Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Locus Amoenus (246272, 250112)
Local-Position: (116, 160, 23)
Meeting on 2008-11-09
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Justice Soothsayer: Let's get started, as we have a quorum present
Kedwyn Parmelee: hi arria 
Pip Torok has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: I've dropped the agenda on each of you as a notecard, and its on the forum as well
Sonja Strom: lol
Justice Soothsayer: Please touch the transcript device to indicate consent to recording; it is in the middle of the floor.
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Kedwyn Parmelee has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi all, and sorry!
Sonja Strom: can somebody please turn this bench around?
Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
Justice Soothsayer: Does everyone find the agenda OK, or any changes?
Rubaiyat Shatner: agenda is fine
Arria Perreault: for me too
Sonja Strom: ok
Pip Torok: ok for me
Justice Soothsayer: I'd like to note that Flyingron Chung emailed that he cant be here due to a broken laptop, so he'll get a 7-day vote if there is anything we need to vote upon.
Gwyneth Llewelyn was just checking if Jamie's items were in; they are, so, yes, I'm fine with the agenda as well!
Sonja Strom: ah,
Justice Soothsayer: *Flyingroc
Justice Soothsayer: Does anyone not on the RA wish to sign up to speak on any of the agenda items?
Justice Soothsayer: (RA members automatically get to speak)
Gwyneth Llewelyn looks around
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess not...
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
Justice Soothsayer: Not sure why Jamie isn't here, maybe technical problems, but I know he'd like to address some of our items.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I was wondering about the same, Justice...
Symo Kurka: Yes, i'd like to speak on point III,b
Moon Adamant: hello all
Justice Soothsayer: OK, Symo, noted.
Moon Adamant: and thanks justice
Justice Soothsayer: HI Moon
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: welcome, Moonie
Arria Perreault: Hi Moon
Moon Adamant: i may want to speak...
Symo Kurka: hello Moon
Justice Soothsayer: OK, moving on to old business. Gwyn, do you have anything to report from the Electoral Commission?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sadly, no, Justice 
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It seems that meetings at Saturdays are not well attended...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might try to move it to another time...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Suggestions are welcome!
Justice Soothsayer: sorry but I had a little RL electoral business of my own this week
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well perhaps this was a bad day anyway
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *week even
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might not be able to make it next Saturday either
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The best I can offer is that we suggest a different time...
Justice Soothsayer: maybe do something after or before the next Kaffeeklatsch?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, or bring it up on the Kaffeeklatsch
Justice Soothsayer: (those are held on weekend the RA is not sitting)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we might have it before or after, yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: i.e. the next weekend
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I'll suggest it on the forums then.
Justice Soothsayer: OK. Anybody have comments/questions for Gwyn on this?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please! I'd really love to hear those comments )))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Gwyneth Llewelyn personally finds the issue a bit disturbing, I can only guess that everybody's happy with the currrent electoral system then...?
Sonja Strom: Hi Grey
Arria Perreault: Hi grey
Sonja Strom: welcome
Grey Ashdene: Thank you.
Rubaiyat Shatner: well happy may be reading into it
Justice Soothsayer: My only comment is to try for both US and Euro friendly times; maybe you should propose something horribly controbersial to stir up debate? Oh wait, we've done that in the past, maybe not such a good idea.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
Sonja Strom: lol
Moon Adamant:
Rubaiyat Shatner: how about "not pitchfork angry at"
Justice Soothsayer: OK, watch the forums & public notices as to commission meeting times.
Justice Soothsayer: Moving on...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can try, Rubaiyat 
Justice Soothsayer: Item 1 under new business is Jamie's proposed land swap, outlines here:
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Justice Soothsayer: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2195
Moon Adamant reads
Justice Soothsayer: "I ask the RA to approve a ownership trade between CDS land, and me personally, of two NFS parcels During Oktoberfest. we expanded the main CDS information center on the NFS Marktplatz by simply donating my own lot next door. Everyone seems to like it.
I propose that I make it permanent and personally give CDS that lot, trading it for the one across the Platz that's underused as a "store for citizens". As part of that swap, I propose to move or substitute the few citizen vendors, there, across the Platz to near the expanded location as feasible. "
Justice Soothsayer: Discussion?
Arria Perreault: My only question: is it fee and prims public/private neutral?
