Fourth Electoral Commission Meeting, Saturday Sep 6, 7 AM?

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

Hello all,

Sadly, this week I have a RL commitment at 9 AM so I cannot hold the 4th Electoral Commission Meeting at that time. Can we do it two hours earlier, at 7 AM instead? I know it's awesomely early for many of you and I do sincerely apologise for that.

The agenda for today would be:

Discussion: How should the role of the Leader of the Representative Assembly be assigned? (elected by the public; elected by the RA?) What powers should the LRA have? How to avoid overlap with the Chancellor, if both are publicly elected?

If there is not an adequate number of people available to provide a reasonable discussion, I'll postpone it to the next Saturday (the 13th) at the usual time, e.g. 9 AM. Meeting place is, as usual, the Praetorium in Colonia Nova.

Sorry for the short notice!

- Gwyn

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

CHANGED AGAIN!

Sorry about re-changing the change! Half an hour ago, I was informed that my own RL appointment at 9 AM *was* cancelled after all.

So I can meet you all at NINE AM SLT as agreed last week

See you there, and I'm so sorry for the multiple changes!

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway guys,
[9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks so much for coming
[9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should just tell you in advance,
[9:08] Feminist Expedition:
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that the transcript of this meeting is going to be posted publicly on the forums
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So if you're not happy with it, I would kindly ask you to leave (or to remain silent lol )
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha! Jamie approaches
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[9:09] Patroklus Murakami: happy to be recorded, transcripted and quoted out of context
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at last, we get a disruptive opinion-maker!... without that, these sessions wouldn't be *interesting*
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (which is also the point hehe )
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Pat — I sincerely hope NOT to quote you OUT of context!!!
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn waits just a minute until Jamie manages to enter the room
[9:10] Jamie Palisades: HUllo all.
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There he is!
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: hi jamie
[9:10] Jamie Palisades: No need, but thx
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Jamie, Mr Chancellor, SIR!
[9:10] Jamie Palisades: You and your titles
[9:10] Patroklus Murakami: yo el presidente
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it would be nice to have Justice around too, since he's the current LA hehe
[9:11] Jamie Palisades: Personally I grew up in a democracy with no king
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Jamie
[9:11] Jamie Palisades: Might influence me
[9:11] Jamie Palisades: No central committee either
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, me too, but only because I was born 59 years too late ... and I think we can still fix it!
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami finds monarch more attractive as he gets older....
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Slight background..
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: *monarchy
[9:11] Jamie Palisades: DIdn;t the Communists hold PT for a bit? No king? Not even a Beloved Leader?
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Pat, although she's been a monarchist since she was 15
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes, Jamie
[9:12] Jamie Palisades: In SL, Gwyn? I;d always suspected it
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we were a Democratic Republic once too
[9:12] Jamie Palisades: Well let's see... for a moranchist, is a meeting like this lese majeste?
[9:12] Jamie Palisades: And if someone tries to remove a chancellor, wouldn;t that individual be entitled to execute them afterwards?
[9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: in fact, the fun bit is that the Portuguese still commemorate the Communist Revolution of April 1974, but they totally forget the much more important Counter-Revolution of 1975, which was what made it into a demcoracy... hehe
[9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaaanyway
[9:13] Jamie Palisades: Ahh Monarchies
[9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: aaw, we only do that to kings in our country. and we got over that soon enough
[9:13] Jamie Palisades: yES, oLIVER
[9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: you're lucky Moon's not here, Jamie, she'd be singing the "Oliver Cromwell" song by the Monty Python...
[9:14] Jamie Palisades: Hi Jon, Femi, AkaB I am keeping Gwyn from starting
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: hi jon
[9:14] Jamie Palisades:
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha! yes
[9:14] Jon Seattle: Hi
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Jon
[9:14] AbaBrukh Aabye: hi Jamie - I noticed
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jon, you're just in time, Jamie might allow us to start now
[9:14] Jon Seattle: Hi FE, Aba, Gwyn, Pat, and Jamie
[9:14] Jon Seattle: lol
[9:14] AbaBrukh Aabye: hi Jon
[9:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway... background...
[9:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: going baaaaaaack in time
[9:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: there was a 'feeling' that the CDS should NOT have a "Head of State"
[9:15] Moon Adamant: hello all
[9:16] AbaBrukh Aabye: as one with an archaeological bent, that's the only rational way to go in time
[9:16] Jon Seattle hugs Moon
[9:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Moonie)
[9:16] Moon Adamant hugs Jon
[9:16] AbaBrukh Aabye: hi Moon
[9:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, we didn't have a Head of State (we officially don't have one today, either). Instead,
[9:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the leader of the faction who won the elections
[9:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: would have a fancy title of "Burgermeister"
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... which entitled them to open the Oktoberfest officially
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was its immense and huge power.
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For practical reasons,
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: this very same person also used to chair the meetings of the Representative Assembly (RA)
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since someone has to be the moderator.
[9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In some memorable occasions, "being the moderator" and "taking notes" was even delegated to other members of the RA... back then, people really didn't give much thought about it.
[9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The "Burgermeister" title was abandoned as we became a multi-themed community.
[9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now it's called "Leader of the Representative Assembly"
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It has a *few* powers.
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Namely,
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the power to set teh agenda.
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *the
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: AT the beginning this was seen as mostly an administrative role —
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... someone ought to get requests for bills to be discussed, put them together, and publish the agenda.
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We were naive
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Die-hard, cut-throat, dirty politicians turned that administrative role into a POWERFUL WEAPON against the opposition,
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: by scheming against the RA members and placing only SOME items on teh agenda
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: looks evil enough?
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good!
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Last term we also had a problem when replacing officially a LRA
