SPC Meeting Transcript - Sunday 30th July

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Moon Adamant
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SPC Meeting Transcript - Sunday 30th July

Post by Moon Adamant »

Hello all :)

Blow is the transcript of the SPC Meeting that was held Sunday, the 30th July,at the Rathaus.

Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1 Sudane's
Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)
Local-Position: (197, 184, 178)

Meeting on 2006-07-30
Those present:
Moon Adamant is in the chair.
Sudane Erato has indicated consent to be recorded.
Pelanor Eldrich: Ok, we need a Sim. Meeting over. LOL.
Jon Seattle: A few more steps..
Pelanor Eldrich: Just kidding.
Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: lol Pelanor
Jon Seattle laughs
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: ok...
Moon Adamant: welocme all first of all and thanks for showing up
Sudane Erato: :)
Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: i must apologize that i have been a bit away since last, specially to building

workgroup members
Moon Adamant: and i won't do it again :D
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: perhaps! :))
Moon Adamant: laughs
Moon Adamant: anyway, today we have only two points, those being 1. Reports and 2. CN Site Editor

(from last meeting)
Sudane Erato: ok
Moon Adamant: does anyone has more points to add?
Moon Adamant: have*
Sudane Erato: ahh... depends on which issues are still in committee
Sudane Erato: and which are here
Sudane Erato: like...
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: the archeological dig
Moon Adamant: i see financial wg and building wg as for now
Sudane Erato: ok
Moon Adamant: since building wg didn't meet (apologies again!)
Moon Adamant: maybe the financial coudl report?
Sudane Erato: sure...
Moon Adamant: meanwhile other groups may appear
Sudane Erato: we have several reports
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: Pat will do most of them...
Moon Adamant: listens
Sudane Erato: he's given you that card
Moon Adamant: he has dropped me one already
Moon Adamant: yes, he has
Sudane Erato: but... the startup budget
Sudane Erato: was my responsibility
Jon Seattle: Pat will be here later..
Sudane Erato: that should be in the box
Sudane Erato: yes..
Sudane Erato: he will be
Sudane Erato: but its not
Sudane Erato: its quite simple really
Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.
Sudane Erato: there is the cost of the sim
Sudane Erato: plus
Sudane Erato: 3 mon's partial tier as the sim sells up
Moon Adamant is reading along
Sudane Erato: to make up the shortfall in income compared to the tier payment
Sudane Erato: and then there is a infrastructure budget..
Sudane Erato: which I have noo idea how to budget
Sudane Erato: perhaps we can discuss that..
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: anyway
Sudane Erato: about US$2000
Sudane Erato: total cost
Moon Adamant: by infrastructure you mean building and terraforming?
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: kk, we'll discuss it next
Sudane Erato: whatever we must do to prepare the sim for sale
Sudane Erato: I have estimated we have about $500 existing cash we can use for this
Sudane Erato: leaving $1500 to be raised
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: I have suggested simple loans
Sudane Erato: paying 6% interest
Sudane Erato: which is very low by SL standards
Sudane Erato: but not by RL
Moon Adamant: yes
Sudane Erato: if we do that... the total cost of borrowing can not exceed $90/year

Pelanor Eldrich: I think that's a good idea. A couple of quick words though.
Sudane Erato: ok
Moon Adamant: ok Pelanor
Jon Seattle listens
Pelanor Eldrich: Loans can be tough sells to lenders in SL because they essentially have no

recourse in event of default. It's all about trusting the sim owner/community.
Sudane Erato: yes
Pelanor Eldrich: The second point is that you also have to make them attractive in an environment

where Ginko pays 40-60% per year.
Sudane Erato: i suspect that the loans will be from "insiders"
Jon Seattle: Pel, I wonder how much the loans will be given by citizens who will trust us.
Pelanor Eldrich: Right, so if you can crack those 2 nuts, you're fine.
Salzie Sachertorte: Hi, srorry I'm late
Sudane Erato: people with an existing interest in NStadt
Sudane Erato: hi!
Moon Adamant: well, pelanor, do you know Shaun Altman's system?
Jon Seattle: Hi Salzie!
Moon Adamant: and hi Salzie!
Pelanor Eldrich: I know a bit about his exchange, yes. BTW I'm in favor of loans, and in fact bonds

don't yet exist, so it's our only vehicle.
Sudane Erato: yes... and they're simple
Pelanor Eldrich: Right.
Moon Adamant: oh, i mean that his exchange is tied down to land, which is also our case
Moon Adamant: and not Ginko's
Pelanor Eldrich: ah, I didn't know that. Interesting.
Moon Adamant: so it's less profitbale . but less risk
Moon Adamant: gwyn knows shaun's system, she can explain it beter when she gets here
Pelanor Eldrich: Are we using Cyberland in this fund raising somehow?
Sudane Erato: is it something we should consider for this transaction?
Jon Seattle: In any case I doubt it will be hard to raise the money from insiders. It is just not

that much.
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: i am not sure if we could, to either
Sudane Erato: i agree
Moon Adamant: but we can replicate it, even
Pelanor Eldrich: Right, insiders. Outside you have the "trust me" problem, which plagues SL, where

the money I speculatively afford to burn is about $L500 for most.
Moon Adamant: listens to Pelanor
Pelanor Eldrich: So each insider ponies up whatever USD they're willing to loan to CDS then, right?
Pelanor Eldrich: ..or$L....
Ranma Tardis: has the income from the sale of land been taken into account?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi!
Pelanor Eldrich: hi
Sudane Erato: the income pays back the principal of the loan
Gwyneth Llewelyn: apologies for being late :-P
Jon Seattle: Hi Gwyn
Salzie Sachertorte: Hi
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jon Seattle smiles at Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn touches all available grey boxes, lol
Moon Adamant: hello Gwyneth :)
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: hehe... hi Gwyn :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-D
Pelanor Eldrich: Hi Gwyn!
Gwyneth Llewelyn <--- reading notecards now
Moon Adamant: Gwyn, we are just listening to the finacial group report and discussing the Start up

Moon Adamant: just now*
Sudane Erato: should I recap?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah thanks, Moon!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: no no, that's ok.
Sudane Erato: its on a card

Moon Adamant: specifically, we are discussing loans to complete the investment
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I like these options!
Sudane Erato: :)
Moon Adamant: anyway, this loan system has been used before
Sudane Erato: yes... for the first sim
Moon Adamant: for this very sim
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: and it worked
Moon Adamant: and worked well
Pelanor Eldrich: ah, ok, good. So you have experience, that's a plus.
Sudane Erato: we had an exceptionally fast payback
Moon Adamant: one question:
Moon Adamant: was that payback done by hmmm\
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: well, statdt existed already in teh anzere sim, and it had a community there
Moon Adamant: so m question is
Sudane Erato: that actually brings up an issue
Moon Adamant: was that payback done by the community moving to this sim, mainly - or by new people

