Many apologies for the delay:
Meeting on 2008-05-09
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Justice Soothsayer: Got it
ThePrincess Parisi: hello
Claude Desmoulins has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Hi
Claude Desmoulins: Ok it's one.
MT Lundquist: hi all
MT Lundquist: brb
Claude Desmoulins: Please touch the recorder. Welcome all.
Claude Desmoulins: I'd like to shuffle the agenda orderl
Cindy Ecksol has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess Parisi: we came for the first item
Claude Desmoulins: ...and do new member nominations first, since it
will be quick, I think.
Claude Desmoulins: Justice, do you have anyone you want to nominate?
Justice Soothsayer: I would like to nominate Cindy Ecksol
Justice Soothsayer: Not sure if she's willing, as I havent asked her
Claude Desmoulins: I'd like to nominate Dnate Mars.
Jamie Palisades has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: He's not here, but has expressed willingness to
serve if approved by the RA.
Cindy Ecksol: I am also willing, claude
Claude Desmoulins: Do we need to split these or can we approve them together.
Claude Desmoulins: ?
Justice Soothsayer: Great, Cindy
Cindy Ecksol: thanks fo rthe honor
Claude Desmoulins: Jamie, The next step here is for these to get
considered by the RA.
Jamie Palisades: (I have a brief procedure question or two about SC
appointments, when the time's right for it)
Claude Desmoulins: Go ahead?
ThePrincess Parisi: me too
Jamie Palisades: 
nad that's one of them - may we just take these up
at our next meeting and be done with it? Or is something more
Byzantine required?
Claude Desmoulins: It's a straightforward approval item at the next
meeting, unless you want something mre Byzantine:)
ThePrincess Parisi: i thought you resigned justice
ThePrincess Parisi: dont you have to be put back in
Justice Soothsayer: no, I said I would resign if elected to the RA,
and I wasn;t elected
ThePrincess Parisi: would resign ohhh
Jamie Palisades: To finish off that first question, is it possible for
Claude please to post to the SC board the official nomniation (or
whatever the term is) so I can take it to RA tomorrow?
ThePrincess Parisi: and did you rule on anything to do with the election?
Claude Desmoulins: I'll post.
ThePrincess Parisi: just for the record hun
ThePrincess Parisi: ok
Justice Soothsayer: No, TP
MT Lundquist has indicated consent to be recorded.
ThePrincess Parisi has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jamie Palisades will wait, as that quesion of Prin's of policy
interest to him also -- is there a way for citizens to dscern, during
a pending set of actions, who's resigned and who's recusing
themselves?
MT Lundquist: good point
Claude Desmoulins: It would probably come out in the transcripts, but
I suppose we could ask for forum posts to have a moere concise record.
ThePrincess Parisi: moon had to resign to run for chancellor
ThePrincess Parisi: and she didnt get her seat back hun
Cindy Ecksol: and I believe gwyn said she resigned in order to run for
ra this time
ThePrincess Parisi: well.....
MT Lundquist: yes i heard her say that
Claude Desmoulins: And a bill to make that a legal requirement for all
is currently being considered, but to my knowledge hasn't been
approved yet.
ThePrincess Parisi: i think its unethical
Jamie Palisades: To finish off that thread - and then I'm afraid I
have abother mundane quick question about new appointments - let me
just make two observations., First, personally I am not sure our laws
are now clear when one, must, or ought to, either resign or recuse at
present. Second, let me notify you that the RA is likely to consider
constitutional amendments which might make recusal, at least,
mandatory in some circumstances by SC members. I look forward to that
conversation -- and with some intellectual interest to the idea that
some might have views about that involving 'founding documents',
choate or inchoate
ThePrincess Parisi: and inconsistent
Jamie Palisades: OK to move on to other mundanities?
Claude Desmoulins: Sure
Jamie Palisades: sorry to ask, but I understand (grin) that the SC is
the official Keeper/ Moderator of the Forums at forums.slcds.info. ...
Claude Desmoulins: Yes
Jamie Palisades: .. I understand that the neutrality and tone of that
venue is considered to have some importance and, well, official import
...
Jamie Palisades: so I am wondering two things.
Jamie Palisades: First, I can safely asume that all new SC members
will become moderators, nd all persons no longer on the SC are timely
removed as same? Or not?
Claude Desmoulins: I blieve that to be correct, though Gwyn actually
has master admin powerson the forums so has to do the adding/removing,
I think.
Claude Desmoulins: She has removed herself from moderation.
Jamie Palisades: Well yes (smile) that';s where I was going. Gwyneth's
kind services as site admin and with the hosting is appreciated - not
to mention her longstanding communitarian work to supply pertinent
content. ...
Justice Soothsayer: I believe there is a portal project group that is
working on developing a system that may be less dependent upon
individual contributions of labor
Cindy Ecksol: well, I can speak to that a bit
Justice Soothsayer: with roles that could be defined
Jamie Palisades: And as the Forums are used at present as an official
CDS medium, run by a branch of government, well, I am wondering about
the continuing SLA (undertaking to maintain it). AT some point we
should be sure that persistent arrangements are made -- regardless of
any individual, hm? -- and that it also integrates with ARri our CIO's
project, yes. Thanks. Just wanted to flag it for now.
