General Master Plan 2009

[Timo Gufler]

Thank you very much, Moon! I will be flattered if my suggestion is included in the GMP. It's very likely changes are needed, so no problems for the NFS-East.

There is a question about the northern part of the plan I would like to ask. The Nea Hora cluster is located north from the Roman cluster and my understanding is that the Roman must be quite complete before creating any NH sims. Are everyone happy with this or should we be able to expand both NH and Roman clusters in parallel and change the northern layout? Maybe someone has a good answer or suggestion to this.

And about Al Andalus... In my opinion it can be included in the plan. If the political decision is to reject the inclusion then GMP can be modified later and AA replaced with something else. I am sure Moon and others have a lot of great ideas what to place there.

[Moon Adamant]

Hi Timo

About the Northern part, Symo's GMP included an harbour at the northern roman sims that would link through water to the nea hora sims... this regardless of any bridges that could be thrown in, for example a bridge that would be the continuation of the Decumanum would be a natural thing. I think it is possible to build a strip northwards from either CN or LA that starts the nea hora cluster. These sims will be easier to plan and build since the terrain will be flattish or rolling... though we have to think about what is the proportion of landmass/islands in the NH cluster, in my pov.

[Timo Gufler]

Good that Symo has planned it so carefully. The plan sounds interesting.

[Rose Springvale]

Could we have a link to Symo's version so we can visualize this? I was under the understanding that Nea Hora would go east, and Al Andalus would be to the north of colonia nova, a continuous land mass. Apparently changes were made that were not presented.

[Sonja Strom]

Here is one link that might be helpful: http://masterplan.slcds.info
The photos and maps on this page can be enlarged by clicking on them. However, there I do not see any reference to Nea Hora or Al Andalus.

Thank you to Timo for his work on a way to revise the GMP. Thank you also to Moon for her flexibility and willingness to work together with others in the community on this project.

I would really like to have some kind of mountains in the Neufreistadt area. They would help it to be a scenic alpine town, making it appear even more attractive than it already is. I think it would be really great to be able to look down onto the town and its cloudiness from a point above (without having to hang in the air, flying SL-style). I would also really like for us to have at least one better ski run, starting from a point considerably higher than what we now have at the top of Alpine Meadow.

If the CDS is to have mountainous terrain, one reason why I think it would be best to locate it adjacent to NFS is because NFS is already so high. Even one or two sims going up from there could make for a relatively high mountain. Another reason is to provide a viable explanation for where NFS gets its water, and why it has a large ravine (crossed by the long bridge going out of town to the west) and a valley (on the south side of the town walls). For example, something I really like about Alpine Meadow is how natural it looks and feels because its topography makes sense.

I used to know of several sims in SL that had attractive mountains. Most of them also had a fair number of buildings – normally at the base, but also in some cases on the mountainsides, and they looked really good. Unfortunately, I just went to try to get some pictures of them, and now they seem to be gone. Maybe they were victims of the OpenSpace sim meltdown. Rose mentioned the Alpine Executive Center, which I have not visited lately but think is well-made.

For those who are interested, there is also a poll and discussion in this forum about having mountains above Neufreistadt, to be found here:
http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1854

[Moon Adamant]

Timo, as promised, here follow some sketches for today's discussion at the WG Meeting. I apologize for the low-quality of the drawings, but this has been a very busy week.
I did a few corrections in the orography drawing, because it's easier, i think, to refer some sims as slopes (seeing that they refer to the water level) than hills - even if they do not actually touch water at a beach and are instead cliffs at say, 40 m high. I am also joining a proposal for densities, referring to my previous drawing and adapting it to yours.

I hope your ideas are well expressed by these, if not, i'll do the necessary corrections after tonight's meeting.

Thanks!

[Jamie Palisades]

First, thanks very much to Moon for her work here, as well as to Symo for his original efforts on which this builds.
We are well known as an unusually scenic place. It's a brand, and a good one. We should strive to keep that.
Having good planners doing careful work, followed by citizen exposure and comment, is key to our past and future success.
Yay team!