Sudane Erato: the funds were loaned by only 3 of us...
Pelanor Eldrich: Is lending and repayment by USD or $L?
Sudane Erato: who moved from Anzere
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: and it brings up an iossue
Moon Adamant: listens to Suane
Moon Adamant: Sudane*
Sudane Erato: those loans were used to pay monthly fee
Sudane Erato: but... that was very complex... for me at least
Sudane Erato: I propose that this time
Sudane Erato: lenders continue to pay their monthly fee as normal
Sudane Erato: and the loan payback be separate
Moon Adamant: ah, i think that there can be no objection to that
Moon Adamant: i do understand what you mean
Sudane Erato: it was a simple concept... too simple
Moon Adamant has to do bookeeping iRL too *sighs*
Sudane Erato: but it made my bookeeping much more difficult
Sudane Erato: so... thats why I suggest
Salzie Sachertorte: It makes it more transparentas well, in the financial statements
Sudane Erato: yes,, thats true
Moon Adamant: indeed Salzie
Sudane Erato: now Pat has suggested that he bring up a bill to tha RA
Sudane Erato: authorizing this loan
Sudane Erato: so... thats the next step
Moon Adamant: ok
Jon Seattle: brb much water is falling, need to close windows
Pelanor Eldrich: ok
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: rain in SL!!
Salzie Sachertorte: Haha - that storm went through here an hour ago
Sudane Erato: Lee!
Sudane Erato: hello!
Moon Adamant: hello Lee :)
Salzie Sachertorte: Hi Lee
Lee Dimsum: Hello everyone
Pelanor Eldrich: So citizens lend $L to the treasury, then expansion takes place and 6% is due to

lenders 1 year afterwards (can be repaid sooner). Is that it?
Jon Seattle smles and nods at Salzie
Sudane Erato: yes... emphasize "can be paid back sooner"
Moon Adamant: Lee, we are listening to the financial wg report and loking at the initial budget,

which you can retrieve from that cube on teh table
Pelanor Eldrich: Everyone likes "paid back sooner".
Sudane Erato: yes... and we LIKE to pay back sooner
Moon Adamant: ok
Jon Seattle: Hi Lee
Pelanor Eldrich: Can anyone lend, or only citizens?

Moon Adamant: so the payback tax is fixed, regardless of time, up untill 1 year
Sudane Erato: the tax?
Sudane Erato: the interest rate?
Pelanor Eldrich: I think that's what he means.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think Moon means "interest".
Sudane Erato: yes
Pelanor Eldrich: er she
Moon Adamant: oops, yes, sudden relapse into portuguese, sorry :)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: i meant interest rate
Sudane Erato: fixed to one year... ok
Sudane Erato: and after that... it might be recalced
Sudane Erato: if there is still $$ out
Moon Adamant: ok
Lee Dimsum: what is the yearly interest rate? is the bond issued in L$ or in USD?
Sudane Erato: 6%
Pelanor Eldrich: Straight loan.
Sudane Erato: and they are loans
Gwyneth Llewelyn: In USD, right?
Pelanor Eldrich: So Sudane, you're saying that if principal isn't repaid after 1 year it's

recalced. The lender will want at least the 6% interest at that point though.
Sudane Erato: hmm... yes... I guess thats right
Sudane Erato: oh!
Sudane Erato: I have in the passt paid the 6% monthly
Sudane Erato: I forgot that
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: it seems better
Moon Adamant: do you advise that ?
Lee Dimsum: monthly makes the investment more lucrative
Sudane Erato: I like "expenses" to be monthly
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes, monthly payments.
Sudane Erato: it makes management much more clear
Pelanor Eldrich: The longest investment I've ever sold is 90 days. Everyone wants 30.
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: well, this will need longer
Sudane Erato: but I cannot imagine needing even a year
Pelanor Eldrich: Yes, of course, but monthly payments is good.
Sudane Erato: yes..
Sudane Erato: monthly interest...
Sudane Erato: principal to be discussed... based on sales
Sudane Erato: principal payback, i mean
Lee Dimsum: 6% seems to be very low compared to the actual USD libor of almost 5%
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
Sudane Erato: yes... it is low
Sudane Erato: but reasonable in a RL context
Sudane Erato: this is not intended as a money-making opportunity
Pelanor Eldrich: Is USD a barrier to European/Asian lenders? Can they all use paypal?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: also, we're risk-less,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: compared to Ginko at least ;)
Sudane Erato: well, we have 2 sims of equity
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Except for the Russian/Ukranian... :)
Moon Adamant: yes Gwyn
Pelanor Eldrich: Gywn, with all due respect, that all depends on who you talk to. Both investments

are reputation backed only.
Moon Adamant: and Pelanor, we can have pay pal too
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, actually, Pelanor, you're right, PayPal is not offered in ALL countries,

just some 70 or so.
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: we=europeans
Pelanor Eldrich: kk
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pel ? yes hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye on the reputation bit,
Sudane Erato: yes... it does depend on who you talk to :)
Sudane Erato: thus... this is primatily an insider arrangement
Ranma Tardis: this loan is for the benifit of the community and not making a profit, 6% is correct

Sudane Erato: well, the lenders make a 6% profit
Sudane Erato: but i feel you are right
Moon Adamant: i agree with you both
Sudane Erato: they would do it for the benefit of the community
Sudane Erato: because they share our long term vision
Jon Seattle agrees with Sudane
Sudane Erato: hehe... which we are maybe not so clear about! :)
Moon Adamant: laughs
Moon Adamant: ok
Pelanor Eldrich: works for me.
Moon Adamant: so we agre that the loan ystem to be used again, with the changes Sudane has

suggested as regard making bookeeping easy?
Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees.
Sudane Erato: good
Salzie Sachertorte: yes
Jon Seattle: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Everything that helps out bookkeeping must be good ;)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: ty :)
Ranma Tardis: my only question is why Lindens? It would be very easy for me to loan in USD
Moon Adamant: ok, we will make a reccomendation to RA on that sense
Pelanor Eldrich: right. So It's 6% annually, interest paid monthly, principal paid back according

what's possible according to Sudane. Loan extended if principal not paid back after 1 year.
Salzie Sachertorte: oh dear - brb
Moon Adamant: yes, this has been asked several times
Sudane Erato: no... not necessarily Lindens
Moon Adamant: USD, LIndens, both?
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I remember correctly, we did it in USD the last time...
Sudane Erato: the only real issue is which value is locked
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
Sudane Erato: and so far...
Sudane Erato: because of LL, we have locked the USD
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I would trust more on the USD, if you all don't mind ;)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: laughs
Sudane Erato: its all relative Gwyn :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, Sudane :)
Sudane Erato: :))
Moon Adamant: ok
Moon Adamant: back to the infrastructure point on this document
Ranma Tardis: USD is better since the expenses are paid in thus
Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Ranma. Indeed.
Moon Adamant: yes, you're right Ranma, no money lost in conversion fees
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might get accused of defending the L$ years ago, lol, but the market didn't

fluctuate as much...
Pelanor Eldrich: If you loan CDS $USD, you get interest /principal payments in $USD likeways for