Cindy Ecksol: the truth of the matter is that SOMEONE always has to
have the "master power"
Cindy Ecksol: it's just the nature of the beast
Cindy Ecksol: in the case of CDS, for example, Sudane controls
Rudeen...and holds the master keys
Claude Desmoulins: Also the question of changing the official
"ownership"of the site etc. has come up before.
Claude Desmoulins: I believe WHOIS records require a real person as
tech/admin contact for the domain.
Cindy Ecksol: so even the group that is working on the portal is not
going to resolve that issue: at least one of us is going to have to be
trusted not to misuse the power
Cindy Ecksol: yes, claude, that is true
Claude Desmoulins: Making the site more officially owned by CDS also
means hosting would need to be actually paid out of the budget.
MT Lundquist: but perhaps that person needs to be seen to NOT have any
apparent vested interest
MT Lundquist: this is not a comment on any individual
MT Lundquist: rather about oprinciple
Jamie Palisades: Cindy, it's my hope that we eventually will move
towards a more expokicit system of permisison allocatioins, which
includes backups. CDS of all places in SL should know why we never
ought put all control in one avatar's hands NO matter how
responsible they are. So I imagine there will be more chats about
tthat in the ftuure, while not undermining our gratitude for the long
hours people like Sudane and Gwyn have donated. I;m sure they would be
the first to agree that they ought to be ultimately replaceble if need
be. We should not be one untimely illiness away from a broken system.
Thanks, that';s all I had on that.
ThePrincess Parisi: i have word from the blue one
ThePrincess Parisi: that he is accepting
Justice Soothsayer: Princess, I don't understand your commment that
you "have word from the blue one... that he is accepting". Please
explain. Who is the blue one, and what is he accepting?
ThePrincess Parisi: Dnate is accepting the nomination, per his IM with
me, hes working and cannot attend now
Justice Soothsayer: Does this have to do with Jamie's comment?
Justice Soothsayer: Ah.
Claude Desmoulins: That's been agreed on for a while. We've struggled
for a long time with how to overcome the design limitations of things
like SL and WHOIS that tie things to single individual.
Claude Desmoulins: Now on to the petition regarding the 27 April RA meeting.
ThePrincess Parisi: did the RA meet on that day?
Claude Desmoulins: Please let the SC membership start, and we'll bring
in the rest of you in a minute.
Claude Desmoulins: Or was it the 20th?
Claude Desmoulins: Issue one - do RA internal procedures trump NL 5-11
language about Marshals of the Peace?
Claude Desmoulins: I would think not.
Claude Desmoulins: Justice?
Justice Soothsayer: I think the rights of the banned as set out in NL
5-11 would prevail
Claude Desmoulins: NL 5-11 also specifies who the marshals of the
Peace are, including the LRA.
ThePrincess Parisi: i was acting as a citizen being griefed not as a
marshal of the peace
Claude Desmoulins: I think the RA should be given some deference to
determine who might need to be removed from a meeting.
ThePrincess Parisi: so your points are moot
ThePrincess Parisi: i was personaly my self only ME being griefed
ThePrincess Parisi: and i was being harrassed and not allowed to do my
job for one and i feared for my life for anohter
ThePrincess Parisi: it was self defense
ThePrincess Parisi: and i dont appreciate this
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, I think the question is who can remove
others from public space, especially during a public meeting.
ThePrincess Parisi: its partisian
Claude Desmoulins: There is then the question whether you as an
individual citizen have the right to unilaterly ban an avatar from a
public space.
ThePrincess Parisi: and justice should take him self out of this
ThePrincess Parisi: right now
ThePrincess Parisi: cos he was the one that his faction did it
ThePrincess Parisi: it was gwyen and mooon setting me up
ThePrincess Parisi: and justusce is a factional representative and i
abhore this abuse to me personally in this venue
ThePrincess Parisi: how dare you
ThePrincess Parisi: i spend my life and money and time for this community
ThePrincess Parisi: shame on both of you
ThePrincess Parisi: shame shame
ThePrincess Parisi: you are both very very very out of order sirs
Claude Desmoulins: deep breaths everybody.
ThePrincess Parisi: how dare you justice and claude
ThePrincess Parisi: what will YOU do to protect ME
ThePrincess Parisi: nto the other way around sir
ThePrincess Parisi: while i serve my community
ThePrincess Parisi: and am laughed at
Jamie Palisades: ... Sorry, Prin, but my advice would be listen first,
an d react only after there's something to react to.
ThePrincess Parisi: they are spouting off irrelevant laws
Claude Desmoulins: First of all, you could have complained about the
situation, either as a member of the RA concerned that the meeting was
being disrupted.
