RA meeting - 12 October 2008 Transcript

[Justice Soothsayer]

Meeting on 2008-10-12
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Pip Torok: Arria ... JS has had to go off on an urgent personal matter for 10-15 munites .... has asked me to lead the meeting till then
Arria Perreault: Hi Pip
Pip Torok: i propose we give JS 10 minutes then proceed on he basis of whos here
Arria Perreault has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: ok. I agree
Pip Torok: fine (while your here can you answer me some basic questions on void sims?
Pip Torok: Folks JS is afk on an urgent matter "back in 10 minutes"
Pip Torok: first ... what territorial extent do bvoisd sims cover? ... one quarter a normal sim or the same extent with fewer prims?
Arria Perreault: same extent with fewer prims
Pip Torok: second exactly what problem do the monastery have that are best dea;t with with a void sim?
Arria Perreault: there several reasons:
Arria Perreault: - the Monastery can have more land around, a garden for example
Arria Perreault: - on a void sim, it will be more visible: it's easier to attract people
Pip Torok: i see
Arria Perreault: it is also a best way to finance it than today
Arria Perreault: finally, in our expansion plan, we have voids
Pip Torok: so you propose we resite the Mon. to the lie between AM and LA
Arria Perreault: with my proposal, CDS can add a void sim which is usefull, nice and free
Pip Torok: ah!
Arria Perreault: now LA is there, we see an horrible gap between LA and AM
Pip Torok: _no_ overheads?
Pip Torok: right ...
Arria Perreault: we see under AM ...
Arria Perreault: so I have imagined to be more useful to put this sim there, to solve this problem
Pip Torok: understood
Gwyneth Llewelyn sits on someone's head
Arria Perreault: I try to be useful for the community
Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi
Jamie Palisades: Missed my head by 2 meters, Gwynnie
Pip Torok: gwyn JS is afk for 5-10 mins on urgent personal business
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope nothing serious has happened!
Pip Torok: ive proposed we wait till 9.20
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* and is fine with that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello, Symo!
Jamie Palisades: Good morning all - and hi Symo
Pip Torok: not to him ... his dogs surptised a skunk!!!!
Symo Kurka: hi all
Pip Torok: hi symo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: really, Pip? lol ))
Arria Perreault: Hi Symo
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's hilarious!
Pip Torok: unless you are said dogs!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: Hi Sonja
Pip Torok: never mind it cd have been a porcupine!
Arria Perreault: Hi Jamie
Sonja Strom: Hi
Pip Torok: jamie symo JS will be 5 or so minutes late
Symo Kurka: ok
Symo Kurka: i'll have a smoke
SyyN Twilight: /afk
Jamie Palisades nods - heard, thanks, have been here for a while
Pip Torok: go ahead!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya Moon
Pip Torok: hi SyyN
Moon Adamant: hello all
Pip Torok: hi Moon
Arria Perreault: Hi Moon
Pip Torok: JS will be here shortly
Symo Kurka: Hello Miss Adamant
Moon Adamant: hello Mr. Kurka
Pip Torok: BTW JS asked me to "lead" the meeting ... ive decided to wait ... hope thats ok with you all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, btw... a nice local journalist is writing an article on using things like SL to promote democracy, and political agendas. She's not sure if her editor will publish the article, but she was fascinated when I told her about the CDS, so don't be too surprised if some newbie drops in asking a lot of questions...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're welcome to put all the blame on me
Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
Symo Kurka: great Gwyn
Sonja Strom: Good to know, Gwyn, thanks.
Arria Perreault: our tradition is to welcome them
Pip Torok: as long as she doesnt interrupt business ...
Symo Kurka: we send the newbie to TPP
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't even know her avatar's name! She was supposed to register this weekend
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Symo
Pip Torok: please!!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you're sooooo mean
Jamie Palisades: Pip, Arria,Sonja, was the plan that we would return to "monastery" or "webmaster" first after Justice returns, if he does?
Pip Torok: an idea ... put her onto the corresponding journalists at AA .. Drax ...
Pip Torok: webmaster then monastery ...
Object: Hello, Avatar!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Pip, that would be an idea)
Pip Torok: saves work!
Sonja Strom has indicated consent to be recorded.
Pip Torok: shall attend to it ...
Pip Torok: hallo Rose!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rose ) hi hi
Sonja Strom: hi Rose
Moon Adamant: hi rose
Rose Springvale: hi everyone.. sorry to interrupt!
Pip Torok: hi Rose JS is away momwntarily ...
Symo Kurka: HI Mrs Springvale
Arria Perreault: Hi Rose
Pip Torok: on personal business
Rose Springvale: ah!
Jamie Palisades: I am uncretain about how best to use our time,
Symo Kurka: play chess??
Sonja Strom: Apparently his dogs disturbed a skunk...
Rose Springvale: oh no
Pip Torok: i say we start in on the webmaster debate right now ...
Rose Springvale: tomato juice
Symo Kurka: what is a skunk??
Sonja Strom:
Rose Springvale: a little cat like creature of the forest
Symo Kurka: omg
Rose Springvale: that defends itself with scent
Pip Torok: be glad you dont know symo!
Rose Springvale: scent
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nasty smelly mammal
Rose Springvale: eh
Symo Kurka: i c
Symo Kurka: does he live in new york?
Sonja Strom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skunk
Rose Springvale: they are quite cute, and quilte lethal in their defending
Jamie Palisades: Big black rodent, white strips, shoots bad smelling liquid.
