RA Meeting March 15 TRANSCRIPT

[Cindy Ecksol]

[9:26] Symo Kurka: Among multiple crashes we try to start
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so sorry, I crshed as well---
[9:26] Symo Kurka: I have ni changes to this agenda
[9:26] Symo Kurka: *no
[9:27] Symo Kurka: As i did not receive any proposal
[9:27] Delia Lake: /i crashed also. hi everyone
[9:27] Arria Perreault: nothing related to GMP?
[9:27] Arria Perreault: or to expansion?
[9:27] Symo Kurka: I therefore start with asking to Arria to limit herself to the second part (open citizen's proposals and discussion)
[9:28] Arria Perreault: thank you so much10m)
[9:30] Sonja Strom: Hi Kedwyn!
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Kedwyn!
[9:31] Cindy Ecksol: sorry! crashed...
[9:31] Kedwyn Parmelee: me too
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ack SL is a *mess* today!!
[9:31] Justice Soothsayer: every time I fully rezz out of the cloud, I crash
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[9:32] Symo Kurka: Delia Solomon please indicate consent
[9:32] Delia Lake: the number of crashes doesn't bode well for sl today..
[9:32] Symo Kurka: So we were at poin one
[9:32] Symo Kurka: *point one
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed, Delia
[9:33] Symo Kurka: bill for referendum, sonja do you want to speak?
[9:33] Sonja Strom: Hi everybody
[9:34] Sonja Strom: Ever since I first came to the CDS in February of 2007 I have thought it would be a good idea for the citizens to have an ability to vote on major decisions about the direction the community will take.
[9:35] Sonja Strom: The other side of that same way of looking at things is,
[9:35] Sonja Strom: I have thought it would be good for the RA to have a good way to poll the citizens about their wishes on large matters.
[9:36] Sonja Strom: Symo, did you want to speak?
[9:36] Sonja Strom: You are standing.
[9:36] Symo Kurka: Well i just add as i sais sometimes on forums i do agree and share the idea
[9:36] Symo Kurka: oh n o lol
[9:36] Sonja Strom: ok
[9:36] Sonja Strom:
[9:37] Symo Kurka: have you got a Bill proposal Sonja?
[9:37] Sonja Strom: Yes, I am speaking about a bill I would like to propose.
[9:37] Sonja Strom: Is this not what is on the agenda?
[9:38] Symo Kurka: yes sure go on
[9:38] Sonja Strom: ok, thanks
[9:38] Sonja Strom: I actually was surprised to find there was not something in place to do this,
[9:38] Sonja Strom: since the CDS is proud to describe itself as a self-governing, democratic community.
[9:39] Sonja Strom: I think it is very important that the CDS government do everything it can to include the citizens in decision-making, so everybody's opinion can be heard and taken into consideration.
[9:39] Cindy Ecksol grumbles and wonders how she could just disappear from SL like that!
[9:40] Sonja Strom: wb Cindy
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (same here, Cindy )
[9:40] Kedwyn Parmelee: grrrrr
[9:40] Sonja Strom wonders that too...
[9:40] Symo Kurka: well you see in european countries referenda are very common, but not so in Us i suppose
[9:40] Sonja Strom: Please, I am not finished,
[9:41] Sonja Strom: The factions the citizens vote on do all have platforms stating their views and intentions,
[9:41] Sonja Strom: and the citizens rank their preference among these when voting.
[9:41] Sonja Strom: But,
[9:42] Sonja Strom: often the platforms do not speak directly to one decision in particular,
[9:42] Sonja Strom: but are generalistic in nature.
[9:42] Sonja Strom: There are also issues upon which the platforms of all parties agree,
[9:42] Sonja Strom: leaving no alternative choice at all to the citizens when they are voting for factions.
[9:42] Sonja Strom: The CDS Forum does have a poll feature,
[9:43] Sonja Strom: which can be helpful and informative,
[9:43] Sonja Strom: but not all of the CDS citizens read the forum discussions,
[9:43] Sonja Strom: or participate there.
[9:44] Sonja Strom: In addition, there are also non-citizens and former citizens who have the same access to the Forum as the current citizens do.
[9:44] Sonja Strom: During the term I was last in the RA,
[9:44] Sonja Strom: I put a lot of work into allowing the community to have Referendum voting.
[9:45] Sonja Strom: Recently I described this in the Forum here:
[9:45] Sonja Strom: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... =15#p13012
[9:45] Sonja Strom: At that time, it seemed to me such a bill was actually unneccessary,
[9:46] Sonja Strom: because I thought the RA could always choose among itself to direct such a question to the ballot for the citizens to vote on.
