GMP Workgroup Meeting 26th March 2009 - Transcript

[Moon Adamant]

[13:20] Moon Adamant: ok, let start
[13:20] Jamie Palisades: Samantha?
[13:20] Moon Adamant: welcome everyone
[13:20] Jamie Palisades: I ight send you a message about group permissions on the Schloss
[13:20] Moon Adamant: this meeting will be recorded from this point on
[13:20] Jamie Palisades: we are trying to imrpiove our practices there. I will be quiet now, sorry
[13:21] Pyrii Akula gave you CTT Video Player.
[13:21] Moon Adamant: later the transcript will be published in the Guild forums
[13:21] Moon Adamant: ok
[13:21] Samantha Fuller: Jamie you are chanchlor now i diden't folow the last election
[13:21] Moon Adamant: as agreed from last meeting
[13:22] Moon Adamant: the first sketch of the plan
[13:22] Moon Adamant: didn't actually meet the desires of the people who want a mountain range in the territory
[13:22] Moon Adamant: plus, it was considered that 52 sims was a non-economical plan
[13:23] Moon Adamant: it was decided then that we would try to sketch a plan inm which the mountain range would develop west from NFS
[13:23] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[13:23] Moon Adamant: Timo has published an excellent plan in the forums, which i worked upon a little and is today exposed here
[13:24] Moon Adamant: yes, Cindy?
[13:24] Timo Gufler: thanks, Moon
[13:24] Cindy Ecksol: moon, before we dive into this plan or that plan, I had some thoughts on "planning" in general and GMP planning in particular
[13:24] Cindy Ecksol: may I?
[13:24] Moon Adamant: of course
[13:24] Cindy Ecksol: thank you.
[13:24] Moon Adamant listens
[13:24] Cindy Ecksol: here's what I was thinking.
[13:25] Cindy Ecksol: the plan you you presented at guild was wonderfully creative....and completely different from the existing GMP
[13:25] Cindy Ecksol: as, I might add, was Timo's
[13:25] Cindy Ecksol: both had some new and exciting elements, and certainly responded in some ways to the interests of the community
[13:25] Cindy Ecksol: my concern is that we already have an existing GMP.
[13:26] Cindy Ecksol: and it seems to me that a GMP is something that is intended to be approached incrementally.....
[13:26] Cindy Ecksol: and in a similar process to the one that created the current GMP, i.e. by getting community input FIRST on desires/.need for change, and then working to amend the current plan
[13:27] Cindy Ecksol: so I guess what I'm saying is that, once again, I'm concerned about process, and about perhaps using the very effective process that you and Symo developed for the original GMP
[13:27] Cindy Ecksol: rather than trying to restart altogether.
[13:27] Cindy Ecksol: finished, thank you.
[13:27] Moon Adamant: well
[13:27] Moon Adamant: this plan is an expansion of the plan in force
[13:27] Moon Adamant: when Symo created the first plan
[13:27] Sonja Strom raises hand
[13:28] Moon Adamant: he left blank spaces for future clusters, if you remind... he called them Newton, da Vinci, etc...
[13:28] Moon Adamant: just a sec Sonja
[13:28] Moon Adamant: when we completed LA
[13:29] Moon Adamant: there was the question of placing the LA data into the GMP - recording it
[13:29] Moon Adamant: it is done, at my lect
[13:29] Moon Adamant: left*
[13:29] Moon Adamant: but it was then thought that we should try and listen to certain groups of citizens who desired several new features
[13:30] Moon Adamant: like the mountain range
[13:30] Moon Adamant: at the same time, the question of political aggregation with Al-Andaluz was raised
[13:30] Moon Adamant: this sketch we are now trying to discuss is an upgrade to Symo's plan
[13:31] Moon Adamant: in what concerns the appearance of new desires by the population
[13:31] Moon Adamant: dunno... does this answer your issues?
[13:31] Cindy Ecksol: well.....no
[13:32] Cindy Ecksol: my point is that I think we need to start by looking ALL TOGETHER at the old plan, listing the new issues, and then working ORGANICALLY to see how we can amend that old plan
[13:32] Cindy Ecksol: what you have presented is beautiful -- but it is really a whole new "from scratch" proposal.
[13:32] Cindy Ecksol: or at least it feels like that to me.
[13:32] Moon Adamant: no, it isn't
[13:32] Moon Adamant: the core is there
[13:32] Cindy Ecksol: there are features in there that no one had considered before....
[13:33] Moon Adamant: the neahora-roman-alpine transition
[13:33] Cindy Ecksol: that we MAY like....but I think we need to talk about them as a community
[13:33] Moon Adamant: well, we are here for that
[13:33] Cindy Ecksol: and some things you have presented as "fixed" are much too specific
[13:33] Cindy Ecksol: for instance, the position of AA...