$L. No exchange rate to worry worry about.
Sudane Erato: there is always $$ lost
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, PayPal also charges a fee...
Pelanor Eldrich: Or just pick one.
Sudane Erato: if you loan in $L... we will fix the value in US$ at the moment of the loan
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, of course, Sudane.
Pelanor Eldrich: Ah, ok, that's works too.
Moon Adamant: ok Sudane agreed
Pelanor Eldrich: Less risk to the loaner.
Pelanor Eldrich: *lender
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: hopefully
Pelanor Eldrich: The $L could be the new Euro or the new Rouble in 1 year. Who knows/
Pelanor Eldrich: ?
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn hoards L$ for that :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, can we go ahead?
Ranma Tardis: I always seem to lose money in converting either dollars/lindens or dollars/yen

Moon Adamant: yes
Jon Seattle laughs
Moon Adamant: ok
Moon Adamant: infrastructure costs
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: i just learned (after asking for two years) the actual prime building fee
Moon Adamant: i just wanted to tell you that this value is low
Sudane Erato: oh!
Moon Adamant: though
Moon Adamant: as the building will be made for insiders, it will be acceptable , i think
Moon Adamant: by insiders*
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: what is it?
Moon Adamant: the fee?
Sudane Erato: yes... I guess... the rate?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: People are now charging US$35-50/hour for quality buildings with detailed

Gwyneth Llewelyn: *textures
Moon Adamant: you don't want to know really lol
Sudane Erato: that's low??!
Moon Adamant: we are talking prime building
Pelanor Eldrich: Wow, I need to learn to build. I usually make 30cents/hr on a good day.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that Moon meant that our estimates are low, lol
Sudane Erato: hehe... that's us!
Sudane Erato: ahh... i see!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not that the fees are low!
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: i see
Sudane Erato: hehe...
Moon Adamant: Pelanor, you tell me...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They're "almost" up to US standards for 3D design using other modelling apps.

Gwyneth Llewelyn: the idea is if we're going to outsource it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we have to be careful :)
Sudane Erato: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is a good lobby of the Content Barons around, to make sure the fees do not

get "undercut".
Moon Adamant: my issue here only is that care will be needed for contracts
Sudane Erato: there is a lobby!!
Sudane Erato: ??
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure there is :D
Sudane Erato: omg!
Moon Adamant hides away from teh Evil Content Barons
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Remember, there are already 5 or 6 RL companies working for RL customers who pay

those fees....
Sudane Erato: and do they slit your tires if you undercut??
Gwyneth Llewelyn: They do, hopefully only the virtual tires :D
Moon Adamant: they send unpleasant IMs :P
Moon Adamant: laughs
Sudane Erato: god
Moon Adamant: just kidding
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: and of course, you get a horse head in your bed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, and write posts on Second Citizen and SL Universe ;)
Sudane Erato: not too funny
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Moon!
Sudane Erato: :)
Ranma Tardis: AR them moon and back it up with legal action if required
Pelanor Eldrich: Do we have to oursource? We don't have Roman quality builders in town?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The bloody communists at Neufreistadt are undercutting rates AGAIN", that sort

of stuff.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We do, Pelanor.
Sudane Erato: haha
Moon Adamant: my opinion is that we have Pelanor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the budget should be kept secret if it's way below market rates.
Sudane Erato: hehe
Ranma Tardis: ingore them
Moon Adamant: exactly
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: it worked with UZ

Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Ranma. You see, you can't be offering good financial products (ie. solid

loans based on reputation) on one hand, and undercutting the free market at the same time ;)
Moon Adamant: Sudane?
Pelanor Eldrich: I think we can do it with local talent and use a builder contract overseen by

general contractor GM. There was a excellent builder boilerplate in the forums and I'm sure Diderot

scribe can write it all up.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Pel.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also think that's possible, yes.
Moon Adamant: exactly Pel
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And try to do it all in-house anyway.
Ranma Tardis: the free market means free market the right to market your products at a price of

your chosing
Sudane Erato: thats right
Moon Adamant: i brought this point only to point out that if any thought of outsourcing, you must

have a hmmm special figure in the budget for that
Ranma Tardis: outsourcing can be a problem, I have know of others that have had problems with their

content providers
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ranma, I know :)
Moon Adamant: so i do reccomend the insider work here as well
Pelanor Eldrich: So then the contract is kept by Sudane, who subcontracts the work to her citizen

employees/guild members, compensation is kept confidential. Everyone is happy, the content barons

don't get wind, and we avoid the compensation beefs of UZ's .
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that does really sound like a plan, Pelanor!
Moon Adamant: indeed pelanor!
Sudane Erato: the only hitch is if we have enough internal resources to do this...
Ranma Tardis: bravo
Sudane Erato: how many builders... and how much time....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The sooner we start, the sooner it's finished ;)
Sudane Erato: *sigh*
Sudane Erato: I was hoping to avoid building :))
Pelanor Eldrich: So the big contract can be public, for transparency's sake, but without the public

subcontracts, outsiders don't really know who much they're being undercut by. *evil grin*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you don't "avoid" it, Sudane!
Moon Adamant: lol Pelanor
Sudane Erato: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pelanor, that's the spirit ;)
Sudane Erato: hehe.... yes
Moon Adamant: and i was counting with your excelelnt building, Sudane :)
Sudane Erato: ty, all :)
Moon Adamant: shoot the Evil Content Barons!
Sudane Erato: I'd love to :)
Sudane Erato: yes!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Pelanor Eldrich: In that scenario, Sudane is a foreman, GC and not actually doing the work unless

she wants to.
Moon Adamant: lol, ok
Sudane Erato: (expletive deleted)!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok ok.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Moon Adamant: any more from financial?
Sudane Erato: well, there only a few of us...
Sudane Erato: altho...
Sudane Erato: I have met a few aspiring builders outside NStadt
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes?
Sudane Erato: and one in particular
Moon Adamant: listens
Sudane Erato: is doing beautiful Roman Baths
Moon Adamant: oh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh Really!!?
Sudane Erato: altho... she's not yet willing to consider working for others :)

