Transcript -SC meeting - 13 August 2008

[Claude Desmoulins]

Meeting on 2008-08-13
Those present:
Claude Desmoulins is in the chair.
Dnate Mars has indicated consent to be recorded.
MT Lundquist: hello rose
Claude Desmoulins: 2 minutes...
Rose Springvale: Hi MT, Claude, Dante, cloud cindy
Rose Springvale: cloudy dnate too
Cindy Ecksol: hey, rose!
Cindy Ecksol: hmmm....we need more furniture....
Rose Springvale: smile
Dnate Mars: Hi
Claude Desmoulins: Please touch the recorder.
Cindy Ecksol has indicated consent to be recorded.
MT Lundquist has indicated consent to be recorded.
Claude Desmoulins: and let's begin.
Rose Springvale: lol
Claude Desmoulins: Can we look at the petition procedures first?
Claude Desmoulins: My goal is to take about 15 minutes per agenda item.
Cindy Ecksol: how about a link to the whole agenda?
Cindy Ecksol: so that everyone can follow along
Claude Desmoulins: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2040
Cindy Ecksol: as for jumping into petition procedures, would you mind if we talked about procedures in general first?
Claude Desmoulins: Petitions and records are supposed to be indented subsections of procedures.
Claude Desmoulins: Sure
Cindy Ecksol: that was actually my intent rather than getting into specifics
Cindy Ecksol: I think rose's commentson the forum were right on target.
Cindy Ecksol: the SC really doesn't have well-defined procedures, and if they ARE defined, it's likely that they're not easy to find
Cindy Ecksol: what I'd like to propose is that we make a list of the key procedures that OUGHT to be defined, document the ones that are already in place, and then create clear procedures for those we don't know yet
Claude Desmoulins: At the same time I think it's important to have a process that is navigable by the average citizen.
Cindy Ecksol: the resulting document ought to be easily accessible on the portal
Cindy Ecksol: precisely claude...
Claude Desmoulins: Does anyone remember Ash's Judiciary procedures?
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Rose Springvale giggles
Cindy Ecksol: we do NOT want to go there, do we?
Claude Desmoulins: I see us as doing three things...
Claude Desmoulins: 1. Reviewing RA acts for "constitionality"
Claude Desmoulins: 2. Reviewing claims that a person or entity has violated law, constitution, or procedure.
Claude Desmoulins: 3. ADR, which is in the constitution but which to my knowledge has never actually happened here.
Claude Desmoulins: Anything else?
Cindy Ecksol: adr?
Claude Desmoulins: Alternative Dispute Resolution.
Cindy Ecksol: ah, ok....
Cindy Ecksol: adr is kind of a whole other subject I think....
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, be we ought to have a procedure for it at some point.
Cindy Ecksol: but the first two are the "meat and potatoes" that we need to do on a regular basis
Claude Desmoulins: In case someone asks us to do it
Cindy Ecksol: regarding ADR, I believe that Delia knows a whole lot about that, so perhaps we could get her involved.
Rose Springvale raises hand
Claude Desmoulins: I tossed up something on the forums as a start pont and Rose made some good comments.
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, Rose?
Rose Springvale: i know i'm out of order, so i apologize. There are a lot of us who know a lot about ADR... and in fact Soro, new citizen in CN, has set up a mediation services office. but you need to remember that A
Rose Springvale: A is for Alternative.
Rose Springvale: you are what the alternative would be from in this instance
Rose Springvale: /done
Claude Desmoulins: The notion was that two entities not normally subject to SC jurisdiction could agree to let the SC do ADR. It sounds like there are alternatives to that even here in CSD.
Claude Desmoulins: *CDS
Claude Desmoulins: So that's another reason we can delve into that later.
Cindy Ecksol: ah, yes, that would fit the definition....but I don't see that as a central function
Claude Desmoulins: Agreed.
Claude Desmoulins: Thoughts, Dnate?
Cindy Ecksol thinks dnate is multitasking
Dnate Mars: I am in agreement with everything so for
Claude Desmoulins: So what about functions 1 and 2?
Dnate Mars: what about them?
Cindy Ecksol: I'd like us to brainstorm a list of procedures that need to be in place, then priortize them, research them and document as necessary
Claude Desmoulins: OK.
Claude Desmoulins: Petition/Challenge
Cindy Ecksol: just a small example.