[13:33] Cindy Ecksol: we have hardly started to talk about AA and how it might connect, and there is currently no real proposal from the Chancellor on the table
[13:34] Moon Adamant: i don't know that
[13:34] Cindy Ecksol: a GMP should be just that: GENERAL, not specific to particular proposals
[13:34] Cindy Ecksol: I DO know that....
[13:34] Cindy Ecksol: if there were a proposal, RA would have heard about it.
[13:34] Cindy Ecksol: and we have not.
[13:34] Moon Adamant: well, apparently there's a lot of things i don't know about in what concerns Al-Andaluz
[13:34] Moon Adamant: but to answer that point
[13:34] Cindy Ecksol: well..
[13:34] Cindy Ecksol: yes, exactly!
[13:34] Moon Adamant: if you look to my left corner
[13:34] Moon Adamant: you will see a 3D map
[13:34] Cindy Ecksol: that's why our GMP should not address it at this point.
[13:35] Solomon Mosely: it looks lie the old one with a new mountain range on it, is that about right?
[13:35] Cindy Ecksol: where AA fits is a subject that should be discussed once a proposal is on the table
[13:35] Moon Adamant: which is what Symo left me to work upon when he became LRA, feeling that he couldn't perform the two functions at the same time
[13:36] Moon Adamant: now, the location of AA is inherited from that, and i have chosen
[13:36] Moon Adamant: to give it a degree of freedom by placing it under a detail plan
[13:36] Moon Adamant: but
[13:36] Moon Adamant: i understand what you mean
[13:36] Moon Adamant: you mean that hmmm
[13:37] Moon Adamant: at the moment we should not concern ourselves with getting AA in the plan
[13:37] Moon Adamant: correct?
[13:37] Cindy Ecksol nods
[13:37] Cindy Ecksol: yes....nor th emonastery for that matter
[13:37] Cindy Ecksol: there are many POTENTIAL locations for both of those projects
[13:37] Cindy Ecksol: but until we have firm proposals (actually until they are implemented) they should not be part of the GMP discussion
[13:38] Moon Adamant: ok
[13:38] Moon Adamant: though hmmm
[13:38] Cindy Ecksol: except, perhaps, to say "Well, the monastery MIGHT go....here, here, or here...."
[13:38] Cindy Ecksol: and so on....
[13:38] Moon Adamant: i would like then to know
[13:38] Jamie Palisades: Moon, again, my apologies that I must leaver. It might, however, be proper for the Guild or committee, someday, to discuss whether *some* kinds of clusters in the abstract should be separated by water, and *other* kinds should not. I believe tha some of our expansion proposals will come faster than this plan Good day
[13:38] Cindy Ecksol: so we need to make SPACE for projects like that....or NH, or others....
[13:38] Jamie Palisades bows graciously
[13:38] Moon Adamant: bye Jamie
[13:38] Sonja Strom: bye Jamie
[13:38] Cindy Ecksol: but we should not RESERVE specific space.
[13:38] Timo Gufler: bye Jamie!
[13:38] Cindy Ecksol: yes, I agree with Jamie....
[13:39] Cindy Ecksol: that is a more generic approach.
[13:39] Cindy Ecksol: makes more sense for a General MP
[13:39] Moon Adamant: well, the creation of detail plans in a way signals that
[13:39] Moon Adamant: signals: here must be a political decision
[13:39] Moon Adamant: sinc ethe Guild cannot make the political decisions
[13:39] Cindy Ecksol: well...yes, true!
[13:40] Moon Adamant: so in a way we're crying: decide something HERE!
[13:40] Cindy Ecksol: and perhaps that is why we should not "name" sims in the GMP....but just name "clusters" and "types"
[13:40] Cindy Ecksol: so "here be achripelago sims" is fine....
[13:40] Cindy Ecksol: but "here be AA's water sim" is probably not....
[13:40] Moon Adamant: that's the state of the GMP at this moment
[13:40] Cindy Ecksol: that keeps us out of the political discussion
[13:41] Moon Adamant: the GMP is, and should always be
[13:41] Moon Adamant: a minimal approach to territory organization
[13:41] Moon Adamant: now, what is happening is
[13:41] Cindy Ecksol nods in agreement
[13:41] Moon Adamant: that for one side, or so i thought, and Symo thought, and Timo also thought
[13:42] Moon Adamant: that the AA process would be more hmmm defined
[13:42] Timo Gufler nods
[13:42] Moon Adamant: otoh, there has been a political votation re: the Monastery sim
[13:42] Cindy Ecksol: well, we would all like to THINK that....but that is not how it is workign out
[13:42] Cindy Ecksol: well....yes.