Moon Adamant: get him/her
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: emphasis on "yet" :))
Moon Adamant: what about hmmm
Moon Adamant: partial payment in form of periods of free rental?
Moon Adamant: for these new builders?
Sudane Erato: sure... but we must be carefiul
Moon Adamant: i know from my newbies that they all aspire to have a shop
Sudane Erato: that we don't undercut our revenue base
Moon Adamant: sure
Moon Adamant: but keep only, say, 2 or 3 commercial spaces for that
Pelanor Eldrich: It's funny that Content Barons call us communists when we're undercutting their

union rates. We're capitalist Taiwan kicking their asses. You can quote me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a possibility, Moon, but you're thinking about newbies that will take *any*

job ;)
Moon Adamant: since you aren't going to have hordes of new builders anyway
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay Pelanor ? I will remember that one :))
Moon Adamant: LOL pel
Sudane Erato: hehe
Ranma Tardis: some of the "barons" take money for building and then sell what they were paid for to

build. we have to be very careful
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was also thinking about "exclusive content".
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thus the fees.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: If the content is NOT exclusive,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. the builders can resell it,
Moon Adamant: yes, tehse are fees for exclusive content
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they can afford to charge much less, of course.
Ranma Tardis: they do it because they can
Pelanor Eldrich: To Content Barons: "Cry me a protectionist river!"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Pel :D
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pel, I'm glad we're giving you lots of cool ideas to post on the forums :)
Moon Adamant: ok
Pelanor Eldrich: thx. brb
Moon Adamant: we can also make hmmm
Moon Adamant: contests for building, that way we can pick the best
Sudane Erato: lucky if we should be able to pick the best...
Sudane Erato: with so few inside builders
Sudane Erato: we are all great!! :)
Moon Adamant: well, the best applying lol
Moon Adamant: oh, i meant for outsiders, Sudane
Jon Seattle: Would it make sense to train inside builders as well?
Sudane Erato: ahhh
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh "train"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
Sudane Erato: Jon, that would be great!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Will we have time for that? ;)
Sudane Erato: tho, in my experience... it is mostly self-taught
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
Sudane Erato: I have "taught" several people...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You either have the talent, or you don't ;)
Moon Adamant: oh, there are tricks of teh trade
Moon Adamant: you can teach
Sudane Erato: which means... shoowing a few ideas
Jon Seattle: Perhaps we could have a collection of needed objects, allow people to try to build

those, and then have more expert people crieque their work?
Moon Adamant: though everyone must find their own language, agreed
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: and also,,, SO much of building is photoshop work
Moon Adamant: that is a good idea Jon
Moon Adamant: yes Sudane!

Jon Seattle just bought a real photoshop licience
Ranma Tardis: building is a certain way of thinking and problem solving, this is what can be taught

to new builders
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: i'm a cheapie PSP user :))
Jon Seattle: Ah, I use a mac
Moon Adamant: GIMP has lovely filters
Sudane Erato: hi Claude!
Claude Desmoulins: Hi.
Moon Adamant: hello Claude .)
Jon Seattle: Hi Claude
Claude Desmoulins: I'll be in and out again.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Claude, hi!
Sudane Erato: welcome in :)
Ranma Tardis: Hi Claude :)
Sudane Erato: hi Pat! :)
Patroklus Murakami: hi all, sorry i'm late
Jon Seattle: Hi Pat! :)
Ranma Tardis: Hi Pat :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Pat :) :)
Moon Adamant: hi there Pat!
Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.
Moon Adamant: we were discussing the initial budget with a few wanderings, lol
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: yes...
Patroklus Murakami: kk, np i'll catch up
Moon Adamant: ok, what elese from finantial group?
Moon Adamant: else*
Sudane Erato: thats Pat's area
Patroklus Murakami: eek, on the spot already :)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: good timing! :)
Moon Adamant: listens to Pat
Patroklus Murakami: have u al had a chance to read the notecared or the forum post?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops.
Sudane Erato: :)
Moon Adamant: hmmm
Ranma Tardis: yes
Jon Seattle: Yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn has been away from email, IMs, forums today.
Claude Desmoulins: No and no :)
Moon Adamant: let me feed the box with it, oops
Patroklus Murakami: there's one in the notecard giver gwyn
Sudane Erato: Gwyn!... not allowable! :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn *covers her eyes*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in shame
Sudane Erato: :)
Patroklus Murakami: basically we can't proceed exactley as we planned
Moon Adamant: ok
Moon Adamant: listens attentively
Patroklus Murakami: we can't put a non-contiguous sim one step removed from the current postion of

Patroklus Murakami: bute we do have other options
Patroklus Murakami: initial thoughts of mine are on the card :)
Patroklus Murakami waits for everone to read the card!
Ashcroft Burnham: ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which card would that be? :(
Claude Desmoulins: Wait.
Patroklus Murakami: Costing options
Sudane Erato: yes
Claude Desmoulins: The move of NFS into the non protected area is free ,it says
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Sorry! I thought that was *Sudane's* card :-P
Gwyneth Llewelyn is having another blonde moment
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, I have read that thoroughly, Pat :)
Sudane Erato: no, my card doesn't seem to have made it
Moon Adamant: laughs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unfairness!
Patroklus Murakami: is it claude? sorry, i didnt catch that. free to move now? or free to move in

march 07?
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn brings out the Justice scales.
Sudane Erato: haha
Sudane Erato: anyway
Sudane Erato: there is an option 5
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, yes, I've read that
Claude Desmoulins: free to move now.
Sudane Erato: which Pat and I discussed

Gwyneth Llewelyn: And what would option 5 be?
Claude Desmoulins: What's option 5?
Moon Adamant: listens to Sudane
Sudane Erato: I feel we should buy sims now without regard to location
Sudane Erato: whereever LL gives them to us
Sudane Erato: when we have 4 or 5
Sudane Erato: we put in place a master plan
Moon Adamant: ah, we'd merge them then
Sudane Erato: and move ALL of them
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: yes
Sudane Erato: we pay NO reservation fees
Sudane Erato: only the one time moving fees
Moon Adamant: but terrain must be planned now, and main roads
Sudane Erato: they are not cheap
Moon Adamant: that is a good idea
Sudane Erato: well... with void sims...
Patroklus Murakami: sudane makes a good point
Sudane Erato: that is not so important
Sudane Erato: but yes...
Moon Adamant: ok
Sudane Erato: we can plan roads now
Ranma Tardis: that adds up to $750 American and does not make a sense of community
Sudane Erato: and merge the plans when they met
Patroklus Murakami: the main considerations isthe balance between the cost of moving at $150 per

Moon Adamant: so you would suggest that those 5 normal sims be moved and added then to 4 voids
Sudane Erato: yes... approx that
Patroklus Murakami: and the cost of reserving spaces on the map $10 per month per sim (but with the

potential to get much higher)
Moon Adamant: ah Pat
Sudane Erato: when you try to plan too far aahead too rpecisely...
Sudane Erato: it becomes a bad idea
Moon Adamant: the trouble there is: 10 dollars/m for how long?
Patroklus Murakami: $150 is a one off cost that we can budget for, the reservation costs are more

'flexible' :)
Sudane Erato: exactly
Sudane Erato: and... how many sime do we reserve?
Moon Adamant: yes, that too
Sudane Erato: and how many simes do we reserve?
Patroklus Murakami: exactly, i reckon u need at least six to reserve a a 15 sim 3X5 block, and even

that;s not guarnatneed
Sudane Erato: so, $60/month
Moon Adamant: though it is true that as we get more sims, we'll also be ble to expand quicker,

since Stadt is profitable
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: ok
Patroklus Murakami: so the best move might be to buy CN in the 'free' unreserved space and then

move NFS later
Sudane Erato: yes
Sudane Erato: thats what I'd suggest
Moon Adamant: ok
Moon Adamant: it sounds good to me
Jon Seattle: makes sense
Patroklus Murakami: do we need to decide this now? it is complicated so maybe some time for

thinking thru all the options is needed?
Sudane Erato: i agree Pat
Patroklus Murakami: i've only come across this today!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, when I read the 4 options, I thought we would go with the first, since CN

will be non-contiguous anyway...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sooooo unless someone suddenly found a gold mine under N'stadt and we're all

filthy rich,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd go for that plan.
Patroklus Murakami: i think we should definitely keep CN non-contiguous, the more i htink aboout

the void sims the more i like them :)