Symo Kurka: oh sonja
Rose Springvale: LOL
Symo Kurka: u all good teachers
Jamie Palisades sighs
Symo Kurka: long live the skunk
Pip Torok: ok then on with the Webmaster item ...
Pip Torok: who is presenting this?
Jamie Palisades: Justice will be able to read this transcript if he returns, so I am going to feel fre to make informal comments.
Sonja Strom: I like skunks however, it is best to leave them alone...
Pip Torok: ok ...
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault: In this box, I have put a notecard with my proposal
Moon Adamant: i too wish to speak if necessary
Jamie Palisades: Pip, Arria suggested it It is my belief that a VERY simple resolution, indicatig the RA's approval of a stiopend civil service position to manage and adminster the CDS web resources woudl be adequate.
Jamie Palisades: So let me raise my hand to speak after i've read arria's notecard.
Pip Torok: im not in a position to ok that without explicit agreement from the LRA
Jamie Palisades: hmm - sorry Arria: what box?
Jamie Palisades: not asking fro it
Sonja Strom: Hi Flyingroc
Jamie Palisades: we're informal at the moment
Arria Perreault: on the table
Moon Adamant: hi FR
Jamie Palisades: ah thanks
Flyingroc Chung: hi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the checkered one, to the right of the book with the constitution, on the table
Pip Torok: ok then go ahead
Arria Perreault: Hi Flyingroc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hiya FR )))
Pip Torok has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Hi, I am back now. SO sorry for the delay.
Justice Soothsayer: Give me a moment to scroll back
Sonja Strom: We understood Justice.
Arria Perreault: Hi Justice
Pip Torok: i hand over to you then <phew>
Sonja Strom: hahaa
Justice Soothsayer: Sorry about all that; three dogs encountering a skunk leads to unfortunate consequences for all
Flyingroc Chung: heh
Flyingroc Chung has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Justice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All fun!
Justice Soothsayer: so are we on Arria's proposal for a webmaster position
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Pip Torok: ("you shouldda seen the other fella!")
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, any comments?
Jamie Palisades: Yes , thanks, a few
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Jamie Palisades: Dropping a notecard on those present
Justice Soothsayer: about the webmaster, that is, not on skunks!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Jamie Palisades: Thanks, everyone should have a copy now of my edited version of Arria's latrest notecard.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh thank you
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, Jamie. I'll include it as follows for the transcript
Jamie Palisades: She and I completely agree on this - but I have inserted a few works to make it fit with other existign aspects of our practices -- mostly, the SC management of the Forums, which is statutory, and some cautions about not just changing things suddenly.
Justice Soothsayer: Arri'a proposal, with Jamie's proposed EDITS IN CAPS

tasks of the CDS Webmaster:

- to own any domain name in the name of CDS
EXECPT AS OTHERWISE PROVIDED BY CDS LAW [*1]
- to be contractor for the hosting
EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE PROVIDED BY CDS LAW [*1]
- to update the version of CONTENT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM [*2]
AS NEEDED, AFTER CONSULTATION WITH GOVERNMENTAL USERS, [*3*}
- TO insure THAT BACK-UP CONTENT AND THE PROTOCOLS USED TO MANAGE THE CONTENT MAKE migration another system REASONBLY EASY [*4}
- to create new design templates (with the help of a designer)
- to manage the user ACCOUNTS AND PASSWORDS.

The content is more the duty of PIO and Content Archivist (and some other people to define).

The CDS Webmaster belongs to the team of the Chancellor. It is hoped that this civil servant stays more than one term (like the treasurer). This position supposes some skill in Website administration. About salary, it must be as usual.

[*1] this repmits, for example, separate admin of the Forun
Justice Soothsayer: * end
Flyingroc Chung: sem to be missing the other footnotes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd just like to add a slight change of wording too, using "The Executive"instead of "The Team of the Chancellor"
Gwyneth Llewelyn prefers institutions to individuals.
Pip Torok: agree
Arria Perreault: agree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now it's pretty much the same thing hehe
Justice Soothsayer: Footnoted: [*1] this repmits, for example, separate admin of the Forunms, as our law provides.
[*2] Spelled out 'cms'
[*3] in other words, do';t unnecessarily change things, and talk about it first
[*4] migration is a question of avoiding lock-in, I believe
Arria Perreault: who are the governmental users?
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, thanks for adding the specifics
Flyingroc Chung: what does "as usual" mean for the salary?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: My only comment to Jamie's proposed changes is that I have no comments, they all seem pretty reasonable to me, they provide clarifying and some measure of avoiding potential conflicts... Arria, I don't know what you feel about those, but I'd be for approving Jamie's proposed changes...
Jamie Palisades: Roc:
Jamie Palisades: civil servant act
Jamie Palisades: standard deal for stiopened positions
Jamie Palisades: "as usual"
Flyingroc Chung: ah, ok
Arria Perreault: I have asked a question ....
Justice Soothsayer: I'll second Gwyn's acceptance of Jamie's changes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Arria's question is pertinent I'm assuming: "all users enabled by the civil servant act"?
Arria Perreault: who are the governmental users?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or "all members of governmental institutions"?
Justice Soothsayer: well, I think government users may also include the other branches of govt, such as an SC Archivist, if there ever is one.
Arria Perreault: it is not clear enough for me
Arria Perreault: Hi Bells
Bells Semyorka has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with Arria... Jamie, would you like to clarify? Are "Governmental Users" all members of all branches of Government and all civil servants?