Claude Desmoulins: Hearing
Dnate Mars: I think we need to, we need to set it up so that everyone know exactly what to expect
Cindy Ecksol: yes, exactly
Cindy Ecksol: Nomination to SC
Cindy Ecksol: Election to SC
Claude Desmoulins: Nomination /election exists.
Rose Springvale: hi Delia
Cindy Ecksol: yes....but not well-documented.
Delia Lake: hello everyone
Delia Lake: thx
Cindy Ecksol: for example, it's not clear how someone can be nomiinated to SC other than by the Dean
Claude Desmoulins: Nomination happens in one of two ways:
Cindy Ecksol: and it's not clear that approval by RA is required...
Claude Desmoulins: 1. SC member, 2. by petition.
Claude Desmoulins: Wasn't there a five citizen petition put in place?
Cindy Ecksol: Claude, my point is that the petition thing is not document
Cindy Ecksol: ed
Cindy Ecksol: it's "oral law"
Claude Desmoulins: Other than being buried in a forum posting/transcript.
Cindy Ecksol: exactly
Cindy Ecksol: ditto for approval of nominations by the SC
Cindy Ecksol: sorry...RA
Claude Desmoulins: That also brings up the issue of precedent.
Cindy Ecksol: exactly.
Claude Desmoulins: Some of that is in the Code
Cindy Ecksol: some of it in in the code....but not all!
Claude Desmoulins: RA has thirty days to act on a nomination or it gets auto approved, for example
Cindy Ecksol: for instance it says in the code that if a nomination isn't approved within 30 days, then it's automatic
Claude Desmoulins: NL 4- 10 I think
Cindy Ecksol: but elsewhere it says that the SC approves nominees
Claude Desmoulins: Both have to happen.
Cindy Ecksol: and I did not find anything that says that the RA approves nominations
Cindy Ecksol: just the 30 day limit
Claude Desmoulins: I'm pretty sure it's in the constitution
Cindy Ecksol: nope
Cindy Ecksol: I thought the same, but searched in vain
Cindy Ecksol: in any case, this is jus tone instance of undocumented process
Claude Desmoulins: Article I section 7
Claude Desmoulins: Powers of RA
Cindy Ecksol: we have dozens, and the lack affects our ability to administer the code fairly
Claude Desmoulins: True.
Claude Desmoulins: Here's a question I want to throw out.
Cindy Ecksol: that impacts everything from the willingness to do commerce here to the attractiveness of the CDS to new residents
Claude Desmoulins: We operate on a common law- precedent driven system.
Claude Desmoulins: Almost all those precedents , since the SC has not tended to write decisions, are buried in transcripts (for example - that faction certification happens once per term)
Claude Desmoulins: How much authority do we have (current SC) to create a clearer guide to the existing precedent.
Claude Desmoulins: In trying to summarize it do we inevitably alter it (a la Heisenberg)?
Cindy Ecksol: I think we have all the authority that we need to pull all of that stuff out of the forums and create a single document
Cindy Ecksol: no, we don't alter it....everything we document will point back to the original reference
Rose Springvale smiles
Claude Desmoulins: Can we move nitty gritty discussion of these into the SC forum?
Cindy Ecksol: I suspect that we will find things that the SC has been doing that are NOT what the original reference implied
Cindy Ecksol: yes, I think we should.
Claude Desmoulins: Dnate, OK w/ you?
Dnate Mars: once we get what was down written, we can then as teh SC approve the new document and that will be the one we go off of
Cindy Ecksol: I would be willing to "host" a brainstorming session to identify the processes.
Claude Desmoulins: We have a pretty good start of a list here today.
Cindy Ecksol: just a specific thread on the forum that people can respond to
Dnate Mars: We should try and get input form all members past and present
Cindy Ecksol: everyone has particular processes that annoy them so it will be easy to cover all the bases that way
Claude Desmoulins: BTW, if all our visitors could please remember to touch the recorder.
Delia Lake has indicated consent to be recorded.
Cindy Ecksol: yes, would be a good idea to get input from everyone
Claude Desmoulins: I guess this moves us to SC nominations.
Cindy Ecksol: ok...
Claude Desmoulins: The floor is open to the SC.
Cindy Ecksol: I would like to make a nomination, but unfortunately she has not been in-world much since our last meeting so I haven't had a chance to ask her if she's willing
Dnate Mars: we still have a open nomination from last week
Cindy Ecksol: ah, right!