[9:46] Sonja Strom: But in talking with everybody,
[9:46] Sonja Strom: it became clear there would need to be some structure in place
[9:46] Sonja Strom: in order for it to really work.
[9:47] Sonja Strom: If there were a structure, it would need to be defined in the laws of the CDS.
[9:47] Sonja Strom: The law I first came up with would have been very simple,
[9:47] Sonja Strom: trying to keep it as simple as possible.
[9:47] Sonja Strom: All it would do was say the RA could direct a Referendum question to the citizens.
[9:48] Sonja Strom: That was seen as too simple by a lot of people,
[9:48] Sonja Strom: and I included input from all 4 factions at that time.
[9:48] Sonja Strom: We arrived at this wording, which we voted on:
[9:48] Sonja Strom: "At its discretion, the Representative Assembly may place a referendum question on the next previously scheduled ballot with a simple majority vote. There shall not be more than one referendum per RA term. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[9:49] Sonja Strom: Then this bill received only the support of the DPU,
[9:49] Sonja Strom: and it failed to come into law.
[9:49] Sonja Strom: I would like to continue work on this issue,
[9:50] Sonja Strom: and ask for your understanding and assistance in an effort to create a Referendum system in the CDS.
[9:50] Sonja Strom: Personally, I would like to start by changing the wording of the bill I introduced previously, a year ago,
[9:50] Sonja Strom: by removing the sentance that says "There shall not be more than one referendum per RA term," as to me this seems like an unneccessary limitation.
[9:51] Sonja Strom: Thank you.
[9:51] Symo Kurka: Good
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks, Sonja!
[9:51] Symo Kurka: Anybody proposes any amandment/ different wording to Sonja's proposal?
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh* If I remember correctly,
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the reason we voted against it,
[9:52] Pip Torok: one point: I suggest there be some limit to the number of referenda ... otherwise certain terns will be swamped by Refs
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: was because we wished to have the whole electoral processes finished first
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we didn't even start... so...
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
[9:52] Sonja Strom: lol
[9:52] Pip Torok: i propose change from "one" to "two" to sonja's original wording
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I guess that objection would be dropped now
[9:53] Sonja Strom:
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with a 'limit', even if it's not 'a limit of one'
[9:53] Sonja Strom: Pip's idea might be what we choose.
[9:53] Pip Torok: it ewould concentrate peoples minds ...
[9:53] Sonja Strom: I would like to say one thing about that though
[9:54] Sonja Strom: With this bill, the only way a Referendum question would get on the ballot is if the RA voted to put it there.
[9:54] Sonja Strom: So if there were a lot of Referendum questions on one ballot, it would be because the RA said it wanted them to be there.
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, 'one' Referendum doesn't mean 'one question'
[9:55] Sonja Strom: Gwyn, right -
[9:55] Symo Kurka: So do we wish to proceed to voting??
[9:55] Pip Torok: on what motion?
[9:55] Sonja Strom: that is a point we might want to make really clear in the wording of the bill.
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sonja's amended by Pip's suggestion to 'two' referenda per term?
[9:56] Sonja Strom: My intention was always to only have any Referendum questions be on the ballot for the next general election.
[9:56] Symo Kurka: Ok then i propose Gwyn and Sonja come back to next RA with a shared wording
[9:56] Pip Torok: im happy to proceed on G's basis
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not me,
[9:56] Sonja Strom: Symo, let's just talk about this here.
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip's suggestion
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:56] Sonja Strom: I don't think there is a major issue to reach a compromise on.
[9:57] Sonja Strom: I just want the RA to talk about it.
[9:57] Pip Torok: well imo recourse to Referenda is a good idea
[9:57] Symo Kurka: Aaaah.. is there a vote proposal? What is your final Bill wording Sonja ?
[9:57] Pip Torok: do we agree?
[9:58] Sonja Strom: I can restate how I think the bill should read,
[9:58] Sonja Strom: and we can start with that.
[9:58] Symo Kurka: OK
[9:58] Symo Kurka: now or next RA?
[9:58] Sonja Strom: "At its discretion, the Representative Assembly may place a referendum question on the next previously scheduled ballot with a simple majority vote. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[9:58] Moon Adamant: hello everyone
[9:58] Sonja Strom: Why the next RA?
[9:58] Symo Kurka: Ok
[9:58] Sonja Strom: We are discussing this issue, or?
[9:58] Symo Kurka: did'nt understand
[9:59] Sonja Strom: OK, I have stated what bill I think we could vote on.
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so... is Pip's proposal to change "one" to "two" still on the floor?
[9:59] Sonja Strom: Does anyone want to make an amendment to this statement?
[9:59] Sonja Strom: Pip, would you like to propose that?