[9:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Constitution, not viewing the role of the LRA as being very important, just says that it's the member of the RA who had the most votes on the previous election
[9:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What about if the LRA leaves the RA? (ie. quits, is ill, is kicked out of it)
[9:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we fixed the issue partially by allowing the RA members to elect a new one (temporarily or not)
[9:22] Jamie Palisades mutters --- it would be impossible to overstate the evil and immaturity of that approach but we'll get to that
[9:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The issue now is that the LRA "suddenly" became a Power Wielder.
[9:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It also apparently has powers "similar" to teh Chancellor,
[9:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: like the Chancellor (who is elected by the RA members), the LRA apparently also gets elected by the very same RA members.
[9:23] Patroklus Murakami: hmmm, i don't think that change was made, only mooted
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (at least in 'emergencies' )
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, well, let's say it happened.... temporarily...
[9:23] Patroklus Murakami: the LRA is still the candidate with the most votes
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes. On *this* term, that's what happened.
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Soro, welcome)
[9:23] Moon Adamant: surely that can be cosidered an useful way to deal with matter?
[9:23] Patroklus Murakami: yes, there was an 'ad hoc' solution to an LRA resigning mid-term (me)
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: /Hello
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the issue remains. If the current LRA quits (Justice wouldn't dare!) we'd have the same problem again
[9:24] Moon Adamant: i mean, if A can't go on being LRA, then B, who has most votes next, should in the spirit of our constitution, replace him?
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah Moon
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that would mean that in most cases, since we do a St League method,
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: yes moon, that's what our constn says
[9:24] Feminist Expedition: sorry... i don't understand how candidates get votes?
[9:24] AbaBrukh Aabye: /that requires keeping track of vote counts
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that place would go to the opposition
[9:24] Feminist Expedition: thought just the factions get votes?
[9:24] Jamie Palisades: Are we in free for all, Ms chair?
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, jamie
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if people digress too much, I'll have them kicked out, don't worry
[9:25] Jamie Palisades smiles and waits his turn - several others have spoken
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or use the dreaded Soapbox
[9:25] Moon Adamant: Fem, there can be made an absolute ranking of the candidates independently of factions
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: shall we clarify how the LRA is selected now, since there's confusion?
[9:25] Jon Seattle: FE, in effect we hold two elections. One ranks factions, and then within each faction, the other election ranks canddiates.
[9:25] Feminist Expedition: k, thx... i haven't seen that as a voter...
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: and how RA members are elected?
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: as jon said, we rank factions first
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's have Pat's explanation first, and Jamie's comments next
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: the LRA is the candiate from the faction that got the most votes with the highest personal vote count
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: so, if faction A 'wins' the election with three candidates
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: it's the one with the highest personal vote who becomes LRA
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami: so, if they resign, the LRA position would go to the next candidate from that faction
[9:27] Moon Adamant: not necessarily
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami: problem is, what happens when all of those faction members resign, like last term?
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami: why not moon?
[9:28] Moon Adamant: because you can have a choice here
[9:28] Moon Adamant: and that is something that can be discussed
[9:28] Moon Adamant: what does it matter most- we are talking a personal role here -
[9:28] Moon Adamant: the replacement from the same party
[9:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and a *political* role now — not an administrative role any more)
[9:29] Moon Adamant: 0or the second candidate to be seated, regardless of factions?
[9:29] Patroklus Murakami: moon, that wouldn't work with our current electoral system
[9:29] Patroklus Murakami: we elect factions first, then candidates
[9:29] Moon Adamant: yes, but we're reviewing it
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: yes, it's a factor to keep in mind
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: does that help to clarify where we are now?
[9:30] Jamie Palisades: As a preliminary matter, Gwyn, can I just ask for a frame for this? Are we discussing "how to select LRA" ? "powers of LRA"? "How CDS works 101"? Is there a charge from the commissions; creation that guides us, or is free-form the right way to disuss it for now>
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Free form is fine; the purpose, however, is to try to gather consensus on SOME things that will be the base for a recommendation to the RA
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, the first thing is recognising that the LRA is a *political role*.
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This has implications — eg. on the "conflict of interests" issue.
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I would suggest (perhaps because it's EASIER) to discuss "Power of the LRA"
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because they're pretty well defined already, at least some of the administrative ones
[9:32] Moon Adamant: and not only that Gwyn
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And last, I'd suggest — "how to get a LRA"
[9:32] Jamie Palisades propsoed we take that one as ackonwledged Name me a reently nonpolitical LRA
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: None "recently", Jamie
[9:32] Moon Adamant: if the LRA is a political role, then it must not be appointed in the same way as other political roles, so to avoid conflicts of power
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Moon, exactly.
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We should NOT have "two similar roles"
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (eg. Chancellor/LRA)
[9:33] Feminist Expedition: so, we want to make recommendations on procedures...
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "should" is an opinion btw
[9:33] Feminist Expedition: ?
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: and perhaps on powers too femi
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Recommendations on a framework that the citizens view as reflecting more what they feel what the LRA should be, what they should do, and how they should get into power
[9:34] Moon Adamant: it seems to me
[9:34] Moon Adamant: that a clear statement is due to the citizens
[9:34] Moon Adamant: when you rankl a faction, and the candidates inside teh faction
[9:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we might have agreed that the LRA is a political figure wielding power in the CDS beyond a "normal" RA member. That should be stressed/clarified on the Constitution, for instance. One recommendation
[9:34] Moon Adamant: you're expressing DEFINETELY your preference for LRA
[9:35] Moon Adamant: this, i think, is not clear to many of our citizens
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, Moon — so the election to the RA, right now, allows citizens to "indirectly" nominate a LRA.
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (since candidates are ranked)
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well, inside a faction)
