I probably shouldn't comment as a civil servant, but for fRSS eeds that show only the first line, this looks to be a meaty RA meeting:
Meeting on 2008-11-23
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Bells Semyorka has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: just waiting another minute for stragglers
Arria Perreault: ok
Justice Soothsayer: Well, we have a quorum, so we should get started.
Justice Soothsayer: The agenda is in the notecard dispenser on the table, and at http://forums.slcds.info//viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2209
Justice Soothsayer: PLease touch the recording device on the table to indicate your consent to recording.
Justice Soothsayer: Is the proposed agenda acceptable?
Arria Perreault: Hi Jamie
Arria Perreault: I just ask for this point about prim-based fees?
Arria Perreault: should we wait the report of the Guild?
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Arria. LEt's address that under New Guild report.
Arria Perreault: ok
Pip Torok has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Other than the Chancellor, we don't have anyone here to ask about signing up to speak on agenda items.
Justice Soothsayer: So let us move on to item I (d), RA meeting locations and December schedule
Pip Torok: can someone pass me the agenda please?
Pip Torok: (tx)
Justice Soothsayer: The govt workspace group recommends that the RA meet regularly in the Praetorium as it has the most seating space
Justice Soothsayer: We have been rotating our meeting locations; what's your preference for the rest of the term? Continue rotation, or meet here in the Praetorium?
Pip Torok: if were going to stabilise ... lets start now
Arria Perreault: until the end of january, the chappel of the Monastery will not be available
Arria Perreault: because of the current exhibition
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry for being so late... hi all
Justice Soothsayer: sounds like a couple of votes for continuing to meet here at the Praetorium
Bells Semyorka: hello Gwyn
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Gwyn
Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn 
Arria Perreault: for me it's ok. The place in NFS is very small
Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees too
Arria Perreault: and in LA, we have to be outside (in winter 
)
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Justice Soothsayer: I do like the tradition of a procession into the Rathaus at the start of the term, but we'll let the next RA deal with that!
Bells Semyorka smiles, ohh that means we would be freezing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes...
Justice Soothsayer: So let us plan to continue meeting here. Our once a fortnight schedule would hav eus meet on 7 December and 21 December, which avoids the Christmas holidays, I think.
Arria Perreault: when are next election? in december?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we ought to fix the date...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's always at the most inconvenient time, somewhen near the end of the year.
Arria Perreault: who fix the date? the RA?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, we confirm it,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: based on what the Constitution says
Justice Soothsayer: "New RAs shall take office on 1 February and 1 August. Elections shall be held over a 168 hour period beginning at noon SLT on the Saturday before the 16th of the month prior to the new RAs taking office."
Jamie Palisades: hmm - as to location, may I ask a quick question?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure Jamie!
Justice Soothsayer: GO ahead, Jamie
Jamie Palisades: We have the government spaces report from the guild
Jamie Palisades: it makes some suggestions, including about the RA
Jamie Palisades: does teh RA need to do anything? or change its meeting locatio habit? or reject the report? or etc?
Justice Soothsayer: indeed, that's why I raised the question, Jamie
Justice Soothsayer: I think I heard a consensus that we should meet here for the rest of the term.
Jamie Palisades: OK thanks just wanetd ot know what to report
Arria Perreault: frankli, I think that the report is right about the meetings in this place
Arria Perreault: for the RA
Justice Soothsayer: But I do think we all should review the report before we consider a vote on anything else
Arria Perreault: I agree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Pip Torok: one thing to consider: we pride ourselves on having _open_ meetings ... open meeting in small venues cannot happen ...
Justice Soothsayer: So let us plan on meeting at the Praetorium on 7 December and 21 December, unless sudden events require meeting more frequently
Arria Perreault: ok
Pip Torok: ok by me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Bells Semyorka: sounds great Justice
Justice Soothsayer: Great. Let's move on the the Chancellor's report. Jamie, the floor is yours, but let us know at the outset if you would prefer to entertain questions during the course of your report or would like them held until the end.
Jamie Palisades: let's hold to the end please, and thanks.
Jamie Palisades: First some minor reports.
CDS held several very nice events recently, notably including the Kirche speakng series Gwyneth has been running on the weekends, and two stops yesterday in the Grand Tour of 16 sims, still ongoing this weekend as a 48-hour progressive party. We did a Greek theme in CN and an Alpine theme in NFS, oddly enough and we were pleased that both worked, stood out as unique, and were popular musically. Thank you to Rose, Arria, Sonja, Rudo, Moon, Sudane and others for hosting and helping with these events. That event goes on as we speak,in the last 6 or 7 sims of the tour ... see the poster posted at the CDS Infohaus at the NFS Marktplatz.
Jamie Palisades: As to future events, please watch the CDS web Portal and our Google Calendar, as well as the various in-world info devices we have posted in our sims. There will be several fun events during the next 6 weeks' holiday season. Particularly, I want to thank Arria, here, who along with Brian, Rose, Sudane and Sonja is a helpfully reliable ttendee from our government at our events. It matters; we get good new citizen leads from EVERY event, and having our citizens and leaders around to reflect well on us helps.
