization not by an individual.
This is LONG overdue.
We have the most incredible individual owning CDS, there is no worry with that. Sudane has done a great job and is as wonderful as any individual could be.. BUT........if we are
REAL
if we are to
SURVIVE
if we are to
GROW................
we must be owned by an organization and not an individual....!!!
We have a few options.. NonProfit, For Profit, LLC... ? coop?
Any thoughts?
I agree with ThePrincess; the true (RL) owner of the CDS sims should be an organization, not an individual.
If something were to happen to the current RL owner, what would the CDS do? If an organization owned the CDS sims, the leaders could change, but the organization would continue to exist.
Perhaps even more importantly, the CDS is currently beholden to the RL individual who owns the sims, which is fundamentally non-democratic. That individual may be fair-minded 99% of the time, but alas, we're all human. That's why real democracies have systems of checks and balances, so no one individual can have too much power.
There is also an issue of liability. As it stands, the individual who owns the sims bears the burden of liability associated with being a sim owner.
Lastly, there is an issue of taxation. As it stands, the individual who owns the sims must pay personal income tax on any profits earned due to their ownership of the CDS sims. That is clearly not fair - the tax burden should be shared by the community as a whole, not by an individual.
I think there needs to be some discussion about what kind of organization would be best. It's not clear to me whether the CDS would qualify for IRS 501(c)(3) nonprofit status, as such organizations must have a clear charitable, religious, educational, scientific, or literary purpose. What organizational status to RL cities have?
Sorry, I was wrong when I said that the individual owing the CDS sims must pay income tax on the profit.
They must collect money to pay for the monthly rent on the sims, and it's *that* money which they must report as income on their income tax. If they are running the CDS as a business (e.g. sole proprietorship or other), then they can also claim the sim rent as a business expense.
troymcluhan wrote:I agree with ThePrincess; the true (RL) owner of the CDS sims should be an organization, not an individual.
If something were to happen to the current RL owner, what would the CDS do? If an organization owned the CDS sims, the leaders could change, but the organization would continue to exist.
Incorporating has its pros and cons. The chief "con" is the paperwork: when you're a corporation (whether for or not for profit) the IRS requires reporting. The chief "pro" is probably the establishment of a formal structure for handling finances. As Troy pointed out, it would be nice to know that if something happened to Sudane someone else would still be able to handle the interface with LL. But I'd be willing to bet that Sudane already has something like that established already even if we don't know about it. And if not, it would not be difficult to do without incurring the overhead of incorporation.
troymcluhan wrote:Perhaps even more importantly, the CDS is currently beholden to the RL individual who owns the sims, which is fundamentally non-democratic. That individual may be fair-minded 99% of the time, but alas, we're all human. That's why real democracies have systems of checks and balances, so no one individual can have too much power.
I'm not sure why anyone feels "beholden" to Sudane in any greater degree than we would if she were elected Chairperson of the Board of CDS Inc. Incorporating would not make our designation of Sudane (or anyone else) as administrator any more "democratic" than our tacit agreement to accept her as agent does. And I would not feel any more "secure" if CDS were a corporation than I do now. One way or another trust has to be placed in an individual who will act as intermediary between members of the community and LL. Sudane has a track record here, and I'm happier counting on that track record than I would be selecting some other individuals to manage things just so we could say that we are being "more democratic."
troymcluhan wrote:There is also an issue of liability. As it stands, the individual who owns the sims bears the burden of liability associated with being a sim owner.
Not sure what kind of liability we're talking about here. The only "law" that applies when you get right down to it is the LL Terms of Service. What specific liability did you have in mind that would not be covered by the TOS?
troymcluhan wrote:I think there needs to be some discussion about what kind of organization would be best. It's not clear to me whether the CDS would qualify for IRS 501(c)(3) nonprofit status, as such organizations must have a clear charitable, religious, educational, scientific, or literary purpose. What organizational status to RL cities have?
Cities have their own special status that has more to do with enforcing tax compliance than paying taxes. I can't see any way that CDS would qualify -- for one thing CDS citizens are not American citizens! Perhaps there's something under another country's law that would work for us, but I doubt it. If we were going to use the US Code, we would probably have to make a case that we are an "educational" organization. That's actually not too difficult: as an experiment in electronic democracy, a little creative writing would probably do the trick.
What would be nice about being a 501(c)(3) is that LL offers discounts to not-for-profit corporations making it easier for us to finance growth. To me this seems to be the primary advantage of incorporating. Incorporating as a "for profit" just doesn't seem to have any advantages that we couldn't get just by doing a more formal job of organizing our "club." The "burden on Sudane" argument is a red herring unless Sudane herself is finding managing CDS burdensome and wants to explore other options.
Cindy
Tateru Nino just posted a story on the Massively blog about an SL community named Osgiliath that had 6 sims. Apparently they'd poured a lot of time into it and were very proud of it. Then, suddenly and without explanation, the individual owning the sims sold them. No more Osgiliath.
Here's a link to the full story: http://www.massively.com/2008/05/28/osgiliath-lost/
Thanks Troy that is awesome ........everyone needs to read that and then have big long THINK about it.....
whoaa Tat is brilliant.!
read that post everyone!
