Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (14, 166, 41)
Meeting on 2008-09-14
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Bells Semyorka has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: sorry I am running a little late this morning
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie said he wasnt planning on coming, and I know Gwyn has other conflicts. Lets wait a little bit to see if we get 4 for a quorum.
Arria Perreault: ok
Bells Semyorka: Sounds like a good Plan Justice
Bells Semyorka: Hello Pat
Patroklus Murakami: hi everyone 
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: Hi Pat
Bells Semyorka: Hi Rubaiyat
Rubaiyat Shatner: hey bells, Justice
Bells Semyorka: Hello Pip!
Rubaiyat Shatner: I came bye to say I managed to catch a nasty cold
Justice Soothsayer: ah good, we have a quorum
Justice Soothsayer: try not to sneeze on anyone Ruba
Pip Torok: hello all
Rubaiyat Shatner: and would like to fade here, but I can be reached if you have a vote on the agenda and cannot make quorum
Arria Perreault: Hi Pip
Bells Semyorka: Hi Moon
Moon Adamant: hello all
Arria Perreault: Hi Rubayait
Pip Torok: hi Arria!
Justice Soothsayer: well, we have 5 present now, so lets get started
Moon Adamant: Mr. LRA, i will be only able to stay for one hour
Justice Soothsayer: Please note the notecard dispenser on the table has today's agenda, as well as Jamie's proposed revised commerce bill.
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Please also click on the recorder to indicate consent to being transcribed.
Pip Torok has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault has indicated consent to be recorded.
Rubaiyat Shatner has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: The agenda is also at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 097#p12097
Justice Soothsayer: Are there any changes to the proposed agenda?
Justice Soothsayer: Hearing no changes, I'll ask if anyone other than RA members plans to comment on anything on the agenda?
Moon Adamant: i may comment, if i am still around
Patroklus Murakami: yes, i'd like to comment on the revised commerce bill
Justice Soothsayer: OK, noted Pat.
Justice Soothsayer: Item I d. on the agenda is to discuss future RA meetings and times; I will be unavailable next weekend, so I guess that leaves us to meet on 28 September.
Justice Soothsayer: Shall we try to meet in LA?
Pip Torok: any reason why not?
Arria Perreault: yes, we just have to find a nice place
Moon Adamant: on the beach? .)
Rubaiyat Shatner: I am not certain I can make it, will try
Arria Perreault: in the maritime theater or on a public place
Justice Soothsayer: Ah, the maritime theatre is a good idea.
Moon Adamant: beacxh is public
Justice Soothsayer: Open air meeting!
Moon Adamant: or in front of the musaeon
Justice Soothsayer: So let's plan on the 28th, and I'll scout out a good meetingplace.
Justice Soothsayer: I don't have anything on "consent agenda" (noncontroversial items to approve with limited discussion) so let's jump to Item II on the agenda.
Justice Soothsayer: II. a. Budget.
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie outlined a budget at the last meeting, so I'll open discussion on that. Comments?
Justice Soothsayer: I'll move we approve the budget that Jamie outlined. Is there a second?
Bells Semyorka: I second
Pip Torok: second
Justice Soothsayer: Discussion?
Arria Perreault: we can thank the Chancellor for his work on this budget
Pip Torok: i'd second that
Arria Perreault: Hi Flyingroc
Flyingroc Chung: hi
Justice Soothsayer: I'll note that we dont really address in this budget any future expansion, but that does not preclude us from doing so later.
Pip Torok: hi FC
Bells Semyorka: Morning FRC
Justice Soothsayer: Hi FRC
Arria Perreault: yes, I think that expansion expenses are special
Flyingroc Chung has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: and need an extra vote at the RA
Justice Soothsayer: So are you ready to vote? The motion is to approve the Chancellor's proposed budget as outlined at the last meeting.
Arria Perreault: yes, ready
Pip Torok: ready
Bells Semyorka: readt Mr LRA
Justice Soothsayer votes Aye.
Arria Perreault: aye
Bells Semyorka: Aye
Pip Torok: aye
Rubaiyat Shatner: yes
Justice Soothsayer: Motion carries. Thanks!
Flyingroc Chung: abstain
Justice Soothsayer: The next item on the agenda is the commerce bill.
Justice Soothsayer: Please note that I posted a proposed bill on the forums
Justice Soothsayer: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 091#p12091
Flyingroc Chung: is this the same version as in the jug?
Justice Soothsayer: and Jamie has suggested some revisions, which is the version in the notecard dispenser.
