Moderator: SC Moderators
The first meeting of the corporate structure questions commission will be held at 11 am SLT on Saturday, 26 July 2008 in the Colonia Nova Praetorium. All are welcome.
I will post a few more resource pointers here, by then. Agenda for the first meeting is to confirm the list of issues that need resolution, and make plans for answering (or gathering opinion) on each one.
Regards Jamie P
Meeting of CDS Corporate Structure Commission
26 July 2008
Neufriestadt Rathaus
[rough transcript; format edits to come]
[2008/07/26 11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn tries to chat and apologises in advance.
[2008/07/26 11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha.
[2008/07/26 11:04] You: YAY
[2008/07/26 11:04] You: the Xanax kicked in
[2008/07/26 11:04] Rose Springvale: wb Gwyn!
[2008/07/26 11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Rose
[2008/07/26 11:04] Rose Springvale: wonders what she's been saving up over there....
[2008/07/26 11:04] Cindy Ecksol: hi, sudane
[2008/07/26 11:04] You: 60 seconds then ( of our 3 minute break)
[2008/07/26 11:04] Sudane Erato: hi :)
[2008/07/26 11:04] You: then we start commission - ah hi Su :)
[2008/07/26 11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Sudane!
[2008/07/26 11:05] Delia Lake: hi Sudane
[2008/07/26 11:05] Sudane Erato: hi hi :)
[2008/07/26 11:05] Sonja Strom: I'm going to go.
[2008/07/26 11:05] Sonja Strom: See you later :-)
[2008/07/26 11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye, Sonja!
[2008/07/26 11:05] Delia Lake: bye Sonja
[2008/07/26 11:05] Sudane Erato: bye :)
[2008/07/26 11:05] Rose Springvale: bye sonja!
[2008/07/26 11:05] You: Thanks again Sonja, have a good weekend
[2008/07/26 11:06] Sonja Strom: you too :-)
[2008/07/26 11:07] Flyingroc Chung: just logged in to say I'm out for the day
[2008/07/26 11:07] Cindy Ecksol: bye!
[2008/07/26 11:07] Flyingroc Chung: blue-screening with increasing frequency
[2008/07/26 11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: happy day out, Master Chimp!
[2008/07/26 11:08] Flyingroc Chung: need to run some diagnostics
[2008/07/26 11:08] Flyingroc Chung: by
[2008/07/26 11:08] Flyingroc Chung: e
[2008/07/26 11:08] You: best of luck Roc
[2008/07/26 11:08] Delia Lake: bye FR
[2008/07/26 11:08] You: and let's get started
[2008/07/26 11:08] Cindy Ecksol: get a mac....
[2008/07/26 11:08] You: Corporate Structue Commission
[2008/07/26 11:08] You: haha Cin
[2008/07/26 11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
[2008/07/26 11:09] You: was announced here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1997
[2008/07/26 11:09] You: and of course in the RA minutes
[2008/07/26 11:09] You: and my outline for todaty is here:
[2008/07/26 11:09] You: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 742#p11742
[2008/07/26 11:10] You: and let's talk about expectations
[2008/07/26 11:10] Rose Springvale grumbles. this is an hour agenda??
[2008/07/26 11:10] You: here are mine:
[2008/07/26 11:10] You: ha ha no
[2008/07/26 11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think for 8 hours or so, Rose :P
[2008/07/26 11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least.
[2008/07/26 11:10] You: 1. this is an issues list
[2008/07/26 11:11] You: 2. I would like us to add to and refine it
[2008/07/26 11:11] You: starting but not ending today
[2008/07/26 11:11] You: and it;s my expectation this will take a while :)
[2008/07/26 11:11] You: so 3. we should agree on a sort of plan for a series of meetings, also
[2008/07/26 11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn states that she has been able to stall the whole insane concept for 3 years and a half now, and intends to continue to do so.
[2008/07/26 11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
[2008/07/26 11:12] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:12] You: You are welcome to stall an action, my dear - different outcome than stalling a productive exam of the issues
[2008/07/26 11:13] You: heh this ainl;t the citizenship commision
[2008/07/26 11:13] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
[2008/07/26 11:13] Rose Springvale: i think we would come to the same conclusion Gwyn, so lets just look at it
[2008/07/26 11:13] You: we need some good data and clarity, not necessarily a recommendatio -- the RA will do what they want, anyway :D
[2008/07/26 11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They will...
[2008/07/26 11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... while there is no incorporation.
[2008/07/26 11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: After that, the RA will obey national laws ;)
[2008/07/26 11:14] Jamie Palisades smiles
[2008/07/26 11:14] Rose Springvale: understanding the options, and determining pros and cons... means we have an answer every time the issue is presented
[2008/07/26 11:14] You: Kind of like LL, eh?