Now then. I have three comments to throw into the current thread (well, lots more, depending on how you count) :

1. I agree generally with Timo's take above, FWIW. Nice thinking.

2. I like much of the orography of Moon's helpful draft plan, but it embeds some assumptions that seem untested. Two are these:
a. if we join with Al Andalus, why would we strand them across a pelagic (watery-islandy) moat? Seems odd to me, even unfriendly at first glance.
b. Are we still assuming that the second rejected alternative for A.M. (Nea Hora) will happen? What's the evidence of market demand? Flatly, we sell Alpine better than Roman. Have for a long time. I'd like to get Arria's 2008 Monastery concept, or something like it, running first, before we cut off other options to keep the door to a theoretical NH open.
Those two might be related, even -- if we weren't stubbornly imagining a Nea Hora, AA might fit nicely along or close to CN's north edge, as I mentioned on 8 February in the comments linked below. Was this considered and discarded?

3. I have a bunch of other questions too :D I sent them to the Guild in February:

>> 1. We have discussed adding one or two NGO-focused sims. They might be open space or full sims. Assuming that we can work out the economics: (a) Do we have a community consensus that the first one should be placed to resolve the hillside west of AM and the scenic gap south of LA? (b) Where should a second scenic low density sim go, to best enhance the region?
>> 2. We have discussed joining in some way with the Al-Andalus estate. That may or may not include a physical move. if it does, we need some questions answered. (a) Where on the CDS map should the two main AA sims be joined? (I have heard many say that North of CN/LA works best, and agree, but this requires someone to review it.) (b) Could someone also inquire whether AA's voids are moveable by AA without difficulty to AA, or would need to stay where they are on the AA map (this would affect the CN connection) .. and (c) whether some or all of AA's low-cost voids could possibly be accepted by us, keeping the very low price they now pay, along with the two main sims, so that we can do #1 above without purchasing full price Linden voids?
>> 3. I believe that the next full sim we should add is an Alpine sim to the east of NFS, and continuing the NFS theme of hilltop fachwerk (which we can sell!) running down to valley. (a) Do you agree? (b) If not, where should be the next place for a full sim for residential expansion? (c) If you do agree that NFS East is a good place, then, (c) what should the topography look like? Specifically, I have eight detailed concerns. They are listed here, in the land planning forum where they belong.
>> 4. I have approved the Guild's plan for the SE City corner of Colonia Nova. What else should we do to revitalize CN? (Arria and Symo both have made some interesting postings with ideas about that. Generally I agree with them that we need to do more, both in buildings and programs, to support and enhance the Roman colony theme area.)

It's possible that Moon's draft considers and contains answers to some part of Q1 and Q2. Not sure yet. Q3 about NFS East also is a short term concern with acute potential.

My over-arching concern here, as someone responsible for operations, is that we do a better job of identifying moves and options for the next 1-4 sims. The hypothetical next 30 SHOULD receive some attention, but not ALL our thought. The look to a future map is good. The work is of value, and appreciated. Still, let's make sure that we move this conservations from dreams of being one of those massive tycooneries, to the practical near future, fairly soon.

Regards JP

[Timo Gufler]

Moon, thanks for the charts and adjustments. At least for me they seem fine.

[Moon Adamant]

First, thanks very much to Moon for her work here, as well as to Symo for his original efforts on which this builds.
We are well known as an unusually scenic place. It's a brand, and a good one. We should strive to keep that.
Having good planners doing careful work, followed by citizen exposure and comment, is key to our past and future success.
Yay team!

Now then. I have three comments to throw into the current thread (well, lots more, depending on how you count) :

1. I agree generally with Timo's take above, FWIW. Nice thinking.

2. I like much of the orography of Moon's helpful draft plan, but it embeds some assumptions that seem untested. Two are these:
a. if we join with Al Andalus, why would we strand them across a pelagic (watery-islandy) moat? Seems odd to me, even unfriendly at first glance.