Moon Adamant: i agree with pat that we should cnsider this carefully
Sudane Erato: the problem with Option 1
Sudane Erato: is that it incurs the expense of moving NStadt now
Sudane Erato: and I don't see the point
Claude Desmoulins: What expense?
Ranma Tardis: this worries me with CN having a different "theme" it would be so easy for a spilt to

Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why should we have the two sims "near" to each other, Sudane? :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean *now*
Claude Desmoulins: Unril March 07 moves out of the protected zone are free?
Sudane Erato: exactly... why should we?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since they will not be contiguous, they can be anywhere in the world...
Sudane Erato: except for Ranma;s point
Moon Adamant is wondering about 14th march 2007
Patroklus Murakami: claude's point is highly relevat
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes. That is true, but...
Sudane Erato: and that would require actual contiguity (??)
Claude Desmoulins: I worry with Ranma about the sense of cohesion being lost with non

Moon Adamant: well, there are issues with contiguity as regards topography and clouds
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I always thought they *would* be contiguous, but since the building

committee recommended otherwise...
Pelanor Eldrich: wonders if by the time 5 sims rolls around we might be hosting them open source at

home or via ISP
Patroklus Murakami: we can move nfs when cn is ready to come online for free. that guarantees the

space between, if nothing else. my option 1 is $150 less expensive n reality
Jon Seattle: wb Salzie!
Ranma Tardis: LL can change their policy and I am worried that the sims will not have enough in

commom with each other to maintain a community
Moon Adamant: the building wg hasn't yet made a reccomendation :)
Moon Adamant: and wb Salzie
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah Pelanor, that will take some time, and remember: it will NEVER be free, just

Salzie Sachertorte: Sorry, baby is sick and I crashed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah. No recommendation yet?
Pelanor Eldrich: Ah, the fear of sucession. Yes, it's an issue.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Salzie :)
Patroklus Murakami: ranma, that problem exists *however* we expand. the problem of secession will

be there unless we think of a way to deter it
Moon Adamant: no gwyneth
Pelanor Eldrich: Civil war backed by Caledon...just kidding.
Ranma Tardis: having seperate sims that require a TP to access each other only makes it easier to

Moon Adamant: the BW is still studying the issue... no recmmendation yet, perhaps next week we'll

have one
Patroklus Murakami: well, ranma i would prefer for teh two sims to be contiguous from teh get go

but there are really good practical reasons for not going in that direction
Moon Adamant: though it is true that it is leaning strongly to non-contiguity
Patroklus Murakami: i think the building group and the last spc laid out the arguments pretty

Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm.
Moon Adamant: yes lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn senses a dilemma here.

Pelanor Eldrich: I think Ranma has a point, whatever form of metagov't we decide on (Republic or

Federation) there should be a strong deterrent against secession. No one wants to see a Port

Neualtenburg type split again unless absolutely necessary.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
Moon Adamant: that is why i say we're leaning strongly towards it
Pelanor Eldrich: Having said that, the UDHR allows secession.
Moon Adamant: but we do need to make a formal report about it, and propose a sketch of a plan
Moon Adamant: please
Patroklus Murakami: i think that's a constitutional issue not a building/logistical issue
Moon Adamant: exactly
Jon Seattle: yes
Moon Adamant: can we move back to point?
Ranma Tardis: well the question needs to be answered before planning can take place or we will have

a repeat of history in less than a years time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What question? Contiguous or non-contiguous?
Patroklus Murakami: but the only way secession can take place now is for someone to delete thier

build and go
Patroklus Murakami: that's not that much of a worry
Patroklus Murakami: the reall secessionary threat
Patroklus Murakami: is that we could buy CN with CDS casth
Patroklus Murakami: *cash
Patroklus Murakami: and then they declare UDI
Patroklus Murakami: that's what we need to guard against
Moon Adamant: please everyone
Ranma Tardis: there is the question of our future form of goverment and who will be the holder of

both sims
Salzie Sachertorte: UDI?
Sudane Erato: UDI ?
Patroklus Murakami: UDI=unilateral declaration of independeance
Pelanor Eldrich: right
Sudane Erato: :)
Sudane Erato: oh!
Patroklus Murakami: sorry moon, am in being badly behaved? back to teh point :)
Patroklus Murakami: *I
Moon Adamant: lol
Moon Adamant: we have other groups to listen to still
Moon Adamant: so let's try and move on
Sudane Erato: yes!
Patroklus Murakami: yes. mes apologies :)
Moon Adamant: the financial wg then suggests these options plus 5
Moon Adamant: reccommending 5?
Moon Adamant: or 5 and 1?
Pelanor Eldrich: We can hash out metagov't in some other forum. Obviously you can't UDI without the

backing of the sim owner, end of story.
Salzie Sachertorte: well its good to get problems on the table do they can be discussed elsewwhere
Patroklus Murakami: finacnial wg has not considered any of these, u heard it first here
Claude Desmoulins: So if the same av owns allsims no secessionb
Jon Seattle: I think the succession issue might be discussed elsewhere..
Patroklus Murakami: not necess claude, and the same av owns all sim involves other risks - i'll

post some thought on this on teh forum
Moon Adamant: indeed
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: please?
Patroklus Murakami: but we don't need to decide this issue right now, do we? so let's move on
Moon Adamant: ok
Moon Adamant: anything more from financial wg?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry, I was pushing the SL client to the utmost limits :)
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: hehe...
Jon Seattle laughs and smiles
Moon Adamant: wb Gwyn :)

Gwyneth Llewelyn: Never a good thing to doo in Neulagstadt.
Moon Adamant: LOL
Patroklus Murakami: lol
Salzie Sachertorte: *grin*
Moon Adamant: ok...
Moon Adamant: bureau wg and promotion wg?
Salzie Sachertorte: we should gather all our "nicknames" on the website
Gwyneth Llewelyn considers suggesting that name for the next sim ;)
Moon Adamant: who first?
Salzie Sachertorte: let me as the baby is sleeping
Moon Adamant: sure Salzie
Moon Adamant: please do
Salzie Sachertorte: Well, marketing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Promotion first, since the bureaucrats have not met, to the best of my knowledge

Moon Adamant: (btw Salzie, sorry... haven't yet sent you the survey)
Salzie Sachertorte: to sedge from finance, we have come up with the idea of using incentives to

help with sales to outsiders
Salzie Sachertorte: a referral from a citizens that results in a sale would pay the citizsen some