Bells Semyorka: Hi Arria
Gwyneth Llewelyn waves to Bells too
Pip Torok: hi Bells
Justice Soothsayer: Hello Bells
Bells Semyorka: Morning everyone
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bells, we're discussing Arria's proposal for the webmaster
Jamie Palisades: I would think so, Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: her proposal is on the cube on the table... and Jamie's got a few proposed changes...
Bells Semyorka: wonderful thank you Gwyn
Jamie Palisades: all branches of government are 'power users' of our web resources
Jamie Palisades drops notecard on Bells
Arria Perreault: it could be a long list, as NGO managers could have also an access ...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, in that case, "Government Users" would just be members of government (RA; Executive; SC) but not civil servants, is that your proposal?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, exactly, Arria...
Jamie Palisades: hm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And who knows, we might outsource the content one day to journalists and independent contractors too...
Jamie Palisades: I thik we have to assum ethat NGO needs are spoken for by the government
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so Members of Government.
Jamie Palisades: so Gwyn if you wish to sharpen this usp -
Jamie Palisades: "the three branches of government"?
Arria Perreault: yes, I agree with Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I think Arria's point is that we have semi-governmental positions, as well as civil servants, and we should just clarify who really will have a saying in this.
Arria Perreault: The RA will have to approve any project of migration or change in the corporate design
Jamie Palisades smiles
Jamie Palisades: .. and raises his hand
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with "just government members" (plenty of opportunity to review changes that way!)
Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes now
Justice Soothsayer: jump on in Jamie
Arria Perreault: it is clear that civil servants will prepare the project and find the best options
Jamie Palisades: with respect, ladies and getlemen, I disagree that the RA should become an operational executive approving software and design issues...
Jamie Palisades: Not really what our constiutio - or any government I know - has in mind ...
Jamie Palisades: .. but rather, I was suggestion ..
Jamie Palisades: suggeting ...
Justice Soothsayer: consultation good, micromanagement bad.
Jamie Palisades: .. that the users - as in, Publius who posts a lot, Justice who posts a lot, Claude, etc
Jamie Palisades: have a stake
Flyingroc Chung: I agree with Jaime, if the RA disagrees with the executive, we could just draw up some bill...
Jamie Palisades: and anythign the webmaster wants to do should be disussed first -
Jamie Palisades: - in terms of needs and assessments, not formal approvals
Jamie Palisades: exactly Roc.
Arria Perreault: as it will be always connected with budget, the RA will have to approve in any case ....
Arria Perreault: so ...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just the budget... not the proposal...
Jamie Palisades: But if we need to change ISPs suddenly I do not want to wait for RA quorum let webmaster proposed it and chancellor approve it - and then you can cruicfy us if wrong, at lesiure
Sonja Strom: lol
Arria Perreault: yes, but if we find the solution, we can stop the project by noti givig the money ...
Bells Semyorka:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha yes
Jamie Palisades: Absoluyetly right RA can always but off funds
Rose Springvale: brb folks.. stalking potential citizens
Jamie Palisades: *cut off
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I see. In that case, "Government Users" would basically be just the Executive really....
Sonja Strom: bye Rose!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rose, have fun!
Arria Perreault: bye Rose
Justice Soothsayer: happy stalking!
Jamie Palisades: Gwyn , my view was 'heads of branches', FWIW
Jamie Palisades: (go get 'em Ms PIO)
Flyingroc Chung: Well, gwyn, it's "consultation," not formal approval.
Jamie Palisades: and the action verb for that noun was 'consult' not 'veto'
Justice Soothsayer: So is everyone comfortable with Jamie's revisions?
Pip Torok: yes
Arria Perreault: can you give the whole expression again?
Jamie Palisades: (just in case we even have branches who do not automatically work together - best to have the law say that the webnaster needs to consult all of them before systems change)
Jamie Palisades answers Arria ...
Jamie Palisades: I think we have the notecard I sent PLUS ...
Jamie Palisades: delete 'government users' ..
Jamie Palisades: ..and replace with 'heads of each branch of govenment' ..
Jamie Palisades: .. and the OTHER existing laws about civil servants fill in the rest. Not so?
Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with that.
Justice Soothsayer: so in lieu of "about salary.. as usual..." we would say "Terms of employment are subject tot eh Civil Service Act"?
Arria Perreault: we can write it in the text
Flyingroc Chung: actually I was just reading that
Flyingroc Chung: I dont see anything about salary in the civil service act
Flyingroc Chung: oh wait, vm
Flyingroc Chung: nvm
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Flyingroc Chung: "Civil service positions are established by legislative action by the RA and appointed civil servants may receive compensation provided by the Neufreistadt-CDS budget"
Jamie Palisades: makes sense to me, Justice, FWIW
Arria Perreault: I propose to replace "about salary ...usual" by Terms of employment are subject to the Civil Service Act".
Jamie Palisades: roc, we also have statutes I thnk that fix it at L$1000/mo/ position
Pip Torok: seconded
Jamie Palisades: (see postinds in exec branch announce forum for civil servant position stuff generally)
Arria Perreault: ok for Flyingroc's proposal
Justice Soothsayer: OK. Are you ready to vote on this as amended?
Pip Torok: i am
Arria Perreault: i am (is there any exact version)?
Justice Soothsayer: droppoing revised version on all
Bells Semyorka: thank you Jami
Bells Semyorka: jamie
Arria Perreault: ty
Pip Torok: tks
Justice Soothsayer: OK, the vote is on the proposal as amended. RA members, please state your vote.
Gwyneth Llewelyn is ready to vote too ? thank you for the revision
Gwyneth Llewelyn votes aye!