[13:42] Samantha Fuller: We do not seem to be expanding at a rate that makes planing for more than one or two sims at a time critical or even practical, if we need a mountian sim it should be a continuation of neufreistdat to the E
[13:42] Cindy Ecksol: but it was then withdrawn and we have not yet seen a new proposal...
[13:42] Cindy Ecksol: although Arria has told me that she is working on one
[13:43] Solomon Mosely: ii havent heard any new talk of new cds expansion currently, it seems like the aa merge is the most pressing expansion plan now
[13:43] Cindy Ecksol nods in agreement with Sam
[13:43] Moon Adamant: no, Sam, we can't - slope too inclined there - that was the conclusion of last meeting
[13:43] Solomon Mosely: should that be the next move discussed and on the drafting table?
[13:43] Timo Gufler: I think the current problem with expansion is that demand and supply of different clusters is not in balance
[13:43] Moon Adamant: just one second
[13:44] Moon Adamant: atm, we need to expand
[13:44] Cindy Ecksol: Sol, I think that to discuss a SPECIFIC sim expansion is not hte point here...
[13:44] Samantha Fuller: ? their is only 1 space to the E
[13:44] Moon Adamant: there are no free lots in the CDS
[13:44] Moon Adamant: yes, Sam, and i need to reach water there
[13:44] Solomon Mosely: so are thosse aa sims on the proposal "new" aa sims?
[13:44] Moon Adamant organizes her thoughts
[13:45] Sonja Strom: Solomon, the AA sims exist.
[13:45] Sonja Strom: There is some discussion of them possibly joining the CDS.
[13:45] Sonja Strom raises hand
[13:45] Solomon Mosely: right, and that would be a political merge, not a physical one?
[13:45] Moon Adamant: Sonja, do go on
[13:46] Sonja Strom: thank you,
[13:46] Sonja Strom: I have one small thing to say about what Cindy brought up,
[13:46] Moon Adamant: i'll answer you in a bit, Sol
[13:46] Solomon Mosely: k, ty
[13:46] Sonja Strom: which is that I did not find Symo's process for the last version of the GMP better than this current process.
[13:46] Sonja Strom: Another thing I want to ask is,
[13:46] Sonja Strom: Is Symo's GMP posted somewhere? Rose asked this question in the Forum (at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... =15#p13080) and I have not been able to find it.
[13:47] Sonja Strom: Thank you.
[13:47] Moon Adamant: ok
[13:47] Moon Adamant: first, my answer to Sol:
[13:47] Moon Adamant: Sol, quite frankly, and atm, i don't know anymore
[13:47] Moon Adamant:
[13:47] Moon Adamant: Sonja, Symo's plan is posted
[13:47] Moon Adamant: i am sure of that
[13:48] Moon Adamant: but i am terrible at finding stuff in the forums
[13:48] Moon Adamant: let me check one thing
[13:48] Sonja Strom: I have searched through, going back pretty far...
[13:48] Samantha Fuller: I dont understand the logic of the need to reach the water if expanding tthe mountian to the east we currently have a end of the world cliff and wont be able to change that regardles
[13:49] Sonja Strom: Samantha, that is an important conversation, but I think it would come later in this meeting.
[13:49] Moon Adamant: Sam, the problem is not the eastern shore
[13:49] Moon Adamant: the problem is that we have a backwater between AM and NFS-East
[13:50] Moon Adamant: as that purple marker is showing on the map to my left
[13:50] Moon Adamant: ok Sonja
[13:50] Moon Adamant: i was checking my uh
[13:50] Moon Adamant: online folder where i put things i want to post in the forums
[13:50] Sonja Strom: I did find references to http://masterplan.slcds.info
[13:51] Moon Adamant: i found the survey there
[13:51] Moon Adamant: let me look in my machine now, because i am sure i have all the drawings
[13:51] Sonja Strom: But that information apparently does not reflect Symo's plan.
[13:52] Moon Adamant: the most i can do is re-post the current masterplan
[13:52] Cindy Ecksol: that would be helpful
[13:53] Cindy Ecksol: Moon, it just occurred to me that perhaps what is making me so uncertain about your proposal is that I do not understand how you progressed from the current GMP to your proposal
[13:53] Solomon Mosely: getting back to what i think cindy's comment was, is a new sim south of la the next sim for expansion?
[13:53] Moon Adamant: oh, it was easy
[13:53] Moon Adamant: i didn't
[13:53] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[13:54] Cindy Ecksol: then I rest my case:
[13:54] Moon Adamant: i inherited Symo's new plan, that 3D map in the corner
[13:54] Cindy Ecksol: unless we start with the curent plan and progress, we are on the wrong track...