[2008/07/26 11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: speaking of which  there is an extra point  which jurisdictin?
[2008/07/26 11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (exactly, Jamie)
[2008/07/26 11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That extra point is just to be added to your "agenda", not to be given an answer *now*
[2008/07/26 11:15] You: good then - and understood
[2008/07/26 11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also
[2008/07/26 11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At some point, it was suggsted that there is a difference between "the CDS" and "the land owned by the CDS"
[2008/07/26 11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me try to clarify the idea...
[2008/07/26 11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The CDS is its own jurisdiction and legal entity; if not, we wouldn't be here  BUT it can "outsource" the content/assets/sims to a private organisation,incorporated somewhere in the world
[2008/07/26 11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So basically the "incorporation" would NOT be of teh CDS; but of the EO and the Content Archivist.
[2008/07/26 11:17] Rose Springvale wonders if LL would accept CDS as it's own incorporated entity
[2008/07/26 11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: From the CDS' point of view, consider that the "Institute for Asset Preservation" ;)
[2008/07/26 11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rose: sure, they accept anything :D
[2008/07/26 11:17] Rose Springvale: ah,and certify us for non profit status....
[2008/07/26 11:17] Sudane Erato: sure/.. if we legally are
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Rose
[2008/07/26 11:18] Sudane Erato: RL legally are
[2008/07/26 11:18] You: Thanks - this is good brainstorming - and we will take transcripts if no one objects, and refine our issues list each time with the results.
[2008/07/26 11:18] Sudane Erato: fine with me
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn assents to be transcriptd
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh oh
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn assents to be transcriptd
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh oh
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn assents to be transcriptd
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh oh
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn assents to be transcriptd
[2008/07/26 11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh oh
[2008/07/26 11:18] You: "uh oh"
[2008/07/26 11:18] Rose Springvale: lol
[2008/07/26 11:18] Brian Livingston: Well, we know that Gwyn is ok with transcripts...
[2008/07/26 11:19] Sudane Erato: SL! :)
[2008/07/26 11:19] Brian Livingston: AndI assent
[2008/07/26 11:19] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:19] Rose Springvale: from a legal pov, it might be fun to try that with LL
[2008/07/26 11:19] Delia Lake assents to a transcript
[2008/07/26 11:19] You: so
[2008/07/26 11:19] Cindy Ecksol assents to transcript
[2008/07/26 11:20] You: Can I hear from some others about expectations for this commission? We on the right rough course?
[2008/07/26 11:20] Cindy Ecksol: well, keep in mind that "incorporation" and "Not for profit status" are two separate things
[2008/07/26 11:20] Sudane Erato: yes! Cindy
[2008/07/26 11:20] Cindy Ecksol: we can incorporate but not be a notf for profit corp
[2008/07/26 11:20] Sudane Erato: incorporation is easy
[2008/07/26 11:20] Rose Springvale: and remember that not for profit does not mean charity
[2008/07/26 11:20] Jamie Palisades nods - and probably vice versa
[2008/07/26 11:20] Cindy Ecksol: yes.
[2008/07/26 11:20] Rose Springvale: yes, jamie, absolutely
[2008/07/26 11:21] Cindy Ecksol: in the US we would probably try to get approved under 501(c)(3) - would be tough to qualify under any other section of the code
[2008/07/26 11:21] You: brainstorm > refine outline > rinse > repeat?
[2008/07/26 11:21] Rose Springvale: mno
[2008/07/26 11:21] Rose Springvale: cindy
[2008/07/26 11:21] Rose Springvale: we would never qualify under 501 c 3
[2008/07/26 11:21] Rose Springvale: but there are lots of other provisions
[2008/07/26 11:21] You: (and we would under some others)
[2008/07/26 11:21] Rose Springvale: and there's no need to be 501 c 3
[2008/07/26 11:22] You: (and we might not need to at all unless our 'entity'ship takes us there)
[2008/07/26 11:22] Sudane Erato: god... legalisms that i understand!! :)
[2008/07/26 11:22] Delia Lake: and my understanding is that non-profit status still allows the organization to make a % of income from profit making activities...can't remember how much....20%?
[2008/07/26 11:22] Rose Springvale: wait
[2008/07/26 11:22] You: :)
[2008/07/26 11:22] Rose Springvale: it depends on the section of the code
[2008/07/26 11:22] Sudane Erato: yes
[2008/07/26 11:23] You: if we even were to become a thing to with the US IRC applies, yes :)
[2008/07/26 11:23] Rose Springvale: but
[2008/07/26 11:23] Cindy Ecksol: actually it's not so much about "profit making activities" as proof that those "profits" are invested back into the primary purpose of th eorganization
[2008/07/26 11:23] Rose Springvale: we can make money. its unrelated business income that is an issue
[2008/07/26 11:23] Rose Springvale: and what is at stake
[2008/07/26 11:24] Rose Springvale: is deductibilty of contributions, not a goal we seek
[2008/07/26 11:24] Cindy Ecksol: I recently spent untold hours putting together the 5-year "final determination" paperwork for a very small NFP, and that's what took up the time...
