Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1
Region: Colonia Nova (246528, 250112)
Local-Position: (13, 166, 41)
Meeting on 2008-12-07
Those present:
Justice Soothsayer is in the chair.
Rubaiyat Shatner has indicated consent to be recorded.
Arria Perreault has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Rubaiyat Shatner: I have to warn y'all that the machine I am on locks up periodically. It usually comes back but idt does freeze on my end on occasion
Gwyneth Llewelyn: don't worry,Rubaiyat, it looks just like SL at its best 
Justice Soothsayer: Please touch the notecard dispenser on the table for the agenda
Justice Soothsayer: also at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... &sk=t&sd=a
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: Please also touch the recording device on the table to indicate your consent to recording.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Here comes Ranma 
Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Long time, no see!
Justice Soothsayer: Is the proposed agenda acceptable?
Ranma Tardis: good afternoon
Justice Soothsayer: Hi Pip, Ranma.
Justice Soothsayer: Ranma, nice to see you are back in the CDS.
Pip Torok: hi everyone
Ranma Tardis: I was waiting for a Alpine lot to become available
Justice Soothsayer: Any changes to the proposed agenda?
Gwyneth Llewelyn is re-checking the references on the forums
Rubaiyat Shatner: not from me
Moon Adamant: hi Ranma, wb back
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe that we will take waaaaay long on points III. 4. and 5. (they're really closely tied together); I'm fine with the rest, though!
Justice Soothsayer: RA rules require that I ask if anyone not on the RA wants to sign up to speak to any of the agenda items; Moon, of course we'll have you on the Guild report.
Moon Adamant: yes
Justice Soothsayer: As to future meetings, we are scheduled to meet again in 2 weeks on 14 December.
Justice Soothsayer: uh, 21 December.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah...
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Fine by me.
Justice Soothsayer: So January 4th and 18th, I suppose.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Justice Soothsayer: This means that the Sunday mornings we are not meeting are free for informal Kaffklatches or other events.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
Justice Soothsayer: Or sleeping in.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmmh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sleeping, yay
Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
Justice Soothsayer: OK, on to old business.
Justice Soothsayer: LAst time we discussed the LRA pro tempore proposal but at the end of the meeting didn't have enough present to take a vote.
Justice Soothsayer: Any further discussion today?
Gwyneth Llewelyn counts RA members
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We're 5, right?
Arria Perreault: not for me
Rubaiyat Shatner: none from me either
Moon Adamant: i believe you're quorate
Jamie Palisades waits to rez
Gwyneth Llewelyn also hasn't anything to add; we've discussed it thoroughly last week
Moon Adamant: hi Jamie
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh hello Jamie
Arria Perreault: Hi Jamie
Jamie Palisades: Cheers all.
Jamie Palisades has indicated consent to be recorded.
Justice Soothsayer: I'll just add that based on our discussion I've changed the title to "pro tempore"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, as described on the forums...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can I propose that we vote on the motion to introduce the "LRA pro tempore" as a Constitutional change?
Justice Soothsayer: So the vote is on the proposed constitutional amendment as amended. Please state your vote.
Gwyneth Llewelyn votes aye
Pip Torok: aye
Rubaiyat Shatner: aye
Justice Soothsayer votes aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn tickles Arria
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Arria Perreault: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Justice Soothsayer: Motion carries. Anyone interested in the job?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "[...] who may act as Leader in the event of the ABSENCE of the Leader" ... but... you're here, now!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, nice try, Justice
Justice Soothsayer: note that we "may" elect the LRA pro tem, not that we have to.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it was an interesting way to put it.
Justice Soothsayer: We could always elect someone who isnt here. [grin]
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's mean
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You'd have to leave...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and THEN we could do it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: II.- b)?
Justice Soothsayer: No, we could elect someone even if I'm here; I'll put this on the agenda for next meeting. Absent RA members reading the transcript, note that you could be selected if you don't show up!
Justice Soothsayer: So we are now on II. b., Report from New Guild. Moon, you have the floor.
Moon Adamant: thanks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, right; we CAN electthem; but they will only be pro tem LRA *if* you don't show up
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry Moon
Moon Adamant: NG has been keeping the most regular meetings it can, and we have been focusing on Winter Holidays preparations of late
Moon Adamant: we are standing by
Moon Adamant: to know the political decisions of this RA and/of the Chancellor as regards Expansi0on strategies
Jamie Palisades raises his hand for a Guild question when Moon's done
Moon Adamant: so we can resume our main hmmm tasks when needed
Moon Adamant: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: Moon, there was some talk on the forums, and at the last RA meeting, and just ambient among individuals about further work on the GMP. Is there a committee, or some such? Or to where would I go to engage a chat about GMP evolution?