ThePrincess Parisi: 1. justice was still waiting to be a RA memeber at
the moment
ThePrincess Parisi: i did
ThePrincess Parisi: i asked jamie
ThePrincess Parisi: he had already reprimanded the person in open
ThePrincess Parisi: and then the person he came after me personally
Cindy Ecksol thinks it does seem as though perhaps it would be a good
idea to hear prin's story from the beginning -- not to mention that we
hear the complaint in its entirety
ThePrincess Parisi: and gwyen told him to .. and so did moon, and at
the time the BIASED justice was stiiing there losing his RA seat
ThePrincess Parisi: justice has no right whatsoever to be involved with htis
ThePrincess Parisi: i want this table d until you have an unbiased SC
Cindy Ecksol: slow down, prin!
ThePrincess Parisi: justice wasd there sir claude
ThePrincess Parisi: and he was a RA hopeful at the time
ThePrincess Parisi: in the name of the party that griefed me
Claude Desmoulins: If you had been on your land, you would have been
perfectly find doing what you did. Since it was public space, the
procedure says a Marshal should have done the banning.
ThePrincess Parisi: i can defend my self in public too
ThePrincess Parisi: i am the CDS
ThePrincess Parisi: em and ever y citizen
Claude Desmoulins: Are you accusing the CSDF of inciting griefing?
ThePrincess Parisi: me and every citizen
ThePrincess Parisi: yes
ThePrincess Parisi: i am
ThePrincess Parisi: and justice is part of it now
ThePrincess Parisi: i am accusing justice too
Claude Desmoulins: WHat evidence other than their presence in the room
do you have?
ThePrincess Parisi: everyone in the room
ThePrincess Parisi: here and that day and every citizen who walks in our streets
ThePrincess Parisi: who has a right to defend themself
Cindy Ecksol: could we maybe start this whole thing over from the beginning?>
Cindy Ecksol: as in "what was the complaint?" and "what's prin's story
about it?"
ThePrincess Parisi: we have no SC to listen Cindy w e only have cluade
Claude Desmoulins: We can try.
ThePrincess Parisi: justice is part of the griefer
Cindy Ecksol: prin, do you have evidence on that? if so, you need to
tell claude.
MT Lundquist: have the facts even been correctly established yet?
Cindy Ecksol: exactly!
Justice Soothsayer is taking the deep breaths suggested by Claude
Claude Desmoulins: There was an avatar at the meeting - Dalton
Dreamscape, who it is generally agreed was running an anim.
ThePrincess Parisi: he was dancing in my face
ThePrincess Parisi: cos i asked him to leave and hush in IM several times
ThePrincess Parisi: he was touching me
Claude Desmoulins: Opinions idffer as to whether it was distracting,
disturbing or otherwise.
ThePrincess Parisi: i was trying
ThePrincess Parisi: HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU SAY IF I WAS DISTRACTED
ThePrincess Parisi: NO ONE CAN SAY THAT BUT ME
Justice Soothsayer: LEts assume for the sake of argument that it was
distratcing and disturbing.
ThePrincess Parisi: it was keeping me from doing my job and justice
you are not part of this cyou caused it
Claude Desmoulins: It is further agreed that the princess banned Mr.
Dreamscape from the praetorium
ThePrincess Parisi: i am easily distracted
ThePrincess Parisi: i di d absolutely i did
MT Lundquist: Prin has made a statement about whetehr a particular
member of the sc has authority to preside in this. That question
should be settled first
Claude Desmoulins: Jamie, I didn't see it in the trans, but I may have
missed something. Did you warn Mr. Dreamscape that he was out of
order?
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: Reply coming, but let me first release what I'd
already typed: Frankly, I missed the 'what is the complaint" part
too... sorry, but a slightly less Star Chamber approach would, be to
specify who is accused by who of doing what, and how it might violate
law, I think. ... while this 'proceeding' did not start out that way,
I think I have now evntually heard answer to all of that now *except*
who complains? and what rule is asserted to be violated? ...
Jamie Palisades: now, to answer Claude:
Jamie Palisades: No, I was presiding, and unawaref a problem between
Dalton andThePrincess.
ThePrincess Parisi: i IMd you
Jamie Palisades: So no ruling -
ThePrincess Parisi: i asked you to ban him
ThePrincess Parisi: then i click ed on him and saw i coudl so i saved
you the trouble
Jamie Palisades: - that's true, Prin, but in meetings like that most
simultaneous acts take a span of time for everyone to catch up.
ThePrincess Parisi: i know
Claude Desmoulins: Gwyn- Justice, can you get the complaint onto a
notecard, my machine can't handle that at the moment...accuses
ThePrincess of violating the provisions of NL 5-11 by unilateraly
banning Mr. Dreamscape from the Praetorium, which is public space.
ThePrincess Parisi: but you had already told him to be quiet
Claude Desmoulins: After that, did he speak?
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, claude, but I don't have access to Gwyn's
complaint (or ThePRicness' response) at the moment.