Justice Soothsayer: Good question; Sudane may be here later to answer it.
Rubaiyat Shatner: it sounds fine and I dont know if we need a vote, can we agree? and arrias question.
Sonja Strom: hi Brian!
Arria Perreault: Hi Brian
Brian Livingston: Hi
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie has asked us for a vote; he says he could make the swap himself but would be more comfortable with the RA Approval.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The way I see it,
Pip Torok: I think a formal vote more approopriate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie will pay for the "other "parcel,
Justice Soothsayer: I suppose we could vote to approve with the understanding that the prims & fees on the lots are the same.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's just a "awap"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *swap
Rubaiyat Shatner: I guess my question is do we need a vote or can we accept it on consensus?
Justice Soothsayer: Since FRC isn't here, he gets to vote by 7-day vote if we vote on anything. I think it's best we do so by formal motion so that he can participate.
Arria Perreault: he could have given to us the datas. I don't have the data of plots for NFS and they are not anymore on the old website
Arria Perreault: I have made a search today
Brian Livingston: I can get that data for you if you'd like
Arria Perreault: http://neufreistadt.info/id11.html
Arria Perreault: yes, I would like to have them
Justice Soothsayer: Sudane says she'll be here in about 2 mins
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, that was the spreadsheet on Flyingroc's machine
Justice Soothsayer: I bet she'll have the answer.
Arria Perreault: I don't know but it was practivcal to have this public
Arria Perreault: maybe the same of the owner is not necessary
Brian Livingston: Hmm, I just need the plot numbers, one sec
Justice Soothsayer: via IM, Sudane is looking up the answer to Arria's question.
Arria Perreault: are the date you're looking for now online?
Justice Soothsayer: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... 5SoA3QNDOg
Gwyneth Llewelyn waits. I think it's pertinent to understand the difference in prims and monthly fees too, but overall, I support the 'swap'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, now we just need to figure out which plots are being swapped 
Douglas Rishmal: Excuse me..
Douglas Rishmal: mind if I observe?
Sonja Strom: Hi Douglas, welcome
Arria Perreault: Brian, I suggest that you add a link to this spreadsheet in the portal
Douglas Rishmal: (sorry if I didn't use proper protocol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Douglas, you're welcome ? the meetings are public
Justice Soothsayer: Welcome, Douglas
Sonja Strom: please sit with us, although it is a formal meeting.
Arria Perreault: I was looking for these data this afternnon, but I did not know this document
Sonja Strom: Please observe the leadership of Justice Soothsayer.
Justice Soothsayer: I believ ethe plots involved in the swap are equivalent, but I dont know which number is which. So we could either (a) send someone over to NFS to check out the plot numbers; (b) approve the swap contingent on the fees being equal.
Justice Soothsayer: Ah, here's Sudane.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Welcome, Sudane. Our question is whether the plots Jamie would like to swap to accomodate a larger visitor center are equivalent in fees and prims. We've looked at the spreadsheet, but don't know the plot numbers invovlfed.
Justice Soothsayer: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... 5SoA3QNDOg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... I'm trying to figure out the plots... I *think* we're talking about "Haney-Linden-Strasse (Platz District) 1805 "
Sudane Erato: hmm... let me check the dbase
Sonja Strom: would you like for me to go and see what the numbers of them are?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or rather, 1465 and 1805?
Justice Soothsayer: I think Sudane has the ownership data
Sudane Erato: Jamie now owns 1635 Platz... and
Sonja Strom: ok
Sudane Erato: 2420 Talenstrassse
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right... it's almost impossible to read the blurred numbers on the map...
Sudane Erato: does that help?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Sudane!
Justice Soothsayer: And the plot he wants to stawp for 1635 Platz (currently owned by govt)?
Sudane Erato: hmm...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Either 1465 or 1805, if I can read those tiny, blurred numbers correctly....
Sonja Strom: hahaa
Sudane Erato: no... 1465 is Baldor
Sudane Erato: its either 1740 or 1775..
Sudane Erato: those are the ones now owned by the govt
Justice Soothsayer: Well, 1775 seems to be the one that is equivalent in prims & fees
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I see, so the map is pretty useless lol
Sudane Erato: 1740 is 144... and 1775 is 96.... sqm that is
Sonja Strom: :-\
Sudane Erato: if its the old map, which that might be... there are revisions that n eed dpoing
Grey Ashdene: Sorry, excuse me, Rl intrudes.