Moon Adamant: well, the GMP is by nature a WIP
Moon Adamant: since it needs to be actualized at each expansion moment
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (gosh, don't you just LOVE those acronyms? )
Jamie Palisades grins at the diplomat-by-heritage and her TLAs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
Moon Adamant: i have no info about a comittee to review the GMP at this time
Moon Adamant: specially, as said, we are waiting for your political directions to what regards territory
Moon Adamant: does that help?
Jamie Palisades smiles - may I suggest that I come to a Guild meeting and chat about opossible interest in forming some specific questions or new supplemental inquiries? I suspect there is an Alphonse & Gaston issue here
Arria Perreault: I have a question too
Arria Perreault: The RA has asked for some calculations about fees
Moon Adamant: I would suggest that a decision be taken regarding territorial expansion and side issues and then a commitee would be set in motion
Moon Adamant: Yes Arria
Moon Adamant: i don't have information either if they are ready yet or not... this time of the year is a bit busy
Moon Adamant: iRL, i mean
Arria Perreault: I have started to make these calculation . I wuld like to know if and Sudane, you have continue this work?
Moon Adamant: Jamie, you will be welcome at a Guild meeting for that
Arria Perreault: if you and Sudane*
Jamie Palisades: Let's see - just a second ARria, juist to finish my first Q first -- Moon, I think I hear you say that the guild can or will do nothing until it received more detail?
Justice Soothsayer: Moon, there isn't a specific expansion proposal on the RA table right now, but I think we are all concerned about the tremors of the SL economy and the RL economy and whether those recent shocks should cause us to re-evaluate the GMP.
Moon Adamant: I haven't myself, due to RL work deadlines
Moon Adamant: Justice, i understand that
Moon Adamant: what i think is
Moon Adamant: first of all, we need the numbers that Arria has mentioned
Jamie Palisades: ((I will rteun to Arria's but want to hear this first one))
Moon Adamant: then the CDS must choose a territorial strategy
Moon Adamant: then, and only then, a GMP committee can start working, since it needs premises to work from
Arria Perreault: yes, but we need the datas to decide
Moon Adamant: yes, but they aren't available yet
Moon Adamant: at least to my knowledge
Arria Perreault: we will miss the possibility to buy a void sim at current price
Moon Adamant: well
Moon Adamant: NG relies on volunteer work, i am afraid
Jamie Palisades waits politely
Moon Adamant: we will gladly accept all help offered
Moon Adamant: Jamie?
Arria Perreault: I have offered mine since long time
Jamie Palisades: Moon, two threads if I may
Moon Adamant: yes
Jamie Palisades: first to Arria's
Jamie Palisades: I do not know what's left in those calculations either
Jamie Palisades: but we will chat about it at the Guild mtg
Jamie Palisades: and it is hoped, with some patience for our volunteers
Jamie Palisades: on the other thread
Jamie Palisades: well - hm no
Jamie Palisades: staying with that first for one more point
Jamie Palisades: I rspectfulyl disagree with one small suggestion Arria made just now
Jamie Palisades: the land market in void sims is low
Jamie Palisades: and going lower
Jamie Palisades: and our moving this week, versus next, respectfully,
Jamie Palisades: does not seem likely to miss a barain
Jamie Palisades: *bargain\
Jamie Palisades: in fact I am more worrid about whether voids will prove stable and usable as a product at all
Jamie Palisades: NOW to 2d point
Jamie Palisades: on the GMP
Moon Adamant: indeed
Arria Perreault: it felt a calculation for the whole GMP as it is today
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Yes.
Jamie Palisades: Moon,I would like to ask the Guild somem focused questions
Moon Adamant listens
Jamie Palisades: so hat we do NOT get into a permanent cuycle of each waiting for the other so let;'s try that
Moon Adamant: perfect
Moon Adamant: we had only info points in the agenda today
Jamie Palisades: mostly around the feasibility of having change options around the prior plans to use voids
Jamie Palisades: and placement
Jamie Palisades: and terraforming constraints
Jamie Palisades: thx
Justice Soothsayer: and financial considerations too, Jamie.
Moon Adamant: we can start that discussion today, but i would like Symo to be present, so most possibly it will carry to next week
Arria Perreault: I can add a remark to Jamie's remark
Gwyneth Llewelyn hands out duelling swords
Justice Soothsayer: time for 1 more comment, Arria, then we need to move on.