Justice Soothsayer: Personally, I am fine with Jamie's bill as a substitute for mine, except for his proposed section 2.
Arria Perreault: section 2: measuring activity?
Justice Soothsayer: I am not comfortable with his definition of "substantial commercial activity" and would simply eliminate that section.
Arria Perreault: I second this idea
Justice Soothsayer: It would leave "commercial activity" fuzzy and undefined, but then some of us like fuzzy.
Arria Perreault: I have also problem with the pertinence of measurement of economic activity
Arria Perreault: Second Life have clearly a long trail economy
Moon Adamant: .... specially when you can have bots jumping out and in doing traffic
Arria Perreault: so traffic is less and less important
Justice Soothsayer: I also want to mention a disturbing post by Soro in this thread
Justice Soothsayer: Soro says " have not had any business for my practice since I bought the little space [which I did not understand had earning quotients that applied to it]. I have since read the proposed legislation and the older rules. I see that my purchase was inopportune.
I now see that I don't qualify to be in the area without paying what appears to be a substantial price for not being a "merchant."
Have fun.
I'll look elsewhere to find a place to put my little effort at mediation.
"
Justice Soothsayer: I think this is a good example of why we need to eliminate the threat of doubling and redoubling rents on commercially zoned places.
Justice Soothsayer: And we need to do it before we lose folks like Soro.
Arria Perreault: yes, I agree
Justice Soothsayer: So I am going to move the adoption of Jamie's proposed bill, except for Section 2. (the one in the notecard dispenser)
Patroklus Murakami coughs
Justice Soothsayer: Is there a second?
Flyingroc Chung: can we have a sunset clause?
Justice Soothsayer: Interesting idea, FRC.
Justice Soothsayer: I think there is already a sort of sunset clause in that section 6 talks about revisitng this in November
Arria Perreault: point 5 means that we eliminate the rent surcharge?
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, Arria.
Justice Soothsayer: Anyways, technically we need a second on my motion to open this discussion!
Justice Soothsayer: (RA members, then Pat for discussion)
Arria Perreault: I second
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Arria. So the motion is open for discussion, RA members first.
Flyingroc Chung: Well, as I said, I'd like for it to have a sunset clause... say have this in effect until teh RA session after "the receipt of the above
consultative report."
Arria Perreault: My opinion is that we have to encourage the commerce and not to force people who have choosed to open a shop to be successful
Pip Torok: agree
Arria Perreault: everyone has different reason to open a shop
Bells Semyorka nods
Arria Perreault: I have one. only because I like to design clothes
Arria Perreault: but I don't expect to become rich with it
Arria Perreault: again we have a long tail economy
Justice Soothsayer: FRC, I'll second your suggestion for a sunset clause for section 4's land set-aside, but I want it clear that we are repealing the penalties.
Flyingroc Chung: I agree, justice
Arria Perreault: that means that the offer is huge in SL and most of the shops have few clients
Justice Soothsayer: OK
Justice Soothsayer: Pat, your turn.
Patroklus Murakami: thanks justice
Patroklus Murakami: i think this is a much improved bill, the sections on promotion of business activity are very welcome
Moon Adamant raises her hand
Patroklus Murakami: i agree with the comments on section 2 though. the ways to measure activity seem a little bureacuratic. i can't see who would do this. it's probably best to take them out
Patroklus Murakami: one other final point
Patroklus Murakami: do you want to include 'non-profit' activities?
Pip Torok: ???
Patroklus Murakami: that might sound a bit odd. after all, they're hardly commercial!
Patroklus Murakami: but if you don't allow commercial space to be used by non-profits you rule out whole categories of ownership in the platz and forum - no party headquaters for example
Patroklus Murakami: that's all
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Pat.
Justice Soothsayer: Moon?
Moon Adamant: ok, thank you
Moon Adamant: i have a side remark and a question
Moon Adamant: as a side remark, i would like to remind this RA that the conclusions of the GMP survey showed that in fact, very few citizensfound most important to have a high traffic commerce in the CDS
Moon Adamant: the GMP survey was done expressely to help in the planning of the CDS activities
Flyingroc Chung: commerce can be an exchange of services, I think, including, say giving out faction information in return for the possibility of a vote.
Moon Adamant: My question is a personal question that addresses a problem i have atm
Moon Adamant: one of my friends, one of THE fashion bloggers in SL
Moon Adamant: wants to borrow my shop in the marktlplatz in NFS
Moon Adamant: what is the legal framework that comprises this issue?