Jamie Palisades: hm - let's rely on the transcript for that. (looking)
ThePrincess Parisi: no he didnt but................he instead entered the room
ThePrincess Parisi: and danced in the middle
ThePrincess Parisi: that was fine
ThePrincess Parisi: but then
ThePrincess Parisi: ( with teh CSDF telling him what to do )
ThePrincess Parisi: he got in my face
ThePrincess Parisi: see what you dont knwo sir
ThePrincess Parisi: is that gyweneth was urging him
ThePrincess Parisi: telling him that if someone does a thing that isnt
exactly ... doing a illegal thing
ThePrincess Parisi: then its illegal
ThePrincess Parisi: and dancing isnt illegal
Claude Desmoulins: How do you know that CSDF members were directing
Mr. Dreamscape?
ThePrincess Parisi: so he got in y my face
ThePrincess Parisi: i hear her
ThePrincess Parisi: see sir
ThePrincess Parisi: the thing was they weremad at me
ThePrincess Parisi: it was the day justice lost the RA race adn the
day taht DPU came in first
ThePrincess Parisi: and prior to the meeting
ThePrincess Parisi: they thought CSDF came in first
ThePrincess Parisi: but we had for gotten to o vote
ThePrincess Parisi: so at the begining of the meeting
ThePrincess Parisi: i voted
ThePrincess Parisi: then mt
ThePrincess Parisi: then well
ThePrincess Parisi: four other ppl
ThePrincess Parisi: and then CSDF lost
Claude Desmoulins: What do you mean you hear her? It's not in the text
record. Were you using voice?
ThePrincess Parisi: so gwyen was very mad at me
ThePrincess Parisi: text
ThePrincess Parisi: i heard gwyen say it and moon too
ThePrincess Parisi: that dancing is ok if its not leagal
ThePrincess Parisi: illegal
Claude Desmoulins: In text or audio?
ThePrincess Parisi: i cant remember when they said it but they did
ThePrincess Parisi: i knwo i read that
ThePrincess Parisi: they were urging him
ThePrincess Parisi: they met with him after the meeting
ThePrincess Parisi: congratulating him
ThePrincess Parisi: its petty childisness
Claude Desmoulins: If they typed it, why wasn't it in the transcript?
ThePrincess Parisi: i click on his avatar and removed me from my face
ThePrincess Parisi: it may have been after.. or i knwo gywne was also IMing me
ThePrincess Parisi: do i not have a rigth to defend myself if attacted in public
ThePrincess Parisi: in the line of duty sir
ThePrincess Parisi: gwyen IMd me
Claude Desmoulins: I don't suppose you kept a chat log of your own?
ThePrincess Parisi: they attacted me and i was set up
ThePrincess Parisi: no sir i dont anymore and if i did it woudl be
against tos to share it
ThePrincess Parisi: as IM chat is not public
ThePrincess Parisi: but she did say this why would i lie
Claude Desmoulins: If you have it, I
ThePrincess Parisi: if i was being attacted in public
Claude Desmoulins: am sure...
ThePrincess Parisi: can i not defend myself
Claude Desmoulins: ...we could ask for their permission to use it.
ThePrincess Parisi: i was attacked by gwyen and moon .. with the use
of a man called danton dreamscape
ThePrincess Parisi: jon was very upset with me for making him watch CSDF lose
ThePrincess Parisi: is danton dremscape a real person os a alt of
someone in CDSF
ThePrincess Parisi: who knows
ThePrincess Parisi: i know i was attacked
Claude Desmoulins: Did anyone else at the meeting hear or read things
that would substantiate ThePrincesses claims?
ThePrincess Parisi: during my service to this
MT Lundquist: yes i saw the attack
ThePrincess Parisi: MT was beside me and i know that other ppl did too
MT Lundquist: it was physical
MT Lundquist: as she says in her face
ThePrincess Parisi: i was having trouble reading open chat in RA
ThePrincess Parisi: it is hard to follow when
ThePrincess Parisi: well let me demonstrate
Claude Desmoulins: There is the history window...
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Jamie Palisades: (( a moment I am looking at hat logs etc - Danton D
seems not to have spoken, in open chat so that's not recorded, but of
course, a silent conga line of naked picketers would not be, eithr)
Claude Desmoulins: Does anyone besides thePrincess wish to present
evidence that the CSDF instigated the alleged attack?
ThePrincess Parisi: does this not bother you
Cindy Ecksol has cammed up above and isn't very distracted by the
dancing. makes us look pretty stuffed-shirt, though....
Claude Desmoulins: No, I'm using chat history.
ThePrincess Parisi: i dint cam up
ThePrincess Parisi: i watch jamie in ra
Cindy Ecksol: I'm watching jamie too...
ThePrincess Parisi: well it bothered me
ThePrincess Parisi: and the avatar was big
ThePrincess Parisi: huge
ThePrincess Parisi: an d bright blue
Claude Desmoulins: ThePrincess, if you would please.
ThePrincess Parisi: oh is it bothering you sir
Cindy Ecksol laughs and thinks "I think she got you claude!"
MT Lundquist: lol
ThePrincess Parisi: perhaps you should ban me
Claude Desmoulins: Not personally, though it rather hampers meeting decorum.