[2008/07/26 11:24] You: I;d respetfully suggest that a detailed pasre between flaviors of nonprofits under US tax law isn't the right vector of attack into these issues
[2008/07/26 11:24] Cindy Ecksol: yes, rose -- should have said that too
[2008/07/26 11:24] Sudane Erato: i agree
[2008/07/26 11:24] Rose Springvale: agreed
[2008/07/26 11:24] Cindy Ecksol: and Jamie is right too :-)
[2008/07/26 11:24] Rose Springvale: i'd like to understand
[2008/07/26 11:25] You: other general comments on expectations for this project>? I might have one too - in a bit
[2008/07/26 11:25] You: (Hi Pip)
[2008/07/26 11:25] Rose Springvale: what the community WANTS from this organizational change, and why, with some clarification
[2008/07/26 11:25] Rose Springvale: because this wheel doens't appear broken to me
[2008/07/26 11:25] Jamie Palisades grins: exactly
[2008/07/26 11:25] Sudane Erato: yes
[2008/07/26 11:25] Cindy Ecksol: well, let's go back to the concerns that have been raised this term
[2008/07/26 11:26] Rose Springvale: we have plenty of talent to "make" it whatever we want from a legal standpoint. but i'm not sure there is valid rational
[2008/07/26 11:26] Rose Springvale: rationale
[2008/07/26 11:26] Jamie Palisades nods
[2008/07/26 11:26] Cindy Ecksol: the main issues seem to be accountability (financial primariy) and long-term viability
[2008/07/26 11:26] You: OK Cin: those are ... what?
[2008/07/26 11:26] You: mm hmm
[2008/07/26 11:27] You: my outline point 1,1, fwiw - buit I like the way you said it better
[2008/07/26 11:27] You: if we conduct a fix-it-only-if-it-broke analysis ...
[2008/07/26 11:28] Cindy Ecksol: I can't disagree with the idea that it would be a good idea to structure in a wy that is (as much as possible) independent of a single person, but am not sure that "corporation" is the way to do that
[2008/07/26 11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: what does 'long-term' mean here? 1 year? 3? 25? :-D
[2008/07/26 11:28] Cindy Ecksol: "foreseeable future"?
[2008/07/26 11:28] Rose Springvale: i'd submit that any structure is only as good as the people in the position
[2008/07/26 11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok :)
[2008/07/26 11:29] Rose Springvale: and suggest a review of corporate history will support that there are as many opportunities for abuse in any structure
[2008/07/26 11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm well Rose... the whole purpose of the CDS is to prove that even if the people are not good enough for the position, you can vote them out ;)
[2008/07/26 11:29] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[2008/07/26 11:29] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:29] Rose Springvale: but that isn't going to put money back in an account if there is a problem
[2008/07/26 11:29] You: hm - let's stay with CDS needs for a few minutes ......does 'long term' as a concern really MEAN 'survives any given handoff between individuals'?
[2008/07/26 11:29] Cindy Ecksol: but I do agree with Rose.....and would submit that CDS is more like a "club" and needs good "club governance" than like a corporation
[2008/07/26 11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We've managed well so far ;)
[2008/07/26 11:30] Sudane Erato: well, i think the issue here is to figure out a structure where i could be voted out
[2008/07/26 11:30] Cindy Ecksol: there are other issues too, sudane
[2008/07/26 11:30] Rose Springvale: i think a better idea is to figure out a structure that ties sudane forever :)
[2008/07/26 11:30] Sudane Erato: yes... but the knotty one is EO
[2008/07/26 11:30] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:30] You: hm maybe Su - but you can be plreaced today by executive act - I'm more worried about whether single points of failure get hit by a truck, than anything else
[2008/07/26 11:31] Cindy Ecksol: for instance, if you WERE voted out, how would we transfer the assets to a new caretaker without disclosing your RL identity?
[2008/07/26 11:31] Rose Springvale: the only way to do that is a sim transfer
[2008/07/26 11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh, no,
[2008/07/26 11:31] Rose Springvale: no?
[2008/07/26 11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the sims are in Rudeen's name
[2008/07/26 11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not Sudane's.
[2008/07/26 11:31] Rose Springvale: yes.