Moon Adamant: you will all surely agree that it would be more interesting to have a shop than the CSDF publicity i have there atm
Arria Perreault: I think that we should have solutions for people who would like to have a commercial activity without being citizen
Moon Adamant: but my point here is this: what are my options? ajm i doing something illegal lending my shop?
Justice Soothsayer checks his malpractice insurance policy before offerring legal advice
Moon Adamant: my point is therefore
Moon Adamant: are we addressing ALL the issues?
Arria Perreault: I think that commercial activities is also to gibe the possibility to great designers to open a small shop with a LM to their main shop
Justice Soothsayer: I don't think we can really answer your question now, Moon
Moon Adamant: *sighs*
Arria Perreault: can we open commercial space for renting (and not for sale)?
Pip Torok: is there a possibility for the chancellor to giv a special "dispensation"
Justice Soothsayer: well, Arria, this bill would "rent" commercial space
Arria Perreault: if we have a bill, this bill must be complete
Arria Perreault: this is a common problem
Arria Perreault: great designers try to open small shops in several places to bring people to their main store
Justice Soothsayer: Ya know, I think Jamie has been very clear about handling proposed zoning issues, so maybe you could write a brief proposal, Moon, and he could then decide if the proposed use is legit.
Justice Soothsayer: If its not legit, then you could either appeal, or we could write a new law.
Moon Adamant: ok
Arria Perreault: having several shops of great designers can be very attractive
Arria Perreault: for traffic
Pip Torok: (good point)
Justice Soothsayer: Getting back to the proposed bill, I have distributed a revised notecard incorporating my deletion and FRC's addition of a sunset clause.
Arria Perreault: can I add something?
Justice Soothsayer: sure, Arria
Arria Perreault: can we add in this bill the fact that some plots are given for rent for external non-citizen designers?
Justice Soothsayer: ". Note that this lease does not, by itself, satisfy the requirements for citizenship."
Justice Soothsayer: So I think this does contemplate letting non-citizen commercial interests in
Arria Perreault: "Citizens would file a business description"
Arria Perreault: it's not clear
Flyingroc Chung: justice, I think it is the other way around, actualy.
Flyingroc Chung: it states that there is a requirement to be a citizen, and that owning commercial space won at a competition does not satisfy it.
Arria Perreault: that means only that having such a plot is not sufficient for being citizen
Justice Soothsayer: ah, yes, I think you are both right.
Arria Perreault: if we will go further, we can say that this plan is open to non-citizen
Arria Perreault: we can attract good designers
Arria Perreault: a good commercial activity needs competition
Moon Adamant: i have to leave now
Moon Adamant: thank you all
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks for coming, Moon.
Arria Perreault: thank you Moon
Bells Semyorka: Bye Moon
Flyingroc Chung: I'm actually not quite sure why we can't just give the citizenship to the winner of the competition.
Pip Torok: bye moon
Moon Adamant: see you all in one houyr at The Guild's meeting
Arria Perreault: there are people who are interested to open a shop here, but not interested to become citizen
Flyingroc Chung: it's good incentive to get good businesspeople in as citizens.
Justice Soothsayer: I would be OK with deleting "Note that this lease does not, by itself, satisfy the requirements for citizenship."
Flyingroc Chung: hm, why? you dont technically have to do anything once you are citizen, except pay your land fees.
Patroklus Murakami: well, if they then become citizens where is their land? the set aside is only for six months
Arria Perreault: I propose that some people can open a shop in CDS without being citizen
Patroklus Murakami: anyone interested in becoming a citizen can do so by purchasing a plot somewhere in the CDS apart from the set aside zone
Flyingroc Chung: then if they choose not to buy the parcel after 6 months, or any other parcel,they lose their citizenship.
Patroklus Murakami: the parcel is only available for six months, it's a special set aside scheme
Justice Soothsayer: Arria, we've had a long history of discussion back and forth about citizenship; that sort of change would, I fear, require quite a bit more disucssion.
Justice Soothsayer: There was, for instance, a whole commission on citizenship.
Flyingroc Chung: "At the end of the lease the citizen would have the right to purchase
> the plot"
Patroklus Murakami: sorry FR, missed that bit
Arria Perreault: we can have some plots only for rent
Arria Perreault: only for commercial activities
Arria Perreault: the people who rent these plots are mainly merchants, designers
Arria Perreault: they have several small shops and one or two mains stores in SL
Arria Perreault: they are probably not interested to be active members to all the lands where they rent a space
Arria Perreault: this is the way economy in SL works
Justice Soothsayer: well, as FR said, there is no requirement as to how active a citizen be, just that they own land.