Arria Perreault: aye
Flyingroc Chung: aye
Bells Semyorka: aye
Pip Torok votes aye
Justice Soothsayer votes Aye
Justice Soothsayer: The proposal as amended is adopted.
Jamie Palisades: Thank you again on behalf of the executive branch for this useful proposal Arria.
Jamie Palisades: I wish to inform you all that tentatively Alexicon Kurka has agreed to fill the position.
Arria Perreault: Thank you very. With this bill, we can say that the Portal project is now achieved
Jamie Palisades: and will confirm that to the forums when he and I chat next
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Jamie. You work quickly.
Arria Perreault: Alexicon is the best person to fill this position
Justice Soothsayer: NExt item on the agenda is the proposed purchase of a "void" sim to relocate the Monastery. Arria, it's your proposal, so would you like to address this?
Arria Perreault: I have suggested to Jamie to describe all other civil servants positions
Arria Perreault: I think that Webmaster is a model
Arria Perreault: and this has not to be done in one day
Arria Perreault: I can say some words about the Monastery project
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please do )
Arria Perreault: I have published several versions of my proposal in the forums
Arria Perreault: The Monastery has one year of existence
Arria Perreault: we have started its building before the opening of AM
Arria Perreault: we had sevral exhibitions there
Arria Perreault: I would like to develop our activities and also have some synergies with CDS expansion
Arria Perreault: in the GMP, we have several places for void sims
Arria Perreault: I have imagined that one of these void sims could be used for the Monastery
Arria Perreault: thinking of this project, I have also thought that we can insure financial future of the Monastery with this solution
Arria Perreault: It is also in my opinion a wise use for void sims, in relation with NGO
Arria Perreault: this project could be a model for other NGO
Arria Perreault: all the conception of the project is so that CDS doesn't have any financial risk to take
Arria Perreault: we can win several new and creative citizen
Arria Perreault: have a new sim
Arria Perreault: and have the possibility to promote CDS and the Monastery on a better way
Justice Soothsayer: Arria, is the Monastery's status as an NGO relevant? I mean, couldn't some other citizen group also ask for us to purchase a void sim and agree to fully pay for it?
Arria Perreault: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 148#p12148
Arria Perreault: I think that ist is relevant, because awe have some goals
Sonja Strom: Justice, by that you mean a citizens group that is not an NGO?
Jamie Palisades notes that he has comments from the executive branch that *may* cover some of these points, when the RA wishes to hear them.
Arria Perreault: but the project of buying a void sim could be done by a group of merchants
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, sonja.
Arria Perreault: it is not the case here
Jamie Palisades: (completely agree -- anyone could propose .. under the PD Act )
Arria Perreault: we are and we act as an NGO
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do we still have the silly limitation that citizens cannot own more than 4096 m2 in the CDS? Because 'requiring' a chartered institution to own land under this model would be a nice way to sidestep the issue:D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and I mean it in a positive way! I like the model as proposed!)
Bells Semyorka: Gwyn, I noticed that wording was still used on the covants in LA
Justice Soothsayer: Arria, are you finished? If so, Jamie may jump in.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, me too, Bells.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, I'll hush and let Jamie talk lol
Jamie Palisades: (Gwyn, the bizarre group exceptiosn to this utterly render any covenants on limited aggregation meaningless)
Sonja Strom: Gwyn, my understanding is that limitation was 'per sim'... but I will try to find it.
Arria Perreault: I am finished for now
Jamie Palisades: (Mine too Sonja)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Arria!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully per sim, Sonja...at some point it wasn't though
Moon Adamant: the 4096 limitation in LA covenants was set to match the existing other covenants
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Moon Adamant: so not to create an exception
Jamie Palisades waits for ther LRA's nod
Sonja Strom: Originally I think it was written for NFS... when there was only the one sim.
Moon Adamant: of course, this RA is sovereign to remove that limitation
Justice Soothsayer nods
Jamie Palisades: heh
Jamie Palisades: Let's start with noting that we are grateful to Arria, as I said some weeks ago now, for bringign us a creative and possibly very attractive proposal.
Jamie Palisades: My views have been posted and summarized on the forums, most lately here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 148#p12147
They've not been updated since Arria's new information and corrections this morning, though. In summary, I think this is a good idea ... that we neverthleless MUST fit into our legal framework ... which requies attention to a few specific points.
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: Now, I must apologize to Arria for not being able to handle communication about this in a manner that she finds satisfactory. I'm sorry to have disappointed you, Arria, and believe you are acting in the best interests of CDS by bringing us a good proposal that is positive, and ought to be able to work. ...
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: Please note that I suggested, in the forums last month and at the RA's last meeting, that this appears to be a Private Development Act plan. I repeated that in my posting yesterday, and Arria has explained in today's posting that she disagrees, here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 148#p12148
Jamie Palisades: so that will give us a bit of work here, to define it correctly.
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: Arria and I seem not to have reached complete agreement on three open matters.
I suspect each requires discussion.
Let me just name them for the RA, then surrender the "microphone":
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: 1. I thought the Monastery was going to be a seventh paid parcel. Arria has corrected me, and it is her proposal that instead the six paid parcels fund the void sim, and the Monastery would be on public land and pay no rental local tier. (Note there are several policy issues for us here.) ...
Jamie Palisades: I don;t regard that as fatal - just diferent than our current practices, and so in need of policy disussion.