[10:00] Sonja Strom: As wording I mean.
[10:00] Pip Torok: yes i propose that the sentence of twicwe per term be incorportated
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: with Sonja's proposed wording,
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: how would that fit?
[10:00] Pip Torok: yes
[10:00] Symo Kurka: "At its discretion, the Representative Assembly may place a maximum of two referendum question per term on the next previously scheduled ballot with a simple majority vote. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ahhhh wait
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so that's two questions per referendum, but one referendum per term?
[10:01] Pip Torok: small drafting change ... question to questions
[10:01] Symo Kurka: No two ref
[10:01] Symo Kurka: Lol
[10:01] Pip Torok: two refs i meant ..
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "may place a maximum of two referendum question per term on the next previously scheduled ballot " ... since usually there is just one ballot per term...
[10:02] Symo Kurka: "At its discretion, the Representative Assembly may place a maximum of two referendum per term on the next previously scheduled ballot with a simple majority vote. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[10:02] Pip Torok: agree with g
[10:02] Sonja Strom: Pip, would you state how you would like the bill to read?
[10:03] Symo Kurka: Yes Pip sorry, i was just tryin to help
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head* I just want that it isn't ambigious, God knows how many ambiguous laws we already have...
[10:03] Pip Torok: yes At its discretion, the Representative Assembly
[10:04] Cindy Ecksol: ?
[10:04] Pip Torok: may place a maximum of two Referenda per term on the next previously
[10:04] Pip Torok: schduled ballot with a simple majority vote.
[10:04] Cindy Ecksol thinks we don't need both "At its discretion" and "with a simple majority vote." The latter will suffice
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is this what you mean, Pip: "At its discretion, the Representative Assembly may place a maximum of two referenda per term, with an unlimited number of questions each, with a simple majority vote. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[10:05] Sonja Strom agrees with Cindy
[10:05] Pip Torok: The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding,
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agees with Cindy too. It's redundant really, the RA is sovereign
[10:05] Symo Kurka: ....live cooperative writing ..
[10:05] Pip Torok: but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens.
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The Representative Assembly may place a maximum of two referenda per term, with an unlimited number of questions each. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[10:06] Symo Kurka: Thanks Gwyn sounds perfect
[10:06] Sonja Strom: Thanks Gwyn, and Cindy.
[10:06] Symo Kurka: Shall we move to vote?
[10:06] Symo Kurka: Approval of the Rewferendum bill as rewritten in last version
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's just that "at the next ballot" implies during the term elections, and doing two different referenda *at the same time* is confusing, if you can do multiple questions anyway
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well
[10:07] Sonja Strom: Good point Gwyn!
[10:07] Pip Torok: agree
[10:07] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd actually limit the number of questions
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. five at most or so
[10:07] Cindy Ecksol: yes, a referendum is generally ONE question
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well depends, Cindy
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: iRL I've often voted on two- and three-question referenda.
[10:07] Kedwyn Parmelee: why did you leave out the phrase about "simple majority" vote needed?
[10:08] Sonja Strom: In Switzerland sometimes there are more referendum questions on a ballot than all of the others.
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kedwyn, all decisions by the RA, by default, are by simple majority.
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not only in Switzerland, Sonja
[10:08] Kedwyn Parmelee: ah ok redundant
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes Kedwyn!)
[10:09] Symo Kurka: Gwyn please can we vote on your text?
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: let's see a scenario for multiple questions: e.g. we wish a new sim. The questions could be: 1) Do you want a new sim? 2) Should it be named 'Eureka'? 3) Should it be Greek-themed? 4) Should it be annexed to Locus Amoenus?
[10:09] Sonja Strom: When we are talking about two referendum questions,
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so multiple questions for the same theme do make sense.
[10:10] Sonja Strom: do we mean allowing for a separate vote outside of the next election,
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Sonja, thus my removal of 'the enxt ballot')
[10:10] Sonja Strom: or is it allowing not more than two questions for each election.
[10:10] Sonja Strom: ok
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The way Pip wrote it it could be either;
[10:10] Sonja Strom: I agree.
[10:11] Sonja Strom: It is difficult to make simple and clear.
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I suggested making it clear: two referenda (and thus not tied to the term elections) with multiple questions
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it is
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually...
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd like to suggest a slightly different wording!
[10:11] Sonja Strom: OK
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry to annoy you)
[10:11] Pip Torok: (lol)
[10:11] Sonja Strom: lol
[10:12] Sonja Strom: I just want the citizens to be able to vote on major issues effecting their community -
[10:12] Sonja Strom: to have a voice.