Justice Soothsayer: Time for this topic has just about expired. Do you want to continue the discussion, or move to a vote on the bill as amended.
Arria Perreault: and when we have elections, somewhere will ask them for their votes ...
Arria Perreault: someone*
Arria Perreault: Moon's example shows that we don't go enough further ...
Bells Semyorka: I'd like for more time on this topic if possible, I dont think a vote is a good option quite yet
Arria Perreault: me too
Pip Torok: agree
Justice Soothsayer: OK, discussion?
Bells Semyorka: While I do see your point Arria, it's a good one. I have to ask how big is this market? Is there a growing intrest in designers renting space in CDS? and how would we get the word out?
Arria Perreault: it's propably our job to attract them
Arria Perreault: especially young designers
Arria Perreault: we can have events like fashion events
Pip Torok: well the way i see it is he priciple of a sim ... ours is _democracy_ and activity towards that BUT a sim must have commerce its its lifeblood ... therefore there must be a balance
Arria Perreault: we can let true merchants be merchants and invite them to come here
Pip Torok: "true2 MERCHANTS ...?
Arria Perreault: my proposal is to reservate some plots only for renting for non-citizen
Justice Soothsayer: Arria, I think you should brign that forward as a separate proposal.
Arria Perreault: there are people who come here to sell stuff. I am an amateur in this domain 
Justice Soothsayer: As it implicates a lot of issues well beyond the scope of this bill, such as the meaning of citizenship.
Arria Perreault: can we at least open the plan to non-citizen?
Arria Perreault: at the end, they win the citizenship like an extra-gift
Bells Semyorka: IMHO citizenship is not a prize to be won.
Pip Torok: agree!!
Arria Perreault: I know that
Arria Perreault: I just would like to show that we are only 70 people to be able to participate to this programm
Arria Perreault: and the most interested have already a shop
Arria Perreault: probably
Pip Torok: (not me for one)
Justice Soothsayer: Well, Arria, it is just fora trial period. If no one is interested, then we'll revisit it.
Arria Perreault: ok
Justice Soothsayer: Which, I thinkis why FRC suggested a sunset clause.
Arria Perreault: yes, I agree with that
Flyingroc Chung: well, I think I'm ready to vote
Justice Soothsayer: Me too.
Cindy Ecksol has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Pip? Bells? Arria? Ready to vote on bill as amended?
Bells Semyorka is ready
Arria Perreault: I am ready
Justice Soothsayer: The vote is on the bill as amended (see notecard). Please state your votes.
Pip Torok: i am ready
Arria Perreault: aye (mainly because it repels the surcharge of rent)
Pip Torok: aye
Flyingroc Chung: aye
Bells Semyorka: aye
Justice Soothsayer: Aye.
Justice Soothsayer: Motion carries, 5-0, 2 absent.
Justice Soothsayer: Other business?
Flyingroc Chung: none from me
Pip Torok: nor frim me
Justice Soothsayer: RA rules call for a period of open discussion, so I'll open the floor for anything anyone has to offer.
Justice Soothsayer: Please note the postings about Oktoberfest!
Bells Semyorka giggles Justice are you going in that dunking booth?
Patroklus Murakami: the kissing booth, surely?
Justice Soothsayer: whichever makes more money!
Bells Semyorka:
Justice Soothsayer: Though most people usually would prefer to dunk the LRA rathen than kiss him, I suspect.
Arria Perreault: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=oktoberfest
Patroklus Murakami: depends on the LRA
Bells Semyorka: thanks Arria for the link
Pip Torok: Must leave this meeting ... see some of you at the NG meeting
Justice Soothsayer: REady to adjourn?
Bells Semyorka: Bye Pip!
Arria Perreault: We can thank publicly the executive team for its job
Arria Perreault: publicly thank*
Bells Semyorka: Yes Arria, they are doing a fantastic job this term.
Flyingroc Chung: I'm ready to go back to bed. Stayed up til 4 playing spore 
Arria Perreault: must be a great game
Bells Semyorka: Can we call it a day Mr LRA?
Justice Soothsayer: chimp spore?
Arria Perreault: sweet dreams, FR
Flyingroc Chung: lol
Bells Semyorka: Ciao FR
Justice Soothsayer: With that, no further business coming before the RA, I think we are adjourned.
The meeting closed at 10:25 Linden time.