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: Other NGOs might have views too
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: 2. Arria also corrected me this morning by indicating that this proposal is NOT made under the PD Act. Our three staturoty methods for adding sims each have some safeguards for CDS in them. We need to clarify which is being invokes here - and then confirm that the safeguards are present. My concern is how CDS will adequately protect against the small risk of a failed project. (I believe we can work that out, by the way.) ...
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: finally,
Jamie Palisades: 3. Finally, Arria points out that this proposal must conform to the General Master Plan, which of course is correct. However, that only occurs if the government (using the Guild) in some way confirms the sim's terrain and parcelization plans as compatible and feasible within CDS. Each of our three existing sim expansion methods provides a method for this. WHen I ask that we fit this proposal into one. my core concern is this: understing HOW the Guild, executive and legislative branches will be provided with our usual opporunities to confirm those 'fit' and 'feasibility' issues prior to final contract commitment by CDS to Linden Labs.
Jamie Palisades: .. thanks.
Moon Adamant raises hand
Justice Soothsayer: Moon?
Moon Adamant: To adress Jamie's last point
Moon Adamant: the Monastery plan as defined abstractly is coherent with the GMP
Moon Adamant: since it will occupy a low density sim in the GMP grid
Moon Adamant: so that is, in the NG' view, a non-issue
Jamie Palisades nods - ut we usually see a map and a parcel/rent spreadsheet before a 'commit'
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Jamie Palisades: and if this were a PD Act plan there'd be an explicit review loop
Moon Adamant: yes, but the Guild has limited resources
Moon Adamant: and before we have a political decision
Jamie Palisades: the law makes it my problem as chancellor, Moon with mandated consultation with BAC as available
Moon Adamant: it would be hasty to commit resources to the drawing of a plan
Jamie Palisades: +I do;t think arria wand plannig to demand that the guild draw a plabn - but rather was goign to provide one from her group - but that's a question for her
Symo Kurka: does Arria have a plan?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I make just a suggestion? From what I read in the forums, the proposal is ALMOST compliant to the Private Development Act, except on some minor points (which do have a huge impact, I agree ? mostly, financial and aesthetical). Arria, isn't there a way to reconcile your proposal with the PD Act? In a way that is quick, and does not tie resources etc...?
Arria Perreault: I have started to work on a map, yes
Moon Adamant: i agree with Gwyneth
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn, I agree. It would be nice to accomplish this without needing any further enabling legislation.
Arria Perreault: I don't want to fall under this Act
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be my point, yes, Justice.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
Moon Adamant: no legislation is written on stone, perhaps we can try and subtly adapt the PD Act to encompass situations like Monastery and other NGOs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it's not "you", Arria ? it would be teh Monastery NGO.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Moon... let me see... and please correct me if I'm wrong, I might miss some things here...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's assume that mmmh... we have a map
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then the BAC can work with it.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And let's assume that the Monastery NGO pays 4 months of tier in advance.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Would that be enough for compliance?
Moon Adamant: i would have to re-read the act
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (oh, i just noticed I've copied Jamie's questions from the forum... yes, sorry, Jamie, you asked basically the same)
Arria Perreault: but why?
Moon Adamant: it's last term's - and i have a short-term memory
Arria Perreault: I will pay hem in any case
Jamie Palisades: Gwyn, I think so also. .
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Why"? Just to make sure we don't have exceptions to the law, Arria
Arria Perreault: for AM or LA, how we did?
Jamie Palisades: ut tere's still a terraform/landscape/plot size/plot rent review in there somewhere.
Jamie Palisades: Ladies and gentlemen, if this were a "conventional" sim start, the one I call metod #1, like we used for AM and LA, then the map & numbers woukd require government approval before void purchase. The PD Act shortcuts that by letting the developer terraform and landscape before any review .. but only has CDS accept sim estate ownership after the approval
Moon Adamant: LA and AM were compliant with the laws extant at the time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes.
Jamie Palisades: right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was a different model really ? "core CDS expansion", no need for an umbrella organisation to promote the expansion in LA and AM
Arria Perreault: I can provide any map quickly
Moon Adamant: the question is not a map?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We *could* do that for the 5th sim though it would be so much easier... hehe
Moon Adamant: the question is a question of frameworks
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Moon
Arria Perreault: I will have to promote the Monatsry
Moon Adamant: we have something - the PD Act - that is an attempt to pass as a framework
Arria Perreault: and if I don't succedd, I pay the fees ...
Jamie Palisades: let's try to make this simple I think we are MOSTLY there except for a few details. Arria: permit me to ask a question. What part of the Private Develpmen Act do you not want to use?
Moon Adamant: we suddenly notice that perhaps it is not complete in that function
Moon Adamant: so, we change the PD Act so that it can framewrok the new situation
Moon Adamant: am i correct or am i wrong?
Jamie Palisades: (it is complete in my view Moon if it's complied with.)
Gwyneth Llewelyn has actually to agree with jamie... it's also complete in my view...
Sonja Strom is unable to find the PD Act or the laws that regulate maximum land ownership by one citizen.
Arria Perreault: I don't see why I should pay tier in advance, if I buy plots and pay fees in any cases
Arria Perreault: I resell the plots after
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... so that would indicate the new sim would, indeed, fall under the PD act, and that mandates the pre-payment
Jamie Palisades: (for sonja: the "Private Development" rules. See here for a summary of those rules: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2067 The law itself is here: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=217 )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least one of the models in the PD act (there are three, right?)
Moon Adamant: ys
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But there are other possible models
Arria Perreault: why not a normal sim?
Arria Perreault: I don't see the problem, sorry ...