[10:12] Sonja Strom: How that is accomplished in exact wording is not something I am concerned about.
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The Representative Assembly may place a maximum of one referendum per term, on a specific theme or subject, with up to five questions, to be voted at the next previously scheduled ballot. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Here's the reason:
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - for technical reasons,
[10:13] Cindy Ecksol: ah, sonja! Be careful what you put in writing in front of the RA -- you may GET it!!!
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jon's system already provides for referendum voting
[10:13] Sonja Strom: LOL
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: during the regular elections.
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hehe Cindy)
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and - the questions should be limited to a theme,
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but not a single question
[10:13] Sonja Strom thinks about how she may have started a whole new bunch of conversations....
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn *slaps her forehead*
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it should also say: "that can be unambigously answered with 'aye' or 'nay'"
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Attempt #3....
[10:14] Pip Torok: agree
[10:14] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[10:14] Sonja Strom: Gwyn, I think by its nature a Referendum question would be a Yes/No question.
[10:14] Cindy Ecksol now understands why Symo included only this one item on today's agenda!!
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The Representative Assembly may place a maximum of one referendum per term, on a specific theme or subject, with up to five questions, that can be unambigously answered with 'aye' or 'nay', to be voted at the next previously scheduled ballot. The results of a referendum vote shall not be considered legally binding, but only advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens."
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sonja, possibly, but... better safe than sorry!
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Symo is wise.
[10:15] Symo Kurka: ?
[10:15] Sonja Strom thinks about how Cindy should have seen the discussions about this issue the last term she was in the RA too...
[10:15] Symo Kurka: me?
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (for just having one discussion)
[10:16] Symo Kurka: Are we finished with wording?
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn withdraws her previous suggestions and just places a motion to vote on the wording as under 'attempt #3'
[10:16] Sonja Strom: Sorry Gwyn, but that wording seems unnecessarily complex to me.
[10:16] Symo Kurka: Lol
[10:16] Sonja Strom: lol
[10:16] Kedwyn Parmelee: so back to only one referendum now?
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But hopefully unambiguous, Sonja
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: kedwyn — for technical reasons really — the voting machine can already deal with a referendum per term during the regular RAelections
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we don't know if we can change it to do multiple referenda per term.
[10:17] Sonja Strom: For one thing, to me a Referendum Question is one question --
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, I know... this is subverting law to code
[10:17] Pip Torok: yes .. but election-times are special cases, no?
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sonja, yes, but not for me
[10:17] Kedwyn Parmelee: well multiple questions probably covers issues anyway
[10:17] Sonja Strom: there could be multiple questions on one topic.
[10:18] Symo Kurka: SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU
[10:18] Symo Kurka raises hand
[10:18] Sonja Strom: ok Symo
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you wish, Sonja, you could place the explanation on a preamble, and make a simpler law, so long as everybody knows how to interpret it.
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry SymO!!
[10:18] Symo Kurka: I have to leave in five minutes and i'll ask Cindy to follow as deputy LRA
[10:18] Symo Kurka: but first i have to make a short announcment
[10:19] Symo Kurka: I am resigning from Simplicity Party and RA: next 29th March I will perform for the last time in RA.
[10:19] Symo Kurka: I announce this with wide anticipation to allow everybody here to organize in due time a soft transition.
[10:19] Symo Kurka: I made this choice for personal reasons so please do not ask why.
[10:19] Symo Kurka: I’ll be here the 29th to answer operational questions (if any) from new LRA and to cheer you all.
[10:19] Symo Kurka: Ok
[10:19] Symo Kurka: done
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Referendum Act - Preamble: A Referendum Question can be seen as a set of up to five questions, to be unambiguously answered 'aye' or 'nay', and posed to all citizens. aww
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:20] Symo Kurka: Now Cindy please follow this Honourable <assembly today ok?
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry to hear that, Symo
[10:20] Symo Kurka: Cheers next RA..
[10:20] Pip Torok: me too
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:20] Symo Kurka: I'll be here the 29th anyway
[10:20] Sonja Strom: Thanks for serving in the RA, Symo.
[10:21] Symo Kurka: Loggin off now and please do not forget to end the recorder
[10:21] Cindy Ecksol: ok....
[10:21] Cindy Ecksol: so back to the subject at hand....
[10:22] Cindy Ecksol: Where are we with the wording?
[10:22] Sonja Strom: Maybe we could each state what we would like it to be,
[10:22] Sonja Strom: or restate it.
[10:22] Cindy Ecksol: ok, sonja, go ahead!
[10:22] Sonja Strom: Then compare, contrast...
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn is typing a suggestion where the law is simpler, and the explanations go into a Preamble.