Arria Perreault: I do n't want to hurry the purchase of a void
Arria Perreault: I think nevertherless that voids can be useful in a general land management for an organization like ours
Arria Perreault: the calculations I have made show clearly that we can finance them
Arria Perreault: done
Justice Soothsayer: Well, Arria, I think that's exactly what we're asking Guild to provide input on, whether the voids still fit into the GMP.
Moon Adamant: The thing is
Justice Soothsayer: at east, that's part of what we are asking Guild for input on.
Moon Adamant: the GMP assumes the existence of voids
Moon Adamant: but it also assumes the concept of densities
Moon Adamant: there's the need of verification
Moon Adamant: if the new LL products
Jamie Palisades coughs - ((take it to Guild kids)) and smiles
Moon Adamant: will allow us to conform to density factors
Moon Adamant: indeed Jamie
Moon Adamant: done
Justice Soothsayer: OK, thnks Moon.
Justice Soothsayer: Let's move on to new business.
Justice Soothsayer: I tried to distill Jamie's action items into 5 points for our discussion today.
Justice Soothsayer: Although they somewhat interrelate, let's try to stick to them one at a time, please.
Jamie Palisades: Justice.
Jamie Palisades: Might I say a few words?
Jamie Palisades: Mostly by way of apology
Justice Soothsayer: Please do, Jamie.
Jamie Palisades: Let me just first apologize to all for my being quite slow in SL, in mostly all regards, the last two weeks.
Jamie Palisades: A number of RL matters have kept me far more occupied than I expected. ...
Jamie Palisades: SO while this is a virtual world and a 'second' one, it still is a good thign to keep our commitments - and I had promised to bring you some drafts earlier than I did, so please accept my apologies.
Jamie Palisades: Drafts of what I thought were the two more pressing issues ...
Jamie Palisades: have, just today, been posted in the Legislaive Discussion CDS forum page, as linked here:
Jamie Palisades: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 214#p12417
Gwyneth Llewelyn goes and reads
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. Two bills
Jamie Palisades: and these are about land sales (the yellow map thing) and land reclaimation (method of forcelosing and taking back land when rent is not paid)
Jamie Palisades: well, gwyn, thery're usually easier to disuss that way
Jamie Palisades: and I might mahke a brief verbal report about one other of the five items
Jamie Palisades: commercial land
Jamie Palisades: so Justice, I have something concrete to offer on three of your five
Jamie Palisades: done
Justice Soothsayer: And on budget?
Justice Soothsayer: Anything specific yet?
Jamie Palisades: oh I fully expect to seek to raise reserves - but we can cover that when you take that one up - and i need two conversations to put number to it which unfortunately didn;t happen over the US holiday
Jamie Palisades: but let;s hit each of the five, get everyone;s take, still, if you like
Jamie Palisades: (and I can tell you why Im not worried in the interim)
Justice Soothsayer: Personally, I don't thnik we should vote on any of these today; we need to have the legislation posted with enough time to gather input from citizens.
Jamie Palisades: I completely agree
Justice Soothsayer: But we can discuss them, as the transcript may be helpful to inform the forum discussion(s).
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure... I'm still reading the first one
Justice Soothsayer: SO let's start with the first: accellerating repossession of unpaid land.
Jamie Palisades pages back to see the order of topics Justice proposed
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Justice Soothsayer: (first on our agenda, that is)
Jamie Palisades: right- thx - link to my draft here:
Jamie Palisades: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 217#p12415
Jamie Palisades: if I may: you always learn thigns when you write legislation
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles
Jamie Palisades: the emphemeral ideas must be made whole, and sensible one hopes
Justice Soothsayer: How much of a bath have we been taking on unpaid rents?
Moon Adamant raises hand, would like to speak a propos
Jamie Palisades: and also retrofitted into everything else
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, the Land Sales Reclamation Act is fine for me. Strong measures, rough ones, but, in general, I cannot find any major fault with it
Jamie Palisades smiles When it;s appriproate I will be happy to share what I learned by drafting this
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even no "minor faults", at least not from a first read...
Jamie Palisades: And I can try to answer JS's question when you like
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Point 6. is actually a good one, jamie, or it would be a loophole
Jamie Palisades: though some will need to come from sudance
Jamie Palisades listens
Gwyneth Llewelyn would like to listen to a) jamie's answer to justice; and b) what you've learned
Pip Torok: one question I have ....