ThePrincess Parisi: am i disrupting on oh
ThePrincess Parisi: ok
ThePrincess Parisi: but we should allow in RA
ThePrincess Parisi: and not SC
ThePrincess Parisi: i rest my case
Justice Soothsayer: perhaps that should be for the whole RA to decide,
not just one member acting unilaterally
ThePrincess Parisi: so to speak
ThePrincess Parisi: it was to me
ThePrincess Parisi: me personally
Claude Desmoulins: That's the RA's call. as a unit, and decisions
should be made collectively.
ThePrincess Parisi: no justice i WAS ATTACKED
ThePrincess Parisi: its not for them
ThePrincess Parisi: it was fro MEEE
ThePrincess Parisi: noone else was being attaced
ThePrincess Parisi: atatacked
Cindy Ecksol thinks she has a point
ThePrincess Parisi: i was tryting to follow detailed conversations
ThePrincess Parisi: about important issues
MT Lundquist: the attack was centered on theprincess
ThePrincess Parisi: its really very hard to sit on RA
ThePrincess Parisi: and focus for two hours
ThePrincess Parisi: and there are always IMs and open
Claude Desmoulins: If each individual can ban by themselves, why have
laws at alL?
ThePrincess Parisi: and reading to do
MT Lundquist: self defence
Cindy Ecksol: claude did she BAN Dalton Dreamscape or just eject him?
ThePrincess Parisi: if a member of our community is being attacked i
hope they can act in self defense
Cindy Ecksol: there IS a difference....
ThePrincess Parisi: i ejected and banned
ThePrincess Parisi: it was a temporary ban
Claude Desmoulins: Thanks for the clarification.
ThePrincess Parisi: to finish RA
ThePrincess Parisi: then we coudl decide formally
ThePrincess Parisi: but i had a job to do
ThePrincess Parisi: and for the betterment of CDS he was temporarilly sent away
ThePrincess Parisi: if i had only ejected him
Justice Soothsayer: Claude, I would like to address this question for
a moment - without interruption.
Claude Desmoulins: Common law tradition suggests that a right to self
defense applies only after one has retreated to his or her own
property.
Claude Desmoulins: Justice, go ahead.
MT Lundquist: what!!!!
Justice Soothsayer: As a community, we have established rules about
how to handle disruptive behavior.
ThePrincess Parisi: when hei s faction attacked me
Justice Soothsayer: Codified in NL 5-11.
MT Lundquist: if attacked in a street i cant defend myself
ThePrincess Parisi: prove gwyen didnt do it
MT Lundquist: i have to run away and hide in my house
ThePrincess Parisi: she set me up seh was so angry at me , you have motive
Justice Soothsayer: uh, please, without interruption.
MT Lundquist: and hope i'm not chased on the way
Claude Desmoulins: Mr Soothsayer has the floor,
Justice Soothsayer: Those rules call for a process for banning people
from our shared public space, and
Justice Soothsayer: admittedly ThePrincess did not follow them.
ThePrincess Parisi: gywen set me up
Justice Soothsayer: The LRA is the one who should be permitted to ban
anyone from a public meeting,
ThePrincess Parisi: and now her fation is arguing against me
Justice Soothsayer: not anyone acting in their individual capacity.
Justice Soothsayer: I don't think there is really any dispute about
the facts. I have no doubt that ThePrincess felt under attack.
MT Lundquist: and i have asked if Justice should have the right to
pasrticipate and that question has not been addressed or answered
Justice Soothsayer: But in a public meeting, in a public place, can
she ban someone in self-defense? The question before us is whether
ThePrincess acted improperly, and if so, what should be done about it.
ThePrincess Parisi: i was doing my duty how dare you speak against me...
MT Lundquist: theprincess has been frozen
Justice Soothsayer: Since the RA passed the law on Marshals, it should
adhere to them. My suggestion is that
MT Lundquist: who did that
ThePrincess Parisi: i ahve been attacked now in public myself
ThePrincess Parisi: cindy did
Cindy Ecksol: I did....
MT Lundquist: she has told me cindy froze her
ThePrincess Parisi: cindy just froze me how do you do that
Cindy Ecksol: just wondering if it worked....sorry
Claude Desmoulins: Cindy that was out of order.
ThePrincess Parisi: thats what i did to the grifer
Justice Soothsayer: the SC formally apologize to the person who was
ejected, since it was not done properly.
Cindy Ecksol: yes, I was....and I apologize....
ThePrincess Parisi: i didnt know i coudl eject and ban on public
Claude Desmoulins: Though it makes a point.
ThePrincess Parisi: Your freeze expired, go about your business.
[11:55] You: i was doing my duty how dare you speak against me...
[11:55] Cindy Ecksol has frozen you for 30 seconds. You cannot move or
interact with the world. [11:55] Cindy Ecksol has frozen you for 30
seconds. You cannot move or interact with the world.
ThePrincess Parisi: what point dos it make, that CSDF will do whatever
they can to disrupt our community
ThePrincess Parisi: thats the point it makes to me
ThePrincess Parisi: theya re a party of griefers
Claude Desmoulins: Justice, are you done?
ThePrincess Parisi: and one is in our midst
Justice Soothsayer: Just one other point, claude.
