RA Transcript: 17 May 2009

[Cindy Ecksol]

[9:13] Soro Dagostino: Ok everybody.
[9:13] Soro Dagostino: Its time -- we have a quorum
[9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yay
[9:13] Sonja Strom: yay
[9:13] Soro Dagostino: The Agenda is posted.
[9:14] Cindy Ecksol: and also in the ball underneath the table
[9:14] Soro Dagostino: Jamie -- you said you posted the proposed bills -- I cannot find them
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn would love to see them too
[9:14] Jamie Palisades: hm hang on
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks!
[9:14] Jamie Palisades: (sim and city planning thread)
[9:15] Jamie Palisades: but will post the URLs here
[9:15] Soro Dagostino: Not the Exec?
[9:15] Soro Dagostino: REcorder is working?
[9:16] Cindy Ecksol: recorder is running
[9:16] Jamie Palisades: monastery here -> http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 395#p13241
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: Will every one please consent to recording?
[9:16] Pip Torok: do we need to touch the recorder?
[9:16] Jamie Palisades: Al Andalus here -> http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 394#p13242
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: I think you do.
[9:16] Pip Torok: I consent
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: I consent
[9:16] Sonja Strom: I consent
[9:17] Brian Livingston: I consent
[9:17] Jamie Palisades: and I consent (I never could myself find one of those boxes that works well , Soro, but Gwyn may know of a source)
[9:17] Cindy Ecksol: consent
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn consents and smiles
[9:17] Soro Dagostino: I tried to buy one -- nada.
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh gosh
[9:17] Pip Torok: where is the recorder?
[9:17] Cindy Ecksol: I have the code for this one, keep meaning to find the time to make it better
[9:18] Cindy Ecksol: it's the black box under the table Pip
[9:18] Soro Dagostino: Ok, you all have the Agenda?
[9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[9:18] Pip Torok: Thanks Cindy
[9:19] Soro Dagostino: Are there any changes to the Agenda?
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might grumble a bit, Mr LRA...
[9:19] Soro Dagostino: I note that Jamie has posted the bills for AA and Monastery.
[9:19] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn?
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: MMh do we have the transcript from last session?
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I was looking at the forums for it...
[9:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And well, I'm pretty sure that on point III we would do discussion AND approval.
[9:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: e.g. approving Jamie's proposed bills
[9:21] Soro Dagostino: I do. I made a log from Chat. But its in a file on my laptop -- and I don't know how to give it to you all.
[9:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see...
[9:22] Cindy Ecksol: I promised to help Soro with that after this meeting
[9:22] Soro Dagostino: At the time I prepared the Agenda -- I didn't have the bills.
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we did plan to approve them anyway, even without them But ok. Since the two bills, for all purposes, are the approval of the discussions on point III,
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: Motion to amend the Agenda to include an action item -- approval of bills?
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with the agenda, assuming we *will* discuss and vote Jamie's bills
[9:23] Cindy Ecksol: motion
[9:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I second
[9:23] Pip Torok: seconded
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: Thank you.
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: Any discussion?
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[9:23] Pip Torok: aye
[9:24] Sonja Strom: aye
[9:24] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[9:24] Jamie Palisades: (afk a sec - teapot)
[9:24] Soro Dagostino: Opposed?
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ooops
[9:24] Sonja Strom: lol
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, the aye was for "in favour" of curse
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *course even
[9:24] Soro Dagostino: Brian?
[9:24] Sonja Strom often has what she says fall into a different place than intended
[9:25] Soro Dagostino: Motion carried.
[9:25] Cindy Ecksol loves the unexpected meanings
[9:25] Sonja Strom: lol
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles
[9:26] Soro Dagostino: Who would like to speak to the motions?
[9:26] Soro Dagostino: RA members and guest?
[9:26] Cindy Ecksol: you mean the agenda items, Soro?
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Slight question, we *will* discuss them a bit in III 1. b. and III 2. b., right?