[2008/07/26 11:31] Rose Springvale: sudane you have the wrong hat on
[2008/07/26 11:31] Cindy Ecksol: mmm....I'm talking about the bank account, not the sims
[2008/07/26 11:31] You: :)
[2008/07/26 11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhh
[2008/07/26 11:31] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The unexisting bank account is Rudeen's account with LL...
[2008/07/26 11:32] You: but the LINDENS account is also a n SL account attribute
[2008/07/26 11:32] You: :)
[2008/07/26 11:32] Cindy Ecksol: good point.
[2008/07/26 11:32] Rose Springvale: may i ask what the history is?
[2008/07/26 11:32] Rose Springvale: how did you all come to this structure?
[2008/07/26 11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh If I recall the details, Ulrika, Sudane and I discussed who would be the EO, lol
[2008/07/26 11:33] You: so, if we were to look at Rudeen as like Guilda Dollinger (late lamented) or , I dunno, Onrez's Commerce Leader .. basically the avatar becomes the "bank book" or control point
[2008/07/26 11:33] Sudane Erato: haha... yes
[2008/07/26 11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes Jamie
[2008/07/26 11:33] Cindy Ecksol: mmmm....so it COULD be done....
[2008/07/26 11:33] Sudane Erato: and her husband won't let her be it
[2008/07/26 11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The idea was that once LL implemented group-based sim ownership with 'L$ accounts', we'd switch to that
[2008/07/26 11:33] Cindy Ecksol: just establish a new "caretaker avatar" and have Rudeen transfer all the assets to the new one
[2008/07/26 11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, LL never implemented it.
[2008/07/26 11:33] You: which means, smile, that assuming I know nothing, CDS would be best advised to put some controles around the use of holding alts :)
[2008/07/26 11:33] Sudane Erato: yes, the avatar IS the bank book
[2008/07/26 11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[2008/07/26 11:34] Sudane Erato: important concept
[2008/07/26 11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* and underlines Sudane's words
[2008/07/26 11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Sudane is the *Treasurer*, a role in the CDS
[2008/07/26 11:34] Rose Springvale: still trying to figure out who rudeen married and why i wasn't invited
[2008/07/26 11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rudeen is a 'bot if you wish
[2008/07/26 11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rose
[2008/07/26 11:35] Sudane Erato: hehe... Rudeen is just a young-un
[2008/07/26 11:35] Sudane Erato: no wedlock for her :)
[2008/07/26 11:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... yet :)
[2008/07/26 11:35] Rose Springvale: lol
[2008/07/26 11:35] You: haha very funny, sigh
[2008/07/26 11:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: she'll be a very valuable bride!
[2008/07/26 11:36] Rose Springvale: so what checks are in place?
[2008/07/26 11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyway
[2008/07/26 11:36] You: next term, gwyn can introduce the No Married Land Bots act
[2008/07/26 11:36] Rose Springvale: are there shared passwords?
[2008/07/26 11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn *coughs*
[2008/07/26 11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's say that if something happens to Sudane *knocks on wood* we won't lose access to Rudeen.
[2008/07/26 11:37] Sudane Erato: yes
[2008/07/26 11:37] Rose Springvale: and i appreciate that and the sensitivity of it
[2008/07/26 11:37] Rose Springvale: but is there a process?
[2008/07/26 11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Zion Code ;)
[2008/07/26 11:37] Rose Springvale: or is this just a holdover of oldies have the power :)
[2008/07/26 11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hidden deep in the mysteries of the CDS :)
[2008/07/26 11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a buried protocol, forgotten by all,
[2008/07/26 11:37] Rose Springvale: yes?
[2008/07/26 11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but there are a few living members of the old conspiracy with access to the records :)
[2008/07/26 11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[2008/07/26 11:38] Rose Springvale: smile
[2008/07/26 11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, I'm on medication ;)
[2008/07/26 11:38] Rose Springvale: now
[2008/07/26 11:38] You: :) may I just pull us out of Rudeen's wedding trosseau for a sec? AHEM
[2008/07/26 11:38] Rose Springvale: gwynnie
[2008/07/26 11:38] Rose Springvale: the question is
[2008/07/26 11:38] You: :)
[2008/07/26 11:38] Rose Springvale: in a democracy
[2008/07/26 11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My surgeon advises that I might make less sense than usual ;)
[2008/07/26 11:38] Rose Springvale: how power is transferred
[2008/07/26 11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah well
[2008/07/26 11:38] You: Rose-- we have two issues here ...
[2008/07/26 11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *technically*, if the Chancellor appoints a new Treasurer, that person gets access to Rudeen ;)
[2008/07/26 11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In practice, well, that's not so easy.