Moon Adamant: Arra, again, it's not a question of a normal or void sim, map or no map
Arria Perreault: I cannot buy the sim myself
Arria Perreault: it is a void sim
Moon Adamant: it's a question that we don't have to hold this discussion everytime a sim is added to the territory
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria, see http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=217 - Model 2. (where the CDS buys the sim on the developer's behalf)
Arria Perreault: CDS intented to buy voids sims in any cases
Arria Perreault: this is a wise use
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "donate sufficient money to the CDS estate owner to allow the CDS to acquire a sim that within two sim-spaces from the CDS and to pay tier on that sim for four months;"
Moon Adamant: thus streamlining our decision processes and expansion
Moon Adamant: but we can0t do that if every sim is an exception
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Model 1 is teh one youb have in mind, buying your own sim. Which, as we know, is not what the Monastery will do, sincethe group can't buy a void sim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry for teh typos
Arria Perreault: yes
Arria Perreault: Model 1, normal preocess
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the way I see it... the proposal fits QUITE nicely in the Model 2 of Private Development (I'm asuming the map as granted, it's quite a minor detail really)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Model 1 is quite different, Arria!...
Justice Soothsayer: OK, my sense is that this discussion has been helpful, but we really need Jamie and Arria to reconcile matters so that the void sim purchase could occur under existing laws.
Justice Soothsayer: MY suggestion is that we table this for one more meeting to give them time to do so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, both indicated they didn't have the chance to talk...
Moon Adamant: i ould like to suggest to the RA and to the debaters on this matter that small alterations in the POD act may be fruitful so we don't get stuck
Arria Perreault: I am sorry but I am talking about this project sinces moths
Arria Perreault: months*
Moon Adamant: PD Act*
Justice Soothsayer: I am very supportive of NGOs using CDS's authority to purchase void sims to add to our territory; I'd like to see that happen through the existing channels.
Arria Perreault: if people know so well how the law is, why they don't help me to make a good proposal ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I thought that what was what happening already, so I was quite happy to see it happen that way!
Arria Perreault: the normal way is the best ..
Arria Perreault: I don't see any argument agaimnst
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well it's a wonderful proposal
Arria Perreault: we have built AM and LA so
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh... no no
Arria Perreault: why not the Monastery?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: AM & LA were totally different, they weren't part of any private development
Arria Perreault: I don't want a priate development
Arria Perreault: private*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhh but then it's even easier...
Arria Perreault: this is also a political position for me
Arria Perreault: the Monaetry is public in the mind of many people
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... this is really going back months again...
Arria Perreault: If we let it as private, we take the risk to see it one day gone
Arria Perreault: because people are tired
Gwyneth Llewelyn: My *first* thought is that this would be just a regular, CDS-promoted project for a new sim, with 6 plots for sale on a void sim, and a Monastery in public land.
Arria Perreault: yes
Pip Torok: agree
Flyingroc Chung: in this case the monastery NGO does not have to do anything?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly. Nothing at all.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither does Arria
Moon Adamant: so the true question lies in the nature of the monastery
Arria Perreault: I can imagine to use PD ACt for a project like Nea Hora
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it'll be put on public land, Moon ? similar to, say the MoCA
Moon Adamant: if it is public, then the normal process is followed
Arria Perreault: but not for the Monastery
Moon Adamant: if it is private, PD applies
Moon Adamant: right?
Moon Adamant: that's what needs definition
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I totally agree, Arria... I never talked much about it though, because I thought that the Monastery group really wished to insist to enter the land business etc. (the whole point of the PD act) and do it on their own, which is often far quicker than what the CDS does for "public sims"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, yes, in a nutshell
JonyBlade Codesmith: agreed it HITS things
Rose Springvale: why is it going sideways.. sigh
Arria Perreault: we had a debate at the time of AM to have a public building
Arria Perreault: at that time, it was not possible
Arria Perreault: we have decided to raise funds to buy land for it
Arria Perreault: but today I think that the Monastery has its place on public land
Arria Perreault: because it contributes to the image of CDS and develop activities
Arria Perreault: some of them are successfull
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most definitely!!!
Moon Adamant: but if it is public, then it must follow the public process....
Moon Adamant: plan by NG, etc
Arria Perreault: and we can continue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I'd suggest in that case that we go through the public process... the "Monastery sim" would just be a regular sim, like the other four...
Arria Perreault: yes , definitely public
Moon Adamant: ok, things are a lot clearer now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The RA would only need to approve the budget for the 5th sim... the rest is standard procedure
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There would be no need for exceptional legislation.
Jamie Palisades: Agreed: We are only trying to find the rights law framework here, not making a general abstract comment about 'public' or 'private'. A "private development' STILL BECOMES CDS public land when it is complete. I was in ANY case expecting to suggest we spend some of our reserves on scenic voice -- to add to our attractiveness -- as you know -- and this seems no more risky that than. Less, in fact. ...
Arria suggests that four months tier is not needed. OK. Two options.

(1) It fits under the PD Act, except for two things. So? waive them. (a) The 4-month advance part of the PD Act was insurance against CDS taking delivery of an unrentable or quickly-failed sim, and then being stuck with the USD tier fees to linden labs. To be fair to her, she is proposing to fully rent the parcels, instead, to reduce our risk. (b) Once we see a table of plarcels and proposed rents, we'd be in a position to fully assess that risk. So, unlike the PD Act, we can require that we receive that PRIOR to purchase, to pre
Arria Perreault: and I am ready to prepare any document for this approval
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since you *already* have a project (it even defines number of plots!), I've seen even some tier fee proposals on the forums... and shortly there will be a map too... well... that's practically everything
Jamie Palisades:
Moon Adamant: ok
Jamie Palisades: ...