[9:26] Soro Dagostino: Yes Cindy
[9:27] Soro Dagostino: Yes Gwyn
[9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, well, I'll talk about it then
[9:27] Cindy Ecksol: ok...sorry, I misunderstood -- you're just looking for a list of interested parties right now
[9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[9:27] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[9:27] Cindy Ecksol: jamie, would that include you?
[9:28] Soro Dagostino: He is pouring tea.
[9:28] Cindy Ecksol: ok -- probably should assume that he's on you rlist then
[9:28] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[9:29] Soro Dagostino: Ok, last Admin item on Agenda -- Next meeting on 5/31. Any objections?
[9:29] Jamie Palisades smiles.
[9:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I should be around, so no objections
[9:30] Sonja Strom: I do not have an objection, but will not be able to be there,
[9:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aww
[9:30] Sonja Strom: so request a 7-day vote for anything that is voted on.
[9:30] Soro Dagostino: Ok, that is the day.
[9:31] Soro Dagostino: Lets move to Chancellor's comments or report.
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please!
[9:31] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn?
[9:32] Soro Dagostino: Are you going to give the report?
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Me??? lol no
[9:32] Jamie Palisades: Thank you. Better Q & A this month, I think More interested in answering any questions you have, than the usual blather SO if Gwyn has questions, let's go with them
[9:32] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[9:32] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn?
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh... my only questions will be on III 1 b) and 2 b)
[9:32] Cindy Ecksol smiles and waits.
[9:33] Jamie Palisades: Most of what I know that's new, with one exception, will come up under later agenda items here, also.
[9:33] Soro Dagostino: Cindy?
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: however, if I have the opportunity, a rumour has reached my ears that Port Spinoza was interested in a similar arrangement as we now have drafted for AA....
[9:33] Cindy Ecksol: just waiting for you to move on, Soro
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If there is anything we can hear about it, I'd love to!
[9:33] Jamie Palisades: Right then. Port Spinoza, and SLBA.
[9:33] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[9:33] Jamie Palisades: Briefly.
[9:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[9:34] Jamie Palisades: You will recall we talked last mtg about SL Bar Association.
[9:34] Jamie Palisades: We've apporachd them; they are weighing options' we are in the running.
[9:34] Jamie Palisades: I might add that one issue for them is taking free space form an RL law firm -- sort of a politics issue.
[9:34] Jamie Palisades: *from
[9:34] Jamie Palisades: so, when we hear more, I will have more to report
[9:35] Soro Dagostino: Thank you.
[9:35] Jamie Palisades: May or may not happen. Did you have any further impression on that one, Soro?
[9:35] Soro Dagostino: The Bar Board has to decide.
[9:36] Jamie Palisades: OK<> Port Spinoza
[9:36] Soro Dagostino: Rose did sent a letter.
[9:36] Soro Dagostino: To the Bar board
[9:36] Soro Dagostino: To the Port?
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
[9:37] Jamie Palisades: Yes. You can look up the sim name "Port Spinoza" -- it is another historical themed sim - generally of the kind we've pursued.
[9:37] Jamie Palisades: It is part of the Cedar Island estate
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn was wondering if we were just talking about Port Spinoza, or the whole Cedar Island estate?
[9:37] Jamie Palisades: so, like SLNE, AA, and others, it is one of thjose projects (grin) that a CDS resident launched when they deicided they wanted to do their own thing and/or make money at it
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles*
[9:38] Jamie Palisades: we're rather good at birthing profit for other people
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
[9:38] Pip Torok: good question gwyn ... if its a funding issue it may well involve both!
[9:38] Jamie Palisades: Here is what you sgould know about P.S. for now
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmh yes, Pip
[9:38] Jamie Palisades: 1. No formal talks
[9:38] Jamie Palisades: 2. Just auggestion make reently, which may result in a chat with the estate owner
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[9:39] Jamie Palisades: 3. Propobably only involve sthe sim of that name and the next one to the South on the map
[9:39] Jamie Palisades: 4. I understand they originalyl were designed IN ORDER TO fit in with CDS
[9:39] Jamie Palisades: 5. No data on financial feasibility yet
[9:40] Soro Dagostino: Who did them?