[10:23] Sonja Strom: see if we can arrive at a common approach.
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Referendum Act - Preamble: A Referendum Question can be seen as a set of up to five questions, to be unambiguously answered 'aye' or 'nay', and posed to all citizens. Each Referendum addresses a specific topic, subject, or theme, and is advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens. Thus the RA determines: "The Representative Assembly may place a maximum of one referendum per term, to be voted at the next previously scheduled ballot, which shall be not legally binding."
[10:23] Cindy Ecksol: ok, sonja, are you ready to accept this wording?
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that was proposal >#5
[10:24] Sonja Strom: I think that wording is brilliant.
[10:24] Sonja Strom: Thanks Gwyn!
[10:24] Cindy Ecksol: *whew*
[10:24] Pip Torok: and me!
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't... I would probably tweak it even further...
[10:24] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[10:24] Sonja Strom: We can do that...
[10:24] Cindy Ecksol: ok, gwyn, what would you like to change?
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh "Each Referendum Question" instead of just "Each Referendum", so to capture Sonja's concept that we're talking about "a Referendum Question" even if it has several questions
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I guess I'm just fighting with words really
[10:26] Sonja Strom: I agree with that.
[10:26] Cindy Ecksol: ok.
[10:26] Sonja Strom: I think it is good for it to be clear.
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is better English: " which shall be not legally binding" or "which shall not be legally binding"
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ?
[10:26] Pip Torok: the second imo
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Pip
[10:26] Cindy Ecksol nods
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, so I'd add that change too.
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: #6...
[10:27] Cindy Ecksol: ok, gwyn, can you please restate your proposal with the two changes?
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Referendum Act - Preamble: A Referendum Question can be seen as a set of up to five questions, to be unambiguously answered 'aye' or 'nay', and posed to all citizens. Each Referendum Question addresses a specific topic, subject, or theme, and is advisory to the government as to the wishes of the citizens. Thus the RA determines: "The Representative Assembly may place a maximum of one referendum per term, to be voted at the next previously scheduled ballot, which shall not be legally binding."
[10:27] Cindy Ecksol: thank you. do we have a second?
[10:27] Sonja Strom: Second
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay
[10:28] Sonja Strom: Thanks Gwyn!
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[10:28] Cindy Ecksol: any further discussion on the merits?
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn *covers her mouth*
[10:28] Cindy Ecksol: no, gwyn, no need to cover your mouth
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[10:28] Cindy Ecksol: if you have something to say (pro or con) please do
[10:28] Sonja Strom: *g*
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh ... actually, no, I think I'm *finally* happy
[10:28] Cindy Ecksol: or forever hold your peace
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* I'll hold my peace
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: ok, I move to close the discussion
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: seconded...
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: all in favor of closing discussion?
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye.
[10:29] Pip Torok: aye
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[10:29] Sonja Strom: aye
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: discussion is closed.
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:30] Cindy Ecksol: I call for a vote on the proposal. Gwyn's #6
[10:30] Cindy Ecksol: all in favor?
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[10:30] Pip Torok: aye
[10:30] Sonja Strom: aye
[10:30] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[10:30] Cindy Ecksol: motion carries.
[10:30] Cindy Ecksol: congratulatons sonja!
[10:30] Sonja Strom:
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: very good congrats Sonja
[10:30] Pip Torok: add my congrats too!
[10:30] Sonja Strom raises her arms in victory!!
[10:30] Cindy Ecksol: all right, next on the agenda...
[10:31] Sonja Strom: Thanks everybody!!
[10:31] Cindy Ecksol: open time for proposals
[10:31] Sonja Strom: And especially to Gwyneth for helping so much with the wording.
[10:31] Delia Lake: one more victory for virtual democracy
[10:31] Sonja Strom:
[10:31] Cindy Ecksol: symo idd not leave me a list of who wished to speak
[10:31] Cindy Ecksol: is there anyone?
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mind you, since this bill doesn't really change any powers of the RA, but is more like a self-regulation thing (e.g. "ask your citizens what they wish") it doesn't require a Constitutional Change, but I'm sure the SC will review that
[10:31] Solomon Mosely: raises hand
[10:32] Cindy Ecksol: ok, solomon, please
[10:32] Cindy Ecksol: you have the floor
[10:32] Solomon Mosely: the symo thing seemed to pop up and disapear quickly there, what does this mean exactly? do you take over as lra after the 29th?
[10:33] Cindy Ecksol: ummm....no, not as far as I know....
[10:33] Cindy Ecksol: I am just the "assistant LRA" to fill in when Symo is not available
[10:33] Pip Torok: its been sprung on us all, sol
[10:33] Solomon Mosely: then i think that should be dealt with now, so we can debate at length over the next couople weeks
[10:33] Cindy Ecksol: if Symo resigns, Simplicity will have to decide how to deal with it.