Pip Torok: Isa there provision for a citizen to pay his tier _early_ (he may be away on holiday and be unable to at due date)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *good* point, Pip! I'm pretty sure that Sudane did that in the past, manually
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we'll have to specifically ask her how it's done these days.
Jamie Palisades smiles
Pip Torok: yes ... but mistakes can happen ... how does this proposed address this situation?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if you pay more than what the system tells you to pay, it goes into a "credit"...
Jamie Palisades raises his hand
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm well, Pip, you're right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and sorry, jamie
Pip Torok: *proposed bill
Moon Adamant keeps her hand raised
Jamie Palisades: let me try and toss out a few answers? but we can wait for moon's Qs too i guess
Justice Soothsayer: fortunately the wings provide some lift to Moon's arm. Jamie, please go ahead, then we'll come back to Moon.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Jamie Palisades: righto
Jamie Palisades: 3 items
Jamie Palisades: a. to Justice -- we lose two things
Jamie Palisades: one is rent, tangibly, as the average nonpauyer goes several months (3) and THEN defaults -- so without doing math too much, if 15% of our land is defaulted, we lose 2 months (or one sixth of the years income) on that 15 percent
Jamie Palisades: and we could ask Sudane for more arithmetic estimates -- but the other reason's actualll more complelling to me
Jamie Palisades: (and our current software does NOT log history so her estimate would be just that, as well)
Jamie Palisades: the other issue is that we have desirable dead land sitting round for three months
Jamie Palisades: this last month, for example
Jamie Palisades: I have had at least four inquires
Jamie Palisades: on land I know will default
Jamie Palisades: but can;t sell
Jamie Palisades: and neitehr will the absent/dead owners
Jamie Palisades: 
Jamie Palisades: so I actually see it as even more of a lost citizenship opportunity than revenue opportunity
Jamie Palisades: though the rent matters
Jamie Palisades: fone on JS's point
Jamie Palisades: as to Pip's
Jamie Palisades: I completely agree about prepayment
Gwyneth Llewelyn: me too
Jamie Palisades: we had plans in CDS some years ago for a more ambitious software system
Jamie Palisades: some may recall the only automated DB-driven land listing pages on neufreistadt.info
Jamie Palisades: in a nutshell, did not work out
Arria Perreault: Well, I think that we have to discuss this Bill with the perspective of "land owning makes citizenship" principle
Jamie Palisades: we SHOLD have a system that allows prepayment without requiring human treasurer to do manual stuff
Jamie Palisades:
Pip Torok: 110% agree
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Arria: oh yes.
Jamie Palisades: Arri's it my hope that we will disuss that, but my belief that the two policy issues do not need to be frozen together like conjoined twins
Arria Perreault: in rl, people who don't pay taxes can vote
Justice Soothsayer: OK, Moon, I think it's your turn.
Moon Adamant: thank you
Justice Soothsayer: (Arria, actually, in th eUS, poll taxes are unconstitutional)
Moon Adamant: just to say that i support this bill
Moon Adamant: namely because of the yellow map question
Arria Perreault: the concept of 'provisional citizen' is shocking
Moon Adamant: specifically
Moon Adamant: about CN
Moon Adamant: we have 1/4th of the city that is currently occupied by one single build
Moon Adamant: overlapping several parcels
Moon Adamant: now, this, in my opinion, is deterrent for buyers
Moon Adamant: Reclaiming the land there will allow us to re-deploy the parcels and get them occupied
Moon Adamant: done
Justice Soothsayer: thanks, Moon
Justice Soothsayer: Anyone else on this topic? I(land repossession)
Jamie Palisades: Justice?
Ranma Tardis: may I speak?
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie first, then Ranma.
Arria Perreault: I have some remarks
Justice Soothsayer: then Arria.
Jamie Palisades: OK thx
Jamie Palisades: Just these two things
Jamie Palisades: First, I think we will get more citizen comment - from forum posting - and that's good.
Jamie Palisades: Second, i do want to mention that i tried to write the other concept we'd discussed two weks ago here -- and did NOT include it
Jamie Palisades: that was a QUICKER foreclosure of 'commercial' land
Jamie Palisades: I can share the policy concerns if someone wants to hear it - after the meeting too if you wish - but in short, it did not work well, in my first attempt, so I left it out. Thanks, done.
Justice Soothsayer: Ranma.