Jamie Palisades: As to future events, please watch the CDS web Portal and our Google Calendar, as well as the various in-world info devices we have posted in our sims. There will be several fun events during the next 6 weeks' holiday season. Particularly, I want to thank Arria, here, who along with Brian, Rose, Sudane and Sonja is a helpfully reliable ttendee from our government at our events. It matters; we get good new citizen leads from EVERY event, and having our citizens and leaders around to reflect well on us helps.
Jamie Palisades nods at Arria
Jamie Palisades: .. who by the way ably hosted our 4 sm SLT event in CN
Jamie Palisades: (thank heaven .. that's 4 am for me as well 
)
Arria Perreault: time was ok for me
Arria Perreault: middle of the day
Jamie Palisades: Second, we will hold a holiday decorating contest during September by giving away copies of our Mascot owl Minerva ... who you will recognize both from our flag and from our CDS Your. (Gwyn, what's the URL of your film of the tour?) Citizens will be invited to customize and decorate Minverva .. who you see here 
... for a prize to be awarded at our December event.
Jamie Palisades: um,. the hat's optional
Jamie Palisades: So much for small matters On to commerce.
Sonja Strom has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jamie Palisades: As a preliminary matter, let me point out that today I am speaking to the Commerce Bill and the CDS land vacancy rate. These issues are somewhat, but only tangentially, related to other issues CDS faces, which include a proposed fifth sim and proposed combination with the AL Andalus estate. Personally I have hopes that both of those latter plans may proceed towards development as well, and some matters are ongoing in both cases, but this report is not about those -- it's about the more general, and long-running, issues of CDS commercial land and our land vacancy rate.
Jamie Palisades: ...
Timo Gufler: (hi all 
)
Timo Gufler:
Jamie Palisades: Let me me organize this FIRST by reporting and responding briefly to each point of the the amended Commerce Bill, and SECOND with conclusions and recommendations, and then suggets that we take questions or discussion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (FIY, the Tour of the CDS video is on http://GwynethLlewelyn.blip.tv/#1473898 )
Jamie Palisades: thx
Jamie Palisades: [From Justice's posted summary of the amended Commerce Bill:] [point one] >> * Requests the Chancellor to develop a promotional plan for commercial activity within CDS with the help of a experienced business consultant and provides authority to spend up to L$25,000 for consulting services. <<
Jamie Palisades: on that:
Jamie Palisades: I wish to report that I consulted with half a dozen experts -- chamber of commerce and business broker types -- and identified 3 candidates as possible consultants, each of which I interviewed but, frankly, all of whom did not seem to have significant experience, and all of whom seems to be more interested in learning from us than teaching us. Several also were very bad about returning calls/messages and the like. Rose S. assisted in some of these contacts,m by the way, and I'm grateful for that, but the responsibility's mine.
Jamie Palisades: Of course, this initiative also came at a time when the RL economy has been reeling from adverse change that affects discretionary purchases (like SL activity), AND a general down market in SL real estate, made muhc worse by the somewhat erratic market effects of Linden Lab's open space sime price changes.
Jamie Palisades: (grr)
Jamie Palisades: I was not left with a strong feeling that we would do well, or gain something of significant value .. at this time .. by spending hundreds of US dollars on uncredentialed expertise. So I regretfully declined to implement the RA's suggestion, having no way to implement it in a fiscally sound way, after some diligent effort.
Jamie Palisades: However ...
Jamie Palisades: We still, of course, are left with the need to take appropriate steps. I am proposing several here, at the end of this presentation today, based on the assumptions stated there. I was at least able to have a number of very productive discussions with sim, mall and estate owners to identify some positive directions for us. ...
Jamie Palisades: .. I must report that most commercial people and most sim owners I have met do NOT wish to be quoted or talk about these issues publicly -- it's a scary, down economy, and no one wants to make attributable statements about their own sales drops or vacancy rates. So mostly I am sharing only anecdtoral and anonymized viewpoints. But I have put considerable time into that this last month, and of course, any of you also is free to go out and have those discussions to verify or challange the conclusions that I am presenting for your further thought, below.
Jamie Palisades: that's it for point one.
Jamie Palisades: [Justice's summary:] [point two] >> * Sets aside not less than 15% of all commercial plots owned by CDS (either through abandonment or new development) for new business development by CDS citizens, with a 50% reduction in rents; this provision is in effect until the RA meeting following the receipt of the above consultative report. <<
Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew
Jamie Palisades: We have had very few commercial slots owned *by CDS* that are available. Please note that this is due to four things. One part is chance. (plots that happen to open up are more residential.) One is our rather low percentage of land considered commercial. (I propose to change that. See my proposals, at the end.) One is that our foreclosure methods only allow us to take back land 3 full months after it's been unpaid. (Ditto, I will ask you to change this.) And finally, in one case I've actually been at fault, for declining to place the Altstadt land on the market yet. (Arguably that could be "commercial land" too. See my proposal on that topic, also at the end.)