Salzie Sachertorte: the financial folks can determeint the amount of $L
Sudane Erato: :))
Salzie Sachertorte: So, comments on that idea?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh that's a GOOD one!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Splitting the initial fee? ;)
Moon Adamant: that sounds good indeed Salzie
Moon Adamant: lol
Patroklus Murakami: it favours ppl who have friends, and i have none. so i hate it :)
Salzie Sachertorte: incentivize a sales force into action
Sudane Erato: again... carefully so as not to cut into the revenue base
Salzie Sachertorte: haha - mke some friends Pat
Moon Adamant: lol
Patroklus Murakami: no, it's a good idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hehe Pat :)
Sudane Erato: in this case... meaning paying back the loan principal
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Sudane, of course.
Salzie Sachertorte: well, you could build the incentive into the sales prices
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The incentive should be big enough to be worthwhile, but not too big
Sudane Erato: true
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and yes, Salzie.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And to be paid, for instance, only after that person has been around for 3

Gwyneth Llewelyn: to prevent people to come in just to get the L$ and never pay the 2nd month.
Salzie Sachertorte: That works
Sudane Erato: well, that may not be needed
Sudane Erato: an important fact should be noted
Sudane Erato: most of NStadts profitability
Salzie Sachertorte: it woudl help to fill the sim, and get our peole talking about it - word of

mouth advertising
Sudane Erato: comes from the resale of abandoned land
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes. That's true :D
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
Sudane Erato: so, we have no reason to discourage adandonment
Patroklus Murakami: right, didn't know that
Salzie Sachertorte: All right
Moon Adamant: ok, i see
Sudane Erato: if they sell, on the other hand
Salzie Sachertorte: I have been working on a marketing/business plan, but itisn't ready yet
Sudane Erato: the City gets no explicit benefit..
Sudane Erato: except the continuance of monthly fee
Salzie Sachertorte: I thought there was a transfer tax?
Moon Adamant: ok, Salzie
Sudane Erato: yes, there is... but I haven't exercized it

Salzie Sachertorte: ah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: You're too nice!
Sudane Erato: we will when the new mechanical system is developed
Salzie Sachertorte: Do many sell to others?
Sudane Erato: no!...
Moon Adamant: ok Sudane
Sudane Erato: very few
Sudane Erato: maybe... 4 in all
Salzie Sachertorte: Um, I had an idea for the upcoming ball..
Claude Desmoulins: Who wants to bother being their own realtor?
Ranma Tardis: we lose the resident and the benifit of a replacement resident, doing the right thing

is not always what brings in the most amount of income
Sudane Erato: yes
Salzie Sachertorte: But it might be too hokey?
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: what is teh ide, Salzie? :)
Moon Adamant: idea*
Ranma Tardis: before long we start to look at just making income no matter what
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe well,
Salzie Sachertorte: Well, one idea was to have an Indian Jones type character burst in towards the

end, and annouce he's found "ancient treasure" int he stadt
Sudane Erato: hehe
Salzie Sachertorte: but we'd have to have the dig ready to go
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's one problem we have, Ranma, we *have* to pay for our bills ;)
Moon Adamant: ahahah
Ranma Tardis: yes and encourging residents to stay pays the bills
Moon Adamant: when is the ball?
Salzie Sachertorte: or we could have an ancient Roman statute on display and get the citizens to

"talk up" the new find int he stadt
Salzie Sachertorte: Sunday, august 13th
Moon Adamant: hmmmmm
Salzie Sachertorte: we don't have a time yet as we are meetingwiththe DJ tomorrow
Patroklus Murakami: i like the indiana jones idea :) but 8/15 is prob too soon, yes?
Moon Adamant: mabe not
Salzie Sachertorte: and we'd need someone to create an indiane jones av and play the part
Sudane Erato: we could have something by then
Salzie Sachertorte: any actors in the sim?
Moon Adamant: i think so too
Sudane Erato: haha
Sudane Erato: 33 of them!
Moon Adamant: lol
Salzie Sachertorte: hee eee
Jon Seattle laughs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Salzie Sachertorte: ah, that reminds me we need a Master of Cermonies for the ball
Jon Seattle plays himself
Sudane Erato: and we nominate Pel!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Haven't we agreed on Pelanor? ;)
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: yes!
Patroklus Murakami: yay, for pel!
Salzie Sachertorte: Didi ask him yet
Sudane Erato: no matter!
Sudane Erato: he agrees :)
Moon Adamant: this nominating others thingy is a menace in this sim, lol
Sudane Erato: haha
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh.
Patroklus Murakami: true moon, v true :)
Moon Adamant: you can hardly cross th street without being nominated for something
Sudane Erato: lol
Salzie Sachertorte: haha
Salzie Sachertorte: that's why we need new bloos in the new sim
Sudane Erato: I have a Statosky Roman statue I can lend
Salzie Sachertorte: *blood
Sudane Erato: yes
Salzie Sachertorte: And lastly, I hve the survey results thus far
Salzie Sachertorte: let me give you all a card - just a minute
Moon Adamant: cool, thanks Salzie
Salzie Sachertorte: shit, maybe I don't have a card

Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: np, just a brief resume then?
Salzie Sachertorte: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn ashamedly admits not to have replied either.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The nest survey should be done on the Web, not by email ;)
Patroklus Murakami feels slightly smug about having replied :)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Salzie Sachertorte: well, it wa on th forums - no answered there
Gwyneth Llewelyn giggles
Moon Adamant: lol Pat
Pelanor Eldrich: MC huh. I'm not usually known for protocol, but I'll try. "We're expanding and

will have even bigger balls in the future".
Patroklus Murakami: lol at pel
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: haha
Sudane Erato: yep
Salzie Sachertorte: I have a link to a website on maners at balls
Ranma Tardis: kiah
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it's lovely!
Moon Adamant: oooh, Salzie, i need to have a look at that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I've sent you the link, Moonie!
Moon Adamant: oops
Moon Adamant: you'll hav eto send it again then, lol, sorry
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Ashcroft Burnham has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for the nice blank notecard, Salzie :)
Patroklus Murakami wonders why it's gone so quiet...
Moon Adamant: laughs
Gwyneth Llewelyn was googling for the link for Moon.
Sudane Erato: :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, it's buried somewhere in my IMs, I'll send it to you later.
Moon Adamant: ok Gwyn, thanks
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Did anyone get a non-blank notecard from Salzie?
Moon Adamant: no
Sudane Erato: i got nothing :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww
Patroklus Murakami: nope, didnt' even get a blank one
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hm.
Gwyneth Llewelyn pokes Salzie
Pelanor Eldrich: Thx Salzie, I could use that notecard.
Sudane Erato: haha
Moon Adamant: yes lol, neither blank or filled
Moon Adamant: lol
Jon Seattle: nope
Sudane Erato: she crashed... for shame!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, you're busy, that's why you don't get anything :-P
Moon Adamant: oops, Salzie just crashed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And we managed to crash Salzie with all our catcalling and insulting, lol
Moon Adamant: but i see the message 'you declined... etc'
Sudane Erato: poor girl! :)
Moon Adamant: yes lol
Moon Adamant: ok, while Salzie doesn't log in
Moon Adamant: has the bureau group met?
Patroklus Murakami: i thought claude called a meeting? did it take place?
Patroklus Murakami: wb salzie :)
Salzie Sachertorte: sorry
Moon Adamant: wb Salzie
Salzie Sachertorte: *kicks laptop
Moon Adamant: np :)
Pelanor Eldrich: I'm I in that group? I thought I joined the "chaise longue" group.
Claude Desmoulins: NP with web surveys, just mod the election code.
Claude Desmoulins: I did not call a meeting.
Claude Desmoulins: I asked people for times
Moon Adamant: ok
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
Patroklus Murakami: aaah
Claude Desmoulins: No one ever prooposed one in particular
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True :-P
Gwyneth Llewelyn blames herself, and 24-hour days.
Moon Adamant: ok... is just that point 2 is then adjourned again
Moon Adamant: Salzie, back to you