[13:54] Samantha Fuller: I have to leave for a while perhaps i can come back in an hour
[13:54] Cindy Ecksol: we should not be jumping to a whole new plan every time we get together to update the existing plan
[13:54] Timo Gufler: bye Sam
[13:54] Moon Adamant: well
[13:55] Moon Adamant: the main difference between the CURRENT GMP
[13:55] Moon Adamant: and this NEW one
[13:55] Moon Adamant: are:
[13:55] Moon Adamant: inclusion of AA
[13:55] Cindy Ecksol: we must look at where we are, look at new needs and desires....and THEN update the plan
[13:55] Moon Adamant: inclusion of mountain range
[13:55] Moon Adamant: and also importantly
[13:55] Cindy Ecksol: incremental and organic, not discontinuous
[13:55] Moon Adamant: in the CURRENT plan
[13:56] Moon Adamant: the clusters are always separated by watery voids
[13:56] Moon Adamant: this NEW plan reflects already the LL's change in pricing and therefore is more compact
[13:57] Moon Adamant: but if you look at both
[13:57] Moon Adamant: and i have the current one very much present in my mind
[13:57] Sonja Strom: Solomon, the next sim to be added is a decision for the RA to make.
[13:57] Moon Adamant: you understand the progression
[13:57] Moon Adamant: thus i am offering to repost it
[13:58] Moon Adamant: and Cindy
[13:58] Moon Adamant: i totally agree
[13:58] Sonja Strom: Thank you for reposting it Moon.
[13:58] Moon Adamant: in fact
[13:58] Solomon Mosely: of course, but it seems to be the next one if heard the most about since it continues the hill side and fixes the view from la
[13:58] Moon Adamant: ah, Sol
[13:58] Moon Adamant: jamie has posted asking that question
[13:58] Solomon Mosely: and that hill is in all the plans
[13:58] Moon Adamant: this is what i replied
[13:58] Moon Adamant: 3. Certainly that expanding the city of NFS is a priority. According to Timo's proposal and my addings to it, and to the last Guild meeting consensus, the NFS-East should be a sim whose highest point is the schloss hill as a solitary figure. Also priorities are filling the visual gaps in the LA North-South strip, which sims are alpine. A possible suggestion is also to start the middle europe cluster by building NFS-South.
[13:59] Moon Adamant: but in any case
[13:59] Moon Adamant: the Guild needs political decisions
[13:59] Moon Adamant: as cindy was saying
[13:59] Moon Adamant: very correctly
[14:00] Moon Adamant: atm, there is a sim plan ready to be implemented - Monastery
[14:00] Moon Adamant: at the same time, if you look at drawing #3
[14:00] Solomon Mosely: well, does it make sense to start at the bottom of the hill and move up while we discuss the new nfs sim?
[14:00] Timo Gufler: hmm, I think the monastery plan doesn't fit into the new GMP revision
[14:00] Cindy Ecksol: Sol, we really cannot discuss any new SPECIFIC sim
[14:00] Moon Adamant: you will see the expansion possibilities for all clusters
[14:01] Cindy Ecksol: our plan here is to create a general plan into which any sim that is proposed will have to fit in some way
[14:01] Timo Gufler: at least topography must be modified a bit
[14:01] Moon Adamant: possibly Timo
[14:01] Moon Adamant: but the matter NOW is the political decision
[14:01] Cindy Ecksol: RA will decide which new sims look good....and use the GMP to guild placement
[14:02] Timo Gufler: right
[14:02] Moon Adamant: to change the subject slightly
[14:02] Moon Adamant: otherwise we won't move on
[14:02] Moon Adamant: i would like to comment on the advantages of Timo's plan
[14:02] Moon Adamant:
[14:03] Moon Adamant: it is a rather economic plan - 42 sims (counting 3 AA sims)
[14:03] Moon Adamant: which offers expansion routes to all clusters
[14:04] Moon Adamant: while keeping the NH-RM-ALP-ME alignment that Symo had defined
[14:04] Moon Adamant: and also meets the desires of the mountain group
[14:05] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[14:05] Timo Gufler: yes, my only objective was to modify the southern part of the plan to include more alpine and german sims and get the mountains near NFS
[14:05] Moon Adamant: well, you achieved plenty more than that
[14:05] Moon Adamant: yes, Cindy?
[14:05] Timo Gufler:
[14:06] Cindy Ecksol: I am still not sure I undrstand how we got from the curent plan to this plan.
[14:06] Cindy Ecksol: could you possibly step us through the evolution?
[14:06] Moon Adamant: hmmm
[14:06] Moon Adamant: ok, bear with me for a few minutes
[14:06] Moon Adamant: i'll upload Symo's drawings
[14:07] Moon Adamant: i am so daft sometimes...
[14:08] Cindy Ecksol: no....it's just that you have been living with this process and we have not
[14:08] Moon Adamant: oh, hi Rain!
[14:08] Cindy Ecksol: so you have assumed that we understand how the evolution went....but we don't even know your assumptions about "needs" and "wants"
[14:08] Sonja Strom: don't set it on top of her, lol
[14:08] Rain Ninetails: hi !