Ranma Tardis: I would like to point out looking at the map that a lack of available land is turning away possible citizens. I had to wait for an Alpine lot since CN lots did not appeal to me. Thus the CDS is losing both income and new citizens, Thank you
Justice Soothsayer: Arria.
Justice Soothsayer: Thanks Ranma. Glad you are back.
Arria Perreault: My commet about: Land Sales Reclamation Act 2008 point 3 & 4 ('provisional citizen' and public list of 'provisional citizen')
Arria Perreault: I finf these ideas shocking
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We might need better names...
Arria Perreault: find*
Jamie Palisades: um
Jamie Palisades: Arria?
Arria Perreault: no ... the idea is shocking
Arria Perreault: not the names
Jamie Palisades: CURRENT law gives a citizen two months of provisional citizen status (which means, yes citizen, but no vote)
Jamie Palisades: I was proposing only to make it shortly, really
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Arria Perreault: I don't tink that people lose their right to vote because they don't pay their taxes
Jamie Palisades: ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: Arria, what do you think should make someone lose their vote?
Pip Torok: Arria cd you specify any one asepcts which particularly shock?
Jamie Palisades: If they leave CDS?
Arria Perreault: and a public list is not a good idea: I consider these datas as confidential
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welllllllllllllllllll Arria, you know what that means.... get 150 citizens to buy a tiny plot at the start of a new term, then they all drop the payments, and all will vote at the next elections...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In this regard, the CDS actually works pretty much like a regular association ? while you pay your membership fees, you have full rights, and are allowed to vote and get elected.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don't pay them, and you're out ? but not forgotten
Gwyneth Llewelyn: As Jamie pointed out, we *already* work like that, but with 2 months of non-payment
Jamie Palisades: ((let me hold aside the issue of private financial information, which is a good one, for now.)) Arria, if we changed the law so that citizens can vote until the day they lose ther land permanently, would that make it more acceptable to you? (In other worse, remove the 'provision' middle classification)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah.
Arria Perreault: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so the idea is that there are no "second-class citizens":
Gwyneth Llewelyn: either they ARE citizens, or not. Ok. I like that better too
Arria Perreault: yes
Jamie Palisades: ok, well then, that is somethign for us to consider revising
Gwyneth Llewelyn: /no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All right, I'll second Arria's request to change that
Jamie Palisades: I am not sure there is a severe difference if it's only one month in arrears
Jamie Palisades: shoudl we talk briefly about the privacy issue, or not?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure.
Arria Perreault: I think also that this bill is maybe the opportunity to change the way we become citizen and the way we are not anymore citizen
Justice Soothsayer: Yes,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha yes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades smiles at arria and nods
Arria Perreault: now poeple deal only with the treasurer
Jamie Palisades: as for privacy I see no probable issue: here is why - we do not share ANY information about who pays or not
Jamie Palisades: but when we make the voter liusts for every election
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah
Jamie Palisades: the 'provisional citizens' are excluded, because our law says we must
Arria Perreault: this must not be explicit
Jamie Palisades: so I put that sentence in the bill, to make sure wer are not blamed for revealding someone as a provision citizen ... of course, if you eliminate the category, no problem
Pip Torok: but youd support an _implicit_ showing
Jamie Palisades: then you will have only an election law issue
Jamie Palisades grins at the elections commission chairlady
Gwyneth Llewelyn *coughs*
Gwyneth Llewelyn *covers her eyes*
Justice Soothsayer: So in our current case, the names of citixzens are pbulished, but the names of "provisional" citizens are not.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Justice...
Jamie Palisades: which is whether a voter ON the rolls when first posted should be left on, or removed, at balloting time if they reach final default in the interim
Jamie Palisades: that is exactly correct Justice
Arria Perreault: well giving way to guess is like a publication
Jamie Palisades: but you can interpolate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: namely, looking at the list of plot owners and the list of citizens that are allowed to vote, and see who's missing
Arria Perreault: I think that we have to find another way to work
Justice Soothsayer: OK, I think tim eis just about up on this topic. Do you want to continue discussion now, or on the forums?
Arria Perreault: I can write my position in the forum, as it goes much further
Justice Soothsayer: On to budget, then?
Jamie Palisades: that's #2?
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie mentioned that he would like to propose amending the budget to drop expenditure for commercial development consultant, pay for a new land management system, and tighten our reserves.
Justice Soothsayer: Did I get that right, JAmie?
Jamie Palisades smiles nods, waits his turn.
Justice Soothsayer: Go ahead, Jamie.
Jamie Palisades: As to sodtware, i want the RA to see the price and proposed features before we purchase. Thus, adding it to the budget to make it explicit. As to reserves ...
