Land sales by CDS in near future

Forum to discuss and coordinate the expansion of the CDS and the redevelopment of existing territories.

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Jamie Palisades
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Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Jamie Palisades »

Trying to find a fair (and reasonably fiscally sound) way to sell the land controlled by our government can be a challenge.
-- We've often been in high demand, with more buyers than land to sell. It took me months and months to buy into CDS in 2006-07. We're getting there again, I am pleased to see.
-- In the ancien regime, parcel availability was posted on the former web site, but with a lot of laggy update issues.
-- In practice, Sudane as estate owner just kept track of buyers and sellers, and tried to match them up. Practical, but not transparent. Also, more work for her than she wants, or we deserve from her.
-- We usually have "pre-sold" new full sims. The good news? Fiscal safety. The bad news (in my opinion)? Existing residents swoop in and often get all the best lots, so that for citizen expansion purposes, only the apparently-less-attractive lots are left over.
-- We have been changing our laws to give ourselves some more options.

Here's what I am doing in the short term. We are experimenting with some options to see what works best.
1. Five residential Altstadt Neufreistadt lots go on sale tomorrow (Wednesday SLT). See the next announcement (dated today) for details. Open sale, no special rules (except that the NFS covenants apply, obviously).
2. Commercial land in NFS and CN (at least 6 lots) will be opened for BID on Thursday. See the announcement here, on Thursday SLT, for details. Our revised commerce laws require a bidding process ... I had to make one up :D so it took a little time, sorry. Per our laws, some of them will be offered at the 50% rent rate. This will include the CN city parcels that the Guild has proposed to re-parcel (modify boundaries).
3. All other land *reclaimed* by CDS will be re-sold later this month using the beta test of our new land management methods. Which, unlike open sale, will attempt to incorporate some availability-transparency and intake management. More postings on that within a week. I committed to the RA to run that test during January :) so here we are.

There are some other steps we ought to take in the longer range, but that will be for the new RA (seated 1 Feb) and the government they select. I will post some notes about my suggestions as a part of the chancellor application process (in the General Discussion thread), later this month.

Regards Jamie

== My Second Life home is CDS. Retired after three terms
== as chancellor of the oldest self-governing sims in SL.
Salzie Sachertorte
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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

*post withdrawn*

Last edited by Salzie Sachertorte on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Pip Torok »

Salzie Sachertorte wrote:

What is so wrong with citizens who have supported the CDS, through thick and thin, from "swooping in" and purchasing desirable land? After all, they have provided the fiscal stability of the CDS.

With respect, Salzie, it's the fact that they _are_ citizens who have "supported CDS, through thick and thin". They (we?) are, of course free to talk,
but I would imagine that they'd prefer a CDS that expands by virtue of more such citizens, to one that expands geograpically, scenically, and in
fiscal health, but with a limited, possibly self-perpetuating electorate.

What sort of expansion do we want? What sort of CDS do we want?

Ranma Tardis

Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Ranma Tardis »

Pip Torok wrote:
Salzie Sachertorte wrote:

What is so wrong with citizens who have supported the CDS, through thick and thin, from "swooping in" and purchasing desirable land? After all, they have provided the fiscal stability of the CDS.

With respect, Salzie, it's the fact that they _are_ citizens who have "supported CDS, through thick and thin". They (we?) are, of course free to talk,
but I would imagine that they'd prefer a CDS that expands by virtue of more such citizens, to one that expands geograpically, scenically, and in
fiscal health, but with a limited, possibly self-perpetuating electorate.

What sort of expansion do we want? What sort of CDS do we want?

I find this very interesting. Expats like me supported the project when it really counted. When there was only one sim after the coup d’état in 2006. The community was much more interesting in those days. I found myself with time switching my support to the founders. I never approved the current name, the majority forced itself upon the minority and it is the same today. The current form of government lacks protections for the minority. Pure democracy is really rule by mob law there has to be more than majority rule. Across our planet from region to region one can see this conflict being played out. The new minority or those who favor German Bavarian Sims are being forced out by the majority who favor Med Sims even though there is no market for such. There are other issues as well, the current form is government is entirely too complex for the size of the community. I was with the government of the City of Hampton Virginia with a population of one hundred thousand people. What is the population of the CDS? Why are things so hard for the government to do things? I read about payment to the Princess and that event was shocking. The CDS was fighting about the product after the contract was made and awarded and the product delivered. Then it was found that the permissions were not set correctly and payment was refused. There was a lot of UGLY over what should of been a minor event.
Yes the current government is controlled by a self-perpetuating oligarchy. I could not in good faith support such with my quiet consent and money. I was empowering the very events to which were objectionable to me and the only clear course of action was to leave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
http://www.answers.com/topic/coup-d-tat

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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Salzie Sachertorte »

*post withdrawn*

Last edited by Salzie Sachertorte on Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Pip Torok »

Ranma Tardis wrote:
Pip Torok wrote:
Salzie Sachertorte wrote:

What is so wrong with citizens who have supported the CDS, through thick and thin, from "swooping in" and purchasing desirable land? After all, they have provided the fiscal stability of the CDS.

