Back to civility and elites, I guess

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Jamie Palisades
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Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Jamie Palisades »

Two of my favorite topics :) The need for civil decent behavior in a community ... and how to deal with perceived elitism.
Carrying this thread over from the Land board, where it wandered into a different topic.

Ranma voiced, and our occasional visitor PMRobert chimed in on, some kind of screed about exclusion and being forced out.
Baloney. I like Ranma, actually, a lot. I'm very happy she made it back to us safely, and sorry she chose to leave again so soon.

But no one chased her away. What happened is, she had some strong opinions .. she voiced them ... she got strong opposition ... and she didn't like it, so she left. There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Of course, if you want to tell people they're all wrong (about Colonia Nova, Al Andalus, and all the other stuff she said we were doing wrong), you're probably going to get disagreements :D One way to approach that is to criticize people in a reasonably diplomatic tone. That helps make them less likely to slag you. It's possible to stay in the game and argue ... persuasively ... for your point of view, and change minds and hearts over time.

Another option, of course, is to loudly decry elitism and conspiracies. A third is to attack, either as an overt cranky critic (Prokofy Neva comes to mind), or a covert, whispering bad-mouther of others.

Personally, when I got here, I found the ruling elite of CDS a little annoying, self-satisfied and inbred. And yes, after 2 years here I STILL sometimes am frustrated with the adamant, emotional resistance to change from some longtime power holders, on a virtual sim some hardly even visit anymore. But, for the last year, I've been one of those government officials. Plenty of power to make change.

All I can do is do good work, try to be a good listener, and demonstrate an open minded approach: willingness to accept ideas different from mine, and gratitude for everyone's contributions.

There's nothing wrong with Ranma's decision. Consider how much MORE mature that was, than people in past CDS terms who in the same position instead put great energy into combative, bitchy, meanspirited fighting. Some people just like forming lynch mobs better than collaborating. So far in four years, the CDS government has been overthrown once ... almost twice ... and ground to a screeching halt a few more times. (I think that's what Gwyn means by "slow.")

However, in CDS, I am completely confident that "the popular kids" won't ... and can't ... gang up on people they just don't like. The community' as a whole is too diverse and too powerful, and simply won't allow it. That makes me smile. Look at the core of stable, mature, collaborative people we have here who really set the tone. Just to make the point -- do you really think that Sudane, Sonja, Moon, Brian, Pip, Rose, Justice, Lilith, Cindy and Delia would tolerate a government that petulantly banned its opponents, critics or ex-girlfriends? Even though they all are from different sides and don't agree much on policy ...

Our "deep bench" of calm, smart, fair, diverse neighbors is our biggest asset. We're not doing so badly, all things considered.

Regards JP

== My Second Life home is CDS. Retired after three terms
== as chancellor of the oldest self-governing sims in SL.
Ranma Tardis

Re: Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Ranma Tardis »

Jamie,
I would like to point out all of the people that have left the CDS an who would have nothing to do with it. A lot of them just left quietly and never made a fuss. This however does not negate the fact that they left. What would of happen if they stayed and helped with the community instead of being driven out? I am on speaking terms with only one to the "power players" in the CDS.
I overheard a meeting of the New Guild, remind people am still a member of the old Guild that Kendra created. Sudane took control of the old guild after the coup or rather in a sense created a new one in which she was the exclusive power behind 1/3 of the government of that time. I was REFUSED admission to the guild for reasons she never made clear. At time I started my move of alignment with Kendra and Ulrika that were driven away. I still think that Ulrika was prodded into a lot of her actions. Only the winning side is represented on the net these days and it is rather RUDE and one sided. I remember the Soviets used provocation to get their foes to break the law and allow the government to get rid of them. Back to the New Guild meeting it did not seem productive as the group was trying so hard not to make a stand on anything. This is perhaps the most pressing problem of the CDS, the act of taking RESPONSIBILITY for their actions and from her private message "it is not my job". They kept congratulating themselves and it got real bad.
So a lot of people left and was told to direct my energy towards the good of the CDS. Not sure how that would of happened when I am against most of the positions of the three factions.
Oh yea where does the minority get a voice when they do not have a direct vote? If you are not a member of a faction or are a member of a small faction you do not have a vote. You can only vote for a faction and you have to rank them giving support to people you do not support at all.
I have been civil during this entire time and still refuse to take the supporting role. The democracy of the CDS is not true and the self congratulations are out of order. You can attack me, ban me from the forums and sims but you will never silence me. I seem to have run out of words and if this does not get through nothing will!