As have been mentioned, this is an inheritance from Symo's last sketch. I worked over it and have now abandoned my work for Timo's work which is more economical for the ends in view. Nevertheless, there is a discussion WG, where we can and will debate this question, tonight, in 1 hour and 15 minutes.

b. Are we still assuming that the second rejected alternative for A.M. (Nea Hora) will happen? What's the evidence of market demand? Flatly, we sell Alpine better than Roman. Have for a long time. I'd like to get Arria's 2008 Monastery concept, or something like it, running first, before we cut off other options to keep the door to a theoretical NH open.
Those two might be related, even -- if we weren't stubbornly imagining a Nea Hora, AA might fit nicely along or close to CN's north edge, as I mentioned on 8 February in the comments linked below. Was this considered and discarded?

When the competition Alpine Meadow/ Nea Hora was effected, and Alpine Meadows won, there was a resolution to keep Nea Hora in waiting as a valid theme. This plan, and actually the plan in force do create a Nea Hora cluster. It makes sense that it is adjoining the roman sim. Nevertheless, this is something that can be discussed as well tonight.

3. I have a bunch of other questions too I sent them to the Guild in February:

>> 1. We have discussed adding one or two NGO-focused sims. They might be open space or full sims. Assuming that we can work out the economics: (a) Do we have a community consensus that the first one should be placed to resolve the hillside west of AM and the scenic gap south of LA? (b) Where should a second scenic low density sim go, to best enhance the region?
>> 2. We have discussed joining in some way with the Al-Andalus estate. That may or may not include a physical move. if it does, we need some questions answered. (a) Where on the CDS map should the two main AA sims be joined? (I have heard many say that North of CN/LA works best, and agree, but this requires someone to review it.) (b) Could someone also inquire whether AA's voids are moveable by AA without difficulty to AA, or would need to stay where they are on the AA map (this would affect the CN connection) .. and (c) whether some or all of AA's low-cost voids could possibly be accepted by us, keeping the very low price they now pay, along with the two main sims, so that we can do #1 above without purchasing full price Linden voids?
>> 3. I believe that the next full sim we should add is an Alpine sim to the east of NFS, and continuing the NFS theme of hilltop fachwerk (which we can sell!) running down to valley. (a) Do you agree? (b) If not, where should be the next place for a full sim for residential expansion? (c) If you do agree that NFS East is a good place, then, (c) what should the topography look like? Specifically, I have eight detailed concerns. They are listed here, in the land planning forum where they belong.
>> 4. I have approved the Guild's plan for the SE City corner of Colonia Nova. What else should we do to revitalize CN? (Arria and Symo both have made some interesting postings with ideas about that. Generally I agree with them that we need to do more, both in buildings and programs, to support and enhance the Roman colony theme area.)

It's possible that Moon's draft considers and contains answers to some part of Q1 and Q2. Not sure yet. Q3 about NFS East also is a short term concern with acute potential.

In reply to your questions again:
1. the decision to hold NGO-run sims, be them full or homesteads, is a political question that does not concern the Guild - it can be solved by the Legislative power, proposed by the Executive power, or, since last RA meeting, publicly referended. We will do our work as usual when such proposals appear to make sure they comply with the plans in force. As for low densities sims, according to Timo's plan and common sense they should appear at the top of the mountain range and at the pelagic sims. Nevertheless. we must not confuse low density with the question homestead/full sim: a full sim can have a large multiplier and allow a low density while being economically viable, such as happens in AM.

2. Again, most of the questions about Al-Andaluz are political questions that are not answerable by the Guild. The location of Al-Andaluz will be discussed tonight, as mentioned before.

3. Certainly that expanding the city of NFS is a priority. According to Timo's proposal and my addings to it, and to the last Guild meeting consensus, the NFS-East should be a sim whose highest point is the schloss hill as a solitary figure. Also priorities are filling the visual gaps in the LA North-South strip, which sims are alpine. A possible suggestion is also to start the middle europe cluster by building NFS-South.

4. The Guild is available to act in the physical aspects of CN that would need a correction.

[Moon Adamant]

Sorry, meeting is starting now... confused by the hour change

[Sonja Strom]

At the Master Plan Workgroup meeting today (26 March, 09) it was decided that the Al Andalus sims would not be included in the General Master Plan at this time.

[Moon Adamant]

At the Master Plan Workgroup meeting today (26 March, 09) it was decided that the Al Andalus sims would not be included in the General Master Plan at this time.

Yes, Sonja, thanks!

For reference, everyone, yesterday's transcript can be read here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2385