[2008/07/26 11:39] You: ONE is whether a key asset holding bot like Rudeen needs to have some CDS procedures around it
[2008/07/26 11:39] You: but the OTher
[2008/07/26 11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* like we have for the Content Archivist....
[2008/07/26 11:39] You: is whether the RIGHT arrangement with bots & SL tools would completely supplant any need for a corporate thingie
[2008/07/26 11:40] Delia Lake: although the amounts are miniscule compared to the CDS holdings, the same procedure should probably be followed for MoCA and MoCAso Oh
[2008/07/26 11:40] You: so let me put it to you like this
[2008/07/26 11:40] You: let's ASSUME that Rudeen and MoCAso and Guilda et etc
[2008/07/26 11:40] You: all have, or can have, adeuqate backup access
[2008/07/26 11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
[2008/07/26 11:41] You: so, if there's a death or etc we CAn "get at all our stuff"
[2008/07/26 11:41] Sudane Erato: yes
[2008/07/26 11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2008/07/26 11:41] Delia Lake: yes
[2008/07/26 11:41] You: if so then .... do we still need a company or corporation as well?
[2008/07/26 11:41] Rose Springvale: and that it kept OUT of the political agenda
[2008/07/26 11:41] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:41] Sudane Erato: exactly
[2008/07/26 11:41] Rose Springvale: from my point of view, there are only three reasons to incorporate
[2008/07/26 11:41] Rose Springvale: and this is the same for real life and second life
[2008/07/26 11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: one is cheaper tier for not-for-profits ;)
[2008/07/26 11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: second, is limited liability?...
[2008/07/26 11:42] Rose Springvale: liability, money, and perpetual survival
[2008/07/26 11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2008/07/26 11:42] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now list what we get in return ;)
[2008/07/26 11:43] Rose Springvale: full employment for lawyers and accountants
[2008/07/26 11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bureaucracy, extra costs
[2008/07/26 11:43] Sudane Erato: lol
[2008/07/26 11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL yes
[2008/07/26 11:43] Rose Springvale: support of the fledgling banking system
[2008/07/26 11:43] Rose Springvale: i know our fees are important to them!
[2008/07/26 11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
[2008/07/26 11:43] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:43] Rose Springvale: and the ability to sell land cheaper
[2008/07/26 11:43] Rose Springvale: and charge less tier
[2008/07/26 11:43] Sudane Erato: yes
[2008/07/26 11:44] Sudane Erato: tier being the more significant of the 2
[2008/07/26 11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees
[2008/07/26 11:44] Rose Springvale: but at my hourly rates... heheh
[2008/07/26 11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL ROse!
[2008/07/26 11:44] Sudane Erato: lol
[2008/07/26 11:44] Rose Springvale: i'm joking of course
[2008/07/26 11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, so-so
[2008/07/26 11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I actually think it's worth listing the costs
[2008/07/26 11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and see if it's worth the reduced price
[2008/07/26 11:45] You: hnm
[2008/07/26 11:45] Rose Springvale: but we are moving toward an economy where we don't assume eveyrone gives it away
[2008/07/26 11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, mmmh, we just gave an honest try at listing those back in March 2005
[2008/07/26 11:45] You: we may not be done with the list of reasons yte, as well
[2008/07/26 11:45] You: is there a pointer to the 2005 list?
[2008/07/26 11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and, well, the conclusion back then is that incorporation, even as a non-profit, far outweighted the benefits  and at that time, LL did not sell islands at a reduced price!
[2008/07/26 11:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh I might have some old emails...
[2008/07/26 11:46] Rose Springvale: you must mean not incorporating
[2008/07/26 11:46] Sudane Erato: wasn't the discussion in the forum?
[2008/07/26 11:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: on the old forums perhaps... the ones that LL closed down :(
[2008/07/26 11:46] Sudane Erato: yes
[2008/07/26 11:46] Rose Springvale: Jamie, what do you think about running a flag to LL about incorporating under our own sovereignty?
[2008/07/26 11:46] Sudane Erato: we have them... don't we?
[2008/07/26 11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Rose
[2008/07/26 11:47] Rose Springvale: i'm serious
[2008/07/26 11:47] You: couple of threads here
[2008/07/26 11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sudane, no :( Torle was supposed to get us a copy, but he never managed that
[2008/07/26 11:47] You: -- old list - fine, if it;s easy to find material thx
[2008/07/26 11:47] Sudane Erato: oh... Gwyn, I have read them
[2008/07/26 11:47] Sudane Erato: Sleazy got them
[2008/07/26 11:47] You: -- running a line to Linden - i'd say premature
[2008/07/26 11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rose, the problem is... Neufreistadt had a Linden 'sponsor', Haney Linden
[2008/07/26 11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who doesn+t work with them any more
[2008/07/26 11:48] Rose Springvale: don't understand the concept of sponsors.. but...