Sudane Erato: i can go look??
Justice Soothsayer: sure
Sonja Strom: ok, see you Grey
Sudane Erato: what is the swap he proposes?
Justice Soothsayer: thanks for coming, Grey
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it's better, yes.... I'm confused already...
Justice Soothsayer: As announced at the last RA meeting two weeks ago, I ask the RA to approve a ownership trade between CDS land, and me personally, of two NFS parcels During Oktoberfest. we expanded the main CDS information center on the NFS Marktplatz by simply donating my own lot next door. Everyone seems to like it.
I propose that I make it permanent and personally give CDS that lot, trading it for the one across the Platz that's underused as a "store for citizens". As part of that swap, I propose to move or substitute the few citizen vendors, there, across the Platz to near the expanded location as feasible. "
Sudane Erato: just take me a sec
Grey Ashdene: Thanks.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1635 is 96 m2, 22 prims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1775 as well.
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So if the swap is between 1635 and 1775, it's fine!
Sudane Erato: i think the citizen coop shop is 144
Brian Livingston: I believe so as well
Rubaiyat Shatner: my assumption is that he would reconcile any differences in fees
Rubaiyat Shatner: from that perspective it sounds just fine
Sudane Erato: yes, i'm sure he will
Justice Soothsayer: it works for me as well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have no problem with that then, and I'd move a motion to approve the swap, subject to any fee differences to be paid.
Justice Soothsayer: Anyone care to second that?
Rubaiyat Shatner: second
Justice Soothsayer: OK, any further discussions?
Justice Soothsayer: Ready to vote?
Rubaiyat Shatner: no further discussion from me
Arria Perreault: ok for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ready as well!
Pip Torok: and me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: here comes Brian...
Justice Soothsayer: All in favor, please say aye
Pip Torok: aye
Rubaiyat Shatner: I vote yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
Rubaiyat Shatner: (aye)
Arria Perreault: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes aye
Justice Soothsayer: FRC gets a 7-day vote, but the motion is passed.
Justice Soothsayer: Brian, we voted top approve even if the plots arent equivalend as long as Jamie makes up any difference.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Pip Torok: *node*
Brian Livingston: I have the figures if you're interested. Jamie owns 1635 HLS, which is 96 m2. That would be swapped for the Coop shop at 1740 HLS, which is 144m2
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, there will be a slight increase in fees.
Sudane Erato: so he'll pay a bit more in tier
Pip Torok: (hardly a hill of beans:)
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly...
Arria Perreault: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next, b. Discussion of policy regarding void sims and public spaces (9:30 to 10:00) ?
Justice Soothsayer: Still, it's quite good that Jamie brought this to us for approval in interests of transparency.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Justice, and I'd like to thank him for that!
Justice Soothsayer: So lets move on the b. Discussion of policy....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Riiiiiight )
Justice Soothsayer: Arria, would you like to start?
Arria Perreault: Yes, thank you Justice
Moon Adamant: brb
Arria Perreault: I have ask to add this point because I have made some reflexion about our land management regarding public space and expansion
Arria Perreault: these reflexion were inspired by the issue of the void sim
Arria Perreault: the question is how can we add some void spaces
Arria Perreault: I don't have the right answer, but I strongly think that we have to define a general policy of land management
Arria Perreault: until now, we have added sims to sims, with different public/private keys
Arria Perreault: we have different fees
Arria Perreault: it's very complicates
Arria Perreault: I have tried to make some calculations
Arria Perreault: infortunately I did not know this spreadsheet
Arria Perreault: and I did not have all the numbers
Arria Perreault: I think that we need a better view on our land
Arria Perreault: with a dashboard
Arria Perreault: and that we should base our policy on datas
Arria Perreault: but some political decisions are to be taken
Arria Perreault: % of private and public use: general % on all CDS
Arria Perreault: fees based on msq or in prims
Arria Perreault: % of LL fees we get from residents
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you mean that *every* sim should have the same amount of public vs. private space, instead of doing it sim by sim?... (sorry to interrupt you, Arria, just clarifying your point)
Arria Perreault: If we have this general view, we can see easely the consequences of adding a new sim, a void sim on all the system
Moon Adamant: back
Arria Perreault: I think that we have to define this amount for all CDS: we have to reach this average in the addition of all sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Arria Perreault: a total void sim can be compasated by a sim like AM
Arria Perreault: where the situattion is VERY confortable
Justice Soothsayer: So that all of us are paying a little for public spaces even on sims we dont own land in.