Justice Soothsayer: Ther ehas been no evidence of any faction
conspiracy in this matter. I was at the RA meeting in question, but
had no interaction with the alleged attacker. I see no reason to
recuse myself, otherwise unsupported allegations of impartiality could
disqualify any member of the SC in just about any case.
ThePrincess Parisi: i wish i codld supenoa all your chat and i know i
coudl prove there was
ThePrincess Parisi: prove there isnt
ThePrincess Parisi: did the individual him self complain
ThePrincess Parisi: where is he?
Justice Soothsayer: So to conclude, I think the SC should declare that
ThePRincess violated the Marshals of the Peace Act by exceeding her
authority in ejecting and temporarily banning someone from a public
meeting, and that the CDS apologizes for the improper ejection.
Claude Desmoulins: Also, I would mention to the RA that the current
set up of groups and parcel ownership doesn't enable the execution of
NL 5-11 as it stands.
ThePrincess Parisi: and what does the opposing faction that got beat
that day get to decide this what a joke
Cindy Ecksol:
Claude Desmoulins: A point of information....
ThePrincess Parisi: so gywen sets me up, and then justice rules
ThePrincess Parisi: omg what a total joke
ThePrincess Parisi: this was a total set up sir claude
ThePrincess Parisi: that was the day justice found out cindy made him lose
Claude Desmoulins: Whether CSDF or DPU won the election is irrelevant,
since each would still have received one of the two seats being
contested.
ThePrincess Parisi: not even two seats ... and
MT Lundquist: claude you have not yet addressed the point of whether
Justice has a right to take part in this meeting
ThePrincess Parisi: well it is to reasonable ppl not to CSDF its not cluade
MT Lundquist: therefore this procedure is out of order
ThePrincess Parisi: i want this looked into that fact that gwyen made
a complaint about me and then justice gets to rule on the day they
watch me take the lead away from them
ThePrincess Parisi: and their blessed mandate
Claude Desmoulins: I am not going to ask him to recuse himself based
solely on your allegation. If someone has actual evidence of CSDF
involvement that they can present to this body, then we'll consider
it.
ThePrincess Parisi: motive matters claude
ThePrincess Parisi: no tehy never recuse when there is a conflicet
ThePrincess Parisi: the CSDF doesnt recuse they USE their power
ThePrincess Parisi: in their own interste
Claude Desmoulins: Again do you have evidence of motive other than
your recollection?
ThePrincess Parisi: against anyone that they can
ThePrincess Parisi: i will do so sir
ThePrincess Parisi: i will find it and bring it to you
MT Lundquist: he is accused point one
MT Lundquist: he was a direct witness and could be called as such point 2
Claude Desmoulins: What do you mean, MT?
MT Lundquist: he should not be participating in the decision
MT Lundquist: there is no seperation being shown here
Claude Desmoulins: If he recuses himself, then it would be just me, you realize.
ThePrincess Parisi: this needs to wait for a unbiased court
MT Lundquist: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Are you accusing me of bias? On what grounds?
ThePrincess Parisi: yes it needs to be heard after when a court that
wasnt part of the matter is sitting
ThePrincess Parisi: no not you claude
ThePrincess Parisi: but you are listening to justice
ThePrincess Parisi: and hes part of the whole thing
ThePrincess Parisi: in my opinion i was set up by his faction keep in
mind the setting and the time sir
ThePrincess Parisi: and the motive
ThePrincess Parisi: and the agnger they felt
ThePrincess Parisi: anger at ME
Claude Desmoulins: Even if he's not sitting on the matter, he has
every right as a citizen to indicate , just as you have, what he
believes ought to happen.
MT Lundquist: but is he sitting claude
MT Lundquist: that question needs to be answered
ThePrincess Parisi: we arent even sure justice needs to be in the SC
now that he resigned
ThePrincess Parisi: set em up, put em out
ThePrincess Parisi: their is a reason jamie has a bill pending on
conflict of intererst and its cos of this very thing
MT Lundquist: there is a real possibility here of a comflict of interest
ThePrincess Parisi: this is politically motivated dont you see claude
Claude Desmoulins: I would politelyt but firmly suggest that the bar
for mandated recusal hasn't been met until or unless you can produce
evidence of you allegations of Justice's involvement.
MT Lundquist: on those grounds Justice should not sit and should recuse himself
ThePrincess Parisi: its so obvious .. look at the day and the time..
and what he was doing there at all
ThePrincess Parisi: and what had transpired moments befroe
MT Lundquist: he is a witness
ThePrincess Parisi: and what gwyen said after
ThePrincess Parisi: and who even filed the complaint
ThePrincess Parisi: did the person griefed? no
ThePrincess Parisi: its so obvious claude
ThePrincess Parisi: it needs to have no evidence
Claude Desmoulins: Perhaps. But he has chosen not to and I feel
outside my authority absent additional evidence to compel him to do
so.
ThePrincess Parisi: how can a witness also preside
ThePrincess Parisi: i call justice as a witness
Claude Desmoulins: Believe it or not this is not a court.
Claude Desmoulins: Yet.