[10:33] Solomon Mosely: is there legistation for this?
[10:33] Cindy Ecksol: but I must have been out of SL if he said anything about the 29th, so you'll have to fill me in...
[10:34] Cindy Ecksol: what did I miss?
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly: probably nominating someone else for Symo's vacant seat.
[10:34] Solomon Mosely: i thought he did
[10:34] Solomon Mosely: i thought he said that was his last day as ra, didnt he?
[10:34] Solomon Mosely: lra*
[10:34] Cindy Ecksol: Solomon, there are procedures for filling an empty seat. we will follow them.
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Symo will be unavailable until the 29th but he'll be back to help out the new LRA if there are some pending issues)
[10:35] Pip Torok: does anyone know whether S will be out of SL altogether?
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and yes, Sol, I took it as a resignation from LRA, RA, and SP.
[10:35] Cindy Ecksol: all right, that's a matter for Simplicity to deal with....so we will read the transcript, have a meeting, and decide who will fill Symo's seat
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[10:35] Cindy Ecksol: and also who will be LRA in Symo's absence
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh you unless the RA votes otherwise.
[10:36] Sonja Strom: Right
[10:36] Solomon Mosely: right, but this just isnt dealt with an empty ra seat, is it?
[10:36] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, yes, Sol, now it's a bit easier to deal with.
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a SP seat left vacant, so the SP will replace it — or not.
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If not, we'll have partial elections
[10:36] Cindy Ecksol: technically the person with the second highest vote total in Simplicity would be LRA.
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Cindy
[10:37] Solomon Mosely: right, would it just fall to the next sp member to recieve the highest votes in the last election?
[10:37] Solomon Mosely: lol, k
[10:37] Cindy Ecksol: but of course Simplicity could change who fills those seats....
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Sol, exactly
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[10:37] Cindy Ecksol: I did not stand in the election so technically I got ZERO votes...
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
[10:37] Cindy Ecksol: but if the second-highest vote-getter says "no" to LRA, that would leave me
[10:38] Cindy Ecksol: or whomever Simplicity appoints to the empty seat, right Gwyn?
[10:38] Sonja Strom: That is my understanding, yes.
[10:38] Cindy Ecksol: but there ARE procedures, so we will deal with it appropriatelly outside of RA.
[10:38] Cindy Ecksol: Thank you solomon
[10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2282 (so technically Soro would be the next LRA)
[10:38] Cindy Ecksol: anyone else who wishes to speak?
[10:38] Cindy Ecksol: Arria?
[10:39] Pip Torok: only on a non-RA matter ...
[10:39] Cindy Ecksol: ok, pip, you have the floor
[10:40] Pip Torok: right ... i had a birthday paty yesterday and have decided to continue it tonight at Arpar del Pip ... all present are invited ...
[10:40] Arria Perreault: yes
[10:40] Sonja Strom:
[10:40] Cindy Ecksol: thank you pip.
[10:40] Arria Perreault: I am ready
[10:40] Cindy Ecksol: arria?
[10:40] Cindy Ecksol: you have the floor
[10:40] Pip Torok: pluas symo if hes listening!
[10:40] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:40] Sonja Strom wishes Pip a happy birthday, on behalf of the Representative Assembly and the CDS!
[10:40] Pip Torok: thank you!
[10:41] Arria Perreault: I was thinking that the GMP was a priority of this term
[10:41] Cindy Ecksol: ok, folks, arria has th efloor
[10:41] Arria Perreault: but I did not hear from any workgroup, proposals and other ways to give a constructive input
[10:42] Cindy Ecksol: sorry arria....I think we lost the first part of that before the "but"
[10:42] Sonja Strom: [10:41] Arria Perreault: I was thinking that the GMP was a priority of this term
[10:42] Arria Perreault: I wI would like to know where we are, who is currently working on the GMP ?
[10:42] Cindy Ecksol: ah, ok
[10:42] Moon Adamant: i can answer that
[10:42] Cindy Ecksol: Arria, at the last RA meeting I reported on behalf of Gwyn an dI
[10:42] Cindy Ecksol: (just a sec moon)
[10:43] Cindy Ecksol: and we opened a discussion on the GMP process out on the forums
[10:43] Arria Perreault: and I would like to know how I can be involved in this precess and if I have a chance to integrate my current and pending proposal for the Monastery
[10:43] Cindy Ecksol: I have been disappointed that so few people have engaged in that discussion. would like to have much more input before constructing a bill.