Jamie Palisades: note - that's CDS OWNED land
Jamie Palisades: Now, please note, we also could choose to lower rents on CURRENT commercial land. The RA's amended commerce bill only authorized a change to rent on NEW land OWNED BY CDS .. so has only narrow application. Only the RA can change rents. I suggest we do so, a bit more broadly, as noted at the end.
Jamie Palisades: However, within about two weeks we will have several appropriate commercial plots *owned by CDS* open up, finally.
Jamie Palisades: in other words
Jamie Palisades: the 3 months finally will expire
Jamie Palisades: while we do not taklin public abotu who;s paying rent and who;s not
Jamie Palisades: you can all look at a map and guess
Jamie Palisades: and on about 1 December it will be obvious
Jamie Palisades: that's point two
Jamie Palisades: hm - though I should say
Jamie Palisades: that I also am goign to suggestm, in a moment, SOME discount for CURRENT commercial land
Jamie Palisades: because giving a half off rate to newcomers
Jamie Palisades: and no deal at all to those who HAVE been selling in CDS
Jamie Palisades: just sems to me wrong
Jamie Palisades: ok, point three ...
Jamie Palisades: [Justice's summary:] [point three] >> * Repealed the 8th RA's Commerce bill providing for rent surcharges on commercial property, and indicated that re-examination of legal and other incentives for substantial commercial activity is expected after the earlier of 15 November 2008 or receipt of the above consultative report.
Jamie Palisades: (easy one)
Jamie Palisades: No action needed at this time unless you wish to change rents. I propose that you do, as noted shortly, but only after taking public feedback.
Jamie Palisades: (and finally, another easy one -- then, on to recommendations)
Jamie Palisades: [Justice's summary:] [point four] >> * Provides that no CDS Chamber of Commerce or similar merchants group may exercise any designated advisory powers in CDS matters until it is operating under an NGO charter approved by the RA.
Jamie Palisades: Requires no action -- but I do want to inquire whether the ERa has a view baout the Chamber of Commerce. ...
Jamie Palisades: I do ... my own opinion is that it's not a priority to revivify this until and unless we get better commercial concentration in CDS first.
Jamie Palisades: ...
Jamie Palisades: now then
Jamie Palisades: recommendations
Jamie Palisades: Here are my 4 conclusions, followed by action items
Jamie Palisades: if you disagree witht he conclusions, you definitely should question the wisdom of the proposed actions
Kedwyn Parmelee: /hi
Arria Perreault: you are just a bit fast
Sonja Strom: Hi Kedwyn
Jamie Palisades: Hi. nice to see you pardon me for continuing. first conclusion -
Jamie Palisades: A. Commercial retail activity all over SL is down significantly, and that's only now after about two months or more starting to show in the "official numbers". Which, of course, lag real time transactional experience.. Store owners and vendors are scared, and cautious, and few are expanding.
Jamie Palisades: (Arria I will post all this to the forum ,immediately after this meeting also .. and ...
Justice Soothsayer: I wouldn't worry about JAmie's typing speed, Arria, as I don't think we'll be making decisions on any of his recommendations today, until we have public input.
Jamie Palisades: .. it m=is my suggestion tha the RA at in two weeks, not now, to give time for thought.)
Arria Perreault: ok
Jamie Palisades: exactly so, Justice
Jamie Palisades: heh or of course we could wait months too and, in my viewm sink liek a stone
Jamie Palisades: but that;'s up to the wisdom of the RA
Jamie Palisades: second conclusion
Jamie Palisades: B. SL retail requires someone to take risk. Either a seller as land owner must pay for land and try to recover it in profit ... or a seller gives a vendor to a nonseller land owner, who as "vendor host" or "mall owner" takes the risk, hoping to cover land cost with a percentage of the vendors' shared revenue. Both those strategies depend on sales. Sales depend on sim traffic. Our sim traffic has been lower lately so, except for event-based exceptions, which bring traffic, we do NOT present a good case for incoming investment to retailers. I do not expect that to change in the short range future.
Jamie Palisades: so breathing life into a dead possibility is not so smart
Jamie Palisades: however ...
Jamie Palisades: third conclusion
Jamie Palisades: C. Some models seem to continue to work. One of them is when the land investment that's required is SMALL. I encourage you to go look at the Souk at Al Andalus, where little stalls are thriving. But they are largely occupied by SUBtenants, which we outlaw in CDS.
Jamie Palisades: There are other similar models, but some of you have visited or been interested in AA lately, so it;s a good easy example
Jamie Palisades: final conclusion
Jamie Palisades: D. We rarely know enough about our land being avaialble. Sales happen without much notice even to Sudane as Estate Owner. You will seein NFS and CN that Brian has taken some steps to promote land listings. But we need to do more: the prices and availablility of our land simply is not widely available ... in places that are attractive to buyers .. and the "yellow map" direct sale feature which the RA enacted a year or so ago is rather obviously not moving the land.