Jamie Palisades: I want us to have enough banked to ride out two things.
Jamie Palisades: and need two imrpovements to the numbes which I just haev not been able to yet produce, sorry about that ---
Jamie Palisades: but the risks are easy to state
Jamie Palisades: one is, a doubling of defaults by citizens
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
Jamie Palisades: as we should be safe against a worsing in the economy
Jamie Palisades: not sayign it will happen saying I want us to be happily solvent if it did
Jamie Palisades: second is
Jamie Palisades: LL repricing the sim tier
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Jamie Palisades grins wryly - they're funny that way sometimes, as you may have read
Jamie Palisades: so for example
Jamie Palisades: what if our USD 195 sims get upped to USD 295?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, good point, it might happen...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: When Class 6 servers are introduced...
Jamie Palisades: or the standard USD 295 price goes up .. now that we've learned two things about LL that make that a likely possibility
Justice Soothsayer: Indeed, it could.
Jamie Palisades: one being that estates obviuosly are their biggest revenue driver
Jamie Palisades: the other being that their income stream might feel more wobbly due to the voids fiasco
Jamie Palisades: hm and a third
Arria Perreault: we can go for an open sim solution
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Jamie Palisades: they seem to like to :play: with prices suddenly
Jamie Palisades: so
Jamie Palisades: we should, before we go buy sims, have those bigger reserves in our pocket I think
Jamie Palisades is being no fun, but that's his job done
Justice Soothsayer: Jamie, I quite agree, these are all very possible scenarioes for which we should be prepared.
Gwyneth Llewelyn won't make any comments ? really, LL is too unpredictable
Justice Soothsayer: If you and Sudane could get us some specific numbers posted in the next week or so, we could entertain a revised budget at our next meeting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, being a bit more careful in the next 6 months is very wise...
Pip Torok: Jamie, Gwyn, do LL and Estate owners have any concept of a "talking-shop" whwere hot-topics cd be aired to test-out their rection from the "other side"?
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: ((and I'm not fretting because, as of now, we HAVE that kind of money in reserve - it is our expansion plans, not our current burn rate, that would threaten it, most likely))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip, you misunderstand how relationships with LL work...
Moon Adamant: LL listening to customers?!
Justice Soothsayer: I'm quitre worried that things such as Euro value changes v. $L may also have an impact upon us.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly ? like Moon said
Gwyneth Llewelyn: AH, you might be right, Justice ? the Euro keeps dropping
Pip Torok: hmmm .. but dont LL realise where their income-stream comes from???
Jamie Palisades: Justice, let's say, on the budget numbers, yes ... and on whether the estate owners talk shop, yes ... and whether Linden lab listens? no comment at present
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip: no.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They think it sort of "Rubs off" them
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Justice Soothsayer chuckles at Jamie's diplomati reply
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In any case, I, for myself, would certainly advise some caution until summer 2009, a LOT of things are changing at the Lab until then
Pip Torok: (I've worked in a university environment for too long! )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip ? and I've worked with companies too long LL works neither like an university, nore like a company, but like some hormone-driven, autistic teenagers
Jamie Palisades: Next funding round, Gwyn?
Justice Soothsayer: Yes, Pip, the two slowest speeds of change are (1) glacial, and (2) university, not necessarily in that order.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, no, jamie, it's just when the OpenSpace sims price changes will enter in full force, AND we'll have Class 6 servers by then, I'm sure
Pip Torok: LOL !!
Arria Perreault:
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Justice
Arria Perreault: is the abandon of a sim a possible scenario for CDS?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope not!!!!!!!
Jamie Palisades: absoltutely yes, if I may say so, being Bad Cop again
Jamie Palisades: Arria, honestly, it is essentialy to our planning to know that if we WRE to make a bad decision
Jamie Palisades: we could walk away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gosh, that's a Beyond Worse scenario
Justice Soothsayer: I hope not
Jamie Palisades: and "give it back" to LL
Arria Perreault: in this case, what is the plan?
Jamie Palisades: not rally, friends. What if it was just One Park Void Too Many?
Arria Perreault: exchanging of plots?
Jamie Palisades: Sorry, do not understand Arria's last question.