Claude Desmoulins: Let me correct myself.
Claude Desmoulins: This is a meeting, not a hearing.
ThePrincess Parisi: the person who complained to me also asked me to
ban her from the streets the next day
ThePrincess Parisi: mmon .. moon came to our shop and instisted to insult me
ThePrincess Parisi: nd she begged me to ban her
ThePrincess Parisi: she tried to upset me
ThePrincess Parisi: they are playing with the SC sir
Claude Desmoulins: If you want to ask for a formal hearing, you can do
so, pursuant to the judicial procedures in the CDS code.
ThePrincess Parisi: they came moon and gwyen the next day or two and
came in my shop and harrassed me
MT Lundquist: Claude can you explain to the meeting the basis for
considering this matter
ThePrincess Parisi: and stood in the street and asked me to ban her
MT Lundquist: is it a point of law
MT Lundquist: and its interpretation
Claude Desmoulins: I can't get to the wiki to read it at the moment.
MT Lundquist: is it trying to establish the facts
ThePrincess Parisi: so i knwo how this happened wasnt about danton
dreamscape, likely an alt of ms csdf
MT Lundquist: does the sc have the right to speak to individuals about this?
ThePrincess Parisi: they followed up after i knew they reported me anyway
ThePrincess Parisi: again to try to make their case against me bigger
ThePrincess Parisi: and justice is part of it cos the CSDF doesn
everything by vote of their own admission
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, the SC asked The Princess and Jamie for their
recollections. If others who were present would like to submit
notecards of their recollections.
ThePrincess Parisi: may aslo then i aske the other ppl in the room of
their recollections of me dancing in your face sir
ThePrincess Parisi: or was that about you and me
ThePrincess Parisi: or in a room five times this size
MT Lundquist: you have said this meeting does not act in judgement
MT Lundquist: are you considering a point of law then?
Claude Desmoulins: There is an agreement of fact that the Princess did
the banning.
ThePrincess Parisi: i did temporariily yes
Claude Desmoulins: The point of law in question is...
MT Lundquist: but you said this is not a court
MT Lundquist: what is the remit of this sc meeting
Cindy Ecksol thinks he's got you on that one...
Claude Desmoulins: ....whether NL 5-11 allows an individual citizen
who is not a Marshal to issue such a ban for a public parcel.
Claude Desmoulins: In that sense, this meeting is not considering the
facts of the event.
MT Lundquist: ok so you make the decision then what?
MT Lundquist: you said you are not a court
MT Lundquist: what sanction do you have if any once you rulle on that
point of the law
MT Lundquist: or is your jiob done when you rule
ThePrincess Parisi: but the story is what matters, it was in
retaliation for the last minute voting victory
ThePrincess Parisi: this was done purposefully with the use of justice in the SC
Claude Desmoulins: And in that sense, we would not mete out any
punishment without a hearing.
ThePrincess Parisi: to get me back for the LMVV
ThePrincess Parisi: it undermines the very thought of a SC
ThePrincess Parisi: and makes a mockery
MT Lundquist: do you have any authority to mete out any punishment
MT Lundquist: ?
ThePrincess Parisi: they knew justice goes back to the SC
MT Lundquist: what is the basis for that?
ThePrincess Parisi: LMVV made them do this claude the motivation is so clear
ThePrincess Parisi: CSDF, the faction that disrupts justice
Claude Desmoulins: I would propose the following. The SC finds that
ThePrincess's banning was not done per the mechanism set forth in NL
5-11.
Claude Desmoulins: Since the event took place at an RA meeting...
Claude Desmoulins: ...we leave to that body the question of any
disciplinary action, absent further petitions to the SC regarding the
event.
ThePrincess Parisi has been unduly incriminated
Justice Soothsayer: I'll second that motion, Claude.
Claude Desmoulins: Note that we make no comment as to whether the ban
was appropriate or not.
Claude Desmoulins: Merely that it was not done according to the
established procedure.
Jamie Palisades frowns, and thinks.
ThePrincess Parisi: if this is the price i pay for getting to watch
JOn seattle count the votes in the last hour and lose the CSDF lead...
oh my.. touche gwyennie
Claude Desmoulins: Concurring.
Claude Desmoulins wonders why Jamie frowns
ThePrincess Parisi: at me usually
Claude Desmoulins: Final item.
Jamie Palisades: I'll wait until youre finished, Claude, then offer
some comments if I may.
Claude Desmoulins: I'd like to propose , given the difficulty of
scheduling in world meetings, that there ought to be a way similar to
the RA closed discussion threads for the SC to conduct business
publically but asynchronously.
Justice Soothsayer: Good idea.
Claude Desmoulins: Thoughts from the ret of the SC?
ThePrincess Parisi: agreed.
Justice Soothsayer: IT would be easy to incorporate a similar forum
line, like the RA;s.
Jamie Palisades: May I comment on this, when SC members are done?
Claude Desmoulins: To clarify. The procedures would be amended to
allow the doing of business via a publically readable - SC only
postable forum. For each thread in this forum a parallel thread shall
be established in General discussion to allow citizen input.