[9:35] Jamie Palisades grins and respectfully disagreeing with the chair's thus far unsupported assumption that the LRA and Chancellor are in any way similar, or even competing, roles in practice for the last year or so. Further he thinks that roel competitiive is a natural part of checks and balances, so the assertion, were it to prove true, would not be a fatal one in his view.
[9:36] Jamie Palisades: so we may be agreed that they both have power but tha's about it, so far
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Definitely not similar in the *powers* they have, Jamie.
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: i don't think the LRA and Chancellor roles are similar either. they certainly shouldn't be
[9:36] Moon Adamant: they must not be
[9:36] Moon Adamant: and more importantly
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: problem is that the RA has tended to behave in an 'executive' fashion rather than purely as a legislature
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Similar, to an extent, in the *source* of power, WHEN (and if!) a LRA is 'elected' by its peers.
[9:36] Moon Adamant: the transfer of power must be processed in different ways for each role
[9:36] Jamie Palisades: well I read Gwyn and Moon as having alreday asserted that change is needed due to similarity. Perhaps I mistook?
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat: that too!
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Similarity in the *source of power*, Jamie.
[9:36] Moon Adamant: no, Jamie
[9:37] Jamie Palisades: Excellent point Pat
[9:37] Jamie Palisades: let's get back to Pat's point after Moon corrects me
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: LRA and Chancelllor are elected in very different fashions currently
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ..., except for once, Pat
[9:37] Moon Adamant: i for one am certain that the correct way is to have the most ranked candidate as LRA
[9:37] Moon Adamant: since then he gets his transfer of power directly from the people
[9:38] Feminist Expedition: good point...
[9:38] Moon Adamant: while the chancellor gets his transfer of power from the RA
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami agrees with that
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well, not ALL people, mind you, Moon — only faction members rank their candidates)
[9:38] Moon Adamant: everyone is free to join a faction
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's true
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: but... what if the LRA is then the leader of a minority in the RA. it's open to the majority to disrupt proceedings in protest
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... which HAS happened...
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: (or one or two of the majority oppostion parties)
[9:39] Moon Adamant: that depends a good deal on a lot of stuff, such as namely, courtesy, willingness to collaborate and procedures
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: still holding my comments for later on that
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're welcome to present them now hehe
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: I thin there's some goodf foment here, hate to break the rhythm
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: and there are some bits underparsed
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: like Pat's
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: [9:36] Patroklus Murakami: problem is that the RA has tended to behave in an 'executive' fashion rather than purely as a legislature
[9:40] Jamie Palisades grins -- let me assert something
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, oh yes
[9:41] Jamie Palisades: the RA steps in because the executive g=branch was practically dormant
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: yes, i agree jamie
[9:41] Moon Adamant: i agree
[9:41] Jamie Palisades: which is ... not a good steady state .. but a good example of the balance working
[9:41] Jamie Palisades: so .. was there in fact a design problem revealed? or just a self-correcting system?
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: i was trying to be polite but... we have suffered from mmm less activist chancellors
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: Too early to say on th new one - might be all talk but, generally, yes
[9:42] Patroklus Murakami: i think it's down to individuals rather than institutions but.... that's always my position!
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: well
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see your point, Jamie: if the Executive does little, the RA does more 'executive' work to compensate; and vice-versa. And as checks and balances go, that's not "bad" in itself.
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: factions elect the Chancellor
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: so fdoesa a string (hypothetically!) of lame chancellors mean a faction problem?
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: e.g., not enough feedback or conseuqnece?
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: no, no not now Gywn point is, why shoud factions both to pick a good one?
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: what fate accured to them if they do not?
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a slight difference — CHancellors are "individuals", who can be non-aligned (although, well, they will need to get SOME faction support at some point to get elected by the RA...); LRA, however, are candidates.
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: to say the voters turn them out in six months - at SL speeds - is I submit ludicruous
[9:43] Patroklus Murakami: well, you could argue that we end up with the lowest common demoninator as chancellor
[9:44] Jamie Palisades grins broadly and offers proof by waving his hand
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway... we are not discussing the Executive today
[9:44] Moon Adamant: i am sorry, but aren't we wandering a bit?
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: cos a candidate from the 'winning' faction will never get elected
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's get back to the LRA.
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: well Moon the connection was whether RA and LRA are too powerful
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: no offence intended
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: and I was saying
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: I do not think the activist RAs are evidence of that
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: and yes, we have wandered away from the LRA
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: but rather, were just jumping in as needed, more or less
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: so
[9:44] Moon Adamant: since they are directly elected by the people, define 'too powerful'
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: IS there a case for changing the current state of affairs via a vis LRA?
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, i see your side-issue, Jamie, and I agree with both Pat and you on that: *individuals* make the difference, the system might not be THAT flawed.
[9:45] Feminist Expedition: perhaps lra should be elected position?
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Fem
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the issue.
[9:45] Feminist Expedition: yes
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if it's an elected position — who elects the LRA?
[9:45] Moon Adamant: the people, directly
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Other RA members? Then both Chancellor and LRA are elected *in exactly the same way*
[9:45] Soro Dagostino: Point of information?
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, go ahead, Soro!
[9:45] Soro Dagostino: I thought the LRA was elected by the RA?
[9:46] Moon Adamant: No Soro
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Soro — the LRA is always the individual that was highest ranked from the winning faction.
[9:46] Soro Dagostino: Hmmmm,
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: no soro. what gwyn said
[9:46] Moon Adamant: it's the first candidate to be setaed, technically speaking
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We DID once elect an LRA when the "winning faction" had NO members on the RA.
[9:46] Moon Adamant: seated*
[9:46] Jon Seattle: The idea of the LRA being elected directly by citizens and *not* being an RA representitive is making my head spin
[9:46] Moon Adamant: no no no Jon
[9:47] Jon Seattle: Thank goodness