Jamie Palisades: which takes us to action items, and here is what I suggest we DO.
Jamie Palisades: and then I;m done thank s for your patience
Jamie Palisades: 1. Several good commercial sites including on the Platz and the CN Forum, will open up shortly. I will place them, on a list of commercial sites, at the 50% reduced rate, by 2 December. I do not plan to include Altstadt, because that will necessarily be the residential gateway to more residential fachwerk land in a sim behind the Schloss ... if we do so, as I suspect we will eventually ... and we have unsatisfied demand for fachwerken already. So I expect to open that as residential land on 2 December or earlier.
Jamie Palisades: and THAT land as CDS-OWNED land wil by your law have the 50% discvount
Jamie Palisades: the commercial land, that is, and not Altstadt
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok...
Jamie Palisades: whic it looks liek we can sell as residential without a discount
Jamie Palisades: 2. rent change for other commercial:
Jamie Palisades: 2. I will also post a list of CURRENT commercial spaces, as we understand them to be designated, along with a spreadsheet showing the cost to CDS of giving those occupied spaces a 25% rent discount. Not the 50% mandated for the new, CDS owned land .. but enough to provide some fairness to current commercial uses. The RA and the comminity shoud see the cost of doing so - thus the posting In doing so I will propose that we distinguish between activity on commercial zones space that does, and does not, sell anything because I as a policy matter see no reason for CDS to offer rent discount to political meeting places and the like. But that is a proposal that you as RA will need to deliberate about, which I will recommend that you do in two weeks.
Jamie Palisades: when I do that
Jamie Palisades: I will also proposed that we designate some sites in LA that way
Jamie Palisades: as there is no commercial land there officially at present
Jamie Palisades: frankly, that's controversial because the obvious commercial land is owned alerady so it woudl line some people's pocket's and not others
Jamie Palisades: so will need your debate
Jamie Palisades: but as i said
Jamie Palisades: I do not think it fir for us to reward new store owners and ignore the peopel today selling in our sims
Jamie Palisades: third
Jamie Palisades: 2. I am unsatisfied that most of the land we ought to repurpose does not come into our hands for months. It's bad business. People can refuse to pay us for three months (lost revenue, empty stores) and THEN we have to try to salvage the space. So it hurts CDS financially as well. I will ask the RA at its next meeting to change the law to permit commercial space to be repossessed four weeks after rent default, and residential space six weeks.
Jamie Palisades: oops "3." not 2
Jamie Palisades: Really, the 3 month thign was ridiculous
Justice Soothsayer: all commercial space, or just those that are sold at a discount?
Jamie Palisades: we get stiffed on rent, ladies and gentlemen
Jamie Palisades: all land
Justice Soothsayer: sorry for the interruption
Jamie Palisades: commercial is commerial, Justice unless you propose to do differently, but honestly, that's also a posisbility
Jamie Palisades: maybe peopel who get the deeper discount are the ones who deserve the shorter term - tiem for the RA to discuss
Jamie Palisades: #4
Jamie Palisades: We need new land software that tells us what's open .. and displays it .. and lets us webify it .. and keeps records
Jamie Palisades: It;s ridiculous to expoect Sudane as a volunteer to do all that
Jamie Palisades: and it;s automatavble
Jamie Palisades: and as she and I and others have discussed, it;s less expensive than that consultant idea we were talking about
Jamie Palisades: so expect a new budget amendment for your next meeting
Jamie Palisades: now frankly
Jamie Palisades: that's an expense i can make without your approval
Jamie Palisades: but I;d ratehr have the debate and blessing - AND
Jamie Palisades: at that time i also think we will want to talk about settign aside bigger reserves
Jamie Palisades: I thin our official approved budget should prpare us for worse financial circumstances
Jamie Palisades: and we shoud look as a substantial patrof our cash reserves as untouchable, as a hedge against
Jamie Palisades: oh, say
Jamie Palisades: crasy Linden price increasee
Jamie Palisades: a world recession
Jamie Palisades: that sort of thins
Jamie Palisades: g
Jamie Palisades: so - buidget amendment plan, two weeks, more software as a one time capital expense, bigger reserves
Jamie Palisades: #5
Jamie Palisades: I want to turn direct sale off.
Jamie Palisades: That's the feature that makes a land parcel appear on the Linden SL map as yellow.
Jamie Palisades: RA turned it on by law about a year ago.
Jamie Palisades: it does NOT givue us the chance to keet and greet new citizens .. impairs it, in fact.
Jamie Palisades: and
Jamie Palisades: it makes us look half empty as opposed to other more market-savvy estates
Jamie Palisades: who keep it turned off
Jamie Palisades: but also are full of vacancies .. or worse than us
Jamie Palisades: but no one knows
Jamie Palisades: so they keep demand up
Jamie Palisades: if we have GOOD efficient listings for real estate
Jamie Palisades: which sioftware lets us do
Jamie Palisades: the yellow-map thing it, I submit, unnecessary, and it;s better for CDS if we stop using it..