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: and finally 6. I think we woudl be best advised to finish whatever we do with the current two proposals first.
[9:40] Pip Torok: Jon i believe
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: Jon Seattle
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: and his friends
[9:40] Soro Dagostino: thanks.
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: roughly, our Guild
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: but premature to say more than "go look" and "maybe they'll be interested"
[9:40] You decline MOON FEVER/MOONGLAS (188, 188, 30) from A group member named Russell Eponym.
[9:40] Jamie Palisades: done
[9:41] Soro Dagostino: Ok, any more on the Port?
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with 6 too — the question was more to understand if, at this stage, the RA ought to get the Guild do a change of the Masterplan in antecipation of those talks, or if it's still premature.
[9:41] Cindy Ecksol: *sigh*
[9:41] Jamie Palisades: We have no assetn from Jon yet, butof I get one I will ask the Guild
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, Cindy
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Jamie! Thanks.
[9:41] Cindy Ecksol: Masterplans do not get changed every time we have a new opportunity
[9:41] Moon Adamant: hello all
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh "take a look" then
[9:42] Pip Torok: hi Moon ...
[9:42] Soro Dagostino: Hello Moon
[9:42] Cindy Ecksol: they are intended to form a framework and then be updated when something happens
[9:42] Moon Adamant: consent to be recorded
[9:42] Cindy Ecksol: but that's a discussion for another time and place...
[9:42] Soro Dagostino: Welcome
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: The GMP assumes some new themes; this would be one; as the plan anticipates; some terrforming assessment would always be needed
[9:42] Jamie Palisades:
[9:42] Cindy Ecksol agrees with Jamie
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, good, so that's one problem less to worry about.
[9:43] Soro Dagostino: General Master Plan -- Item III, 1
[9:43] Jamie Palisades smile s- may I say a few words for level-setting?
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please!
[9:44] Soro Dagostino: Thank you Gwyn
[9:44] Soro Dagostino: YOu have the floor Jamie.
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: We have there maps, for AA+CDS, all with proponents, and all approved by the Guild as feasible. I suspect most of you have seen the display copies in CN. AA also has a set - and they too like them and differ internally
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: *three
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: it remains for the RA to accept the recommendation of the guild ...
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: to approve all 3, or less than all 3 if you folks want to oush it in one direction.
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: .. then AA will need to do the same.
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: You also have revised legislation to enact them.
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: About which we can talk more if you like. Done. Perhaps Moon should present the Guild's report here?
[9:45] Soro Dagostino: Hmmmm, please explain
[9:46] Jamie Palisades looks a question?
[9:46] Soro Dagostino: Revised Legislation?
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: Ag,
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: OK. Two RA acts are required, minimum
[9:46] Soro Dagostino: Is that what is before the body?
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: 1. Majorsim map issues are the RA'
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: ss jurisdiction
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: so you must act on the Guild's recommendation
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: and
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: buying or taking a sim is too
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: so you must act on some kind of mrger, if there is to be one
[9:47] Soro Dagostino: Later?
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: My draft bill from a month ago received comments ...
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: From Pat, right?
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: notably from AA, but also others
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah ok
[9:48] Soro Dagostino: Thank you Gwyn.
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: so I have changed it, and it is posted here ->
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 394#p13240
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: and Pat's question is here
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 394#p13242
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I hope we can answer it too
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: which we could discuss if you like
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please!
[9:48] Soro Dagostino: Is there a motion to approve.
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not yet, Soro — I'd like to clarify at least the issue of "double citizenship and double votes"
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: still, my advice woudl be a. hear Moon, b, approve maps, c. debate merger motion
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I propose Jamie's 'advice' as a motion
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: get the "low hanging fruit"
[9:49] Soro Dagostino: Then we can discuss the issue.
[9:49] Brian Livingston: Request: Cna we get the maps displayed in this chamber before the vote?
[9:50] Soro Dagostino: Moon?