Claude Desmoulins: Last week?
Cindy Ecksol: several weeks ago...
Claude Desmoulins: Let's address that one then.
Dnate Mars: last meeting
Claude Desmoulins: I believe the citizen in question is present.
Claude Desmoulins: Ehy don't SC members go first.
Claude Desmoulins: *Why
Cindy Ecksol: ?
Cindy Ecksol: how about being a bit more clear on what we're doing here, Claude?
Claude Desmoulins: Dnate has nominated MT.
Claude Desmoulins: Traditionally, before going to the RA, the nomination requires a simple majority approval from the SC.
Cindy Ecksol: so....how about calling for a vote....
Cindy Ecksol: whoops!
Cindy Ecksol: just lost dnate....
Claude Desmoulins: Let's give him a minute or two to see if he can get back in.
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Claude Desmoulins: Is there any discussion.
Claude Desmoulins: Is ther any discussion (repeated for Dnate)?
Rose Springvale smiles again
Rose Springvale: can i speak?
Claude Desmoulins: Yes
Rose Springvale: Thanks. I just want to say that i think MT would be a good addition to your group.
MT Lundquist:
Claude Desmoulins: I have to admit to a reservation that is still in my mind.
Rose Springvale: I think he will bring issues to light you all may not see.
Rose Springvale: as a newer citizen and a bit of rabble rouser
MT Lundquist:
Claude Desmoulins: From seeing this group in action for some years now, I think there are three things that the SC needs out of its members.
Rose Springvale: when you talk about documenting yoru precedent...
Rose Springvale: oh, okay
Claude Desmoulins: A diversity of opinion.
Claude Desmoulins: MT brings that.
Claude Desmoulins: An ability and willingness to think through things.
Claude Desmoulins: MT certainly brings that.
Claude Desmoulins: While I didn't agree with some of his recent reasoning, it was clear.
Claude Desmoulins: The thing that I also think is important and about which I worry a bit is what I'd call level headedness.
Claude Desmoulins: When people come here they are usually fairly worked up.
Rose Springvale: (a good reason for notice and hearing to have some time between each other btw)
Claude Desmoulins: On multiple occasions I have seen this body berated by those who disagreed with its decisions , on occasion very bluntly.
Claude Desmoulins: Also once or twice I've seen members of this SC "rise to the bait" and get into pointed arguments during meetings, going so far as to, IMHO lose their cool.
Claude Desmoulins: When that happens the ability of the SC to perform its job of reasoning through the messes large and small that our system's ambiguities sometimes create , I believe is severly hampered.
Cindy Ecksol thinks that's something that human beings tend to do....
Rose Springvale: clear process can help that, or at least does in rl
Cindy Ecksol: yes, I agree rose
Claude Desmoulins: Yes, but in part, the credibility of the instituion requires that things stay somewhay detached, (meaning not becoming personal)
Cindy Ecksol: and I think that having felt that he was on the short end of the stick procedures-wise, it would be good to have MT on SC to help define the procedures more clearly
Cindy Ecksol: the timing is good.....
Rose Springvale: why don't you ask him?
MT Lundquist: hi love
ThePrincess Parisi: hi
Claude Desmoulins: If petitioners believe, because of pointed words, that the SC is fulfilling someone's personal agenda, that's a bad thing. You do make a good point about MT having been on the other side of things.
Claude Desmoulins: MT, do you have anything to say?
MT Lundquist: yes
MT Lundquist: i do believe i have been exercising a different function in my previous role as a member of the RA
MT Lundquist: as a politician its important to be passionate about things
MT Lundquist: I also dont believe being passionate necesarily clouds reason
MT Lundquist: however i do understand that the SC operates on different principles
MT Lundquist: as you've just highlighted claude
MT Lundquist: In RL i'm a senior manager in an IT organisation that is part of a larger organisation of 18000 people
MT Lundquist: i understand the need to deal with situations in different ways
MT Lundquist: depending on the context
Claude Desmoulins: Thank you MT
Claude Desmoulins: Any other discussion?
MT Lundquist: the organistaion i work for is local government
MT Lundquist: so i'm used to working with staff citizens , mangers and politicians
ThePrincess Parisi: and interpreting law
ThePrincess Parisi: say that
ThePrincess Parisi: oops.. excuse me please
Claude Desmoulins: Hearing no firther discussion, shall we vote?