Jamie Palisades: note
Jamie Palisades: this is separate from the software decision, but woudl be enabled by it
Jamie Palisades: so it;s at the EARLIEST a feasible topic for mid December
Jamie Palisades: #6 (or 
Jamie Palisades: (of)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... or today, since that's easy
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops sorry
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: Feel free
Jamie Palisades: #6 subtenants
Jamie Palisades: we outlaw them - mostly because our Blessed Founders were worried about absentee landlords and citizenship
Jamie Palisades: I submit that's silly for commercial proporty
Jamie Palisades: so I will suggest we rpeal that prohbition FOR commercial property, or alternaively for small parcels of same ... leaving it clear that the OWNER is a citizen and thus typically eligble to vote
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and the tenant?
Jamie Palisades: Again, go look at the AA Souk and make up your own mind
Jamie Palisades: tenant? naah -- if you all continue to want to keep all nonlandowners out of votinh rigths
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Jamie Palisades: then tenancy doesnl;t really qualify, does it? but wait for #7
Jamie Palisades: heh
Jamie Palisades: #7
Gwyneth Llewelyn: all right, sorry to interrupt, I'll do the comments at the end, this was just a request for clarification on the proposal
Jamie Palisades: I recommend to you that our land vacancies continue in opart to be driven by land concentration and groups
Jamie Palisades: in other words
Jamie Palisades: too many people get what they want (CDS citizenship) without getting us what CDS wants (their rent)
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Jamie Palisades: so U propsoe to you that the I-can-be-a-citizen-forever-and-vote-even-oif-i;m-long-gone-or-have-a-friend-with-a-gruop loophole be CLOSED.
Jamie Palisades: on FISCAK grounds.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear!
Jamie Palisades: I;d love to see a new class of whatever affinity group Friends of CDS, I dunno, GOOD friends
Pip Torok: agree with J and G
Jamie Palisades: but not voters who don't have a stake
Jamie Palisades: and if someday you want to open up voting to ALL, great. but not a buddy system
Jamie Palisades: finally
Jamie Palisades: #8
Jamie Palisades: We need some planning
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: Several of our Guild peopel hav offered to pick back up and update/reevaluate the GMP
Jamie Palisades: this is GREAT
Jamie Palisades: Arria posted today some great analysis of rent-by-the=rpim harmonization
Jamie Palisades: which is GREAT
Jamie Palisades: and I hpe those threads will lead us to some additional rent changes within a month or two
Jamie Palisades: see
The GMP/ vacant land thread started by Timo Guffer here:
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2194
Jamie Palisades: and
Jamie Palisades: Arria's new posting about prim-based rent normalization across CDS sims
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2210
Jamie Palisades: ok
Jamie Palisades: whew
Justice Soothsayer: wow
Jamie Palisades: done, and thanks for yor patience
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was quite a report, thank you very much!
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, I'll take the priviledge of the first question.
Jamie Palisades grins
Arria Perreault: Thank you, Jamie.
Justice Soothsayer: You mentioned AlAndalus briefly; you introduced what I termed a 'humdinger' last time; what's been happening with the idea of joining up with AA?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
Jamie Palisades: I could let Madame Snicker go first if she likes Got an update, gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no, Jamie first... i have no news on that anyway
Jamie Palisades: Alrightly. I thin they are waiting for us now, bluntly -- there's some sympathy for the idea there, and I expect by next wek to have a rent analysis from them that shows feasibility
Jamie Palisades: in the sense of cash flow solvency
Jamie Palisades: which, obviiously, is a condition to this making sense
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks.
Jamie Palisades: next steps? I need ot talk to factions and you about whetehr we can come up with eithe a list of preconditions to ADJOINING without becoming part of CDS (which was discussed, you will recall), or BECOMING part of CDS (which is the local government thing)
Justice Soothsayer: OTher questions for JAmie?
Arria Perreault: but who is our partner in AA?
Jamie Palisades: partner? sorry?
Arria Perreault: yes, I have some remarks on the report
Arria Perreault: whith who can we talk?
Arria Perreault: a kind of ambassador?