[9:50] Moon Adamant: what i am looking for
[9:50] Moon Adamant: yes, just a sec
[9:50] Soro Dagostino: Is there a second
[9:50] Cindy Ecksol: not sure what exactly the motion is
[9:51] Cindy Ecksol: for a particular bill?
[9:51] Soro Dagostino: The first one.
[9:51] Soro Dagostino: AA
[9:51] Cindy Ecksol: ok, second
[9:51] Soro Dagostino: Discussion . . in order.
[9:51] Soro Dagostino: Moon --
[9:52] Moon Adamant: yes?
[9:52] Soro Dagostino: A presentation as the proponent
[9:52] Moon Adamant: ok
[9:52] Moon Adamant: so hmmmm
[9:52] Moon Adamant: first of all it's important to understand that the AA terrian is continuos and an unity
[9:53] Moon Adamant: with exception of the void Almunecar
[9:53] Moon Adamant: Also, it is important to know that the void Al Garnata has building of a classic design
[9:54] Moon Adamant: for that reason, we chose Al Garnata alqways to be the 'hinge' by which the two territories are joined
[9:54] Moon Adamant: almunecar being placed wherever it best suits the plan
[9:54] Moon Adamant: in option 1 (bottom lefT)
[9:54] Moon Adamant: which is perhaps the most economic solution
[9:54] Moon Adamant: al garnata is placed north of LA
[9:55] Moon Adamant: and Almunecar - which can be completelly terraformed - is placed north of CN
[9:55] Moon Adamant: the comunication is via cardo
[9:55] Sonja Strom: Cardo?
[9:55] Moon Adamant: this option assumes that in time we will do a pelagic band and that the sim next to Alhambra will give it a coastline
[9:56] Moon Adamant: sorry, Decumanum
[9:56] Pip Torok: the north2southstreet in CN Sonja
[9:56] Pip Torok: sorry!
[9:56] Sonja Strom: ok, thanks
[9:57] Moon Adamant: Proposal two alsos uses the connection through the decumanum, but in this case directly through CN-Al Garnata
[9:57] Soro Dagostino: Any more?
[9:57] Moon Adamant: yes, please bear with me
[9:57] Soro Dagostino: of course
[9:58] Moon Adamant: almunecar is placed to give Alhambra its coastline on thi s map - but it could be placed anywhere else
[9:58] Moon Adamant: Proposal 3 makes the connection thrugh the Cardo (E-W main road in CN
[9:59] Moon Adamant: and connects directly with Al garnata and the alhambra village. Again, almunecar is placed where we want
[9:59] Moon Adamant: this proposal needs
[9:59] Moon Adamant: a vertical band (in terms of north-south) of two sims wide
[9:59] Moon Adamant: one to continue to expand teh roman cluster, and the other to work as a transitional space
[10:00] Moon Adamant: in the other options
[10:00] Moon Adamant: 1 and 2
[10:00] Moon Adamant: the roamn cluster expands E-W
[10:00] Moon Adamant: while AA can expand mainly N and E
[10:00] Moon Adamant: doubts?
[10:01] Soro Dagostino: How should we proceed?
[10:01] Moon Adamant: well
[10:02] Moon Adamant: the Guild has approve dthe feasibility of the three solutions
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I understand, for now, the RA ought to approve these three
[10:02] Moon Adamant: and so brings them to RA for approval
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[10:02] Soro Dagostino: Is that the motion?
[10:02] Cindy Ecksol: point oforder soro?
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure (or rather, I second Jamie, who suggested the same)
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, Cindy
[10:02] Soro Dagostino: Yes Cindy
[10:02] Cindy Ecksol: I think we need TWO motions
[10:03] Cindy Ecksol: first motion to approve merger with AA
[10:03] Soro Dagostino: Ok?
[10:03] Cindy Ecksol: second motion to pick a plan
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ahhh I see
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: hm
[10:03] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: could do in either order
[10:03] Cindy Ecksol: after all, if we don't agree to the merger, there will be no plan
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: and my preference woudl be to approve all three, but with a ranking
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, very logically so
[10:03] Cindy Ecksol: well, true jamie -- but then if second motion fails, the first is....hanging
[10:03] Jamie Palisades shrugs, smiles, however you like
[10:04] Cindy Ecksol: but I'm not hung up on that.