Moon Adamant: i must go to prepare the NG meeting


Jamie Palisades: (b) Once we see a table of plarcels and proposed rents, we'd be in a position to fully assess that risk. So, unlike the PD Act, we can require that we receive that PRIOR to purchase, to pre-assess its feasibility.
..
(2) Approve, as Gwyn said, like we did LA and AM. (We end up in the same place -- have to see map and rent parcelization first. But as Moon asaid, more work for Guld that way. Which Moon wsays we may not be able to sustain quickly.)
Moon Adamant: which i remember all present starts at 11
Moon Adamant: thank you all
Flyingroc Chung: sorry guys, I gtg.
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, do you have the authority you need from the RA to move ahead with this once you are satisfied it complies with our procedures?
Moon Adamant waves and goes to the School
Justice Soothsayer: Or do you think we need to provide our blessing?
Sonja Strom: bye FR
Pip Torok: bye FR!
Gwyneth Llewelyn is happy to provide the blessing for the project to go ahead as any other regular sim, and avoid any special legislation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean a vote... not a blessing... lol
Sonja Strom: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blessings don't carry much weight here
Pip Torok: lol
Jamie Palisades: justice -
Gwyneth Llewelyn would make a sarcastic comment at this point about other communities where blessings might have some power, but remembers that jamie sits behind her and shuts her big mouth
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: yes, I think so, but will in any case require coming back here with notice of arri's more details map/plan
Jamie Palisades: *arria's more detailed map/plan
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who decides the level of detail required? Isn't it the BAC?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: AH ? no, sorry
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's the Chancellor.
Jamie Palisades: blessing from RA comes after plan on the altar and really only requires notice - giving you the chance to stop it - not affirmative act
Arria Perreault: can some give me the list of each required document?
Justice Soothsayer: OK, I think we have made some progress. Let us move forward with the hopes that Jamie and Arria will come back with a map and plan for our approval at our next meeting.
Jamie Palisades: I will, Arria, but essentially it is a drawm map, a set of parcel sizes, and a list of rent rates and initial purchase prices for parcelss
Jamie Palisades: Moon did I miss somethign? I will send her links as well
Jamie Palisades: and
Jamie Palisades: RA will still need to confirm the novelty of an NGO on public land, right?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria, I'd say, this would fall under NL 8-2 "In-Theme" Expansion Act http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=214
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's not a novelty,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have the NG and the MoCA
Sonja Strom: hm, Jamie, are you sure about that? What about the School?
Jamie Palisades: NG pays tier
Arria Perreault: to resume, we follow the normal process like AM or LA?
Jamie Palisades: no?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The MoCA doesn't
Jamie Palisades: hm
Jamie Palisades: gwyn the law says they do will check
Jamie Palisades: um
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The NG does, yes
Sonja Strom: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: NL? 3-6 http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=nl3_6
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *NL 3-6 MoCA Act
Arria Perreault: to resume, do we follow the normal process like AM or LA for the Monastery void?
Jamie Palisades: 'normal process' , smile -
Arria Perreault: thank you very much
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would certainly suggest to do so (note to LRA: that would be a motion waiting for a second )
Pip Torok: seconded
Justice Soothsayer: OK
Jamie Palisades: Arria, now that you have clarified how you want this handled, that is the path we will attempt, and the only issues will be feasibility , scenic fit and rentability
Jamie Palisades: ay I ask what if any action is proposed to betaken? and whetehr it's premature to do so?
Gwyneth Llewelyn likes swift motion, so I'd suggest that we vote on:
Jamie Palisades: (and my apologies, but I also must leave in a moment)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) A motion to expand to the 5th sim using NL 8-2 (in-theme expanson act)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and then 2) Decide on the preliminaries, which requires a vote of the RA. Eg: a) a void b) placed to the south of LA
Jamie Palisades: Ra can do anythign gwyn. NO ONE has assesed this project against that law. I wouldn;t APPROVE before you haev plans on table.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and c) commision the NG to draft the plan for the Chancellor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie...
Jamie Palisades: and I see that if you use NL 8-2 it is the RA not the executive who decides, grin
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, my proposal, jamie,
Jamie Palisades: and you want to comison the guild to do somethign moon just said they donlt have time for
Gwyneth Llewelyn: is to sidestep the issue of "fitting the Monastery group's plan" into the PD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and do regular expansion, according to 8-2
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right?
Jamie Palisades: I liked this better when it was bring back a final plan at next meeting, so we have somethign to discuss, rankly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's teh motion on the table.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I'll handle Moon )
Jamie Palisades: If you are moving to aprpove the plan now, with no paper on it, I respectfulyl disagree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Quoting NL 8-2...
Justice Soothsayer: Handling Moon is a handful, Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: FIRST the RA approves it on general terms,
Jamie Palisades: if you are movivng to recommend that it be submitted using 8-2, well, I have not read ti with that in mind if you feel that your 15 minutes of reading it satisfgies you, the RA can do whatever it wants
Gwyneth Llewelyn: THEN the plan is designed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah sure,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: please read it.