[14:09] Rain Ninetails: eep
[14:09] Moon Adamant: ok, behind you Cindy
[14:09] Sonja Strom:
[14:09] Cindy Ecksol: ah, yes, that's the plan I know, love and understand
[14:10] Moon Adamant: i had totally forgotten i had made the GMP exhibition myself .D~
[14:10] Moon Adamant: aha
[14:10] Moon Adamant: and you can't find the GMP
[14:10] Moon Adamant: because it was posted as a GDocs ))
[14:10] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[14:10] Sonja Strom: ok
[14:11] Moon Adamant: but in any case
[14:11] Moon Adamant: you have here
[14:11] Moon Adamant: on Map 03
[14:11] Moon Adamant: the main concept
[14:11] Moon Adamant: a central core
[14:11] Moon Adamant: roman-alpine-middle europe
[14:12] Moon Adamant: surrounded by connection clusters
[14:12] Moon Adamant: that could be voids, either land or water
[14:12] Moon Adamant: and the new clusters would organize after a transition band
[14:13] Moon Adamant: in the Map 04
[14:13] Moon Adamant: we see that Symo intended that the transition band would be watery
[14:13] Moon Adamant: now, water
[14:13] Moon Adamant: in BOTH plans
[14:13] Moon Adamant: doesn't mean a sim full of water
[14:14] Moon Adamant: it means a sim which is watery, but which is also habitable
[14:14] Moon Adamant: i remember that when talking about that
[14:14] Moon Adamant: he suggested skycities or underwater cities
[14:14] Moon Adamant: and i was always just thinking islands
[14:14] Cindy Ecksol: yes, could make sense...
[14:15] Cindy Ecksol: certainly opens the door to other themes without worrying so much about "transition"
[14:15] Moon Adamant: so you see that the core is kept to the new plan
[14:15] Cindy Ecksol: ok...wait....let's look over that way....
[14:15] Moon Adamant: what is lost is the 'envelope' of all clusters
[14:16] Cindy Ecksol: so, moon.....
[14:16] Cindy Ecksol: othis layout to the left (with the reds, purples and pinks
[14:16] Moon Adamant: densities
[14:16] Cindy Ecksol: yes...
[14:17] Cindy Ecksol: can you explain what al, pl, rm....etc are?
[14:17] Moon Adamant: oh
[14:17] Moon Adamant: they're the clusters
[14:17] Moon Adamant: AL: alpine
[14:17] Moon Adamant: RM: Roman
[14:18] Moon Adamant: NH: Nea Hora
[14:18] Moon Adamant: AA: Al Andaluz
[14:18] Moon Adamant: ME: Midle eutope
[14:18] Moon Adamant: oh, stupid me
[14:18] Cindy Ecksol: and PL?
[14:18] Moon Adamant: i repeated a map
[14:18] Sonja Strom: I don't see what you are looking at.
[14:19] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[14:19] Moon Adamant: look at the first map on teh corner
[14:19] Cindy Ecksol: ah, much easier to see...
[14:19] Sonja Strom: Densities?
[14:19] Moon Adamant: i am sorry guys, i am very tired today
[14:19] Cindy Ecksol: so what is PL?
[14:19] Moon Adamant: Pelagic
[14:19] Moon Adamant: it's a watery band
[14:19] Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm
[14:19] Moon Adamant: that allows navigation
[14:19] Moon Adamant: and which, to my mind
[14:19] Moon Adamant: still has some islands )
[14:19] Cindy Ecksol: ah, now I understand a little better.
[14:20] Sonja Strom: I see a map that says Densities, but it does not have that lettering, at least not that I see...
[14:20] Moon Adamant: but i know Symo was still thinking about skycities, etc ))
[14:20] Cindy Ecksol: I think I could be comfortable with this as a starting point for discussion if we completely removed AA from the map
[14:20] Sonja Strom: It says M1-M3
[14:20] Cindy Ecksol: it is the one thing that stands out as too specific
[14:20] Sonja Strom: AM5, AM4
[14:20] Moon Adamant: no wait lol
[14:20] Moon Adamant: Sonja
[14:20] Moon Adamant: behind me, the NEW plan
[14:20] Sonja Strom: oh, the new, one, ok
[14:20] Moon Adamant: behind Cindy, the CURRENT plan
[14:21] Sonja Strom: with you now
[14:21] Moon Adamant: ah, btw Timo
[14:21] Moon Adamant: i also marked the river
[14:21] Timo Gufler: really?
[14:21] Moon Adamant: because it is a water way from west to east
[14:22] Solomon Mosely: yea, i was wondering abot that
[14:22] Solomon Mosely: not on the border tho
[14:22] Moon Adamant: from the pelagic band and whatever goes there on the west
[14:22] Timo Gufler: is it the river flowing through the bridge of the CN?