[2008/07/26 11:48] You: :) FIC
[2008/07/26 11:48] Rose Springvale: this is the kind of breaking ground stuff i think they migh tlike
[2008/07/26 11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hardly believe that anybody there would be interested in the idea  except perhaps for Robin, but even Robin won't press the issue to hard :D
[2008/07/26 11:48] Sudane Erato: interesting Rose
[2008/07/26 11:48] You: Rose, if we go to them before we have a solid plan, it's a dance card to chaos
[2008/07/26 11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Jamie
[2008/07/26 11:48] Rose Springvale: not suggesting we go without a solid plan!
[2008/07/26 11:48] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although, yes, I guess that if we place the focus on "good PR....
[2008/07/26 11:49] You: let's see first if he can coalesce :D
[2008/07/26 11:49] You: *we
[2008/07/26 11:49] Delia Lake: i think that's an interesting idea, rose
[2008/07/26 11:49] Rose Springvale: thanks. i think it has some potential, but i'll be a good commission member and coalesce :)
[2008/07/26 11:50] Cindy Ecksol is wondering what "sovereignty" means in this context
[2008/07/26 11:50] Sudane Erato: could take 10 years :)
[2008/07/26 11:50] Rose Springvale: you aren't going anywhere :)
[2008/07/26 11:50] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well... Yoge once sent me a lot of links to micronations
[2008/07/26 11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They were fascinating reading material!
[2008/07/26 11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Specially because many are way less developed than the CDS.
[2008/07/26 11:51] Delia Lake: LLhas moved to open source, some companies are running private SL behind firewalls, and this is another way of working with organizations on the sl platform
[2008/07/26 11:51] You: hm :)
[2008/07/26 11:51] You: are we still talking about how to organize CDS?
[2008/07/26 11:51] Rose Springvale: we are coalescing
[2008/07/26 11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, jamie.
[2008/07/26 11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Rose  you DO like that word!!!
[2008/07/26 11:52] Rose Springvale: what does it mean? lol. its one of those words :)
[2008/07/26 11:52] Sudane Erato: its a flower power word... updated :))
[2008/07/26 11:52] Rose Springvale: there
[2008/07/26 11:53] You: ...
[2008/07/26 11:53] Rose Springvale: one major issue with using real world law to apply to a sl venture
[2008/07/26 11:53] You: ...
[2008/07/26 11:53] Rose Springvale: is that we actually increase the exposure of the people behind the avi
[2008/07/26 11:53] You: We've noted that one big driver for 'let's incorporate' is "better internal controls, succession planning, surviving a person leaving". And some feel that all that can be done "within SL" regardless of RL corporate organization.
[2008/07/26 11:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just "some"? Mmmh.
[2008/07/26 11:54] You: :) Rose is going where I wanted to go next
[2008/07/26 11:54] You: there's a second separate issue
[2008/07/26 11:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rose, yes. My other issue is about appliable jurisdiction.
[2008/07/26 11:54] You: and that's a third
[2008/07/26 11:54] You: :)
[2008/07/26 11:54] Rose Springvale: gwynie, we can do any jurisdiction.. its a small world now
[2008/07/26 11:54] You: let me see if I can focus us for just a sec on the liaibilities issue
[2008/07/26 11:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Say I want to open a Cabaret in the CDS; if we're a non-profit incorporated in Holland, we might even get State funds for that ;)
[2008/07/26 11:54] Rose Springvale: type faster jp :)
[2008/07/26 11:54] You: gywn
[2008/07/26 11:55] Delia Lake muses that coalese is what her dog's hair does in the corners of her room...
[2008/07/26 11:55] You: :) that's a 'rathole' debate point, can we hold it?
[2008/07/26 11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If it's incorporated in Tenessee or Utah...
[2008/07/26 11:55] Sudane Erato: but jurisdiction gets to the very identity of what CDS is!
[2008/07/26 11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
[2008/07/26 11:55] You: well we ned to work on it - just not going to make headway on it in the short time remainint today :)
[2008/07/26 11:55] Sudane Erato: is not a US org, or a Dutch org
[2008/07/26 11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[2008/07/26 11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's why I always was against "losing our sovereignity",
[2008/07/26 11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: although I'd compromise on having a private organisation (and not a person) managing sims and treasury.
[2008/07/26 11:56] You: yup - a real issue there - look hgow bizarre the results are from internatiohnnal SL being distended constantly by US law due to US-LL
[2008/07/26 11:56] Sudane Erato: yes
[2008/07/26 11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Eg. Rudeen Edo being an avatar of the "Institute for CDS Asset Management"
[2008/07/26 11:56] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:56] Rose Springvale: oh my
[2008/07/26 11:57] You: just tell me they won;t call it a 'faculty' (wrinkles nose)
[2008/07/26 11:57] Rose Springvale: ICDSAM....