[10:04] Cindy Ecksol: shall I propose thefirst motion?
[10:04] Soro Dagostino: Cindy are you making a motion to sever the question?
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: if the will of the RA is to agree with the Guild you smiply could appprove the maps subject to the merger occurring
[10:04] Cindy Ecksol: ah, that would work too...
[10:04] Soro Dagostino: That is the motion on the flooor.
[10:04] Cindy Ecksol: yes, soro, I think we need to or we'll spend forever on this
[10:04] Pip Torok: seconded
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with that
[10:05] Soro Dagostino: Already before the body
[10:05] Cindy Ecksol: wait....what?
[10:05] Jamie Palisades: (there ya go)
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami raises had to ask speak when you get to discussing merger with AA
[10:05] Soro Dagostino: Are you ready for the vote.
[10:05] Cindy Ecksol: wait!
[10:05] Cindy Ecksol: what IS the motion????
[10:05] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[10:05] Jamie Palisades: (just checking, i THINK this is a vote to appprove the maps subject to the merger occurring)
[10:05] Jamie Palisades: )per the Guild's recommendation)
[10:05] Soro Dagostino: Yes -- that is what I understand.
[10:05] Sonja Strom has looked for the motion and does not see it having been made
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I *hope* that's the motion hehe
[10:06] Cindy Ecksol: no....
[10:06] Cindy Ecksol: no such motion was made
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[10:06] Cindy Ecksol: that was a suggestion from jamie
[10:06] Cindy Ecksol: can we start over please?
[10:06] Cindy Ecksol: I thought i seconded a motion to sever the question
[10:06] Jamie Palisades chuckles, well I cant make motions here, thank god, so someone get to it or come up with something else
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ^^
[10:06] Cindy Ecksol: or perhaps I MADE a motion to sever the question
(continued below)

[Cindy Ecksol]

[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Motion: to approve the GMP as proposed by the Guild, subject to the merger with AA to go ahead.
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: Wait one please.
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: Trying to find the motion
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: I know we had one. Discussion and presentaiton followed.
[10:08] Jamie Palisades: ((I;m goign to boldly suggestin that cindy was right, there was none, until Gwyn spoke, and so now hers is in order if seconded)
[10:08] Cindy Ecksol: yes, to discuss the AA billl...
[10:08] Cindy Ecksol: but I made a motion to sever that question
[10:08] Cindy Ecksol: [10:04] Soro Dagostino: Cindy are you making a motion to sever the question?
[10:04] Palisades: if the will of the RA is to agree with the Guild you smiply could appprove the maps subject to the merger occurring
[10:04] Ecksol: ah, that would work too...
[10:04] Dagostino: That is the motion on the flooor.
[10:08] Jamie Palisades: ahhhhhhh
[10:08] Cindy Ecksol:
[10:09] Cindy Ecksol: so are we severing or not? that seems to be the motion
[10:09] Jamie Palisades smiles, thanks Jupiter, Zeus and Demeter that he is no longer LRA
[10:09] Soro Dagostino: No severeance -- no motion
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami:
[10:09] Cindy Ecksol: ok, let's try this again.
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please
[10:09] Cindy Ecksol: I move that we SEVER the question: vote separately on the plans and then on the merger
[10:09] Soro Dagostino: What I thougt was a motion was not.
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seconds Cindy's motion.
[10:10] Cindy Ecksol: thank you.
[10:10] Soro Dagostino: Discussion?
[10:10] You decline Blues Fabrik Sternberg LIVE Musi, Xenosaur (76, 139, 47) from A group member named RogerPaul Loon.
[10:10] Pip Torok: i move to vote
[10:10] Soro Dagostino: Call the question. Second?
[10:10] Cindy Ecksol: yes
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Pip — no need to discuss that
[10:11] Soro Dagostino: all in favor.