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[9:47] Moon Adamant: the people already elect the LRA
[9:47] Moon Adamant: can't you see?
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
[9:47] Jon Seattle: Yes
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: When they rank candidates, they're saying who they wish the LRA to be.
[9:47] Feminist Expedition: so, chancellor position should be elected by the people?
[9:47] Moon Adamant: but this needs to be more explicit, my opinion
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: two alternatives 1) people elect LRA as now and RA chooses chancellor or 2) RA members select their LRA and the Chancellor is direcltly elected
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now *that's* another question, Fem
[9:47] Moon Adamant: no Fem
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: Moon I respectfulyl disagree
[9:48] Moon Adamant: because then you'd have two bodies with the exact transfer of power
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat: thanks for summarising the issue. Yes, that's exactly it.
[9:48] Feminist Expedition: lol
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: if u want different 'sources' of power for the roles
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: but am happy to go with Pat's summary
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have 1) now.
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We just need to figure out the special case when the "winning faction" has NO members at the RA (because they have left... for wahetevr reason)
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: Pat, can someone explain WHY - if someone actualyl aserts this vioew -- it is a design imperatiuve that "one be elected one way and the other a different way"?
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's "philosophy of the RA", Jamie
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Political theory
[9:49] Moon Adamant: political thory?
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: um
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: whose?
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: Not mine
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Divinely inspired rules
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: who assettys that CDS is bound by that alleged philosphy?
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand*
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn ... and smiles
[9:50] Moon Adamant: yes, my bush caught fire and told me this
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: jamie, otherwise you have a 'dual power' situation where people with the same democratic legitimacy can conflict
[9:50] Soro Dagostino: Why?
[9:50] Feminist Expedition: lol moon
[9:50] Feminist Expedition: ouch
[9:50] Jamie Palisades: yes I agree my monarchuist buddy that it is taken by some as a rule -- like divine right but I do not subscribe to it
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just what Pat said.
[9:50] Jamie Palisades: 'Pat? Thans - elaborate?
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, the REAL reason is Pat's answer, I was just being funny
[9:50] Jamie Palisades: and can it be explained a bit?
[9:51] Jamie Palisades: becauye IF I T:S RIGHT this wil lbe a simple exercise and reduced to Pat's either-or
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: if u have the LRA and chancellor both elected in the same way, who wins a dispute? both can claim legitimacy because of their mandate
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two bodies of Government that get the power bestowed upon them in exactly the same way WILL use that argument as conflicting with each other's roles.
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[9:51] Moon Adamant: exactly
[9:51] Jamie Palisades: heh I saee the CSDF position is clear
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: we already see the RA behave as 'executive'
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the way to fix this is making sure that the RA is the body that ALWAYS has the "highest legitimacy" in the CDS.
[9:52] Jamie Palisades: That would certainly support those who een to return LRA selection to the ancient regmine
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: and presumably the exec could behave in a legislative fashion if it so chose
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (since it's the one that gets all the power directly bestowed upon it by the universal vote)
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: recipe for deadlock in my opinion
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha Jamie
[9:52] Jamie Palisades: and what doe sthe evidence tell us of that prediction pat?
[9:52] Jamie Palisades: I look at the number of bills per term and I see different
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: i don't follow your point jamie
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That even though some roles do not get legitimacy in the same way, they still conflict?
[9:52] Jamie Palisades: I ask for evidence of your risk of deadlock
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2700 years of political theory?
[9:53] Jamie Palisades: it;s a great point! I just want to test if it has any truth to it.
[9:53] Jamie Palisades: in CDS.
[9:53] Jamie Palisades: wher we live
[9:53] Jamie Palisades: WEll some of us do
[9:53] Moon Adamant: well, jamie
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd not risk "going against history"
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Better play safe
[9:54] Jamie Palisades: heh heh heh OK - but if you want to play "examples from hisotry' tis will be a LONNNNG d=execriose
[9:54] Jamie Palisades: I do nto asdvuice the AShcroft B route for policymaking
[9:54] Jon Seattle: I have trouble dealing with the out of context of the larger electoral system -- as Claude mentioned several times, we have a system that radically levels all factions, and the LRA selectiion at least tries (not all that successfully) to make up for that leveling.
[9:54] Moon Adamant: i have heard that the House of the US has a special comission to make sure that Congress and Senate, when voting, do not produce uncoherent legislation
[9:54] Jamie Palisades: "I am wright becaue I know more about law and government that you"
[9:54] Jamie Palisades: as I recall that didn;t go over too well, here
[9:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[9:55] Jon Seattle: I like the spelling "wright"..
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:55] Jamie Palisades: eh I put communicatio oevr spelling
[9:55] Jon Seattle:
[9:55] Moon Adamant: lol
[9:55] Jamie Palisades: and am lucky to have tolerant longsuffering neighbors
[9:55] Moon Adamant: anyway Jamie
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: jamie, i'm trying to think of an example but struggling. but all RL political systems i'm familiar with have different electoral methods for different branches or houses
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hey, Ashcroft was wright too! .... he just made a political mistake, nominate himself for Absolute Leader
[9:55] Moon Adamant: what is YOUR point?
[9:55] Jamie Palisades: mine Moon?
[9:55] Moon Adamant: yes
[9:55] Jamie Palisades: ok
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: the only one i can think of is the roman republic
[9:56] Jamie Palisades: Here's what I see as to teh specific either-or Pat poses
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: where you had two proconsuls
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: and both had to agree before anything could happen
[9:56] Jamie Palisades: I think an exeutive appointed by an LRA is beholder and LESS not MORE of an independent check
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie's point is that there is no problem in electing bodies of Government with overlapping functions in the same way, since in practice we never saw any conflict arising from that, but from conflicting *personalities* — did I get that right, Jamie?
[9:56] Jamie Palisades: I think an LRA who is esleetcd by its members, not in the election, is more likely to succeed as a consensuau leader
[9:56] Jamie Palisades: so I think Pat's either or is badly flawed=, theoertical, and ignores the empirical evidence in CDS )
[9:57] Jamie Palisades: done
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[9:57] Moon Adamant: i can't agree
[9:57] Jamie Palisades is shocked
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: well, you're proceeding from one direction. i proceed from another
[9:57] Jamie Palisades: lveo to hear both
[9:57] Jon Seattle: Jamie, but what about the radical leveling that our electoral system does?
[9:57] Jamie Palisades: that's # I want to hear@!
[9:57] Moon Adamant: that would mean that you'd have to elect the Chancellor directly, which means that the Executive power would hold the immediate mandate, not the legislative branch
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: FWIW I *agree* that an LRA elected by the RA members has a better chance of success
[9:58] Jamie Palisades: Moon I hear a few RL countries struggle by adequately with that model do you imply it;s unworkable?
[9:58] Soro Dagostino: I concur
[9:58] Moon Adamant: and teh legislative branch should be sovereign
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well, we'll address that on a subsequent meeting more in detail, Jon, although I agree that 'having the LRA' is currently our way to guarantee that the winning faction does have a slight advantage)
[9:58] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn - 'having the LRA" means the ancien regmie? or current system?
[9:58] Moon Adamant: i don't think it's unworkable - but i point out that many more use the system i am defending
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: problem with the RA electng the LRA is it does not respect the citizens' votes
[9:58] Jon Seattle: In my case, I think I would prefer that 1. we get rid of the radical leveling, and 2. let the RA elect the LRA. If you do only half of this, you do another injustice however.
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ancient Regime in the sense that the LRA is the individual RA member with the highest ranking in the winning faction, yes.
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: :Georgrpahically it does semto have ysome concentration in ... looking around the roonm .. some continents
[9:59] Soro Dagostino: Have to go. Is there to be a transcript?
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat: yes
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Soro: yes!
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: ()Hi Soro )
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: instead the LRA would be selected in a smoke-filled room as part of a deal
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: hmmm
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: behind the backs of the voters
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: when talknig about the LRA as selected by FACTION VOTE (and thus indirectlty the voters)
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: as opposed to by RA
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes...
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: i think the voters' will should be respected
[9:59] Jamie Palisades: it seems to me that we're missing one of your best arguments
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we are?
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: oh yes
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: which one might taht be?
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: the cvurrent (bizaare, overcomplex, opaue, OCD) mathematic principales for CDS elections can leave a party with a RAW MAJORITY of voters without am RA majority
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: so you have, saw, a wildly popular CSDF (imagine) ...
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That we elect factions because there is a high rotativity of members in the CDS (and SL)?