Arria Perreault: it's already the case, I think
Arria Perreault: we pay for the Schloss
Symo Kurka: (raises hand)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh not quite, except perhaps for Neufreistadt
Arria Perreault: but now it's sim by sim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it is.
Arria Perreault: it' could be for all CDS
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, and defined by the Masterplan for instance.
Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes now and lets Sonja speak...
Arria Perreault: as NFS rsident pay for the Schloss, we all can pay for a void sim
Arria Perreault: enough for my introduction
Sonja Strom: thanks, but not Sonja, Symo...
Justice Soothsayer: Arria, when you're done, Symo is next.
Arria Perreault: I am done for now
Symo Kurka: may I?
Justice Soothsayer: OK, Symo?
Justice Soothsayer: you're up.
Symo Kurka: i invite evrybody to have a look at our GMP which might need update, but gives a track (and figures too) on how we can develop our territories; this might be changed and discussed ofcourse, but we do not need to start again from zero
Symo Kurka: it states and defines for clusters of sims the proportion of public/private...
Symo Kurka: but i wiull stop for now, as i have to propose amother point on existing public land
Arria Perreault: right
Moon Adamant: raises her hand
Arria Perreault: The problem is that the GMP is not like a law ...
Justice Soothsayer: Right, Symo, the GMP is very helpful. LL's change on void sim rates may mean some numbers must be re-run though.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Justice...
Arria Perreault: we have to define this in a public policy
Symo Kurka: yes i agree, as i said in forums
Justice Soothsayer: Well, Arria, the GMP was approved as guiding policy, I think.
Moon Adamant: indeed
Symo Kurka: as soon as LL policy will get clear and steady..
Justice Soothsayer: Moon, feel free to chime in here.
Moon Adamant: well, Sonja is first, i think
Sonja Strom: thanks, but I never asked to speak - it was only Symo
Arria Perreault: ok
Moon Adamant: ah ok
Moon Adamant: ok
Sonja Strom: there was a misunderstanding...
Moon Adamant: so here is my tuppence
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry for my adding to the confusion (( )
Moon Adamant: first of all, The Guild is trying to make projections on the additional cost of cvoids
Justice Soothsayer rummages for the insert mouth in foot gesture
Moon Adamant: this has become more difficult by this week's change in policy
Moon Adamant: but it seems to me
Moon Adamant: technically speaking
Moon Adamant: that we first of all should find, if possible, a m2/fee for the CDS
Moon Adamant: fee/m2*
Moon Adamant: and then, with that number in our hands
Moon Adamant: we can project how much a hmmm
Moon Adamant: imagine this situation
Moon Adamant: GMP demands water sims as connectors
Moon Adamant: we need to make one, but it has an islaet with a house or lighthouse, so one inhabitant
Moon Adamant: by having that fee/m2
Arria Perreault: I think that we should make a reflection about the way we calculate our fees
Moon Adamant: we could calculate easily how much the resident would pay, and how much the CDS would have to support
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Arria Perreault: maybe we should base them on prims
Moon Adamant: and that, i think, would ease the political discussion
Moon Adamant: fee/m2 or fee/prims
Arria Perreault: and recalculate the rpim price for each new sim
Moon Adamant: as Symo said, we should wait a little more to see what's the outcome of LL policy and use then the tools that are better for us
Arria Perreault: with an average prim price, we can better take in account void sims
Arria Perreault: and homestead
Sudane Erato: well... the LL policy is now pretty much set in stone as to prices
Justice Soothsayer: A more fundamental point: would we be better off having a common fee/prim or fee/m2 structure, or a graduated one depending on the type of plot. (For example, either giving a subsidy to commerical property to encourage business, or charging more for commercial plots on the grounds they take up more resources?)
Arria Perreault: this price can be adapted when we add new sims
Sudane Erato: they have dug a hole that they cannot easily get out of
Moon Adamant: well, i am aware of the existence of congregated efforts to stop this change in policy
Moon Adamant: so we will see
Sudane Erato: yes... well... i think now they will fail
Sudane Erato: sorry to be so negative
Symo Kurka: Justice may i add a new point?