[10:11] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[10:11] Brian Livingston: aye
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[10:11] Pip Torok: aye
[10:11] Sonja Strom: aye
[10:11] Cindy Ecksol: great
[10:11] Soro Dagostino: Opposed
[10:11] Soro Dagostino: Motion carries.
[10:11] Soro Dagostino: Adoption of Maps?
[10:11] Cindy Ecksol: new motion: I move that we approve the plans for AA presented by Guild subject to approval of the merger by RA
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds that
[10:11] Pip Torok: second
[10:12] Soro Dagostino: REady for the question?
[10:12] Cindy Ecksol: discussion, please
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[10:12] Soro Dagostino: Yes.
[10:12] Soro Dagostino: Cindy?
[10:12] Soro Dagostino: Than Gwyn
[10:12] Cindy Ecksol: do we want to approve all of the plans, and if so who choose the final plan
[10:12] Sonja Strom: What does it mean that we "approve all of the plans"?
[10:12] Cindy Ecksol nods
[10:13] Soro Dagostino: Moon?
[10:13] Cindy Ecksol: sonja, seems to me that it would mean that someone else would decide which of the three would be implemented
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn withdraws her need to talk, Cindy asked the very same question I had
[10:13] Cindy Ecksol: we can cede that responsibility if we wish.....but I'm not sure that's the right thing to do
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Referendum?
[10:13] Brian Livingston thinks Cindy read several minds with that question
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles at Brian and agrees
[10:14] Cindy Ecksol: do the residents of AA have a preference for one plan or another?
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I understand they have their own set
[10:14] Sonja Strom: A referendum question could make sense in this case.
[10:14] Moon Adamant: have no idea who approves the final plan, but i suppose AA must be consulted as wel in this stage
[10:14] Cindy Ecksol: *sigh*
[10:14] Jamie Palisades: may I answer cindy?
[10:14] Brian Livingston: I would imagien it falls to the executive unless the RA steps in.
[10:14] Sonja Strom: Perhaps if 1) We choose to have AA join us,
[10:15] Soro Dagostino: I believe the three plans were "generally apporved"
[10:15] Sonja Strom: and 2) AA chooses to join us,
[10:15] Soro Dagostino: Then were to be submitted to AA for review and choice.
[10:15] Jamie Palisades waits for sonja to finish
[10:16] Soro Dagostino: Sonja?
[10:16] Sonja Strom: we could have a referendum question for the next election that would ask the citizens of all 10 sims where they would like the geographic joining to be.
[10:16] Sonja Strom: done, thanks
[10:16] Jamie Palisades raises hand
[10:16] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: 3 things.
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: to cindy:
[10:16] Moon Adamant: hmmm our referendum laws do not apply on AA
[10:16] Jamie Palisades waits
[10:16] Moon Adamant: just a comment, sorry
[10:16] Soro Dagostino: Jamie you have the floor.
[10:17] Sonja Strom: Moon, if the AA sims join the CDS, then the CDS laws will apply to them.
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: Thank you, first to cindy's Q:
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: I got a detailed report AA residents were opinated and euqally spit, just like ours
[10:17] Soro Dagostino: Sonja -- please wait for Jamie.
[10:17] Sonja Strom: (Here I am not talking about the geographic joining of sims, which for me is a little bit different)
[10:17] Sonja Strom: ok
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: *equally split,( chuckle)
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: so
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: THEIR decision
[10:17] Jamie Palisades: would be made according to their process
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: which is consensus ratified by the EO
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: now, to sonja;s Q:
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: I advice against a raucuous referendum on this topic
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: it;s not a yes or no
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: not easily driven to decision in a vote
[10:18] Sonja Strom: I think maybe there is a misunderstanding about what I am saying.
