Al Andalus

[Ranma Tardis]

I am truly sorry, was against this in the past, am against it now and will be against this in the future!
Am an educated person and understand that Sharia Law is more than just custom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia.
The danger is making one set of law for one group and another for a different group. There needs to be one law in the land. Expansion is no justification
I was and still am against the Roman Sims, just look at them and they are at least 1/2 or more empty. I did a little survey last night and will not be fooled by empty land owned by the public group and not for sale.
I do not wish to be cover by Islamic law and do not wish to support a government that does.
Will support a religion neutral government. The Sharia Law is bound to be enforced sooner or latter or why bother making Sims with such a theme? The countries that use such laws are oppressive places, which have no tolerance for other groups.
This is my "fantasy" world and not "nightmare" world. It is a basic freedom to associate with people of like-minded thinking and not to be force to accommodate others. These people forcing me to do what their religious law prescribes.
I know what is going to happen because the "elite" of the CDS will get tougher and make a vote changing the constitution and public laws and force their view on the others. This has happened before and seems it will happen again.
Seems I really messed up coming back *frowns*
How about I pay to detach the CN and LA Sims from neuf and alpine or perhaps all residents who do not like this simply leave the CDS? I can provide funding for a new Bavarian theme sim.
The CDS has a history of forcing the view to leave because they will not be forced to do the will of the "majority. Think about this for all of its wrongs the United States has protection for the minority from the majority. One of these is the constitution is hard very hard to change upon the whim of a few. The Republicans even though a minority still have a certain veto power. Being "tolerant" is not letting oneself get pushed around, bullied, etc.
Having a religion neutral government is a CORE belief of mine and nothing is going to change this.

Think about this for all of its wrongs the United States has protection for the minority from the majority. One of these is the constitution is hard very hard to change upon the whim of a few. The Republicans even though a minority still have a certain veto power. Being "tolerant" is not letting oneself get pushed around, bullied, etc.
Having a religion neutral government is a CORE belief of mine and nothing is going to change this.

[Sonja Strom]

Ranma, believe me, I also have no interest in living in an area of SL governed by Sharia Law. Anybody who knows me well can attest to this.

Also believe me when I say the Al Andalus sims are not governed by Sharia Law, so Sharia Law is not a relevant issue in this conversation.

[Cindy Ecksol]

Ranma and Timo,

I wonder where you got the idea that Al Andalus was a) run as an islamic state, or b) was a religious sim. Neither of these are true. It is simply a democracy. It is architecturally based on 13th century Granada, Spain. It was founded on the ideals of peaceful coexistence of different cultures. In operation, we embrace that concept. Not islamic law, nor judeo-christian law, but the principles of democracy outlined in this thread.

I'm also a member of both communities and have been a resident of Al Andalus since not long after the opening. It's certainly not a religious sim, except in the sense that Christians, Muslims and Jews all feel comfortable showing up there and identifying themselves as such. It's not an "Islamic state" if by that one means that Islamic principles and law control what happens there as in our modern versions of "Islamic states." It's not yet a true democracy because we haven't gotten as far as holding elections or even to figuring out what officers we might need no less how we would go about choosing them. It's more along the lines of what's envisioned by the Convenvincia Institute (which has its headquarters in Al Andalus now), a "state" run by consensus of the individuals involved.

In any case, whatever Al Andalus is, it is definitely compatible with whatever CDS is. I agree with Sonja that the ideas being poked at in Al Andalus would be an interesting and helpful adjunct to the development of CDS. And CDS has structure that could help Al Andalus develop productively. I would definitely be in favor of moving in the direction of joining the two communities, perhaps just informally at first, but with an eye towards a physical joining some time in the future.