Justice Soothsayer: Sure, Symo
Arria Perreault: LL has already changed the decision, with noraml opensapce and homestead
Symo Kurka: A specific proposal for ADV points in existing public spaces
Symo Kurka: May i go on?
Justice Soothsayer: please do, symo
Symo Kurka: As we grow bigger I think we need an effort to advertise more in world our assets, our business activities, our entertainment points..
Symo Kurka: So i propose to use some of public spaces to rez visual landmark-givers to advertise:
1) our monuments, and evrything already the guided tour shows (i did'nt know we have a museum lol)
Symo Kurka: 2) the commercial activities of our citizens (shops etc)
Symo Kurka: 3) our old and new entertainment points
Symo Kurka: 4) land and houses available for sale (anf maybe in the future for rent)
Symo Kurka: If RA agrees ofcourse next steps could be
Symo Kurka: - discussion (in guild?) and proposal of public spaces to dedicate to CDS promotion
Symo Kurka: - choice of an appropriate landmark giver to be rezzed in the above public spaces
Symo Kurka: - census of activities/places to promote (WIDE OPEN to all citizens' needs and proposals)
Symo Kurka: - responsibility for update and maintainance of the above
Symo Kurka: (done, thank you for your patience)
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Symo.
Arria Perreault: let me give you some numbres
Arria Perreault: numbers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So effectively, Symo, what you're proposing is that the cost of running public spaces ought to come out of the CDS's marketing budget?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a VERY interesting concept!
Arria Perreault: we have now 43744 prims in private use
Symo Kurka: i just underline we need more in world marketing
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* we need, yes, Symo....
Arria Perreault: if we define the price of a prim to fix the fee
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria ? that would be in the whole of the CDS overall?
Arria Perreault: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. So mmmh what's the overall "price per prim" grid-wide? I've seen it listed as L$2/prim during the openspace discussions...
Moon Adamant: atm, those calculations must be differentiated
Symo Kurka: Arria, we need a more accurate survey on NFS....
Moon Adamant: in our territory
Arria Perreault: if we increase a very little bit the price of a prim, this has small effect on our fees as residents, but a big one for CDS finances
Moon Adamant: because NFS and i believe CN still pay the old tier
Arria Perreault: and CDS can finance voids sim this way
Jamie Palisades has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good question, and one to Sudane ? how much does the CDS pay for tier these days?
Arria Perreault: I don't think that we have to make a difference between sims
Sudane Erato: I'm working on this data by the request of the NG
Arria Perreault: we are a community
Symo Kurka: Arria, sims ARE different
Justice Soothsayer: So, Arria, if I may interrupt for a moment?
Symo Kurka: they have different densities
Arria Perreault: I know
Symo Kurka: different landscapes...
Symo Kurka: different values
Arria Perreault: but I am talking on prims and not on land
Symo Kurka: different nr of residents
Symo Kurka: different ratio of prims
Justice Soothsayer: I think what you are saying is tht although we have typically made these sort of calculations (prims, fees, etc) on a sim by sim basis, we ought to make them on an overall CDS-wide basis?
Justice Soothsayer: Is that a fair summary of your comments, Arria?
Arria Perreault: people of AM give a lot of monay to CDS and this money can be used elsewhere
Arria Perreault: yes, Justice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, if I get it correctly....
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The CDS pays 2 * 195 + 2 * 295 in tier fees, or US$980 ? about mmmh L$265,000 or so
Arria Perreault: we have to make calculation and see effects on fees
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for 45,000 prims
Arria Perreault: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we pay a little less than L$6/prim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "we" as in: "the citizens"
Arria Perreault: but we get more than 980 US$ ...
Moon Adamant: yes, but that's healthy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, yes, of course,
Arria Perreault: from citizen fees
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should have said: "each citizen's contribution to pure tier costs is L$6/prim"
Sudane Erato: yes
Arria Perreault: we have to base the price not on the LL price, but on maximal fee from citizen
Symo Kurka: we all prefer an active budget
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're right, Arria.