[10:43] Arria Perreault: I did
[10:43] Arria Perreault: and Timo did
[10:44] Cindy Ecksol: yes, you and Timo did -- but I would like MORE involvement
[10:44] Cindy Ecksol: much broader.
[10:44] Arria Perreault: and I was interested to participate to the GMP process, I think
[10:44] Cindy Ecksol: now...the development of GMP is a WHOLE OTHER PROCESS
[10:44] Cindy Ecksol: i.e. the CONTENT of the GMP -- Gwyn and I did not mean our discussion to be about that.
[10:44] Sonja Strom: I've been thinking about it - the apparent complexity of it overwhelms me a little bit.
[10:44] Arria Perreault: at least the interested people could be invited to a meeting or to a workgroup
[10:45] Moon Adamant raiases her hand
[10:45] Cindy Ecksol: but I think Moon can speak for the New Guild. Moon can you fill us in on what's going on with the GMP content?
[10:45] Sonja Strom: I haven't wanted to say much until I felt I understood it better.
[10:45] Moon Adamant: yes,thanks
[10:45] Moon Adamant: first of all, and in reply to you Cindy
[10:45] Moon Adamant: i do agree, there are two dimensions about the GMp plan
[10:46] Moon Adamant: one is the technical dimension - what the GMP is - and the other is the political dimension - the validity and enforcement of the GMP
[10:46] Cindy Ecksol nods in agreement
[10:46] Moon Adamant: as for the technical dimension, i am currently sketching the basis for public discussion
[10:46] Moon Adamant: these basis comprise: cluster themes, orography, densities, and transportation
[10:47] Moon Adamant: as well as a compilation of CDS sim data to this point
[10:47] Moon Adamant: they will be ready for publication soon, i hope
[10:47] Cindy Ecksol: excellent!
[10:47] Cindy Ecksol: and I assume that you have (or will have) some kind of workgroup on this Moon?
[10:47] Moon Adamant: and i will be most glad to hold then the public exhibit and discussion of detail points
[10:47] Solomon Mosely: wasnt all that covered already in the maps ive seen on the forums?
[10:48] Moon Adamant: will in the future
[10:48] Moon Adamant: no, Solomon, that was the older version of the masterplan
[10:48] Moon Adamant: which didn't respond to some concerns that have since been expressed by some groups
[10:48] Solomon Mosely: i see, it was never finally agreed upon then, ok
[10:48] Cindy Ecksol: oh, no, solomon -- the current GMP is in force.
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* indeed....
[10:49] Cindy Ecksol: but what Gwyn and i are interested in is a process for UPDATING the GMP on a regular basis
[10:49] Moon Adamant: such as the creation of a higher moutain, possible inclusion of a Al- Andaluz cluster, inclusion of a Monastery sim
[10:49] Arria Perreault: can someone give me the transcript of what I have misssed
[10:49] Cindy Ecksol: yes....all the technical details, the CONTENT of the GMP
[10:49] Moon Adamant: the GMP is a document that needs frequent revisions, you see
[10:50] Cindy Ecksol: the discussion on the foru that I started is about how we want the GMP to be APPLIED to the community on an ongoing basis
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and constant overseeing...
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, exactly.
[10:50] Cindy Ecksol: that's the "political" aspect
[10:50] Moon Adamant: indeed, it's important
[10:51] Cindy Ecksol: Arria? does that address your question?
[10:52] Arria Perreault: I would like to know if and how I can be involved? (Arria or any interested CDS citizen)
[10:52] Moon Adamant: well, Arria
[10:52] Moon Adamant: as i said
[10:52] Arria Perreault: I think that this technical work has a part of content
[10:52] Moon Adamant: in the technical debate, let me finish the sketch first of all, so we can discuss over something
[10:53] Moon Adamant: yes, it has - the minimal content for our territory to be consistent
[10:53] Arria Perreault: but talking when soemthing is already on the table is a constraint
[10:53] Moon Adamant: such as mandatory roads, etc
[10:53] Moon Adamant: no, not at all
[10:53] Cindy Ecksol: and for the political aspect, I encourage you (and everyone else) to continue to participate in the forum threads that I started.
[10:53] Arria Perreault: and there are an infinitiy of ways to do it
[10:54] Cindy Ecksol: I'll note that one of them (the role of the Guild) is completely empty right now....and definitely needs some focus!
[10:54] Moon Adamant: not exactly, since the sims we already have constrain the number of possibilities
[10:54] Arria Perreault: I want to participate to the technical work
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So mmh that will be a role of the Guild...
[10:54] Cindy Ecksol: yes, I think so.