Claude Desmoulins: *further
Dnate Mars: I am ready
MT Lundquist: and yes as prin says interpreting law
Cindy Ecksol: me too
MT Lundquist: i create contracts very often
Claude Desmoulins: All in favor?
Dnate Mars: aye
Cindy Ecksol: aye
Claude Desmoulins: aye
Claude Desmoulins: Now Cindy,
Cindy Ecksol: well, as I said, I'd like to nominate Naftali Torok, but have not had a chance to talk it over with her
Cindy Ecksol: she's on tour in RL
MT Lundquist: ty
ThePrincess Parisi: may i speak?
Rose Springvale: congratulations MT
Claude Desmoulins: Cindy, are you finished ?
Cindy Ecksol: sec...
Delia Lake: yes, congratulations MT
Cindy Ecksol: also occurs to me to ask Delia since she's here if she might be interested
MT Lundquist: ty all
Cindy Ecksol: Delia?
Delia Lake: ty, but could i postpone for another term?
Rose Springvale: excuse me, i've got a meeting to prepare...
ThePrincess Parisi: bye rose
Delia Lake: i have a very busy rl autumn of travel and presentations
Delia Lake: and i might not be able to make meetings regularly
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Claude Desmoulins: Keep in mind that, barring electoral emergency, we meet 1/month
Claude Desmoulins: You're going to have to help me out here.
Dnate Mars: It is understandable to not want to do it yet as well
Claude Desmoulins: I have to admit not knowing Naftali well at all.
Delia Lake: yes, and i have co-authored a rl book that has just come out and we are getting requests for talks
ThePrincess Parisi: i know someone who is interested and has time
Claude Desmoulins is impressed:)
Claude Desmoulins: Another issue is trying to keep the SC at an odd number so we aviod ties.
Claude Desmoulins: *avoid ties
Cindy Ecksol: yes, that would be good.
ThePrincess Parisi: may i speak ?
Claude Desmoulins: No procedure for that, after all
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Claude Desmoulins: Just a moment.
ThePrincess Parisi: k
Claude Desmoulins: Can we stay on the Torok nomination for a moment.
Claude Desmoulins: Dnate, how well do you know Naftali?
Dnate Mars: Not very well
ThePrincess Parisi: cindy nominated her and didnt ask her, but feam is very intersted and she wont nominate fem without talking to her
ThePrincess Parisi: im confusted
Dnate Mars: TP, hold on one minute please
ThePrincess Parisi: i nominate feminist expedition ... well we have five signatures
Claude Desmoulins: Cindy, you'll have to make whatever case there is to be made. I also wonder if we oughtn't vote on a nomination until we have a clear expression of willingness from the nominee.
Cindy Ecksol: I have NOT nominated her....just said that I want to after I've spoken to her
Cindy Ecksol: exactly claude....
ThePrincess Parisi: sorry i misunderstood
Dnate Mars: Yes, I would like to talk with anyone before voting
ThePrincess Parisi: i want to get on record the self selection of members
ThePrincess Parisi: what a farce
ThePrincess Parisi: it should be an unbiased group no who YOU approve of
Claude Desmoulins: and TP, by all means please submit the petition on notecard, or perhaps because of needing signatures, some sort of forwarded email would work better.
ThePrincess Parisi: can you imagine if the supremem court choses its own memebers
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Cindy Ecksol: yes, it would be a much better place!!!
ThePrincess Parisi: ok i will submit that nomination
ThePrincess Parisi: are you kidding cindy? the judges decide who thinks like they do
ThePrincess Parisi: what a joke
Dnate Mars: TP, remember, there are 2 ways to get nominated to teh SC
ThePrincess Parisi: thank you i know
Claude Desmoulins: Since we have no other actual nominations, shall we adjourn?
Delia Lake sometimes thinks that the current US SC has been choosing it's new members.....
Dnate Mars: I think so
Cindy Ecksol: great, we can take up Fem's nomination when we meet again.
ThePrincess Parisi: ok yay!
Claude Desmoulins: Please keep in mind that next month's regularly scheduled meeting will include the Dean election.
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
ThePrincess Parisi: well done MT
Dnate Mars: Ok
Cindy Ecksol: before or after we add more members?
MT Lundquist: is there an opportunity to review meeting times
Claude Desmoulins: We are adjourned then.
The meeting closed at 8:59 Linden time.