[2008/07/26 11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
[2008/07/26 11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Jamie
[2008/07/26 11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the name is irrelevant...
[2008/07/26 11:57] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 11:57] You: ahem - liaibility
[2008/07/26 11:57] You: :() let me gget one more point on the table for today
[2008/07/26 11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... what is important is that the organisation just has a mission: managing sims and L$ on behalf of teh CDS;
[2008/07/26 11:57] You: Let's say Jamie is Su's secret alt owner of Rudeen Edo's password
[2008/07/26 11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and it's doubly-incorporated: its (RL) charter would be validated through a vote in the CDS
[2008/07/26 11:58] You: :) let's say Jamie RIPS IT OFF
[2008/07/26 11:58] You: :)
[2008/07/26 11:58] Rose Springvale: the cad!
[2008/07/26 11:58] You: you following here?
[2008/07/26 11:58] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 11:58] Rose Springvale: yes, go on
[2008/07/26 11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, go on.
[2008/07/26 11:58] You: if I am just Some Sl Thingie
[2008/07/26 11:58] You: well, shrug CDS can disown me
[2008/07/26 11:58] You: report me to Lindens
[2008/07/26 11:58] Sudane Erato: no recourse
[2008/07/26 11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh not at all
[2008/07/26 11:58] You: *try* and sue me like Stroker did in RL
[2008/07/26 11:58] Rose Springvale: who may look at the ticket in four of five years
[2008/07/26 11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly
[2008/07/26 11:59] You: but the lawsuit woudl be, well, suboptimal
[2008/07/26 11:59] You: now on the other hands
[2008/07/26 11:59] Rose Springvale: for these amounts of money... no lawyer would take it
[2008/07/26 11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, while if it were an organisation, you could file a lawsuit quickly and effectively? :)
[2008/07/26 11:59] You: if Jamie the Board Member of the CDS WHatever Institute, Inc.
[2008/07/26 11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh. Is that desirable?
[2008/07/26 11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, swift lawsuits?
[2008/07/26 11:59] You: (or Trust or SA or whateverZ)
[2008/07/26 11:59] Rose Springvale: go on jamie, hush a minute gwyn :)
[2008/07/26 11:59] You: rips you off :D well, you;re gonna get a lot better lawsuit
[2008/07/26 12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry !
[2008/07/26 12:00] Sudane Erato: Gwyn... the issue is any recourse at all
[2008/07/26 12:00] Rose Springvale: but why jamie?
[2008/07/26 12:00] You: right
[2008/07/26 12:00] Rose Springvale: its the same money, the same paperwork ... deeper pocket? which means?
[2008/07/26 12:00] Rose Springvale: bonding?
[2008/07/26 12:00] Rose Springvale: member liabilty?
[2008/07/26 12:00] Jamie Palisades smiles - you don;t thikn so, Rose? Would you rather get me for defalcation on some vague hard to prove nonwritten duty? or fiduciary selfdealing?
[2008/07/26 12:01] Rose Springvale: chances are if you absconded
[2008/07/26 12:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, ok, a question from the legal-handicapped.... why is it easier to file a lawsuit against an organisation, compared to an individual?
[2008/07/26 12:01] Rose Springvale: you are uncollectible
[2008/07/26 12:01] Rose Springvale: disputes that it is, but the issue being where does recovery come from
[2008/07/26 12:01] You: oh I dunno
[2008/07/26 12:01] You: Stroker's defendant was outed and settled
[2008/07/26 12:01] Rose Springvale: maybe a check and balance if there is a dual signature on withdrawal.
[2008/07/26 12:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I can understand the reverse issue: limited liability. Eg. right now we could sue Sudane for a zillion dollars if we wished; if Sudane were the head of the Asset Institute, we couldn'+t :) )
[2008/07/26 12:02] Rose Springvale: stroker was an ip claim yes?
[2008/07/26 12:02] You: :) must have felt some risk
[2008/07/26 12:02] Rose Springvale: we are talking about theft here
[2008/07/26 12:02] You: yup
[2008/07/26 12:02] Rose Springvale: different cause of action
[2008/07/26 12:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... what you mean is, we need to publish a contract between the EO and the CDS.