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Sonja Strom
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Re: Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Sonja Strom »

Ranma, although I feel I can understand some of your frustrations, it is interesting to observe that if you had remained a CDS citizen over this past week you would now be an elected member of the Representative Assembly. As it is, the SP has an empty seat to fill (http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2282).

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Aliasi Stonebender
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Re: Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

Ranma Tardis wrote:

I overheard a meeting of the New Guild, remind people am still a member of the old Guild that Kendra created. Sudane took control of the old guild after the coup or rather in a sense created a new one in which she was the exclusive power behind 1/3 of the government of that time. I was REFUSED admission to the guild for reasons she never made clear. At time I started my move of alignment with Kendra and Ulrika that were driven away. I still think that Ulrika was prodded into a lot of her actions. Only the winning side is represented on the net these days and it is rather RUDE and one sided.

Ranma:

I won't respond to your criticisms; I'm basically a private citizen and I quite intentionally keep to myself these days, with content archivist being my only real involvement. Since the SP won three seats we'll have to see how that works out. I'm pretty sure there'll be someone else in the faction with more interest than me and I hardly have the time these days. Still, I say this as someone who was there since the start, and had my own little part in instigating things:

You are factually wrong with Ulrika at the least, and I attribute more charitable motives and reasons to Sudane's motives. You were refused admission for perfectly clear reasons Sudane was doing her damnedest to kill the old Guild (so far as I could see) as it was a worthless albatross. I point out that the results can't be argued with; as slow as the CDS can move these days, we've done more in less time since then without having to hope for the good graces of a single Guildmaster. Ulrika considered democracy no more than a buzzword to be discarded when things didn't go her way. It was not a coup, it was the majority of the population at the time. Ulrika's only supporter was Kendra, and Kendra regretted it in part later.

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Moon Adamant
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Re: Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Moon Adamant »

The problem of just eavesdropping one NG Board meeting is that one may lose significant nuances, such as:

. The New Guild is NOT the old Guild.

. The New Guild Board is open to all citizens.

. The New Guild Board is an adhocracy, which means that all citizens present can vote.

. The New Guild Board aims ideally at consensus (thus our preference for iterative processes) and at decisions that are supported by the consensus of those present, or at least a majority of those present.

Surely, it may look slow to someone who chooses the role of outsider rather than the one of participant :) Nevertheless, i believe that even an outsider, after the reading of our forum http://forums.slcds.info/viewforum.php?f=25, which contains our charter, agendas, transcripts, summaries, planning, etc, will gather a more accurate opinion about the NG :)

Eudaimonia now!
Ranma Tardis

Re: Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Ranma Tardis »

Aliasi Stonebender wrote:
Ranma Tardis wrote:

I overheard a meeting of the New Guild, remind people am still a member of the old Guild that Kendra created. Sudane took control of the old guild after the coup or rather in a sense created a new one in which she was the exclusive power behind 1/3 of the government of that time. I was REFUSED admission to the guild for reasons she never made clear. At time I started my move of alignment with Kendra and Ulrika that were driven away. I still think that Ulrika was prodded into a lot of her actions. Only the winning side is represented on the net these days and it is rather RUDE and one sided.