CIndy

[Ranma Tardis]

Am deeply sorry but can not accept that as an answer. Sharia Law is a very important to the history and custom of this culture. It will start in small things and become stronger and stronger as time passes.
There is no good reason for Al Andalus to be a part of the CDS. I would think the culture and it is a non democratic one would be better off joining Caledon. It is ruled by our betters because we are not good enough to decide for ourselves.
Why would this sim theme fit a democratic one? There is noting in there customs that would allow for such. I am placing the following as a reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
I have come as far as the constitution and allow but will NEVER accept being a part of this government. I just would not feel comfortable in such an environment and would rather eat naito than visit Al Andalus.
If this comes about maybe I can make a new Neaultenburg a sort of doubleganger. Very German ;)Then again I am 1/2 German and have a noble name and title if wish to use such. My ancestors lived in the castle of Herdringen.
Again I am truly sorry but will not accept being part of this theme. I am also sorry for returning and turning over the pot.

[Rose Springvale]

article 1 from the Al Andalus Estate covenant:

1. Freedom of Speech

Any person or group may express ideas and opinions without fear of retribution, harassment or exclusion. Debate and discussion between citizens with traditionally opposing beliefs is the heart of Al Andalus. Many of the subjects will carry with them intense emotions. As we look for acceptance, understanding and even change, our goal is to provide a safe environment where such topics can be explored, and ask simply that all citizens govern themselves responsibly. If a topic or the direction of discussion is too intense, take a break or change the subject and revisit when passions have cooled. The Estate Owners reserve the right to use whatever means at their disposal to assure compliance.

Protests are protected speech. The time, place and manner of a protest may be limited to protect other avatar’s rights.

Slander, libel, hate speech (such as racial, ethnic, religious or gender slurs), griefing, scamming, fraud, harassment, including any attempt to discover real life identities, and "stalking" are NOT protected speech. Avatars engaging in such activities will be summarily banned and referred to the judicial body if they wish to appeal. Until a judicial body is established, the decision of the Estate Managers will control.

[Sonja Strom]

I just would not feel comfortable in such an environment and would rather eat naito than visit Al Andalus.

What is naito?

[Ranma Tardis]

naito is a somewhat bitter fermented bean product from Japan.
YUCK! suppose to go along well with heavy drinking or something like that.
It is somewhat old fasion.
I am not against heavy drinking Think it makes it easier for one to get sick and avoid alcohol posining.

[Jamie Palisades]

I doubt we could work well with any community that doesn't practice tolerance.
I expect our own community to follow that same path, if not to set an example.
Regards JP

[symokurka]

I just would not feel comfortable in such an environment and would rather eat naito than visit Al Andalus.

Well you really miss something Ranma, I'm very sorry for you. Al Andalus is one of the most beautyful architectural reconstructions in the whole SL world. Nobody speaks about it in this horrible thread. I felt i HAD to mention this.

[Sonja Strom]

Symo, I would respectfully like to remind you of something I posted earlier in this thread:

A lot of work has been put into the Al-Andalus project, and the buildings there are beautiful.

Like you, I also think at least visiting there is a good idea before making too many judgements about it.

[Jamie Palisades]

Dang, I love naito! Sorry : ) But my first stop when in a Japanese community is pretty much to the store, to see what new bizarre flavors of gum & ice cream they have. The flavored jelly bean candy people in the US have *nothing* on the average Japanese street vendor, when it comes to experimenting with exotic tastes. Regards JP

P.S. and honestly I think Ranma's wrong about Al Andalus, but this is a democracy and she's more than welcome to have a strong opinion, including a negative one. Colliding cultures is a fine old SL tradition.

[symokurka]

but this is a democracy and she's more than welcome to have a strong opinion

Dear Chancellor. I perfectly agree. Some NuCare members in last RA too had strong opinions based on ignorance. And the waste of time and energies and money for CDS was huge thanks to their "strong opinions". We maybe need to invest more in education in our tiny and weak virtual republic.

Ah...thanks Ranma for your links to Wikipedia. I suggest you this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

[Timo Gufler]

Well, I would like to justify my comment posted earlier. First, I am friend of multicultural/multireligion societies and against intolerance. My home country, as well as many other European countries, are practically monocultural countries where life style and religion of the majority has "de facto" position in the society even if country officially claims something else. Of course level of freedom is higher than, for example, in many Islamic countries where your different opinions may cost your life or freedom.