Moon Adamant: hmmmm Arria
Symo Kurka: it allows investments for the future
Moon Adamant: i think it would be interesting to study an uniformization of tier
Arria Perreault: it's more: 10L$ maybe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: My point was just hmm... allegedly, mainland sims are at L$2/prim (cost)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Homestead sims, L$10 (also cost)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I forgot the price for openspace sims, but I guess these are going to be pretty useless
Moon Adamant: namely because NFS and CN won't be able to reamin low-cost for much longer, LL will introduce class servers soon and it's very +possible that they discontinue older machines
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm if we charge around L$12/prim or so
Arria Perreault: we can add these prices in the calcultaion
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, yes
Moon Adamant: class 6*
Arria Perreault: openspace: all prims are public or a half
Arria Perreault: homestead: 2/3 public
Gwyneth Llewelyn: with 10 L$/prim we have a surplus of L$200k/month or so
Arria Perreault: we have to make projections
Moon Adamant: hmm Arria, i don't5 think you can establish rules like that
Moon Adamant: follow me for a moment
Moon Adamant: atm, LL provides us with three different products
Moon Adamant: full sims
Moon Adamant: sims that have 1750 prims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well, what IS the current ration of private/public land, averaged over all four sims?)
Justice Soothsayer: I am having a little trouble following all this math. I think we might be much further ahead asking Guild/Sudane/Arria and anyone else who wants to be involved to study and report on different cost models for us.
Arria Perreault: bases of the calculation: LL total fees + %more of this fees / prims in private use
Moon Adamant: sims that have 700 prims
Moon Adamant: i am sorry, should i shut up?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Justice Soothsayer: sorry, Moon.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... speaking strictly for myself, of course, I'd definitely would like to continue the open discussion ? even if we don't have any 'models' yet
Arria Perreault: I am ok with your proposition, Justice
Moon Adamant waits
Justice Soothsayer: Moon, sorry I interrupted, please contnue with your difuccion of prims and sims
Moon Adamant: ok, thank you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The only 'political' decision that the RA can make at this stage is to ask for either the Treasurer or the Guild to provide some models...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, Moon...
Moon Adamant: so these are the three products that LL offer us
Moon Adamant: you will observe that we don't have a middle -range product
Moon Adamant: now, when looking at our GMP
Moon Adamant: we observe densities that can't be achieved by the use of the lower-range products
Moon Adamant: the solution is then to go for the AM model
Moon Adamant: in which you aim at a larger primmage/area grid
Moon Adamant: while continuing to be able to pay for a full sim
Moon Adamant: the lower-range sims can then be used for the lowest density areas
Moon Adamant: and that is why i think that we can't atm establish ratios of public/private land
Arria Perreault: LL will restrict performances for opensspaces
Moon Adamant: Arria, but if i only have one resident in a lighthouse, that doesn't matter
Arria Perreault: I propose to make a ratio for public/private use of prims
Moon Adamant: if that resident wants to throw a party,. the CDS has public infrastructure he can use
Arria Perreault: a small increase of this price can give CDS the possibility to have finance a large part of a void sim
Moon Adamant: well, my proposal runs on another way
Arria Perreault: and the resident of the lighthouse can pay a reasonnable price
Moon Adamant: consider that we need to have ALL sims as part of our territory
Arria Perreault: based on the prims he/she uses
Moon Adamant: calculate the extra cost and divide it by residents
Arria Perreault: if we get void sims, we get also landscape, beauty
Moon Adamant: seeing that the whole (a coherent territory) is bigger than the sum of parts (the individual sims)
Jamie Palisades smiles - just here to listen today, but will share some additional issues about prim use & sim load rules with the guild, and they will come here eventually if we need to change covenants - as I suspect we will
Arria Perreault: I am sure that the people of LA are ready to participate financially to the improvement of the view in their sim
Moon Adamant: Arria
Arria Perreault: we are a community and not a confederation of sims
Moon Adamant: your proposal is a bit like the organization of catholic parishes
Arria Perreault: I am ready to pay to ski, to ride my horse
Moon Adamant: where the richer parishes help the poorer parishes directly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: )))
Arria Perreault: I don't that it is my model
Moon Adamant: i am asking you to consider that we can spread the cost of voids in an equal way through all our community
Arria Perreault: my model is the philosophy of CDS
Arria Perreault: yes, but not totally
Justice Soothsayer: We are all one big church, just with lots of denominations
Arria Perreault:
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Justice
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rose )))
Sonja Strom: hi Rose!