Desmond Shang: I'm quite impressed... I've never seen this part of the White House before.
POTUS Republic: An yer all thinkin' I was a lyin' noob, weren't ya? I'm the real McCoy, ain't I?
Desmond Shang: Yeah, you had me there. Who knew? I mean, especially after the griefing, I was kinda skeptical.
POTUS Republic: Well, me and Halliburton Hax go way back, and that Apache Helicopter was just begging to be used, son.
Desmond Shang: So I run a pretend micronation in the metaverse, and you run the western world. Is it much different?
POTUS Republic: Not really! Well, we get griefers too y'know.
Desmond Shang: It was pointed out I got no backup in case I suddenly drop dead from a freak accident, or something.
POTUS Republic: Oh, that's just ridiculous!
Desmond Shang: Yeah, I'm not worried in the slightest. I feel great!
POTUS Republic: Hey, want a pretzel?
troymcluhan wrote:Tateru Nino just posted a story on the Massively blog about an SL community named Osgiliath that had 6 sims. Apparently they'd poured a lot of time into it and were very proud of it. Then, suddenly and without explanation, the individual owning the sims sold them. No more Osgiliath.
Here's a link to the full story: http://www.massively.com/2008/05/28/osgiliath-lost/
There's a big difference between a community that's just getting started and one that's got a track record. As it happens, CDS has weathered a major crisis already, and I imagine there will be others. Our systems may not be perfect, but they seem to be robust enough to survive pretty serious challenge.
I'll also point out that it would not have mattered a hill of beans if Osgiliath had been some kind of "corporation." Ultimately control of sims rests in the hands of a single individual. What matters is not the form of the organization, but the reliability of the individual. And once that reliable individual has been identified, there is much to be said for leaving that person in place as long as he/she is willing. Having a person who is willing to act as such an "anchor" and leave the governing to others is a great way to promote stability. Having the "anchor" turn over in every election cycle would make me EXTREMELY nervous.
Cindy
Well said Cindy.
Leon
Most of the time individuals who fret and worry about dependentancy on individual personalities have an agenda... the imposition of their own personality in place of the one that they are worried about. Governments exist for the times when things go wrong and human communications fail. Law is a poor substitute for convivial behavior. To threaten to break something is effectively breaking that thing. to pick a fight is to start one. In the final analysis all we really have is trust in each other and a respect for truth, no matter how hard such things are to find.......
.......or, then agin we can just turn the whole thing over to Desmond, buy nice red and gold tunics with blue striped trousers, and learn to slap dance. Skarrry...I trust Desmond more than some of our own. 
First of all, let me be clear that I don't know anything about the individual who owns the CDS sims. I may have been in the same room as them, but we've never had a conversation and I really have no opinion of them, one way or another. So I have no agenda with respect to them.
As it happens, I also have land in Caledon. Caledon is philosophically different from the CDS - everyone there knows that Desmond owns the sims, is running Caledon as a business, and has the final word - and they're fine with that, just like someone would be fine with renting an apartment in RL.
I thought that the CDS was different - an effort to build something more like a democratically-governed city or state. What state is not the ultimate owner of its own land? (Who does land revert to when a parcel's fees go unpaid?)
The International Spaceflight Museum is a nonprofit company (ISM Corporation in RL, incorporated in Kansas). It owns the sim Spaceport Alpha in SL. The credit card that pays the sim rent is the corporate credit card. The avatar that owns the sim is understood to be the property of the corporation. If something happened to the CEO of ISM Corporation, the ISM corporation would continue to exist, the bills would continue to get paid, and a new CEO would be found.
You are right Cleo, it does appear to still be true...look what bjerkeleerie wrote in 2008:
bjerkeleerie wrote:Most of the time individuals who fret and worry about dependentancy on individual personalities have an agenda... the imposition of their own personality in place of the one that they are worried about. Governments exist for the times when things go wrong and human communications fail. Law is a poor substitute for convivial behavior. To threaten to break something is effectively breaking that thing. to pick a fight is to start one. In the final analysis all we really have is trust in each other and a respect for truth, no matter how hard such things are to find.......
I also want to bring up another point from this thread and its reopening by Cleo. It is interesting that Cleo brings up this dire thread just now predicting the ruin and downfall of CDS if it remained in the hands of one individual as the owner. This thread dates from what year...oh, right, 2008, when Cleo was still the former The Princess. And here we are in 2014, six long years later, three sims bigger, a full population, a roaring democracy. Is this another straw man for the 2014 campaign, Cleo? What is the point you are trying to make here? What sudden danger are we now in?
We might be alive but have not grown since then Cadence...
We had the AA "merger snafu" and since then the CDS has remained in the hands of a few and seen a decline and stagnation. Until the past several months that is, and despite SL being in decline, CDS has now regained its financial solvency and is growing............ But the reason to bring it up again now is that we are not only still alive. But we are no longer dying .. we are growing again and financially solvent again for the first time since the merger failed.
it might be time to make sure we are "sustainable"