[10:54] Moon Adamant: i will try to have the sketches ready this week for publication and will convene the workgroup next week
[10:54] Arria Perreault: it seems that a work is already in preparation
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least, it has been so far...
[10:54] Cindy Ecksol: Moon, I assume that when you're ready to start a workgroup you will announce to the Guild?
[10:55] Moon Adamant: yes, of course
[10:55] Solomon Mosely: im sorry, one last question....
[10:55] Moon Adamant: the thing atm is that the GMP on its current sketch has 52 sims
[10:55] Cindy Ecksol: ok, so Arria and everyone else -- keep an eye on the forum for moon's announcement
[10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:55] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:55] Moon Adamant: and if a base is not defined, it may happen that the discussion is held endlessly
[10:56] Cindy Ecksol: by the way, I'll note that Arria's confusion about this is in part because there is no one in either the exec or RA responsible for "moving the GMP along"
[10:56] Cindy Ecksol: in other words, right now it has no real champion in government.
[10:56] Arria Perreault: yes, but the risk is that people will ask so many changes that you wll to do it again
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, good point, Cindy.
[10:56] Cindy Ecksol: no political process.
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn totally agrees.
[10:56] Cindy Ecksol: this is what the forum discussion is about, so if you are interested, please follow and join in.
[10:56] Arria Perreault: I did
[10:57] Cindy Ecksol: it IS a complex issue (as Gwyn and I discovered when we started to look at it)
[10:57] Cindy Ecksol: but I think we have broken it down in a way that keeps us focused so that we can come to some conclusions about what political processes we might need and how best to put them in place
[10:57] Cindy Ecksol: ok, thanks arria and moon
[10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh* yes... mostly because the question of the role of the Guild as a NGO — should a document created by a NGO have 'the force of law'? It's a serious precedent.
[10:57] Cindy Ecksol: anyone else?
[10:58] Solomon Mosely: raises hand
[10:58] Cindy Ecksol: solomon? you have the floor
[10:58] Sonja Strom: Thank you for this work, Moon
[10:58] Solomon Mosely: are we reviewing it now for regular maintenance or for a specific propsed expansion at this time?
[10:58] Moon Adamant: thank you all, i have to go and prepare the Guild meeting
[10:58] Cindy Ecksol: ah, good question solomon!
[10:58] Moon Adamant: ok
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good question.... I don't know if we have an answer
[10:58] Moon Adamant: both
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (see you in a bit, Moon)
[10:59] Cindy Ecksol: well....yes, I think we do
[10:59] Moon Adamant: we are introducing Locus Amoenus data
[10:59] Solomon Mosely: then why is the gmp being reviewed if we have no goal with it at the moment?
[10:59] Solomon Mosely: ok
[10:59] Moon Adamant: and we are preparing new ways to expand to address the desire of several groups of people
[10:59] Cindy Ecksol: because it is a GENERAL document, must be always up to date
[10:59] Moon Adamant: now i must go
[10:59] Cindy Ecksol: and I need to go too...
[11:00] Cindy Ecksol: but before I do, Solomn, let me say that we certainly should be looking at a new sim right now
[11:00] Cindy Ecksol: as Rose commented on the forum recently, we are out of space to sell
[11:00] Cindy Ecksol: so if you hae ideas.....bring them forward, please!
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so the main reason seems to be: the New Guild is reviewing the GMP because a) it has to be kept up to date; b) citizens wish changes to it, and the NG is the appropriate place to discuss and incroporate those changes?
[11:00] Pip Torok torn between NGO and party! (a trap of hos own making)
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:00] Cindy Ecksol: for now, yes Gwyn.
[11:01] Cindy Ecksol: adding a new sim is a separate process
[11:01] Cindy Ecksol: and we SHOULD be doing that.
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes, it is!
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[11:01] Cindy Ecksol: hopefully somone will propose for discussion at the next RA meeting and we can go from there.
[11:01] Solomon Mosely: ok, i just missed what the current goal was exactly
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:01] Cindy Ecksol: two separate issues, solomon.
[11:01] Solomon Mosely: gotcha
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
[11:02] Cindy Ecksol: we can work on long-term and short term simultaneously
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hopefully!)
[11:02] Cindy Ecksol: ok, if no other issues, i'd like to thank everyone for thier time
[11:02] Cindy Ecksol: move to adjourn
[11:02] Pip Torok: seconded
[11:02] Cindy Ecksol: all in favor?
[11:02] Sonja Strom: aye
[11:02] Pip Torok: aye
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least for short-term, the RA and the Chancellor have two reasonably detailed procedures: NL 8-2 and 8-4 (even if they have slight inconsistencies); so we know how to proceed
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and aye
[11:02] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[11:02] Cindy Ecksol: thanks!