Moon Adamant: hiya Rose
Rose Springvale: hi, did i sit on anyone? not rezzed lol
Arria Perreault: if we were a confederation with local comittes on each sim, it would not work
Pip Torok: hi Rose !b...
Arria Perreault: but we are not
Sonja Strom: nope
Arria Perreault: rl states pay for roads, national parks, etc...
Arria Perreault: I don't know why the whole CDS could not pay for some landscape
Justice Soothsayer: OK, speaking as your Monsignor we ought to start to wrap up this discussion.
Arria Perreault: we need a general policy and not a sim after sim policy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the only issue I have right now (besides not being able to 'tag' prices, since we'd need to look at spreadsheets), is the slight loss of 'flexibility' when designing new sims. On the other hand, there is a feeling of 'fairness' ? every citizen contributing to the overall public spaces ? which I like very much, of course.
Arria Perreault: we have the GMP. we have data
Symo Kurka: GMP's objective was flexibility
Arria Perreault: see AM
Justice Soothsayer: Personally, I think we need a bit more data, and ought to ask the NG to review the GMP in light of Linden Lab changes, and look at the question of how we calculate fees.
Symo Kurka: and offering DIFFERENT opportunities
Arria Perreault: thee public space in very small
Justice Soothsayer: This should be a broad process seeking community input
Symo Kurka: with different kinds of sims
Justice Soothsayer: and informed by bata.
Justice Soothsayer: *data.
Arria Perreault: so AM people finance public places in oher sims
Arria Perreault: AM is full
Arria Perreault: not LA
Arria Perreault: AM pays LA
Arria Perreault: this is the reality
Arria Perreault: why not admit it?
Symo Kurka: there's nothing stranbe with this Arria
Symo Kurka: *strange
Moon Adamant: afk for a few minutes
Arria Perreault: we can do the same with void sims
Arria Perreault: the way to do this is to have a general fee policy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see, Arria. Your point is more one of fairness and justice,
Arria Perreault: probably based on prims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. all citizens, no matter where they live in the CDS, ought to contribute in a *similar* way.
Arria Perreault: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can imagine that the NFS citizens with their tiny plots barely cover the costs of their own sim
Gwyneth Llewelyn blames herself
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So that would be a general change of policy ? make fees more balanced overall.
Arria Perreault: we have to see the effects
Arria Perreault: on each plot
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it's worthy to give that as a task for the Treasurer + the New Guild to analyse further on spreadhseets.
Justice Soothsayer: I agree, Gwyn
Arria Perreault: I agree (I would like to participate to calculations )
Justice Soothsayer: adding in the projections of what happens with various expansion scenarioes (e.g. use of void sims, new sims, etc.)
Symo Kurka: Gwyn, have in mind that OUR offer of new land has to be diversified
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, I'll suggest a motion ? that the RA asks the Treasurer + the New Guild to propose a new pricing structure, taking into account the Masterplan, that makes each citizen contribute more fairly towards the overall public spending.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Symo ? yes
Arria Perreault: I second
Justice Soothsayer: Well, Gwyn, I'm not sure what "more fairly" means,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mind you, this will probably mean raising prices for some citizens, and lower the prices for others ? so, yes, that will not be 'fixed on stone' and require some more discussion, preferably open one, involving as many citizens as possible...
Justice Soothsayer: but I think I get the concept.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "more fairly" in the sense: having every citizen coming close to "equally" sharing the burden of public spending.
Symo Kurka: good luck...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. my payments should not only pay for the tier in NFS; but also pay a part of the public spending on *all* sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Symo
Symo Kurka: imagine all citizens having their tiers changed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don't be such a pessimist!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I can imagine, yes
Arria Perreault: I have made some projections on what I pay with my numbers: it's not so high that when LL raises its own prices
Symo Kurka: not proportionally to LL new policy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I can even imagine this requiring a referendum,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and you know how I feel about that
Arria Perreault: and citizen must express, of course
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we need to have a starting point, and that will very likely be the General Masterplan...
Arria Perreault: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and, of course, the +current* prices
Gwyneth Llewelyn almost hears Sudane cursing softly
Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In any case, I don't think it *hurts* to discuss this based on some calculations...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if there is no consensus later...