My understanding is that Al Andalus was created to maintain Islamic culture and identity in Second Life world but maybe its objectives have changed as time has passed and many near-east culture lovers have joined Al Andaduls society. I visited there maybe two months ago and liked architecture (especially the huge fortress with the big towers) and general feeling of the place.

Why I am against joining Islamic society as multicultural member of CDS? Probably most of Islamic emigrants blend into western society without problems, especially if they already represent values of the western world like those many CDS people who live in Al Andalus (sometimes I wonder are there others... ). Some people in western world see Islam as a threat, because of Jihad and other issues, while others would like to soften the issue and see Islam as a friendly religion. Probably the both groups have good arguments and are right in their own way. Likely Islam doesn't have only one face any more than Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, or ancient Roman religion. As well as there are Islamic terrorists (including in the ancient Al Andalus in the 12 th century), there have been also Catholic inquisitors, Jewish militants, intolerant violent Atheists and so on.

My view is that CDS is an experiment of western democracy in a virtual world, while Al Andalus is an experiment of islamic democracy and maybe someone has started a Hindu democracy somewhere... I welcome anyone from any religion to be part of CDS but melting democracies of different cultural and religious background together is pointless and fruitless because they represent different way of thinking and practices managing the societies through laws (was it Sharia, Jewish law, United States legal code, CDS code of laws or any other). Merging would mean one group should give away the foundation of its identity.

I don't know how seriously Al Andalus models Islam. Maybe it has only picked islamic culture (buildings, clothes, music, etc.) in context of the western thinking and left out Sharia. Maybe it mainly consists of lovers of the Islamic culture from western world. I don't know. Still it has symbolic role of an Islamic state and an average outsider probably expects it to stand for the Islamic values. Because I don't support merging of Islamic and western states in real-life, I follow the same principle in the virtual life.

I hope to learn and understand Islam better. I already appreciate many things of Islamic world missing from western world.

Timo

[Cindy Ecksol]

I don't know how seriously Al Andalus models Islam. Maybe it has only picked islamic culture (buildings, clothes, music, etc.) in context of the western thinking and left out Sharia. Maybe it mainly consists of lovers of the Islamic culture from western world. I don't know. Still it has symbolic role of an Islamic state and an average outsider probably expects it to stand for the Islamic values. Because I don't support merging of Islamic and western states in real-life, I follow the same principle in the virtual life.

I hope to learn and understand Islam better. I already appreciate many things of Islamic world missing from western world.

Timo

I think you're missing the point....but then again, you get the point

The point that you are missing is that Al Andalus does not have anything to do with Islam the religion. And it never has. But the concepts of government that were in place during the period when the Iberian peninsula was dominated by the Moors are another thing altogether, and worth exploring. During that time there was an incredible flowering of culture in that area -- art, architecture, music, dance, philosphy, poetry, literature....you name it. Whether we agree or disagree with the details of that system, obviously the Moors got a lot of things right or the society of that time would not have had the energy to develop all of those non-essential cultural elements. Those concepts of government that permitted the development of the culture -- THAT is what Al Andalus is all about (and always has been).

It's not likely that you're going to learn much about Islam from hanging out in Al Andalus unless you seek out the Muslim members of the community and ask them about it, or attend a Muslim prayer session or storytelling session. But you may learn something about a system of government that lasted well over 500 years and in many ways was a "golden age" for the Iberian peninsula. I think it's a worthwhile endeavor.

Cindy

[Sonja Strom]

For those who are interested, here is a news report by Draxtor Despres from when Al Andalus in Second Life was opened:

Here is an SLNN report from around the same time:
http://www.slnn.com/article/alandalus-celebration/

Here is an invitation to its opening, posted in this Forum:
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1350
In it the Al Andalus project is described in the following way:

The Al-Andalus Caliphate Project reconstructs 13th Century Moor Alhambra and builds around this virtual space a community of individuals willing to explore the modalities of interaction between different languages, nationalities, religions and cultures within a political and juridical space shaped by authentic Islamic principles.