Jamie Palisades: what commitment woudl topday's motion create. Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Entering what 8-2 calls "Preparation Phase":
Jamie Palisades: Yes - I will rad it not i the next 42 seconda befroe I must leave, though, it having been menbtioned - um - 7 mnites ago for the first time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In this phase the RA would decide where the new sim(s) would be built in the overall regional masterplan. The RA would commission the New Guild to produce a rough plan for the new sim(s) following broad guidelines laid down by the RA for (i) the rough number of plots (ii) the range of sizes of plots (iii) price and affordability (iv) single/double prim (v) rough balance between public, private and commercial land (vi) any specific public builds e.g. the ampitheatre (vii) any other infrastructure that can serve the interest of the community and territory.
Arria Perreault: we can vote todaday on the general idea and later of the budget
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria, exactly.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The idea is not to stall the process. Because PLAN comes on stage TWO
Sonja Strom raises hand
Justice Soothsayer: Sonja?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Decision about the 5th sim ? if we decide to do it at all ? is BEFORE that.
Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes
Sonja Strom: I have always been in favor of the CDS having some open spaces, and it seems these are best acheived in SL by the use of what we are calling "void sims." Although it is clear details remain to be worked out for this expansion, I believe in spirit it is a well-designed concept that would be beneficial for our community. For this project I have a couple of suggestions, as I'm sure lots of us have, but I would like to see it receive the RA's approval on general terms.
Arria Perreault: and the Guild will not have to do all the work, only to give some help
Jamie Palisades waves to those who feel better able than himself to make such detailed legal analysis on the fly, caustiions against adoptiiong motions with unexplored conseuqences, and resctfulyl takes his leave. I am a supporter of the project, Please jkeep any approval CONTINGENT on a later approveal from SOMEONE . APoliogies.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the way I read 8-2, Sonja, "agreeing with the general terms" is basically voting for launching the 5th sim officially, and moving that it enters the Preparation Phase
Arria Perreault: yes, I am not asking for more now
Justice Soothsayer: Let me try to summarize:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Notice that the Preparation Phase requires a lot of input from Guild, Chancellor, etc ? but Arria has done a lot of homework. Most of the questions on the preparation phase have been answered!
Justice Soothsayer: 1) The RA supports the idea of acquiring a 5th sim, which would be a void sim next to AM.
Arria Perreault: I engage also myself to open the project to the sugegstions of interested people
Justice Soothsayer: 2) The RA also supports the idea of the Monastery occupying public land on said void sim.
Justice Soothsayer: 3) We want to see a map and detailed financials before final approval
Justice Soothsayer: Fair enough?
Arria Perreault: yes
Sonja Strom: Justice, I think that sounds good.
Pip Torok: IMO yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is "final approval", Justice?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is a question for clarification....
Sonja Strom: true, good point Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: because 8-2 establishes that a lot has to be done before "final approval" is granted. Nevertheless, invoking 8-2 is a political decision by the RA; this is all I'm suggesting that we vote upon.
Justice Soothsayer: Actually approving the purchase of the sim, Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 8-2 has FOUR phases
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's a loooong way off, Justice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The vote today is just that we're allowed to enter Phase I, preparation!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Phase II: PURCHASE
On the basis of the report from the Executive, the RA would decide whether to continue with the project or not.
Pip Torok: exactly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So right now we just say: "ok we want a 5th sim. Let's prepare. Let's charter the NG to provide us with something we can discuss. Let the Chancellor review it. Let a study and analysis be done"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And THEN.... after that is done... comes Phase II,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: where the RA then votes to buy the sim or not.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the NG (or Arria individually, under the NG's approval) cannot do anything before the RA officially gives their political approval to start the whiole process.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's what I'm suggesting now Vote to approve to START the whole process AND charter teh NG to talk with Arria, fleshen out the plan, and submit it to the Chancellor for the next stage.
Justice Soothsayer: OK folks, guild meeting starting momentarily. Are you ready to vote on Gwyn's motion?
Pip Torok: yes
Arria Perreault: I am ready
Sonja Strom: may I still vote? lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure
Sonja Strom: (kidding)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Bells Semyorka: lo sonja
Bells Semyorka: *lol
Justice Soothsayer: OK, the question is on Gwyn;s motion to approve starting planning for a 5th sim (a void sim) pursuant to NL 8-2. All in favor?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye!
Pip Torok votes Aye
Bells Semyorka: No
Arria Perreault: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes aye
Justice Soothsayer: Motion carries.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay
Justice Soothsayer: Anything further before we adjourn?
Arria Perreault: thank you very muc
Arria Perreault: much
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just a friendly reminder to the Guild that it's the RA's will that they start to look at things
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually mmh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria, you can help quite a lot
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The next step is for the Guild to provide a plan
Arria Perreault: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to produce a rough plan for the new sim(s) following broad guidelines laid down by the RA for (i) the rough number of plots (ii) the range of sizes of plots (iii) price and affordability (iv) single/double prim (v) rough balance between public, private and commercial land (vi) any specific public builds e.g. the ampitheatre (vii) any other infrastructure that can serve the interest of the community and territory.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You have almost all of that ready.
Arria Perreault: we have also some builders at the Monastery ..
Arria Perreault: yes
Justice Soothsayer: I have to leave, so lets move the planning discussion offline, please.
Justice Soothsayer: Any other business?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry ? you're right
Sonja Strom: Thanks everybody.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria, let's go over to the Guild and pester Moon )))
Arria Perreault: thank you
Pip Torok: lol !!
Arria Perreault: yes
Justice Soothsayer: I'll move we adjourn.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Pip Torok: second
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seconds the motion to adjourn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: too late lol
Arria Perreault: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but aye on adjourning!
Justice Soothsayer: Without objection, we are adjourned.
The meeting closed at 11:14 Linden time.