[14:22] Moon Adamant: to whatever happens in the east
[14:22] Moon Adamant: yes
[14:22] Timo Gufler: ok
[14:22] Timo Gufler: btw, it's too shallow for my boat
[14:23] Moon Adamant: eheheh talk to Sudane
[14:23] Timo Gufler: ok
[14:23] Sonja Strom: wb Samantha
[14:24] Moon Adamant: wb Sam
[14:24] Timo Gufler: what I have been pondering is that the plan doesn't make any difference between NFS altitudes and the mountain ones
[14:24] Timo Gufler: both have the same color
[14:24] Moon Adamant: yes
[14:24] Moon Adamant: but i haven't had yet time to calculate the slopes
[14:24] Timo Gufler: should there be some kind of hinting that there is a mountain?
[14:25] Moon Adamant: yes, there will be
[14:25] Timo Gufler: like there is for the river?
[14:25] Timo Gufler: great
[14:25] Moon Adamant: but i have to find out first how tall it is
[14:25] Moon Adamant: and as said, busy week
[14:25] Moon Adamant: and next one as well
[14:26] Moon Adamant: it's possible that i can only have that info in a fortnight
[14:26] Cindy Ecksol nods
[14:26] Cindy Ecksol: no giant hurry....
[14:26] Timo Gufler understands
[14:26] Timo Gufler: right
[14:27] Moon Adamant: i'd say at first glance something between 250-300 m
[14:27] Cindy Ecksol: high enough for you, sonja?
[14:27] Sonja Strom: I think so.
[14:27] Cindy Ecksol grins
[14:27] Sonja Strom:
[14:28] Timo Gufler:
[14:28] Moon Adamant: ok guys
[14:28] Moon Adamant: we're going in 1h30 of meeting
[14:28] Samantha Fuller: Dose the GMA currently imagine moving the Alpine cluster near AL-Anduluz and if so can the sims be rotated 90 deg
[14:29] Moon Adamant: so i would like to bring this to a close soon
[14:29] Sonja Strom: well, really just a little over an hour since we started -- but it's ok
[14:29] Moon Adamant: Sam, i don't think you can rotate sims like that
[14:29] Cindy Ecksol: I do not think we have to resolve everything today
[14:29] Sonja Strom: right
[14:29] Timo Gufler: but if you are tired Moon we can stop earlier
[14:29] Cindy Ecksol: this is a good start on the process for sure!
[14:29] Moon Adamant: ok, so what can we conclude?
[14:29] Cindy Ecksol: hmmmmm
[14:30] Moon Adamant: 1. we need to re-publish teh current plan for reference
[14:30] Samantha Fuller: i dident think so either but that was what it appeared to be in the plan i seen on the web
[14:30] Moon Adamant: i'll do that tomorrow
[14:30] Cindy Ecksol: sam, I think that plan was rotated so that north was not "up"
[14:30] Sonja Strom: Moon, the plan you have put out on your displays here is available at http://masterplan.slcds.info
[14:30] Cindy Ecksol: for convenience....but it WAS confusing
[14:30] Moon Adamant: oh great
[14:30] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[14:31] Sonja Strom: To me it does sound a bit different than how you were describing it in the thread for the 2009 changes...
[14:31] Moon Adamant: it should be available through the portal
[14:31] Cindy Ecksol nods empatically in agreement with sonja
[14:31] Sonja Strom: for example, Nea Hora and AA are not mentioned in it at all.
[14:32] Moon Adamant: ah, look at this new placard
[14:32] Samantha Fuller: i thought it might be but i dont see Al- Andulz nearby on the world map so dose the plan involve moveing one cluster
[14:32] Moon Adamant: Symo previewed
[14:32] Moon Adamant: new clusters
[14:33] Cindy Ecksol: yes, sam, AA or CDS ....or maybe both...would move
[14:33] Moon Adamant: two which were 'concrete' - MittelEurope and Mediterranean (Nea Hora)
[14:33] Sonja Strom: Samantha, if AA chooses to join the CDS and the CDS chooses to have AA join, and if they moved, then that would be the case.
[14:33] Moon Adamant: and 3 more which were 'abstract' - Newton, etc
[14:34] Solomon Mosely: cindy, did you get any answers to your concerns about aa placement?
[14:34] Sonja Strom: oh, by "Mediterranean" he meant Nea Hora? ok
[14:34] Moon Adamant: yes
[14:34] Moon Adamant: you see that nea Hora is not classical greece
[14:34] Cindy Ecksol: no. and I would still prefer not to see AA hanging out there....it is much too specific and we do not know enough about i tright now to say where it should go
[14:34] Moon Adamant: but something more like Mykonos or santorini
[14:34] Moon Adamant: or Rhodes
[14:34] Moon Adamant: ok
[14:35] Moon Adamant: ok Cindy
[14:35] Moon Adamant: so is that a conclusion?