With respect, Salzie, it's the fact that they _are_ citizens who have "supported CDS, through thick and thin". They (we?) are, of course free to talk,
but I would imagine that they'd prefer a CDS that expands by virtue of more such citizens, to one that expands geograpically, scenically, and in
fiscal health, but with a limited, possibly self-perpetuating electorate.

What sort of expansion do we want? What sort of CDS do we want?

I find this very interesting. Expats like me supported the project when it really counted. When there was only one sim after the coup d’état in 2006. The community was much more interesting in those days. I found myself with time switching my support to the founders. I never approved the current name, the majority forced itself upon the minority and it is the same today. The current form of government lacks protections for the minority. Pure democracy is really rule by mob law there has to be more than majority rule. Across our planet from region to region one can see this conflict being played out. The new minority or those who favor German Bavarian Sims are being forced out by the majority who favor Med Sims even though there is no market for such. There are other issues as well, the current form is government is entirely too complex for the size of the community. I was with the government of the City of Hampton Virginia with a population of one hundred thousand people. What is the population of the CDS? Why are things so hard for the government to do things? I read about payment to the Princess and that event was shocking. The CDS was fighting about the product after the contract was made and awarded and the product delivered. Then it was found that the permissions were not set correctly and payment was refused. There was a lot of UGLY over what should of been a minor event.
Yes the current government is controlled by a self-perpetuating oligarchy. I could not in good faith support such with my quiet consent and money. I was empowering the very events to which were objectionable to me and the only clear course of action was to leave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
http://www.answers.com/topic/coup-d-tat

I'm a little worried by that last post, Ranma.

I wonder whether you're agreeing with a view which I certainly do not hold, but one it appears you think I hold.

This view seems to be that a citizen is interested primarily in perpetuating a group that is more exclusive than inclusive, a group that "controls" a government, and hence the rest of CDS ("plebeians"?)
Please correct me if my assessment is not accurate.

My idea of citizens depend on these criteria:

-- they have a solid sense of democracy, decency and fair play.

-- they have a sense of social evolution as exemplified in, say, Karl Popper's "The Open Society and its Enemies".

-- they do not wish to stifle or exclude (with the possible exception of those who in turn DO wish to stifle and exclude)

-- they are "open to all the talents" and are themselves, as individuals, open to change.

When I referred to "more such citizens", Ranma, it was these criteria I had in mind. The last thing they would wish for is an oligarchy, or anything like it.

I'll go further. The last thing _we_ wish for is an oligarchy.

Yours,

Pip Torok

Ranma Tardis

Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Ranma Tardis »

Sometimes we aspire for better but end up supporting something very different. The reason for the cycles of new people arriving, new people questioning/conflict and new people departing is the stagnate nature of the CDS. If the elite do not want something they can change to rules and prevent it from happening.
Unlike real life we do not need second life. In our real lives we need food, shelter, medical, etc. There are no real needs in a second life government besides collecting and distributing payment to Linden Labs with anything else being "fluff".
The current rulers an select group want things to appear to be fair but that is not true. I was shouted down by the few with their "shut up and work". They want people to think of what nice people they are but it is not true.
The CDS is club for government and perhaps a model of how it fails its citizens when the elite are able to push their concerns/needs over the best interests of the people they are suppose to serve. In the end it is about the elites desire overpowering any sense of duty to the community they are suppose to serve.

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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Rose Springvale »

deleted my lengthy message to NOT perpetuate the flaming. I WILL send it directly to Ranma.

sorry,
rose

Ranma Tardis

Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Ranma Tardis »

My post are not flames as it is not my intention to do such. The CDS for its problems has been going along rather well for the past 3 years. There is a stable core to the community and Sudane is truly a marvelous keeper of the Sims and money. It must be hard to be under such temptation. Am not sure if I could do such a good job.
Do not think a democratic government is possible in a open second life environment. The ease of making alts and the corruption of the process. There is the trust factor in a second life community that fosters a distrust over even simple things. I am not sure if it is even needed. Government is done to ensure that certain things happen.
I can not make my point come across without people thinking it was a personal attack. Politics is a tough business and feelings often get hurt during the process. It just can not be helped! I am not the first person in the CDS to have hurt feelings and will not be the last. I admit to becoming the "mockingbird" and have perhaps distanced myself to achieve this.
Again the people who make the CDS possible do such a good job doing so and put a lot of time and effort into this process. Am not sure if I could put the dedication into this process.
The beauty of second life is we can be in a community of our own desire. I did not like a lot of what happened in the community and unlike real life was able to leave it for the community of my desire. I am still thinking of making a doubleganger sim of neuf but it will not be a democracy. In fact it will be under my sole control. I will also the the responsible person for payments. Those who think my actions are "childlike" and immature are more correct than wrong. I would not disagree with these people. My actions have not been entirely correct but are not entirely wrong.