Claude Desmoulins: I think the key for bureaucracy is for somebod y to be Jeffersonian and just

produce the drafts. Then we'll get moving as we pick them apart :)
Salzie Sachertorte: ah where were we when I crashed?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I guess you're right, Claude...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Moon Adamant: you did pass a blank notecard to Gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, I agreed with you on that, I was just wondering if Diderot had returned

from his holidays :)(
Salzie Sachertorte: it was blank? *sigh*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, Salzie, thanks for the blank notecard :)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Sudane Erato: careful! she'll crash again from shame!!
Salzie Sachertorte: top sekrit
Salzie Sachertorte: you ned the decoder key
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw. Where do I get one??
Salzie Sachertorte: only if you're a NIC
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aw, aw, aw.
Moon Adamant: lol salzie!
Gwyneth Llewelyn cries
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There was one point somewhere on one of the notecards...
Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait. I just remembered that we're still listening to Salzie's ideas for

Gwyneth Llewelyn: YAY!
Salzie Sachertorte: anything on that one?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, very interesting results!
Sudane Erato: hey!
Sudane Erato: I want to see!
Patroklus Murakami: ok, got it now
Moon Adamant feels notecardless
Moon Adamant: :)
Sudane Erato: yes :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Moon, you're busy!
Moon Adamant: ah, thanks Salzie :)
Salzie Sachertorte: everyone get one?
Salzie Sachertorte: any blanks?
Salzie Sachertorte: these won't add up to the same numbers as not everyone answsered every question
Jon Seattle: Thanks Salzie, very interesting
Salzie Sachertorte: and some answered with multiple choices in a category
Salzie Sachertorte: and I will put this up on the forums later today
Patroklus Murakami: yes, v interesting. just scanning now
Salzie Sachertorte: put we cna still get them in, if you didn't answer
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, I was just going over it. It's very, very interesting.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the majority of people don't care about anything but having cheap residential

land. Very cool :)
Moon Adamant: very interesting, though some questions already...
Moon Adamant: yes, lol, just looking that
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like the comment: "the CDS name sucks"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
Claude Desmoulins: Please don't go there
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It does, but here's not the place to discuss it, hehe
Patroklus Murakami: hurrah! (that wasn't me btw :))
Salzie Sachertorte: hee notice I carefullly didn't mention names of responsdents
Claude Desmoulins: Haven't we hashed that enough :)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Moon Adamant: lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, true :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wellllllll
Moon Adamant: one funny thing
Jon Seattle laughs
Gwyneth Llewelyn: once people see the incredible plans for the Sci-FI themed "Confed Capital",
Gwyneth Llewelyn: they'll drool and understand why we have such a cool name :)

Patroklus Murakami: oooh! that sounds nice gwyn
Moon Adamant: everyone wants chap residential land... nobody wants commercial land, but they think

it should cost twice the residential
Jon Seattle lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Salzie, I'll be sending you the emails for William Gibson and Tad Williams and

Greg Bear to come over for the opening of the "Confed Capital" :)
Salzie Sachertorte: um, do we have a list of future planned sims?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not yet hehe
Patroklus Murakami: only in our respective heads
Sudane Erato: William Gibson!!
Sudane Erato: my hero!!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just becase he uses a Mac :)
Sudane Erato: haha
Sudane Erato: no
Claude Desmoulins: Does RA need to revist the percentage, I wonder, given this info?
Sudane Erato: Neuromancer
Moon Adamant: this is a great help indeed for the building wg
Sudane Erato: yes... it is
Salzie Sachertorte: yes, I noticed none of us seem to have a handle on the going ratesfor land in

Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Claude, we still have 40% residential...
Moon Adamant: hmmm Claude, i think this survey should be given to RA indeed
Patroklus Murakami: there's info here of use to finance wg too, ty salzie :)
Claude Desmoulins: Right and 50$ commercial when the demand is leaning heavily the other way.
Moon Adamant: yes, it is true that commercial is also residential
Claude Desmoulins: 50% sorry
Claude Desmoulins: Good point
Moon Adamant: and that isn't clear here
Patroklus Murakami: but the ones answerign are largely current nstadt citizens, yes? less likely to

want residential land
Moon Adamant: what i have noticed too is that apparently people don't want to own the roads etc
Moon Adamant: so perhaps an adjsutment is needed so that we can pass those into public land?
Sudane Erato: hmmm... yes
Jon Seattle: I wonder if they understand that that can serve to increase prim limits?
Patroklus Murakami: yes moon, i think ppl see road maintenance as 'city business'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh oh. Will this mean a *major redesign*.... again???
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, one could get rid of the "business plots" around the amphitheatre, and make

them residential
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And hmm,
Moon Adamant: hmmm, possibly not
Gwyneth Llewelyn: most people forget that "commercial" also means "residential", it's just probbaly

going to cost more.
Salzie Sachertorte: well there is lot of interest in renting booths, rather than buying commerce

Moon Adamant: well, this helps to estimate teh revenues too
Moon Adamant: yes, i was noticing just that
Salzie Sachertorte: so maybe the commercial land can be city held, yet rented
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm.
Salzie Sachertorte: and... we can rent to those who don't want to buy into the govenance stuff
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh
Sudane Erato: or... maybe we should permit the rental of parcels by citizens
Salzie Sachertorte: or be seen as a part of the commies in NFS
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That reminds me of my very old wars regarding the meaning of "citizenship".
Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
Sudane Erato: yes!