[14:35] Cindy Ecksol: for one thing I DO know that it is much more than 3 sims....
[14:35] Moon Adamant: let's not concern ourselves with AA for teh moment?
[14:35] Moon Adamant: yes, i know they're 6
[14:35] Solomon Mosely: and it is on the political table now, should we focus on ts place in the gmp?
[14:35] Cindy Ecksol: so I would suggest that we remove it altogether from the GMP and then let RA figure out how to evaluate any forthcoming proposal
[14:35] Moon Adamant: but 4 are voids
[14:35] Timo Gufler: I agree with Solomon
[14:35] Cindy Ecksol: let's just give RA a good GENERAL plan to work with
[14:36] Moon Adamant: ok, who agrees with Cindy says Aye!
[14:36] Cindy Ecksol: they use this plan as advice and guidance.
[14:36] Solomon Mosely: that will come up shortly as political talks procceed
[14:36] Sonja Strom: It would be possible for the plan to just say "sea/islands, flat land, hill, valley, mountain" and so on...
[14:37] Sonja Strom: that might be too general, but I thought I would mention it.
[14:37] Timo Gufler: I think the themes should be there too...
[14:37] Sonja Strom: that does make sense to me.
[14:37] Samantha Fuller: Aye the AA people have proved to be mostly talk before, so it could easly fall through
[14:37] Moon Adamant: do vote please on Cindy's proposal?
[14:37] Cindy Ecksol: OR it could be something completely different than what we are envisioning here....
[14:38] Sonja Strom: How general does Cindy want the GMP to be?
[14:38] Cindy Ecksol: and it could fit nicely into a more generic plan if we give RA one to work with
[14:38] Sonja Strom: That is not clear to me.
[14:38] Timo Gufler: Nay to keep the things simple
[14:38] Moon Adamant: no no no
[14:38] Cindy Ecksol: I am happy with everything here as "generic" except AA
[14:38] Solomon Mosely: i just imagine the ra turning to guild for where it fits in the gmp
[14:38] Moon Adamant: guys, sorry
[14:38] Moon Adamant: let's get organized
[14:38] Moon Adamant: Cindy made a proposal
[14:38] Sonja Strom: ok Cindy, thanks.
[14:38] Cindy Ecksol: so my proposal is remove the thre AA blocks from our GMP
[14:38] Moon Adamant: to not consider AA placement in the new GMP
[14:38] Cindy Ecksol: at least for new
[14:38] Cindy Ecksol: now
[14:38] Moon Adamant: exactly
[14:39] Sonja Strom: I am in favor of that, yes.
[14:39] Moon Adamant: now, anyone seconds?
[14:39] Sonja Strom: second
[14:39] Moon Adamant: ok
[14:39] Moon Adamant: all agreeing, say Aye
[14:39] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[14:39] Sonja Strom: aye
[14:39] Solomon Mosely: aye
[14:39] Timo Gufler: nay
[14:39] Samantha Fuller: Aye
[14:39] Moon Adamant: Rain?
[14:39] Rain Ninetails: no vote atm
[14:39] Moon Adamant: your vote please?
[14:40] Moon Adamant: ok
[14:40] Moon Adamant: and i abstain
[14:40] Moon Adamant: the Ayes carry it
[14:40] Moon Adamant: ok
[14:40] Moon Adamant: Timo
[14:40] Timo Gufler: yes
[14:40] Moon Adamant: i will, asap, redraw your plan with better quality than these hurried things
[14:40] Sonja Strom: One possibility with AA is, *if* it does join together with the CDS, the two would not need to be joined geographically for some time.
[14:40] Moon Adamant: and remove AA from it
[14:41] Sonja Strom: like CN and NFS were not for a long time.
[14:41] Moon Adamant: surely Sonja
[14:41] Timo Gufler: hmmm yes
[14:41] Moon Adamant: but there is a factor of bonding that was very visible when AM was built
[14:41] Sonja Strom: That's true, right.
[14:41] Moon Adamant: in any case, AA placement has stopped being a priority
[14:42] Timo Gufler: ok
[14:42] Cindy Ecksol: at least it is not a priority for the GMP....
[14:42] Timo Gufler: are we going to replace it with something?
[14:42] Sonja Strom: correct Cindy, lol
[14:42] Samantha Fuller: moving fees will put a damper on that priorys
[14:42] Cindy Ecksol: no, Timo....at least not yet.....
[14:43] Sonja Strom: US$50/sim
[14:43] Timo Gufler: so are we waiting for RA decision?
[14:43] Sonja Strom: Yes.