Jamie Palisades: that's kidnog liek asking who runs CDS, Arria but I am using the EO, Rose Springvale and their government study group's leader, Micael Khandr
Jamie Palisades: and goign to a nuchn of their open community meetinsg and listening Patroklus came to one also FWIW
Arria Perreault: thank you. Now I have some remarks about your report
Arria Perreault: I don't want to discuss here your conclusions. I'ts too early
Arria Perreault: I have some interrogation about the economical analysis you've made
Arria Perreault: I think that the SL economy is very different of the RL economy
Justice Soothsayer: yes, CDS doesn't mean"collateralized debt security"
Arria Perreault: I am not sure that people who open a shop here expect a reward
Jamie Palisades: heh heh
Arria Perreault: open a shop in SL is also a way to show what we are able to do
Arria Perreault: I suspect some fashion designer to do so
Arria Perreault: I think also that SL has a "long train" economy
Arria Perreault: not so related to traffic than to good meta-data on land
Jamie Palisades: interestig
Gwyneth Llewelyn: long *tail I guess
Arria Perreault: et don't forget also the website like SL-exchange
Arria Perreault: tail* yes
Arria Perreault: a lot of people don't buy in-world
Jamie Palisades: yes, which gives no revenue to land owners like Amazon to a land bookstore
Arria Perreault: theyy don't come in the shop
Arria Perreault: yes
Arria Perreault: we have to take this in account
Arria Perreault: I have always told that one of the condition of a good economy is CDS is to give to people the opportunity to learn to createthings
Kedwyn Parmelee: gaaa online business suffering from ppl buying online :/
Arria Perreault: to give them good conditions to work
Jamie Palisades: If I may, ARria, the bill passed by this RA dictated the 50% rent discount -- you may wish to re-visit that, if you're right that land pricing is not the issue
Sonja Strom: :\
Arria Perreault: for example, we don't have a good sandbox
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sandbox...?
Arria Perreault: yes, in sandbox, you can created complex objects
Jamie Palisades: (well we have a litle space provided by Jon Seattle, but I take your point - people who "live" here have to go elsewhere for some activities)
Arria Perreault: it's a private action
Arria Perreault: we have skilled people but not a list of all what they do or sell elsewhere
Jamie Palisades points to http://secondlife.wikia.com/wiki/Sandbox
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria, are you suggesting that we add a website for merchants to show their wares? Like a fashion blog or something, just for CDS merchants?
Arria Perreault: I just want to say that SL economy is quiet complex
Arria Perreault: done
Jamie Palisades: What I am hearing from Arria is that, if we raise quality of life, that more than price changes will improve our condition, and I completely agree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I agree too of course
Gwyneth Llewelyn: everybody will be dropping prices; we need to add value
Justice Soothsayer: I am also hearing from Arria is the statement that commerce may be more than *sales*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... which is the way to go really
Arria Perreault: we have room, we have the Faculty, ....
Jamie Palisades: Justice, we have a broad definition already that I think covers all that, as to land ... but it might be well to ask how we best promote an SL "service economy"
Justice Soothsayer: Other questions/comments in respondes to Jamie's report?
Pip Torok: dont forget the value in the "look-and-feel" of the CDS sims FWIW
Gwyneth Llewelyn has a few questions yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Pip, the 'theme' and the urban planning are important)
Sonja Strom raises hand
Justice Soothsayer: Your turn, Gwyn, then Sonja.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's rather impossible for me to summarise all the questions here hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the report was awesomely detailed, thank you for that, Jamie
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, some things I can immediately agree.
Jamie Palisades: Gywn? we will take it all to the forums too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - close the loophole for instance
Justice Soothsayer: Nearly as long as some of your blog posts, Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - increase the visibility of plots (ie. disallow listing on LL's in-world thingy) and that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ha yes Justice!)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now I understand thatg the major reasons for 'tenancy' (rentals) are:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - no startup costs for future shop owners. It makes sense. Let them experiment, etc and just pay a monthly fee.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - getting a more uniform model with what AA is doing. So, sort of 'paving the way'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the problems are not just 'historical', Jamie, but rather more intricate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You see, citizenship is tied to land ownership ? because it's something that the CDS is able to *enforce*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Land has value ? so substantiating our laws on the ability to prevent access to land is what the CDS can do
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rentals have several problems...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The renter will need to abide by CDS laws,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but the CDS will be unable to enforce that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since it's the landlord who holds an 'enforceable asset'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we can ban the renter, sure, but...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... he'd just go elsewhere, as soon as they feel our laws to be "restrictive"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They also don't feel 'being part of the CDS'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I'm allowed a small allegory, which is a bit 'forced',
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the CDS is 'feudal' in a sense: land is important
Arria Perreault: I know examples of people who are only interested to open a shop without being citizen
Gwyneth Llewelyn: renters would be like barons pledging allegiance to their counts and earls, and not to the king
Gwyneth Llewelyn: a major issue with feudality ? you can't build 'nations' if there is no direct sense of involvement with the 'governing body'
Jamie Palisades listens with interest, and notes we'll have a chance to develop this in the forums .. but also that it's only proposed for the minor fraction of land officially commercial .. and (grinning) that the empirical experiment might be more important than the (longplaying) political philosophy issues ... personally that line has always sounded to me like "CDS only wants our own kind selling here", more than a royalist approach
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so... *if* we introduce rentals,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'll have to use a model accomplishing that.
Jamie Palisades: "how do we empower renters politically" is a godo question .. IF they want to be .. or IF we're willing to exclude all those who don;t
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn, I hate to cut you off... but I;m going to have to cut you off in the interest of time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, the empirical experiment is something I'll consider, if there is a sunset clause, and we introduce a metric ? how many of the renters become effectively citizens after, say, a term?