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Jon's point.
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: .. but the strangely named PhD math rules leave them with 3 out of 7 RA members
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: so
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: in that sense
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami: oh i know jamie. that's a glaring failure of our electoral system
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: the LRA rules you support and keen to return to
[10:01] Moon Adamant: indeed
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes — to be addressed on a subsequent meeting
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: was a corerctio of the overentustasic supoport for minorities in the s=current faction voting protocol
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[10:01] Moon Adamant: a much more concerning point than how the LRA ius elected, in fact
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: I agree Moon
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: I thin LRA selection was just a pallative to addres that bigger problem
[10:01] Jon Seattle: Indeed.
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's an a posteriori evaluation of the "political role of the LRA", Jamie, but I certainly can't disagree with the way you state it
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (or the way Jon stated it too)
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: we're looking at this problem from the wrong angle - the problem is not 'how can we get an LRA who commands the support of the RA' but 'how can we empower the LRA to keep order when an RA member persistenly disrupts the meetings'
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooook
[10:02] Moon Adamant: frise, eject? .)
[10:02] Jamie Palisades: I;m experimenting, in this hat, with a fairly radicaly poisiton that how the LRA is sleected is sort of trvivial, compared to how RA members are selected .. anmd fixing the second muight dictate the first
[10:02] Moon Adamant: freeze*
[10:02] Jon Seattle: Pat, I hope the LRA will do more than that
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: if the LRA has that power moon
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to summarise (one hour gone!)... what you're suggesting (and this inludes Jon, Jamie, Pat) is that the way the LRA is appointed/elected is less important than figuring out how the RA is elected.
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok!
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: Pat I would love to chat about THAT too sometime - but did not see it on this agenda
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie... I second your point
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: Gywn, I agree with yourr summary
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you agree, we'll drop the discussion on how the LRA gets their job and postpone it when we tackle the RA elections,
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: in that case we'd just continue the discussion about the "powers" of the LRA instead.
[10:04] Moon Adamant: i agree with that point, while maintaining my opinion that the LRA should and is elected directly by the people
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, seems we have a majority of agreement
[10:04] Jon Seattle: I have to run.. thanks everyone
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: See you Jon, thanks so much for coming!
[10:04] Feminist Expedition: thx jon
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: bye jon ty for coming
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then let's talk about the powers of the LRA (and I wonder if we should talk about the "how to replace a LRA when there are no RA members of the winning faction" issue too)
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: on the latter point, the fallback is 'some other member of the same faction'. but we need clarity on what happens when the winning faction resigns en masse
[10:06] Moon Adamant: definetely the power to keep order in RA sessions
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Pat.
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps it should be the second ranked factions' highest ranked candiate
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: (gosh, that was hard to write!)
[10:07] Feminist Expedition: why not vote of the current ra?
[10:07] Moon Adamant: or do it absolutely, Pat
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would be prepared to second that proposal, Pat, as a recommendation from this commission. After all, if ALL members of the winning faction leave...
[10:07] Moon Adamant: all candidates can be ranked absolutely
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: this is going to depend on any changes we make to RA election, isn't it?
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah... but then, Moon, you'd not have the "advantage bit" we've been talking about
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, Pat, agreed
[10:07] Moon Adamant: and it reflects the reality more
[10:08] Moon Adamant: because you can have the second ranked from the same party as the first ranked, thus clearly showing the preference of teh people
[10:08] Moon Adamant: or you can have if from any other faction
[10:08] Moon Adamant: it doesn't really matter, in my pov
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No quite, Moon, but we're going back to the "election" issue. Right now, thanks to St League, if we have, say, 2 members of each faction A, B, C and 1 member of the faction , the absolute ranking would be ABACBCD
[10:09] Moon Adamant: ok then
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I prefer Pat's suggestion,
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if "A" is out of the RA,
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it would be the highest ranking "B" member.
[10:10] Jamie Palisades listens with interest
[10:10] Moon Adamant: er... the suggestions are then the same .)
[10:10] Feminist Expedition: if that's a proposal, i would second...
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unfair for the voters? Yes... since they voted A, not B. Well! But they should have vote on better A members that don't leave at a whim
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami raises an eyebrow
[10:10] Jamie Palisades: It does have the nice effect of incentiviszig a facrtion to keep "its' seats actualyl populated
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ok, I'll strike "leave at a whim" from the tarnscript because that was unfair )
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: jamie, yes.
[10:10] Jamie Palisades: and
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I much better like that wording
[10:11] Jamie Palisades: just think how well ti would work if ...
[10:11] Jamie Palisades: to borrow an idea from Moon ...
[10:11] Moon Adamant: yes?
[10:11] Jamie Palisades: membes lost their seats and their factino had to reappoint someone else, if they long were absent
[10:11] Jamie Palisades:
[10:11] Jamie Palisades: or maybe the factuion loses the seay
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh, yes, that's actually 'intended' but not 'explicit'
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: the message and incentive being - keep the RA fills with warm bodies, please
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: we're wandering into RA election procedures again
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, it's intended that they do, indeed, replace seats
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry — Pat you're RIGHT
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn, yes but they;re inextrciable
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: Pat -0 as for LRA power to keep orer
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: heh heh heh heh
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: oh I am sorry
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: what a year we have had heh heh
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We'll stay with Pat's suggestion of "LRA becomes the highest ranked candidate on the second highest voted faction, if there are no members left)
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: OK
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And now
[10:12] Jamie Palisades: ... let's get back to keeping orer
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: powers of the LRA, attempt #2
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Power #1: Keep order
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: indeed jamie, indeed
[10:13] Jamie Palisades: I submit there are two issues
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What does that entail?
[10:13] Jamie Palisades: 1. SL devioce pwoer
[10:13] Jamie Palisades: eject etc
[10:13] Jamie Palisades: and I sumiot that's under control - the tools exist
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Power #2 will be: collect and assemble all proposed bills for discussion — citizens need to know whom to send them)
[10:13] Jamie Palisades: AND that each RA OGUTH to be allows to create their rules, or change them
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, the latter is granted
[10:13] Moon Adamant: agree
[10:13] Jamie Palisades: the second half of keeping order is will power
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: the latter is already there
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, LRA *has* to have the Nuclear Bomb Button
[10:14] Moon Adamant: Jamie, if need be
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: I believe most attempts to snaction RA members for abonmable beavhuior fail fro lack of RA will
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami agrees with jamie
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: and I am not immediately sure how to fix that one
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, now THAT's a change in the proposed procedures, Jamie!
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: spekaign as an LRA
[10:14] Moon Adamant: a LRA can call a point of order and ask the RA to vote on the freezing/ejection of an unruly member´
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: the 2/3 rule means the LRA can never restore order
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: i DID persuade, bully and vail peopel ibnto order
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: a LOT
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: BUT
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... instead of having "all RA members voting to kick someone out", replace by "The LRA will have the power to kick someone out"
[10:14] Moon Adamant: dunno why that never happened
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: I would not SANCTION people without an RA vote
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: OK!
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: you have to have someone behaving more than outrageously to get 2/3
[10:15] Jamie Palisades: so if they were - hypoethtcially - all without will to stop bad hevaior .. well ...
[10:15] Moon Adamant: simple majority
[10:15] Feminist Expedition: so power one is personal power to eject and ra vote for sanctioning...?
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: (even more outrageously than we've seen. god knows what that looks like)
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right — proposed recommendation: The LRA can kick people out; the RA members are needed to vote on a 2/3 majority for SANCTIONS
[10:15] Jamie Palisades: permit mw to borrow a page from RL legislatyi8ve bodies.
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that's pretty much what happens in the SC hehe )
[10:15] Jamie Palisades: There are clouture votes
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fem; yes
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: as in, RA wants an RA memebr to just stop taking and that person will not