Sudane Erato: true
Patroklus Murakami: ppl who rent don't get votes? not sure i agrre with that! not the case in RL

after all
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Salzie, the problem is mostly about "equal rights" to citizens,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and really,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: much blood was already spilled because of that ;)
Sudane Erato: Pat, its a complex issue
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Virtual blood mostly :)
Sudane Erato: hehe
Salzie Sachertorte: ah, I feel some old war stories in the offing
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes. Too complex for this meeting, although we could open up another discussion

on the forums, it'll take a few months ;)
Sudane Erato: hehe... yes
Sudane Erato: actually, we DID achieve consensus about that!
Moon Adamant: Salzie, thanks for this, it helps a lot
Sudane Erato: lets not forget
Patroklus Murakami: yes, perhaps best to save it for the forums. we could even schedule it :)
Moon Adamant: this is a nice base for work indeed
Moon Adamant: now
Moon Adamant: shall we adjourn?
Sudane Erato: sure
Jon Seattle nods
Patroklus Murakami: sure
Moon Adamant: before we reach the record of 4 hours?
Salzie Sachertorte: okay
Ranma Tardis: sure
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Heh.
Moon Adamant: ok
Pelanor Eldrich: sure, and I'm happy to discuss my radical citizenship reforms anytime. :)
Moon Adamant: next meeting
Sudane Erato: only 3 :)
Moon Adamant: ah, i was wondering lol, thanks Sudane, you+re quite right
Moon Adamant: next meeting in 15 days, here, same hour?
Sudane Erato: thats the ball day
Salzie Sachertorte: what day is that?
Moon Adamant: ah
Salzie Sachertorte: Up nope, cna't
Patroklus Murakami: on monday? cant' make that
Salzie Sachertorte: have to get bea-tee-ful that day
Sudane Erato: oh! Monday!
Sudane Erato: no, I can't either
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yessss
Moon Adamant: hmmm one week is far too short
Sudane Erato: what about Saturday?
Gwyneth Llewelyn admits to having bought the appropriate hair already ;)
Sudane Erato: the 12th?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Saturday is fine, before noon SLT please.
Moon Adamant: ok for me
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or eventually at 5 PM SLT
Ranma Tardis: cant make it
Jon Seattle nods
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ouch.
Ranma Tardis: well maybe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 6 PM SLT?
Patroklus Murakami: sat works for me, but not after 4pm :(
Sudane Erato: I can't do after 2 SLT on Saturdays
Moon Adamant: hmmmm, 2AM GMT
Sudane Erato: PM
Patroklus Murakami: indeed moon
Moon Adamant: you know i can't guarantee neron activity after 2.30 AM GMT, lol
Moon Adamant: neuron*
Moon Adamant: somewhere in the week?
Sudane Erato: haha
Sudane Erato: any day after 3 PM SLT
Moon Adamant: yes, after 3PM SLT is good for me too
Moon Adamant: but i know that isn't true for all
Patroklus Murakami: i can make 3pm SLT for an hour or two most days (except thurs next week)
Moon Adamant: just that i feel we need to have a conclusion in beginning of september
Moon Adamant: and the earlier the better
Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with 3 PM, except on Saturdays
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well

Gwyneth Llewelyn: there can be ONE exception, for ONE Saturday.
Moon Adamant: so i really didn't want to pull the next meeting for 3 weeks away
Gwyneth Llewelyn: My RL friends will survive :)
Moon Adamant: yes, here too
Moon Adamant: so, saturday?
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Moon Adamant: what time?
Salzie Sachertorte: well, if I know of the dat ahead of time, I can take some time off of work to

come on a weekday
Sudane Erato: before 2 PM
Moon Adamant: noon pm SLT*
Ranma Tardis: too early have to work
Moon Adamant: ?
Moon Adamant: hmmmm
Patroklus Murakami: i can make noon sat
Sudane Erato: here is where we need webcollab
Moon Adamant: yes
Moon Adamant: i think we will have to decide the time by majority, guys
Patroklus Murakami: look we can't possibly find a time when we can all make it. can we agree to let

moon fix a time and if we cna make it, we make it?
Sudane Erato: yes
Claude Desmoulins: There are lots of issues here.
Sudane Erato: i agree Pat
Moon Adamant: let's agree on saturday the 12th?
Salzie Sachertorte: sure, and if we can't we can give her a report ahead of time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with everything, lol
Patroklus Murakami: yes, good suggestion salzie
Moon Adamant: and decide the time using webcollab or a forum poll?
Moon Adamant: yes, please, good idea?
Jon Seattle: brb phone
Patroklus Murakami: i think we should grant u dictator powers for this issue, moon :)
Sudane Erato: better say the noon time now...
Moon Adamant: lol
Sudane Erato: or whenever
Sudane Erato: give us time to get webcollab in use
Moon Adamant: ah sudane, i could make a poll with slots
Sudane Erato: oh
Claude Desmoulins: Noon on the 12th?
Sudane Erato: ok
Jon Seattle: back
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok on Claude's suggestion.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Jon :D
Moon Adamant: wb Jon :)
Patroklus Murakami: me too, agree to claude's suggestion
Moon Adamant: ok, so it's 4 for noon
Jon Seattle smiles at everyone
Moon Adamant: if i am going to skip my saturday thingy, any time is good
Moon Adamant: so, next meeting:
Moon Adamant: noon SLT, 12th August, here at the Rathaus
Claude Desmoulins: Consider me an abstain.
Ranma Tardis: me too
Sudane Erato: ok!
Jon Seattle: Sure!
Patroklus Murakami: i vote yes
Sudane Erato: I move adjournment!
Claude Desmoulins: My kids schedules are too flexible during daylight hours.
Moon Adamant: yes, sorry Claude and Ranma
Patroklus Murakami: let's g-g-g-g-g-go!
Ranma Tardis: I have duty
Claude Desmoulins: So when is it?
Moon Adamant: but i really must set one time
Moon Adamant: noon SLT, 12th August, here at the Rathaus
Claude Desmoulins: OK
Pelanor Eldrich: k
Patroklus Murakami: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Puting much of this on the forums might broaden the discussion.
Moon Adamant: ok, adjourned
Salzie Sachertorte: k
Claude Desmoulins: Bye all.
Jon Seattle: Bye all!
Patroklus Murakami: bye everyone :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree ? I don't know if it's good or not, LOL
Sudane Erato: bye :)
Ranma Tardis: bye bye
Moon Adamant: lol

Gwyneth Llewelyn: And bye to everybody happily logging off :D
Moon Adamant: bye everyone wh is leaving
Pelanor Eldrich: Bye all. Bye Bye and Buy Bonds!
Moon Adamant: LOL
Sudane Erato: hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL Pel!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pelanor, you're crazy!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... not that I haven't noticed before :)
Moon Adamant: Sudane, can i ask you for the transcript :)
Salzie Sachertorte: ah, feels good to stand and strectch one's legs
Sudane Erato: yes!
Sudane Erato: I'll grab it and send it right over
Moon Adamant: it does inded Salzie!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Salzie.
Moon Adamant: ok, i'll post it and do the event thingy
Claude Desmoulins: Hi Ashcroft
Sudane Erato: yes
Moon Adamant: thank you all for coming to the meeting :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello Ashcroft!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And our pleasure, Moonie!
Salzie Sachertorte: thank you for running it Moon
Claude Desmoulins: You could have come upstairs and sat down.
Moon Adamant: brb :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, we're quite open :)
Jon Seattle smiles
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I'll be off as well.... see you guys later!
Jon Seattle: See you!
Jon Seattle: Bye Gwyn :)


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