Ranma Tardis: so sorry! it is beyond a "bad" ideal, it would cause legal action to "drop" a sim
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say that a realistic "worse case scenario" for the next 6 months are twofold: a) LL raising the 195 to 295 (very likely) and b) we'll lose a few citizens and ae unable to EXPAND, in spite of our wishes to do so
Arria Perreault: If we have to give back a sim, we cannot abandon the people who have a plot there
Jamie Palisades: There's no law in force for how we would most-fairly depopulate a rented sim - but I have some very strong views on that, if it comes up.
Jamie Palisades: Um fiscal and political urges lead one into PRECISELF opposite directions there
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Justice Soothsayer: We are now getting far beyond the topic of discussion, folks.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True...
Jamie Palisades: No sane custodian of an SL sim would make a promise that they cannot keep -- which includes a promise to perpetually make all sims avaiable no matter what. Sorry
Jamie Palisades: It woud be a tragedy but not an impossibility
Justice Soothsayer: Let's save the nuclear option discussion for another time.
Jamie Palisades: indeed
Arria Perreault: is moving an existing sim and changing its style isalso a scenario for you, Jamie?
Justice Soothsayer: Since we don't have budget numbers to consider today, should we move to yellow for sale map?
Jamie Palisades: (( quick answer to Arria - that requires RA approval , which our laws permit, but woudl create serious other issues, ))
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm ok with that, Justice...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes it would, Jamie, I'd probably do something first before dropping a sim,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: eg. issuing CDS Bonds, like we did in the past
Justice Soothsayer: I'm all for turning off the yellow map (speaking as someone with 1 of 2 plots for sale) but if it is replaced with a better system of marketing.
Jamie Palisades: Here's the link:
Jamie Palisades: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 218#p12416
Jamie Palisades: and the draft says exactty what you just said, Justice.
Arria Perreault: (To Jamie: I think that we should seriously study these scenarii)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The ONLY problem I see with this is something that Ranma made me think. A potential new citizen walks in to the CDS and wants to buy a plot "on impulse". Nothing is shown, and you have to figure out where to ask for information about available plots. I mean, that was the whole point why we moved to "direct sales"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lack of an efficient way for "impulse sales"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, these are "less interesting" citizens,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in the sense that if they don't even bother to read about the CDS; they won't be around for long.
Justice Soothsayer: oooh, Gwyn, don't throw your body on THAT landmine.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe ok, I won't
Justice Soothsayer: Some of our best friends are impulse buyers.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, perhaps I could tackle it from another way Do we have any *statistics* on how many impulse buyers we lost under the "old" system, and how many we got under the current one?
Arria Perreault: I think that we should make more advertising in Internet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, that's the other side of the issue, Arria...
Jamie Palisades:
Arria Perreault: I work on this for the Monastery
Jamie Palisades raises hand but likes the discussion & is happy to wait a bit
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, to be honest, Jamie, I'm really not AGAINST it. The argument of having "too many plots shown for sale during an economic recession" is a pretty strong one.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So anything that 'hides' that is, IMHO, a good idea...
Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes a bit for now
Ranma Tardis: sorry again, the old internet listing were always out of date and updating them takes a lot of time and effort. Also I have been thinking about my return to the CDS for months and acted when a desirable lot was available
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we need an automatic system, like the land barons do with 'bots
Justice Soothsayer: This does relate to the budget discussion; how much would it cost for us to have a more effective land system that markets properties for sale?
Justice Soothsayer: I raise the question, knowing that there's no definitive answer today.
Justice Soothsayer: But feel free to jump in here, Jamie.
Justice Soothsayer: Just one point of order: we also have on our agenda "4. Permit subtenants
5. Amend group citizenship rules" but no specific proposals on the table; since we are nearly out of time I would suggest we save those for next time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: he he
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: well
Jamie Palisades smiles
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds the suggestion
Jamie Palisades: this is great discussin, we are hitting the right points
Pip Torok: agree (I think early next meeting wd be ideal)
Jamie Palisades: so
Jamie Palisades: a few bits & bobs for now
Jamie Palisades: Gwyn - stats on implse? I severely doubt it
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Arria Perreault: agree
Jamie Palisades: but it is my impression and Brian and Roses
Jamie Palisades: that we get 'em and often can;t fulfill 'em
Jamie Palisades: so for NOW, ys, there's an issue, along the lines Ranma said
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Jamie Palisades: also see Symo's forum posting to the same effect a week or two ago
Jamie Palisades: as to Justice's Q
Jamie Palisades: yes - we need a GOOD system
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: as to Arria's
Jamie Palisades: yes - one WITH a web interface
Jamie Palisades: (which you will see is written into the draft)
Jamie Palisades: and ifnally
Jamie Palisades: somethign that I think it important but did not come up
Jamie Palisades: I am concerned about retention
Jamie Palisades: to mention a nice person as one case, and I hope she will not mind
Jamie Palisades: Tessie who bought in AM
Jamie Palisades: and just, well, never got integratedm I think, and wandered off a few months later
Jamie Palisades: what I REALLY want worst of all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* and agrees
Jamie Palisades: is for us to have a quick view into who;s shopping and who bought
Jamie Palisades: SO THAT
Jamie Palisades: we can land on 'em and inculcate a sense of community faster
Jamie Palisades:
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at the choice of words, but totally agrees
Arria Perreault: May I make a remark?