Jamie Palisades knows what it takes for people to do work, as opposed to ask for it, and does not giggle much
Justice Soothsayer: Scrolling back, it seems that we have a motion and a second.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Worst case scenario: we don't approve any changes, but at least everybody will understand the *current* price structure better, in detail. I'm all for more transparency!
Justice Soothsayer: "that the RA asks the Treasurer + the New Guild to propose a new pricing structure, taking into account the Masterplan, that makes each citizen contribute more fairly towards the overall public spending."
Jamie Palisades: May I ask a question for clarity of the motion;s proposer?
Justice Soothsayer: Discussion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas, Jamie, you already have ONE volunteer to do the calculations...
Arria Perreault: I am volunteer
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, go ahead.
Jamie Palisades: There's no alas we're lucky to have her
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What's your question, Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: Just inquriing whether the intent of the motion is that the chancellor stay out of it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: No!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps I might suggest a different wording...
Symo Kurka: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Excecutive + New Guild"
Jamie Palisades: AS yo;ve alreday been informed that we are working on something - Sudance to be sure, but others as well
Jamie Palisades: Well, Symo this is CDS one must ask
Arria Perreault: yes, but it's more genral now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: After all, the Treasurer *is* part of the Executive ? and that way, it's clear that neither the Chancellor (nor the PIO, who will certainly give input on the public spending on events & promotion) are excluded.
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn, I would also like to add on the charge that the same cast of characters explore the financial implications of voids v other kinds of possible new sims.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Justice: sure, I'll second that change
Justice Soothsayer: as part of the "new structure"
Justice Soothsayer: Further discussion?
Justice Soothsayer: Hearing none, shall we vote?
Arria Perreault: can we have the final text of the motion?
Moon Adamant: i will have to leave you all now to prepare the NG Board Meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh let me see, Arria
Moon Adamant: thanks all
Justice Soothsayer: that the RA asks the Treasurer + the New Guild to propose a new pricing structure, taking into account the Masterplan, that makes each citizen contribute more fairly towards the overall public spending; and explore the financial implications of voids v other kinds of possible new sims.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Executive instead of Treasurer, Justice.
Justice Soothsayer: * Executive, not Treasurer.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* and smiles
Arria Perreault: ok
Justice Soothsayer: All in favour?
Pip Torok: aye
Arria Perreault: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes aye, and notes that FRC can add his vote by 7-day vote.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye of course
Justice Soothsayer: Motion carries.
Justice Soothsayer: We are now nearly at the 2 hour mark. RA rules call for a period of open discussion, so I'll open it up for any comments from all.
Arria Perreault: I have tow question for the Chancellor
Arria Perreault: but the answer can come on next meeting
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie is scheduled to report at our next meeting, but if you would like to pose the questions now, Arria, I imagine he would appreciate it.
Arria Perreault: ok
Arria Perreault: 1. I would like to have news from our programm of encouragement for economical activities
Justice Soothsayer looks at his watch, note the NEw Guild meeting is beginning, and doesn;t expect Jamie to answer right now.
Arria Perreault: 2. I have seen that many plots are for sale in CN. Many are also for sale in LA (CDS sales). I would like to know if the Executive has a plan or propositions for our romans sims
Arria Perreault: to make them more living, to advertise them
Arria Perreault: I am done
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Arria.
Justice Soothsayer: Anyone else?
Jamie Palisades: best for me to provide written answers on the Forum, so as not to take ovevr Guild time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sounds fair enough
Arria Perreault: or in next meeting
Jamie Palisades: AS I said in writing
Justice Soothsayer: Good idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Motion to adjourn then?....
Pip Torok: seconded
Justice Soothsayer: Hearing no objection, we are adjounred.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: goodie
Jamie Palisades: Justice, might be worth noting that I am obligated to reporton the economics point (arria's #1) by next weekend
Arria Perreault:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's run to the New Guild meeting next
Justice Soothsayer: Off to Guild.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you all
Jamie Palisades: Cheers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Bye bye!
Justice Soothsayer: Bye all
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, Jamie, I think that's right.
Arria Perreault: Bye all, thank you for the constructive meeting
Pip Torok: bye all
Sonja Strom: bye everybody
The meeting closed at 11:6 Linden time.