[14:43] Timo Gufler: before filling that place with something
[14:43] Timo Gufler: so this gets complex
[14:43] Sonja Strom: It is a decision that would be reached by the people of AA, and the CDS Representative Assembly.
[14:44] Cindy Ecksol: could just fill that corner with something "generic" like "Mediteranean" or somesuch....if we think we need that.
[14:44] Solomon Mosely: the modern themes maybe
[14:44] Cindy Ecksol: or just "Theme 6"
[14:44] Sonja Strom: "Sailing Sims"
[14:44] Cindy Ecksol: sure!
[14:44] Sonja Strom:
[14:44] Cindy Ecksol: could be whatever....
[14:44] Cindy Ecksol: it's a nice spot for themes that can't easily butt up against what we have...
[14:44] Timo Gufler: but I hope we can continue with other topics until RA is ready with their decision
[14:45] Moon Adamant: ok
[14:45] Moon Adamant: then what about this
[14:45] Sonja Strom: Sorry Timo, I did not understand your last comment.
[14:45] Moon Adamant: we'll preview the existence of sims there
[14:45] Sonja Strom: other topics?
[14:45] Moon Adamant: but leave them as generic
[14:45] Moon Adamant: for a while
[14:45] Timo Gufler: I hope we can process the GMP even if we are waiting for the decision of RA about the AA
[14:45] Sonja Strom: Do you mean to grow with our existing themes?
[14:46] Moon Adamant: it's just important that we preview placements in case we want to checkerboard reservations
[14:46] Sonja Strom: Naturally we will want to do that.
[14:46] Cindy Ecksol: oh, we can work on GMP in parallel -- this revision is not dependent on RA nor is RA decision dependent on new GMP.
[14:46] Sonja Strom: Taking AA out of the Master Plan will simplify the GMP I think.
[14:46] Cindy Ecksol:
[14:47] Cindy Ecksol: of course!
[14:47] Timo Gufler: Sonja, no, just GMP planning
[14:47] Sonja Strom: Yes, we can have a GMP work without AA being included in it.
[14:47] Timo Gufler: good
[14:48] Sonja Strom: And, true, Cindy's point is a good one.
[14:48] Sonja Strom: The GMP is only a reference for the Representative Assembly in its decision-making.
[14:48] Moon Adamant: exactly
[14:48] Timo Gufler: right
[14:48] Sonja Strom: The GMP and the RA are a bit different.
[14:49] Samantha Fuller: It cost to much to reserve checkerboard space sims indefinitly besides the grid is shrinking overall it wery might well be that neabors will disappear
[14:49] Sonja Strom: I think that's possible Samantha --
[14:49] Timo Gufler: and new ones appear
[14:49] Solomon Mosely: yes timo
[14:49] Sonja Strom: a couple of them have gone away or moved already.
[14:50] Sonja Strom: Yes, but that is true wherever anybody is on the grid.
[14:50] Moon Adamant: yes
[14:50] Moon Adamant: i wouldn't worry about moving now
[14:50] Sonja Strom: If we moved all of the CDS sims, before long they would be surrounded with neighbors again unless we reserved all the spaces.
[14:50] Samantha Fuller: I think we sill see a expantion of strongly theamed areas like ours and a thining of single sims
[14:51] Moon Adamant: for the moment, we have tons of space around us
[14:51] Moon Adamant: and as we grow one sim at the time
[14:51] Sonja Strom: right - more than we need atm.
[14:51] Moon Adamant: no sense in moving now
[14:51] Moon Adamant: let's grow what we can, get dividends
[14:51] Moon Adamant: and then we can afford paying when we need to move
[14:51] Timo Gufler: maybe we can even pay move of one of our neighbours
[14:51] Sonja Strom: I really do think that later we can talk with other sim owners too, if we need to in order to grow.
[14:52] Sonja Strom: Right --
[14:52] Sonja Strom: or work with them so they are adjacent, and we have a border crossing,
[14:52] Moon Adamant: ok guys
[14:52] Sonja Strom: and tax those who enter the CDS with their goods, lol
[14:52] Moon Adamant: ehehehe
[14:52] Timo Gufler: lol
[14:53] Moon Adamant: guys, motion to adjourn
[14:53] Timo Gufler: aye
[14:53] Sonja Strom: second
[14:53] Solomon Mosely: aye
[14:53] Moon Adamant: i'll be taking silence as assent on this ...
[14:53] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[14:53] Rain Ninetails:
[14:54] Sonja Strom: aye
[14:54] Moon Adamant: ok
[14:54] Moon Adamant: thank you all
[14:54] Moon Adamant: sorry for the confusions
[14:54] Sonja Strom: Thank you...
[14:54] Timo Gufler: Thanks Moon for the meeting
[14:54] Cindy Ecksol: thank you moon
[14:55] Moon Adamant: afk while i transcript