Justice Soothsayer: I agree with Jamie that we may move the philosophical discussion off to the forum.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok. Well
Jamie Palisades: Justice I will, as I said, take all this to the web forums for more chat at leisure
Justice Soothsayer: Sonja had a question/comment?
Sonja Strom: I just wanted to bring up a thought in relation to what Arria was saying.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs* it's all about money & philosophy, I'm definitely against turning the CDS into a mall )
Sonja Strom: Maybe somehow we could do more with the sandbox Jon Seattle is currently providing for the community.
Sonja Strom: It is a very nice thing for us to have.
Sonja Strom: I'm not sure what would be best to do, but I thought I would mention the thought.
Sonja Strom: That is all I wanted to say, thanks.
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Sonja.
Justice Soothsayer: Any others?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: i understand there is going tol be a proposal for a new Land managent Tool, right?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *to be
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *management
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, you've given us a lot to chew over, and I trust we will have some specific legislation for consideration in the near future.
Justice Soothsayer: I'll encourage all to regularly consult the forums between our meetings.
Jamie Palisades nods
Gwyneth Llewelyn: smiles
Justice Soothsayer: We have report from New Guild next on our agenda, but Moon isnt here; does anyone else have anything for us from Guild?
Jamie Palisades: Justice?
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: Very briefly, I have heard that several - including Tiomo here's who;e been a great recent contributor - are bringing the GMP work back up for a look . Maybe Arria knows more, though
Jamie Palisades: *Timo
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Arria's thread on land fees per prim is worth reviewing; whats the URL again, Arria?
Gwyneth Llewelyn likes that concept, specially as a means to harmonise pricing across the CDS
Arria Perreault: yes
Jamie Palisades: [9:53] You: Arria's new posting about prim-based rent normalization across CDS sims
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2210
Timo Gufler: I think GMP has not been actively worked by the New Guild yet
Arria Perreault: well I have finally make these calculation by myself
Arria Perreault: I have realized that the GMP don't need so many void sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Arria Perreault: and the ones wich are needed can easely be paid with my proposal of calculation
Arria Perreault: and right, it will give more transparency and harmonization in pricing
Jamie Palisades: hm - and of course, Arria, there also was a proposal that maybe there is a class of activity for which we SHOULD discount rents, and it's cultural not retail
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Arria Perreault: In my post, I told that it is possible possible to have several prims prices: low density sims, high density sims, commercial activities and NGO
Arria Perreault: we have to make a policy on that matter
Arria Perreault: I think that it could be a useful management tool for CDS
Justice Soothsayer: We didn't set a date for a report on the prim pricing. Should we do so?
Arria Perreault: no, we did not
Jamie Palisades: Hmm. Do you want something FROM Guild? Sent there and then back here? or what?
Arria Perreault: I will see the reaction of the Guild
Justice Soothsayer: we asked guild to review and recommend pricing models
Jamie Palisades: ah THAT one
Justice Soothsayer: actually, Guild + Executive
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly.
Jamie Palisades: OK, sorry thought you were talking about new Arria calcs
Arria Perreault: yes, and I hae contacted the different persons to offer my help
Jamie Palisades: ask for it by next RA meeting? best guess off the top of my head
Justice Soothsayer: I think Arria was providing a little jump start to that process with her very valuable post.
Arria Perreault: but the calculation was not yet ready
Arria Perreault: it's my goal
Justice Soothsayer: I'll leave report from the Guild on next meeting's agenda and gently encourage a report by then.
Jamie Palisades: Justice, with apologies, for being the cause of the long meeting, I'll need to log off fairly soon today,
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn, anything to report from Electoral COmmission?
Arria Perreault: thank you Jamie, for your report
Jamie Palisades: /m nods, listens
Justice Soothsayer: Understood, Jamie
Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn is a little quiet, maybe worn out from the Chancellor's report.
Sonja Strom: hahaa!~
Sonja Strom: She is digesting it
Bells Semyorka: lol
Justice Soothsayer: So I'll move on to new business.
Jamie Palisades passes out antacid tablets
Justice Soothsayer: I posted a proposal for an amendment to permit the RA to elect a leader pro tem.
Justice Soothsayer: As sponsor, I'm of course willing to pass it immediately [grin] but I suppose we should have some discussion.
Jamie Palisades the former LRA whispers "yaaaaaaaaay"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry, nothing to report; nobody appeared at the past 2 Saturdays, and yesterday it was my turn to be unavailable)
Jamie Palisades: (yay to the idea, discussion or no)
Justice Soothsayer: I just want to add to my forum post that (a) I don't have anyone in mind for the job and (b) I have no plans to leave the LRA post but think it would be helpful to have backup in the event of such things as power outages.
Bells Semyorka: sorry to inturrupt everyone, but I have ot be leaving now, RL is calling. Hope to see everyone soon. Ciao
Justice Soothsayer: And thanks, Gwyn, for the report.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sadly not a promising one...
Justice Soothsayer: Bye Bells, we are nearly finished, I think.