[2008/07/26 12:02] Rose Springvale: but
[2008/07/26 12:02] Rose Springvale: the point is
[2008/07/26 12:02] Rose Springvale: we WOULD be suing a RL person
[2008/07/26 12:02] Rose Springvale: and technically
[2008/07/26 12:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2008/07/26 12:03] You: :) Gwyn - sharpening up the nature of that relation IS the neta-issue, yes
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: if i were filing
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: i'd sue everyone on the board
[2008/07/26 12:03] You: sure :)
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: and the board
[2008/07/26 12:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah!\
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: and then
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: :)
[2008/07/26 12:03] You: that's why god made D&O coverage
[2008/07/26 12:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: what's that?...
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: which is my next point
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: and VERY expensive
[2008/07/26 12:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I mean D&O; "god" is familiar :) )
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: for ventures like this.. if you can get it
[2008/07/26 12:03] You: and that's why corporatiions are a non-zero cost
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: directors and officers liabiilyt coverage
[2008/07/26 12:03] Rose Springvale: insurance
[2008/07/26 12:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhh ok
[2008/07/26 12:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh! you can get insured against lawsuits!
[2008/07/26 12:04] Rose Springvale: um
[2008/07/26 12:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[2008/07/26 12:04] Rose Springvale: that's what all insurance is isn't it??
[2008/07/26 12:04] Sudane Erato: :)
[2008/07/26 12:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe well
[2008/07/26 12:04] You: might make membership on the Board of Suckers - re Directors - er - RA a little tougher, eh?
[2008/07/26 12:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, under US law ;)
[2008/07/26 12:04] Rose Springvale: hehe
[2008/07/26 12:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah Jamie
[2008/07/26 12:04] Sudane Erato: lol
[2008/07/26 12:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: More the better reason for separating the two things...
[2008/07/26 12:05] You: we ain;t Lloyds ...
[2008/07/26 12:06] You: we are technically past time as announced. Folks, do you thi8nk that a written recap of this, amendment dsto the outline, and another go in two weeks are good next steps?
[2008/07/26 12:06] Sudane Erato: sure
[2008/07/26 12:06] Rose Springvale: maybe a summary and open to forum comment..t hen we can recap?
[2008/07/26 12:06] You: anything else for now?
[2008/07/26 12:06] Sudane Erato: I'll have to pass on Aug 9, but... no matter
[2008/07/26 12:07] You: yup - perfect
[2008/07/26 12:07] You: 2 or 3 weeks, whatever
[2008/07/26 12:07] Cindy Ecksol: I also cannto make the 9th
[2008/07/26 12:07] Rose Springvale: smile
[2008/07/26 12:07] You: rthis is goning to take a few meetings :)
[2008/07/26 12:07] Sudane Erato: yes :)
[2008/07/26 12:07] Rose Springvale: we should shut down for August and pretend we are europe
[2008/07/26 12:07] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 12:07] Sudane Erato: European jurisdiction :)
[2008/07/26 12:08] Sudane Erato: ty all :)
[2008/07/26 12:08] Rose Springvale: sudane
[2008/07/26 12:08] Sudane Erato: bye now
[2008/07/26 12:08] You: er - go to Santorini?
[2008/07/26 12:08] Rose Springvale: just for the record...
[2008/07/26 12:09] Rose Springvale: i think we are lucky to have you in all your capacities
[2008/07/26 12:09] Sudane Erato: ty
[2008/07/26 12:09] Rose Springvale: :)
[2008/07/26 12:09] You: thanks everyone :) we will try for the 16th - and yes Rose, hear hear
[2008/07/26 12:09] Sudane Erato: its been my pleasure...
[2008/07/26 12:09] Rose Springvale: well, as i said
[2008/07/26 12:09] Rose Springvale: you are not going anywhere lol
[2008/07/26 12:09] Brian Livingston: hehe
[2008/07/26 12:10] Sudane Erato: hehe... but I am getting "on in years"... can't last forever :))
[2008/07/26 12:10] Rose Springvale: ha!
[2008/07/26 12:10] Sudane Erato: hehe
[2008/07/26 12:10] Sudane Erato: word to the wise :)
[2008/07/26 12:10] Rose Springvale: you get younger every year!
[2008/07/26 12:10] Delia Lake: everyone can head for the beach at the Center for Water Studies...surf, swim, scuba, boat...for an inworld vacation
[2008/07/26 12:10] Sudane Erato: yep :)
[2008/07/26 12:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, I had to get some medication (so I'll be now even sillier than usual hehe)
[2008/07/26 12:10] Sudane Erato: yes Delia! :)
[2008/07/26 12:10] Sudane Erato: anyway... bye all
[2008/07/26 12:11] Rose Springvale: bye sudane!
[2008/07/26 12:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn read back
[2008/07/26 12:11] You: night all :)
[2008/07/26 12:11] Brian Livingston: Bye all :)
[2008/07/26 12:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok.... mmmh bye? :) hehe
[2008/07/26 12:11] Rose Springvale: thanks jamie
[end]