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[10:16] Moon Adamant: well, sanctions can be like in soccer: you're forbidden to play in the next two RAs? .)
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: so
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: what do you do?
[10:16] Moon Adamant: that would be highly effective
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: well if that person is attacking people or bein duistuprive, LRA can freeze or eject
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: but
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: let's say it;s less than that
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: more likely
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: let;'s say it;s she or he keepings talking'and talking
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: an interrrupting
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: and talking
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: and pontificating
[10:16] Feminist Expedition: if ra member is not following rules of order, use power one
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: and EVERYONE ELSE wants jher or him to stop?
[10:17] Feminist Expedition: lra can set a time limit for the discussion
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: as LRA, do I eject?
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: no
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: freeze, eject
[10:17] Feminist Expedition: yes
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: I must first test that "everyone wants" issue
[10:17] Feminist Expedition: disagree...
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say freeze first; eject next
[10:17] Feminist Expedition: rules of order...
[10:17] Moon Adamant: cease and desist
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I have my qualms... I'll talk afterwards about them
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: ok Femi, let;'s go with that. How does LRA KNOW when it;s time?
[10:17] Feminist Expedition: set a limit and enforce
[10:17] Feminist Expedition: basic facilitation
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would the "limit" be?
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: I could have ejected three members of the last KLRA multiple times on my own
[10:18] Moon Adamant: though i must say that snactiuons like in soccer do sound attractive
[10:18] Feminist Expedition: gwen, depends on the issue....
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: abnd then spend my life in SC jangaroo court
[10:18] Feminist Expedition: yet, ra depends on respectful working conditions...
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Fem, effectively it will depend on someone's judgement.
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: well, imagine the drahma?
[10:18] Moon Adamant: it does indeed Fem
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In this case, the LRA's judgement.
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: hmmm I really like Femi;'s words
[10:18] Feminist Expedition: yes, lra needs judgment
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:19] Jamie Palisades: we have some mediation and mutual trustprojects in SL - and "resfectful workign conditions" is a good principle to try to protect.
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I like those words too.
[10:19] Moon Adamant: i propose freezing as a warning
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now... the reverse side of the coin: how to prevent ABUSE?
[10:19] Feminist Expedition: second
[10:19] Moon Adamant: if behaviour persists, then LRA is free to call a motion to eject
[10:19] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn - if LRA reeze legitimate oppositiin, for example?
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Jamie)
[10:19] Jamie Palisades: hm
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Moon's suggestion... LRA can freeze at will; to eject, it requires a motion
[10:20] Jamie Palisades: well you can gather up one of the consantly-iotching-to-act lynch mobs and impeach the LRA at SC I guess
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the frozen people cannot talk lol — so only the remainder will vote )
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Jamie )
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: LOL
[10:20] Feminist Expedition: if lra is disrespectful to the democratic process...there must be procedures...
[10:20] Moon Adamant: it only lasts a couple of minutes
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, we have impeachment for that.
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon: so it means: "let's put it to the vote QUICKLY!"
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: RA can vote to eject the LRA
[10:20] Jamie Palisades: exactly Femio - an LRA who abuses freeze has broken law and is susceptibel of remioval by SC, unedr current law, I believe
[10:21] Feminist Expedition: k
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat: aha — HOW, if it's the LRA that sets the motions?
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: Pat that and EU2.5 gets you a SMALL melange
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie: yes
[10:21] Moon Adamant: what about then
[10:21] Moon Adamant: 1. public warning to cease and desist
[10:21] Moon Adamant: 2. freeze
[10:21] Feminist Expedition: so... ra needs sergeant at arms?
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: of 1.80 stirling I guess
[10:21] Moon Adamant: 3. motion to eject
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Under 3, I wonder: will frozen members vote too or not?
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: hmmmmm
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami has no idea what jamie is talking about - melange?
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn>? Are we describing recommendatio to RA for its own operating procedures?
[10:22] Feminist Expedition: no - freezing should include loss of voting powers
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Scary thoughts, Jamie
[10:22] Jamie Palisades: I agree with Femio
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, that's fine, Jamie
[10:22] Moon Adamant: i tend to agree with Fem
[10:22] Moon Adamant: the member has already proven unruly
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We're an extension of the RA, open to the citizenship; we certainly can propose that the RA changes its internal procedures!
[10:22] Feminist Expedition: yes, loss of vote is consequence...
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok!
[10:23] Feminist Expedition: per lra judgments
[10:23] Jamie Palisades: but I fear a lot of faction party line votes regardless of level of bad bvehavior
[10:23] Jamie Palisades:
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, jamie, that will happen all the time
[10:23] Feminist Expedition: so... a need to elect more good hearted servants?
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If nobody has anything further to suggest, I move that we approve Moon's suggested list of procedures, with Fem's added comment (frozen members don't vote on the motion)
[10:24] Jamie Palisades: Pat: cappucino at Startucks, say 'melange' = latte
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or rather, I move that we approve Moon's suggestion FOR RECOMMENDATION to the RA
[10:24] Feminist Expedition: another point... power to set agenda...
[10:24] Jamie Palisades:
[10:24] Moon Adamant: oh, and me thinking it was an obscure reference to Dune
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (after we agree with this, Fem, ok?)
[10:24] Jamie Palisades:
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: that was taken away femi, it's mechanical now
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: any seconds on the motion?...
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: i second
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: good thanks
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyone that is ABSOLUTELY AGAINST it?
[10:25] Moon Adamant: i second, but i think procedures code should be studied to prevent abuse
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What can we suggest at this point, Moon?
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: To prevent abuse I mean?
[10:25] Moon Adamant: hmmm, limitation on freezings
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "LRA can only freeze one member per hour" ?
[10:26] Moon Adamant: say that A is behaving very badly
[10:26] Moon Adamant: LRA warns, A carries on,
[10:26] Moon Adamant: LRA freezes and announces
[10:26] Moon Adamant: he can do this twice, after that, automatical motion of oder
[10:26] Moon Adamant: order
[10:26] Jamie Palisades: naaah
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehehehehe
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: I see no need for time limits
[10:27] Moon Adamant: naaah?
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: but what if the disruptive member persists and RA members aren't prepared to vote to eject them?
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're draconian
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: any LRA will be given pause by the risk of consequences for abuse of this
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: i don't agree with time limits either
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok!... I see both your points
[10:27] Feminist Expedition: for me... lra needs the power to maintain order
[10:27] Feminist Expedition: trust him/her
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, Moon's suggestion is overruled
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: oh no, in fact Pat describes a situation i DID in fact encounter a few months ago
[10:28] Feminist Expedition: then lra can continue freezing
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami feels jamie's pain
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: [10:27] Patroklus Murakami: but what if the disruptive member persists and RA members aren't prepared to vote to eject them?
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We'll stick to what we *did* agree with: 1. cease & desist 2. Freeze 3. motion to eject, frozen members don't vote
[10:28] Moon Adamant: the variety of situations you encountered a while ago Jamie, would fill a book
[10:28] Feminist Expedition: and refreezing
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie: the LRA keeps freezing them
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: OK, that's an answer
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they won't get kicked out,
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but they won't vote
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: But
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and won't talk
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: let me point out
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: I as LRA I would have been entitled to go tho the faction of a farctious member ...
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If the LRA abuses that power, the RA members can always impeach him at the SC court
[10:29] Patroklus Murakami: i think we also need to give the LRA the power to suspend or end sessions
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: .. and say, OK, Faction, I have frozen this person 6 times
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: I states publicly that they are disruptive
[10:29] Feminist Expedition: i think the issue is maturity; ra members need to be fully-aware and agreeable to the need for order
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: I want you to remove them
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: right?
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Without a motion, Pat? ^^
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn gasps.
[10:29] Feminist Expedition: lol