Justice Soothsayer: So comments on the proposed amendment?
Jamie Palisades: Justice, may I briefly?
Arria Perreault: Is it a vice-LRA?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, "acting LRA"
Sonja Strom raises hand
Justice Soothsayer: yes, sort of, Arria, but not picked in the same way as the LRA.
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie first, then Sonja.
Jamie Palisades: I'll just say before I poof that it's great you are working on a solution to this problem, which often stymied us in the past. Cheers
Arria Perreault: is it "pro term" ?
Justice Soothsayer: "pro tem" from the latin "pro tempore", or "for the temporary".
Arria Perreault: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades smiles and waves
Kedwyn Parmelee: \o
Justice Soothsayer: bye Jamie, thanks.
Sonja Strom: Given our experience in the RA last term, I think this bill is a brilliant and simple solution to the problem of a missing LRA. It solves many, if not all, of the concerns that came up for us in this area last term.
Sonja Strom: That is all, thanks
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks, Sonja.
Justice Soothsayer: I'll note that this is a constitutional amendment and thus takes 4 yes votes in the RA to pass. Do you want to vote on it now, or hold it to the next meeting?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine in voting it...
Arria Perreault: me too
Justice Soothsayer: wait.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe ok
Justice Soothsayer is not a math major
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we should copy & paste the text on what we're voting for though
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (just as a reference in the transcript)
Justice Soothsayer: "The RA can amend the constitution with a 2/3 vote."
Justice Soothsayer: That means we need 5 votes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes hmm
Justice Soothsayer: and there are only 4 of us here now
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah right; bells left
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I guess we'll postpone it to next meeting?
Justice Soothsayer: So we will hold this for next meeting. I am proposing the following Constitutional Amendment to add the following sentence to the end of Article I, Section 3:
"The Representative Assembly may elect one of its members to serve as Leader pro tem who may act as Leader in the event of the absence of the Leader or if the position of Leader is vacant."
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with the txt as it stands.
Arria Perreault: ok
Justice Soothsayer: Meanthile, comments are welcome on the forum.
Pip Torok: im happy with that text
Justice Soothsayer: On to "open discussion"
Arria Perreault: I am too
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks for the support.
Arria Perreault: (maybe explane the "pro tem")
Pip Torok: one point of open discussion ONLY ... can i float an idea?
Justice Soothsayer: Sure, Pip.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure!
Arria Perreault: yes
Pip Torok: the sim paths tend to get clutterd with notices that MAY become outofdate quickly ... therefore .. when any notice is put down on a cds sim ... a _take-away-date is is appended to the notice, and the bralking of the take-away must be justified
Pip Torok: *breaking
Sonja Strom: I think that's a great idea!
Sonja Strom: Any sign, really.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: verey good point, yes!
Pip Torok: i propose that we think about it for 14 days ... then i come up with legislation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, good point!
JuGwyneth Llewelyn: Actually it could just be an "Executive Act"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but it doesn't hurtg to have is at a Law.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *hut
Gwyneth Llewelyn: grrr
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *hurt
Pip Torok: ie it doesnt involve the RA?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, 'janitor duties' are part of the Exec's
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but of course hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if we (the RA) feels that the Exec is not doing their job properly, we can reinforce the idea with a law
Pip Torok: so its an extention of an execs janitor duties
Pip Torok: or rather a regularisation of them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, a bit!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes,m a clarification/regularisation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We might find the law that describes the janitor duties,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and add it as an amendment perhaps...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 'another bullet point on the list of janitor duties'
Sonja Strom hopes that the members of the RA will simply IM the janitorial duties person before enacting legislation
Pip Torok: good idea!
Arria Perreault:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: practical as always, Sonja ;9
Sonja Strom:
Justice Soothsayer: Any other items before we adjourn?
Sonja Strom: I have one little idea about Justice's bill. Maybe instead of "pro tem," the bill could say "pro tempore."
Sonja Strom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_tempore
Arria Perreault: just for non-professional
Justice Soothsayer: OK
Sonja Strom: I understood it how it was, but that way might be more clear.
Pip Torok: im happy ... common usage is clear on both pro tem and pro tempore
Justice Soothsayer: either way is fine with me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe or "acting LRA"
Sonja Strom: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I'm fine with "pro tem" if you prefer.
Justice Soothsayer: just be careful of what you vote for, yu might get picked for the job.
Sonja Strom: "play acting LRA"
Pip Torok: now now!!
Sonja Strom: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Arria Perreault: as we are a half roman comunity, we can have the complete latine expression
Justice Soothsayer: OK, we are at 2 hours, with other events @ 11, so it is now time to adjourn.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok mmmh since the Guild is going to meet soon, I suggest that we thinbk about adjourning...?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww... yes, I second that lol
Arria Perreault: I second
Gwyneth Llewelyn is a slow typist!
Sonja Strom: hehee
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks all for coming. We are now adjourned.
The meeting closed at 11:2 Linden time.