Claude Desmoulins: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: As to using the Forums - I sE ethe virtue but also
see two issued raised. Oine is whetHER you will in fact continue in
some way to make it possible for parties in interest to presEnt their
views.
Jamie Palisades: Async forums with limited access can have a way of
veering towards internal non public chat
Claude Desmoulins: Via rthe parallel general discussion thread
mandated in the procedure change.
Claude Desmoulins: Also the SC discussion thread will be publically readable.
Claude Desmoulins: And the second issue?
Jamie Palisades: that would help - unless it tends to increase a
percepotion that SC decisions become an opaque STar XChamber huddle ..
theoretically
Claude Desmoulins: It's not opaque if everyone can read it.
Jamie Palisades: the secondis that it might be helpful...
Claude Desmoulins: and read the process that leads to it.
Claude Desmoulins: go ahead.
Jamie Palisades: .. to improve the rules aroun the claroity of
complaints, reponse opportuinites and he like at the same time
Cindy Ecksol: mmmm....yes.
MT Lundquist: i agree
Jamie Palisades: so that defendants feel that they know what they ae
walking into, generically,and what the gound ruls are.
MT Lundquist: this meeting was unclear
Cindy Ecksol: the scrapping of the attempt at a judicial code sure did
put process into a deep freeze....
Claude Desmoulins: That's a valid point.
Jamie Palisades: I know *numerous* folks who have walked into hee
wonderng what, if any, chance they';d get to defend themslves ...
andeven someimes wondering what the complaint was.
Jamie Palisades: sorry, but I see a opportunity for imrpovement
MT Lundquist: i second Jamies point
Claude Desmoulins: I would argue that putting that process in a
publically viewable forum would make it more transparent to more
citizens than in world meetings
Cindy Ecksol: claude, I think there are two parts to this.
Cindy Ecksol: one is publishing a process so that everyone knows what's expected
Justice Soothsayer: I have to agree with Jamie's point as well;
perhaps it is time to begin reviewing judicial procedures as well as
SC operating rules.
Claude Desmoulins: Agreed.
Claude Desmoulins: Can we move forward with the procedure change on the floor?
Cindy Ecksol: that publishing should include publishing the
"complaint" -- there's no reason the closed forums can't be used for
that.
MT Lundquist: And the remit of the sc in the meeting
Cindy Ecksol: remit?
MT Lundquist: that was not clear untill the end
Claude Desmoulins: Also agreed, but we'd need to make that part of
procedure a well so potential complainers would know that it would be
public.
Claude Desmoulins: *as well
Claude Desmoulins: Justice, do you concur with the proposed procedure change?
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, Claude, I agree with your suggested change.
Jamie Palisades: Cindy makes my point, in large part, yes - and
Claude, I do not see a policy problem. If someone wishes gov't redress
, let them do so in light.
Claude Desmoulins: Then we can use the ofrums to discuss other changes
so those changes are also in light.
Claude Desmoulins: Before we adjourn, I'd like to make a personal
comment about the recusal issue.
Cindy Ecksol: yes, seems ilke a piece of work that could be done that way
Claude Desmoulins: The LRA informs us that legislation is being
considered which would mandate recusal in some circumstances.
Claude Desmoulins: I hope the RA will be thoughtful as it sets that
bar. Balancing the risk of conflict of interest with the risk of an
allegation of such a conflict being used as a blunt instrument to
remove someone from consideration of an issue.
Claude Desmoulins: Having no other business. I move that we adjourn.
ThePrincess Parisi: personally i took myself out of anything eve n
close to being that way claude
Justice Soothsayer: Did Jamie have one furhter comment?
Justice Soothsayer: *further
ThePrincess Parisi: and i expect my fellow servants to do that same
Jamie Palisades: yes, thanks.
ThePrincess Parisi glares at justice
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: Gentlemen, I do not see a problem with your outcome,
in this case, if that's the SC's view on how best to reconcile general
law and RA procedure. It's not uncomon for courts to refuse as
'political' matters of internal discipline of another branch of
government. As the RA, we will need to take onboard the clarification
of our own procedures, I think.
Jamie Palisades: ... In my view *inappropriate* ejections
unquestionably may violate CDS laws. Even the LRA acting as a Marshall
could theoretically act inappropriately in that exercise -- say if he
kept zapping his debate opponents. So obviously those acts can't by
untouchable by the SC. ...
Jamie Palisades: Still, the methodology here disturbs me somewhat, and
I may simply take any comments to the Forums for further polite
exploration. And, no matter how rudely or crudely it was raised, I do
not believe recusal is an inapropriate question to raise -- ever. As
you know, recusal is the sort of procedure for which courts tend to be
given wide leeway -- as long as their polity is confident that it's
been handled probatively and clearly. Claude, I completely agree with
you that a careful balance is necessary.
Jamie Palisades: and we will try to keep that in mind. Thank you, done.
Claude Desmoulins: Now may we adjourn?:)
ThePrincess Parisi: ty
Justice Soothsayer: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Have a good afternoon.
The meeting closed at 12:42 Linden time.