Jamie Palisades: and man, now? all we have ia a 3 year old law that the lame departing seller remains SU that they sold .. and we often don;t find out for weeks
Jamie Palisades: during which they feel neglected. Done, thx
Arria Perreault: I think that we have to think about the way we become citizen
Pip Torok: agree arria
Arria Perreault: now someone buy a plot direct to Rudeen Edo
Arria Perreault: I think that we should know who become citizen
Arria Perreault: maybe in the RA
Arria Perreault: maybe we have to confirm a list
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 'confirm' hmm
Arria Perreault: not to choose people, but by principle, to welcome them
Jamie Palisades: exactly - and the first thing I would like to do once we HAVE that ability is send out a welcome on the group blue notice syetem to each newcomer
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, a welcoming committee!
Arria Perreault: to nominate them
Arria Perreault: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I like that; and we could also have a "Welcome New Citizens!" official monthly party, that would be nice.
Pip Torok: imo that s a prime function of the RA ...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The RA doesn't welcome citizens hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: should we?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or do you mean, oversee that there is a list, Pip?
Pip Torok: of course ... it shows willing!
Arria Perreault: yes, I think we should welcome them and give to them an exemplar of the Constitution
Pip Torok: yes and that its reasonably uptodate
Justice Soothsayer: I recall back in the dark ages when I first bought in NFS that Sudane gave me a welcoming package. Those were the days when one had to buy THRU Sudane.
Arria Perreault: when I have entered the CDS, I was only interested to build a virtual museum
Arria Perreault: I was not aware that it was a virtual democracy at the begining
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I see here three things really... one is getting the list (which, granted, should be generated automatically by software, to make sure it's up-to-date and doesn't take much time); secondly, a way to 'greet' new citizens in a friendly manner, hand out things to them, etc.; and thirdly, defining who is responsible for doing so
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly, Justice ? you probably still have a "signed deed" and all
Pip Torok: excellent summary
Jamie Palisades: What Justice is describing is what I;d like us to get back to - deliberate welcoming and calling attention to the democracy features.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I think we can all safely agree with that
Justice Soothsayer: Guild in 5 mins folks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True.
Justice Soothsayer: so we need to wrap up this discussion, with more conversation over the forums between our meetings.
Pip Torok: on that note i'll quit while i'm still ahead. 'Night all!
Justice Soothsayer: I would intend to have us debate and vote on specific legislation next time.
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Pip and wishes him a good night!
Gwyneth Llewelyn notices that a lot of things are getting tangled together, and like Jamie noticed, we ought to make sure we don't enter a pitfall where we have a HUGE set of laws to approve together or none at all
Justice Soothsayer: Does anyone have anything under "Open Discussion"? Announcements?
Arria Perreault: no
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Owls!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Jamie Palisades: I agree with Gwyn - why I am trying to keep it in pieces for "bitesize" work
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Jamie and thanks him for that
Jamie Palisades: and thank you again to everyone for your patience
Arria Perreault: thank you
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, a "welcome new citizens" party should be easy to organise ? even if we don't get an updated list every month
Jamie Palisades: I will save comment on that for after mtg
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol ok ok ok
Ranma Tardis: maybe we should just have more parties
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ranma: we have plenty!
Justice Soothsayer: WE need a Welcome Back Ranma party!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
Arria Perreault: yes
Ranma Tardis: smiles
Jamie Palisades: ahem - oh and - rememebr - decorated owl deadline is tonight SLT
Rubaiyat Shatner:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, yes...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Arria Perreault: and come to my house the 21th december at 2PM to Fiesta latina
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: We're especially pleased to have Ranma back with us
Justice Soothsayer: OK, with that note on owls, we are out of time, so let's adjourn.
Ranma Tardis: I put out Umi Chan the tofu eating tarn *grins*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: all righty
The meeting closed at 11:0 Linden time.