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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

Democracy is hard, and it's also slow — some believe that's the right way to do things (ie. slowly, but engaging all citizens). But as Desmond so often says in these forums, autocracy is much faster and (often) more efficient. So, good luck with your project!

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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Robert Walpole »

That may well be so (although there are democracies that are both efficient and effective); the problem however, is that what you have in CDS, Gwyn, is a corrupt authoritarian and exclusivist system of rule masquerading as a democracy where some people think they have the right to decide who is and is not ready to run for office and keep the "unworthy" out, where some groups believe they have the right to insult, demean and run out other groups, and where public officials move eternally from one office to the other and keep the only powers that matter to themselves. Your elections are no more democratic than those which used to take place under Communist "people's democracies" and the way people are treated in CDS by the ruling elite no better than what the communist nomenklatura used to do to its dissidents: personal defamation, show trials, expulsion, ostracism. This is how CDS has been run for years and continues to be run today, despite the holier-than-thou claims of some that its system is somehow superior to Caledon, where at least there is an openness, accountability, friendliness and basic human decency of owners and managers towards their members which is sorely lacking in the so called CDS "public service". So, if I were you, I would protest less when citizens exercise their right to criticize the existing system (especially when such a citizen has been effectively run out of your community) and try harder to actually live up to the entirely misleading propaganda of CDS being "the first true democracy in SL". It is none of the kind and it will never be as long as a small, self-perpetuating group of people control it, make all the decisions that matter and purge time after time those "undersirable elements" who try to shake things up and make the system slightly more open, more accountable, more efficient, more democratic and less corrupt than what it is today and has been for so very long.

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Jamie Palisades
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Re: Land sales ... (exclusionism?) (crosspost)

Post by Jamie Palisades »

The topic has changed from land to elitism :)
So I am making my comments over in a different thread where it belongs
See http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 281#p12710

Regards JP

== My Second Life home is CDS. Retired after three terms
== as chancellor of the oldest self-governing sims in SL.
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Re: Land sales by CDS in near future

Post by Pip Torok »

Salzie Sachertorte wrote:
Pip Torok wrote:
Salzie Sachertorte wrote:

What is so wrong with citizens who have supported the CDS, through thick and thin, from "swooping in" and purchasing desirable land? After all, they have provided the fiscal stability of the CDS.

With respect, Salzie, it's the fact that they _are_ citizens who have "supported CDS, through thick and thin". They (we?) are, of course free to talk,
but I would imagine that they'd prefer a CDS that expands by virtue of more such citizens, to one that expands geograpically, scenically, and in
fiscal health, but with a limited, possibly self-perpetuating electorate.

What sort of expansion do we want? What sort of CDS do we want?

I don't understand what you are saying. You want to preclude current citizens from purchasing land in the new sims? They tend to anchor the new sims and give support to the newbies.

No, Salzie, in no way do I want to _preclude_ current citizens from purchasing land in the new sims.

What I want is for them to hold something in their mind while they do.

Just as in filibustering, where speaking to none or bad effect prevents productive debate, purchasing _can_, though not necessarily _must_, close up the chance that CDS benefits from new, future citizens.

Will these _citizens_ add democratic spice and a new perspective? I hope so, but cannot be sure. Will they instead be supine hangers-on -- flotsome rather than anchors to new sims? I fervently hope not, but, again, cannot be sure.

And again, the argument goes away in circumstances where new land is readily available, or where sales ensure a lively turnround.

But I hope that current citizens (noting the "D" in CDS) remember _how citizens get to be citizens_ when thinking to purchase land in new or not-so-new sims.

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Re: Land sales by CDS (room for newbies)

Post by Jamie Palisades »

Responding to Pip's point:
One land-zoning thing that we did, that works, was to create lots with specific attractiveness to new citizens. Look at the 7 or 8 "condo" lots on Alpine Meadows. Note, the (very nice Jon-Seattle-designed) houses cannot be removed, so there is not much risk of consolidation into a "Beverly Hills tear-down mansionette." Also, I note that they always always get purchased right away, when they're vacant :).

Regards JP

== My Second Life home is CDS. Retired after three terms
== as chancellor of the oldest self-governing sims in SL.
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