Ranma:

I won't respond to your criticisms; I'm basically a private citizen and I quite intentionally keep to myself these days, with content archivist being my only real involvement. Since the SP won three seats we'll have to see how that works out. I'm pretty sure there'll be someone else in the faction with more interest than me and I hardly have the time these days. Still, I say this as someone who was there since the start, and had my own little part in instigating things:

You are factually wrong with Ulrika at the least, and I attribute more charitable motives and reasons to Sudane's motives. You were refused admission for perfectly clear reasons Sudane was doing her damnedest to kill the old Guild (so far as I could see) as it was a worthless albatross. I point out that the results can't be argued with; as slow as the CDS can move these days, we've done more in less time since then without having to hope for the good graces of a single Guildmaster. Ulrika considered democracy no more than a buzzword to be discarded when things didn't go her way. It was not a coup, it was the majority of the population at the time. Ulrika's only supporter was Kendra, and Kendra regretted it in part later.

We do not agree on either count. The guild was a method to prevent mob rule by the RA and Sudane's "charity" was a elitists one. I saw the guild as part of a check and balance but this is a very AMERICAN view. The old government had three parts like the American ones each with its own special abilities and it took consensus of the three to change the rules.
My memories of this event differ from the others. I had a hard time supporting the coup and new government. I should of stood my ground and supported the founders even though it would of meant exile with them. I took the easy way out (as usual) and stood by and did nothing. Think it is as guilty of having done the deed. Instead of confronting Kendra and Ulrika why didn't the group move on to its own sim ans start a democracy using your own vision instead of subverting an existing one and starting a civil war?

While I am sure Ulrika made a lot of mistakes just do not see the perfection and righteous from the residents who became the new government and owner of the sim. It looked to me like a mob of people knocking a person to the ground and then kicking them into submission and exile. She then fought back the only way it was possible.
If you are offended GOOD! If you want a carefree "Barney the purple Dino" sort of life you will not find it in an adult environment. I have to leave and start my trip home in real life.
Ask yourself if you are really mad who are you mad at and why??

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Aliasi Stonebender
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Re: Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

Ranma Tardis wrote:
Aliasi Stonebender wrote:

While I am sure Ulrika made a lot of mistakes just do not see the perfection and righteous from the residents who became the new government and owner of the sim. It looked to me like a mob of people knocking a person to the ground and then kicking them into submission and exile. She then fought back the only way it was possible.
If you are offended GOOD! If you want a carefree "Barney the purple Dino" sort of life you will not find it in an adult environment. I have to leave and start my trip home in real life.
Ask yourself if you are really mad who are you mad at and why??

Ranma, the only one mad here is you. At everyone and everything, so it seems. The reason we didn't 'move' is because it was our sim - why should we have moved? DEMOCRACY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

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Ranma Tardis

Re: Back to civility and elites, I guess

Post by Ranma Tardis »

Aliasi Stonebender wrote:

Ranma, the only one mad here is you. At everyone and everything, so it seems. The reason we didn't 'move' is because it was our sim - why should we have moved? DEMOCRACY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.

Think I understand it at last and do not like the answer.
Aliasi you are so kind to call me mad but we never did see things the same. I have always had a deepest respect for you and still have such. You just have cemented by beliefs.
Well my last post on this subject and knowing the past will help me at least not repeat the past. it was a bold thing our founders did and look at what it got us in the end, hmmm nothing into nothing into nothing. It is like some endless cycle repeating itself over and over and over. Second life is a lot like our real lives but at a faster pace.
Well enough of this, a large block of cheese is going to drop on me to compliment the whine soon. I give up on democracy in Second Life, it is NOT possible. I use to talk to Rudy about this and he came to the same conclusion as myself only years before. If I want to do government will run for public office in the city of Claremore Oklahoma. I am very big on environmental issues and recycling.
Thank you everyone for your responses and Rose all of this predates you and even myself was a lurker instead of active party. I think everyone including myself has been following our own self interests and while I am not going to finger point will not repeat my mistake of December. There is no returning to the past, we must look toward our future! I hold no grunges and think the people of the CDS are exceptional.
sayonara

Ranma

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