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: Choke on your latte?
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: afk a sec
[10:30] Moon Adamant: ok, i am sorry to leave you - hope i have made some helpful contributions
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fem, sadly, that is not often the case
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: well, what if the LRA needs to leave but the RA refuses to suspend the session?
[10:30] Moon Adamant: very good meeting, thank you all
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: does it continue to meet indefinitely?
[10:30] Feminist Expedition: thx moon
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, Pat,
[10:30] Moon Adamant waves
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the meeting has a set time
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and there has to be a motion to continue it
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: they spent a good hour and a half debating that after i had to leave one early
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: (early = after two and a half hours)
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:31] Feminist Expedition: so...perhaps lra power 3 is ability to suspend meeting, in case of er, without vote...
[10:31] Feminist Expedition: seems reasonable...
[10:31] Feminist Expedition: others are still free to stay and chat
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'd say: the meetings HAVE a set time. After that time, either there is a motion to continue or not. Sure, there might be an emergency iRL that requires the LRA leaving...
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[10:31] Feminist Expedition: (sorry...forgot what power#...)
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I dislike that for one reason
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: ok, it needs thought
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: unless, of course,
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that the meeting HAS to be AT LEAST as long as set on the agenda
[10:32] Feminist Expedition: there is also the sl issue of the lra getting blinked offworld...
[10:32] Patroklus Murakami: i just thought i'd raise it because we're discussing how to deal with difficult situations
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, understandable
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: when the LRA leaves,
[10:32] Feminist Expedition: i think it's a point to consider with lra powers
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the RA technically cannot continue anyway
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since there is no one "chairing" it
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and we've just said
[10:33] zephyru Zapedzki: hello
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: hehe, you might think so gwyn
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that the RA ought not to elect a provisory LRA
[10:33] Feminist Expedition: hello zephyru
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: hi zephyru
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hiya Zeph
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm
[10:33] zephyru Zapedzki: u r not camping lol
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What I wish to avoid is that an LRA can set a huge agenda
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: then after 5 minutes
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: suspend the meeting and stall everything
[10:33] Feminist Expedition: oh but we wish we were...
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: without opposition
[10:33] Feminist Expedition:
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I prefer that meetings have a set time, and an agenda that is reasonable for that time
[10:34] zephyru Zapedzki: im new at this sim
[10:34] Jamie Palisades: jhmmm
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if there is an "emergency" the LRA can always ask for a motion to table
[10:34] zephyru Zapedzki: u all from here?
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Zephyru, yes
[10:34] Feminist Expedition: well, you've found a committee meeting
[10:34] Jamie Palisades: o the :LRA has the power that this person always can stop everythign m=by kleaving?
[10:34] Feminist Expedition: sorry, but we are wrapping a long discussion
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: this is the 4th Meeting of the Electoral Commission, zephyru
[10:34] Jamie Palisades: If that's your take Gwyn I again must disagree
[10:34] Feminist Expedition: why wouldn't such an lra be impeached?
[10:34] zephyru Zapedzki: i dont want to bother
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I disagree with myself then, too, Jamie
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: no probaly with visitors zephyr
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: *problem
[10:35] Patroklus Murakami: jamie's point is a good one
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: WE have had LRAs leave, as I recll
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Visitors are welcome, we're open to all citizens to talk here, zephyru
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: should the RA then lay down & die?
[10:35] zephyru Zapedzki: so u belong to this island?
[10:35] zephyru Zapedzki: ty
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: ( I will leave it to our chair to help our visitor sort out how to vsiit this meeting)
[10:36] zephyru Zapedzki: i want to say something that i consider important
[10:36] zephyru Zapedzki: about this place
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn notices that zephyru is NOT a citizen, so I'd kindly ask him to remain silent if you don't mind (IM's are of course fine)
[10:36] zephyru Zapedzki: i dont know if u consider that important
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: (always happy for feedbakc - but probably best not when it interrupts what otehrs are doing)
[10:37] zephyru Zapedzki: ill be short
[10:37] Jamie Palisades: heh
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, zephyru, I really have to apologise, but we do have some rules here
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway
[10:37] Jamie Palisades goes back and read's Mamde Chair;s comments about handling out of order behaviro and watches with great interest)
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:37] zephyru Zapedzki: theres an expo there, jayalli hawthorne, the display says oils on canvas but the reality is that are photos worked on pc
[10:37] zephyru Zapedzki: thats all
[10:37] zephyru Zapedzki: i have the proves if u want
[10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, zephyru, and this would be my final warning to ask you to be silent, if you don't mind
[10:38] zephyru Zapedzki: thats all
[10:38] Patroklus Murakami: well, we try to be nice to visitors but we are almost at the end of our meeting and need to wrap up
[10:38] Jamie Palisades smiles beatificalyl and wathces Ms Llewelyn
[10:38] zephyru Zapedzki: n im sorry to interrupt ur meeting
[10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Apologies taken
[10:38] Feminist Expedition: unfortunately, must jet... thx all
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... we are still stuck on the issue of how to prematurely finish a meeting
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: so, we probably haven't reached a conclusion on how to deal with the end of RA meetings without giving the LRA draconian powers
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I really don't agree having the LRA simply finishing it off on its own,
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I understand that an RA without a LRA to lead it
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: Madame chair?
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: would probably be stumped anyway.
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, no conclusion... and yes, Jamie?
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: is it yoru vioew that under CURRENT law the RA cannot act without its LRA?
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: heh heh
[10:40] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps the two hour limit should be a guillotine unless there's a motion to continue *and* LRA agrees?
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh who would introduce points of the agenda; call for votes, etc?
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: I believe it;s fulyl able to do so
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They could ceryainly TALK for the RECORD.
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: becaue an act that is IS order is election of a replacement
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: heh
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Another temporary LRA?
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: but there are no procedures for a temporary replacement
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: tell me it;s impossible =- and remember who you;re talking to, hee hee
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: as it happens, for future hapless readers of this transcariopt .. that's how I became LRA
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: oh i know jamie, you're election was wholly unconstitutional
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn *coughs*
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it was not
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... since if it were, the SC wouldn't have allowed it
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "innocent until proven guilty", Pat
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: no gwyn, that's not how it works
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: yes what I shame for the person that resigned, pehaps hopign to cause a crises constitutionally, eh? SHould that prove to be a correct reading or our vapourous constiotution
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooook
[10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, back to the tricky bit.
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: my intention was not to cause a crisis or teach lessons - that was ulrika's modus operandi
[10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would be fine with accepting a "substitute LRA" *within* the alloted time
[10:42] ThePrincess Parisi: how to be fair and make sure you always win?
[10:42] ThePrincess's translator: o modo de ser justos e certifique-se sempre ganhar?
[10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Prin
[10:42] ThePrincess Parisi: that is a tricky one
[10:42] ThePrincess's translator: que é uma delicada uma
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: I impute no moptive
[10:42] ThePrincess Parisi: hi
[10:42] ThePrincess's translator: oi
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: Hi Prin
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn repeats herself: I would be fine with accepting a "substitute LRA" *within* the alloted time
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so long as:
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) the agenda is not changed
[10:43] ThePrincess Parisi: LOL
[10:43] ThePrincess's translator: LOL
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) there is no b)
[10:43] Jamie Palisades: que pasa?
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: e caida de la maquina d traduccion pro favor
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do we really need your translator, Prin?
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: i'd agree with that too. but there should be a guillotine so meeting's can't be endlessly extended against the LRAs will
[10:44] ThePrincess Parisi: i am trying to turn it off sorry
[10:44] ThePrincess's translator: Estou a tentar desligá-lo desculpa
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: detaching it will do the trick, Prin *rolls eyes*

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[10:44] ThePrincess Parisi: bite me transie
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: ok, back to esceula
[10:44] ThePrincess Parisi: ?
[10:45] Jamie Palisades: take all that to the shoolyard for fights later please
[10:45] Jamie Palisades: we're still in session
[10:45] ThePrincess Parisi: she started it
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, ok, b) would be then: so long as the meeting time is kept within the time defined on the original agenda (usually 2 hours)
[10:45] Jamie Palisades playfuyllu notes the just concludeed new recommended protocol for sanctioning disruptive bevahior in governemtn meetings
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Prin, I'm sorry, for the sake of the argument, I'm chairing this commission, and yes, I "start" to ask people not to engage in unruly and disruptive behaviour.
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: hehe
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes.
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway
[10:46] Jamie Palisades: hmm so Gwyn - the concept you are propmoting is that replacements can be selected on a only-until-end-of-meeting basis?
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, any comments on a) and b) ?
[10:46] ThePrincess Parisi: well thank you for complaining about my translater i was trying to get it turned off and you were a smart ass
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
[10:46] ThePrincess Parisi: well i do
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn waits for comments...
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, I do need to go in a bit...
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: i'm cool with a) and b)
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought you would, Pat
[10:47] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn can PI poitn out my Q to you avaobe in chat, for clarification?
[10:47] Jamie Palisades: *above, sorry
[10:47] ThePrincess Parisi: i dont think we need a LRA to have any power, just to be administrative anyway
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie Palisades: hmm so Gwyn - the concept you are propmoting is that replacements can be selected on a only-until-end-of-meeting basis?
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And my answer was: "Yes"
[10:48] AbaBrukh Aabye feels to much a novice to be able to make reasonable objections to anything yet
[10:48] Jamie Palisades: aH GOT IT THX
[10:48] AbaBrukh Aabye: *too
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww Aba
[10:48] ThePrincess Parisi: fresh eyes are always god aba
[10:48] ThePrincess Parisi: good
[10:48] AbaBrukh Aabye: just give me time
[10:48] ThePrincess Parisi: so your fresh eyes with unbiased opinions are a good thing aba
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sometimes having a clear mind without preconceptions gives us the most lucidity in deciding complex issues
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed, Prin
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, so I'd say, that goes into the recommendations too.
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So...
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Back to "powers"
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is clear —
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... receiving all items to put on the agenda
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then, draft the agenda
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Announce the meeting, with the agenda, and the expected time
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chair the meeting
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Keep order
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Keep procedures — eg. call th motions for a vote, count votes
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Post the meeting transcript & decisions taken
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: giving them over for the RA archivist
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What else?
[10:50] Jamie Palisades notes- what's been quetsinied recentl yis the power to REJECT agenda items
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: hmm, LRA has no power to reject items as far as i recall
[10:51] [ kunst ] Update Group: Come and visit us to see our new bar set!
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: the setting of the agenda is pretty mechanical now
[10:51] [ kunst ] Update Group owned by Nicolas Zhong gave you '[ kunst ] new bar equipment' ( http://slurl.com/secondlife/kunst/129/59/45 ).
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed.
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: old items first, new items at the end
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: i think a responsibility should be to keep the laws and transcripts up to date in the absence of an RA archivist
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok,
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: it's better to have one but.... can't always get the staff
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who watches the watcher, etc.
[10:52] Jamie Palisades grins
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, if the RA fails in their duties,
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: It is my hope that a portal owned officially by CDS wil lhelp
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who can file a complaint, and to whom?
[10:53] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn - anyone - to SC
[10:53] Jamie Palisades: ay citizen has the rigth to reda their own laws, I do not see a 'standing' problem
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: i'm afraid i must get going soon too
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good, Jamie
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What you're essentially saying
[10:53] Jamie Palisades: I;d like to share somethign with the group when appropriate
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is that this commission has reviewed the "powers of the RA" and finds no fault with them?
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now is the right time!
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: powers of the RA or LRA?
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: waits
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: and i'd love to hear what jamie has to share
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sorry*
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LRA of course
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn *slaps her forehead*
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami is mr pedantic today
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, please, Jamie
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well this is supposed to get transcripted, so it's fine to be pedantic!)
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: ok
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: Thanks. I have two observations to share as a statement. Be patient, I promise this relates directly to LRA powers & selection. First and most acutely. We should do things by design not inertia.
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: (pedantic? logn statements? Gwyn? heh .. continuing ...)
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: CDS should be a model of virtual governance. We need not cling to any old or RL rules, we are free to design as we see fit. We can thus be one of two things.
One is a noble experiment in getting it right. See what we can do here - can we not do better than the squablling, underinclusive, opaque habits to which RL governments fall?
IF THAT IS OUR GOAL: we need to be bolder in our design .. FAR less tolerant of divisiveness, rule-gaming and sophistry .. more transparent and simple in our rules and methods. More servant leadership, less fighting over dominance for its own sake. AND our design work, in that case, should like any workmanlike project start with first principles. We should create rules and roles because they serve our objectives, not because they are traditional, or cool, or meet ego needs.
I am going to call this the Better World motive.
It is why I am here in CDS, period.
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: The other model is a sandbox for people to replicate and practice RL government behaviors. Enjoy the battle. Tussle over which faction and political view has dominance. IN an extreme case, one could imagine a staemate where 2 or 3 factions expend most of their energy in a nonvirtouous cycle: For Term [n], spend it trying to get back into power. For Term [n+1], repeal the outcomes of the other side's work. Repeat.
...
In that world sophistry and rudeness are tolerated; there are more power goals and fewer creation goals, as people fight over the bags of gold -- oops, I mean elected positions -- and the PROPER design issues of that game are exclusiveness, pogroms, and the definition of warring subdivisions and their perquisites. We might all this the World of Statecraft motive.
It interests me not in the least. In fact, I constantly find it immature and disappointing when I encounter it. And I submit that the original design of CDS government, by those now long absent, may have partaken richly
[10:56] Jamie Palisades: My second point was this ...
AS LRA I found that a weaker role, one where the LRA MUST compromise with RA members on the agenda, worked just fine, thwarted no progress, and permitted all factions to pursue and often succeeed in their respetuiev lgiestaivue goals. I submit that a servant leader model is better than a faction bully model. In many ways, which I can explain at length .. if
needed. Thanks. That's it
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lots to read, give me one minute, Jamie
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: are you leading to more on the LRA?
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: I think that part's summarized at the end, Pat
[10:58] Patroklus Murakami: ok, got it
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: at least if I am communicating well
[10:58] Patroklus Murakami: i think i disagree with almost every word and the false dichotomy you have presented
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with a few words
[10:59] Jamie Palisades: I look forward to the disussion
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: first of all, i'm very suspicious of anyone who claims to want a 'better world' in which all divisiveness and rudeness is abolished
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: that's not the real world and, where it's been tried, it's led to a much worse world
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: you have to accept people as they really are, warts and all
[10:59] Jamie Palisades: yes let's stop trying and just replicate RL here, grin ...
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I could write whole essays on it...
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: that means there will always be some bitchiness and backstabbing because.... that's part of what we are
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: this is RL!
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry... I need to go
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks for coming, guys!
[11:00] Jamie Palisades: and like any institutioon of people we CHOOSE what to tolerate and incentivize
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: SL is part of RL, the distinction is a false one
[11:00] Jamie Palisades: what does the design of CDS government incentivize?
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: bye gwyn. i'm afraid i must go too
[11:01] Jamie Palisades: what is our grtoss national product?
[11:01] Jamie Palisades: porograms?
[11:01] Patroklus Murakami: tho this discussion just became v interesting
[11:01] Jamie Palisades: ousting people>?
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll let you happily discuss immersionism and augmentism; I've recently found out that I'm a post-immersionist myself and will try to write an essay about that
[11:01] Jamie Palisades: niot sure it;s a business model