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: perhaps
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: let me make my third and last point
[10:19] Jamie Palisades: here is what I ask you to consider doing
[10:19] Jamie Palisades: four steps
[[10:19] Jamie Palisades: 1. RA approves maps today -- or fewer than 3 if you disagree with the Guild
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: Motion 1
[10:19] Jamie Palisades: 2. This becomes part of our offer to AA, and they can accept or reject
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: Motion 2
[10:20] Jamie Palisades: 3. if they accept one, we are done; if not, then we are back to multiple mutually acceptable choices
[10:20] Jamie Palisades: in which case
[10:20] Jamie Palisades: 4. it comes back here - because major map changes are your competency, senators, not mine
[10:20] Jamie Palisades: done, thanks
[10:20] Cindy Ecksol: thank you for clarifying the process you expect to follow, jamie
[10:21] Soro Dagostino: The LRA believes the Motions are two.
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: subject to your approval !
[10:21] Soro Dagostino: Approval ov the Guild's plans.
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: Approval of their being presented to AA for review and approval of one plan.
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: Is that the sense of the body?
[10:22] Cindy Ecksol: soro, where do you see Jamie's "merger proposal" coming into this?
[10:22] Cindy Ecksol: we still have to deal with the "politics" as well as the plans
[10:23] Sonja Strom: I would like to explain more what I was talking about before.
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we're supposed to settle the politics
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And please, Sonja, I'd like to hear you...
[10:23] Cindy Ecksol: yes....but neither Soro nor Jamie addressed that issue
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mean, aren't they?
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles*
[10:23] Sonja Strom: I don't see the maps as crucial to the AA sims joining us. They can join the CDS and then we can decide how and when the sims would be joined geographically.
[10:24] Sonja Strom: From what Jamie said I guess we could have a map be included in the process of approval of the AA sims joining the CDS. That is one option. However, I don't see that as necessary.
[10:24] Sonja Strom: They could join with us politically without joining geographically at first, and then we could decide on the geographic joining together as one larger community.
[10:24] Sonja Strom: done, thanks
[10:24] Cindy Ecksol: Sonja, the problem is that AA won't join unless they know what the plans are that we're willing to go along with
[10:24] Jamie Palisades: If I may, sonja, yes, AA's EO rejected that option.
[10:24] Pip Torok: quite sonja!
[10:24] Sonja Strom: Ah, ok
[10:24] Sonja Strom: I didn't know that.
[10:25] Cindy Ecksol: *smiles*
[10:25] Moon Adamant: i have a technical doubt which is i don't know if our election software is prepared for other than yes/no questions at referenda
[10:25] Sonja Strom: So the AA sims are requiring a map as a part of the offer for them to join us.
[10:25] Cindy Ecksol: can't blame them -- I wouldn't want to turn over my sims for unspecified terraforming either
[10:25] Moon Adamant: quite:-)
[10:26] Cindy Ecksol: so there IS a motion on the table:
[10:26] Cindy Ecksol: [10:11] Cindy Ecksol: new motion: I move that we approve the plans for AA presented by Guild subject to approval of the merger by RA
[10:11] Llewelyn seconds that
[10:26] Cindy Ecksol: are we ready to vote on that?
[10:26] Soro Dagostino: I don't know.
[10:26] Pip Torok: I think we are rteady to vote on that
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would be... because Sonja's most excellent suggestion can still be used if we have three proposals and AA has to pick one of them
[10:27] Sonja Strom: I am wondering when you say "we approve the plans," this means we approve of all three of them?
[10:27] Moon Adamant: would be nice
[10:27] Pip Torok: we mean exactly that imo sonja
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Yes.
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: I understand the motion to mean that the RA would accept any of the three, if AA expressed a sole preference for one,
[10:27] Sonja Strom: So AA would be who makes the decision?
[10:27] Cindy Ecksol: in conjuncton with the exec
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha. No
[10:27] Sonja Strom: Which plan to chose?
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: so yes to sonja
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: after all it;s a two party, two step decision
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, yes to Sonja
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We give three choices, they pick one.
[10:28] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[10:28] You decline Rancho Pacifico Resort Marina Front Entrance from A group member named Harper Messmer.
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think it's reasonable. They rely on us to do the planning work and have confidence; but they make the last call. I like it.
[10:28] Cindy Ecksol: OR they may come back with something else that we will have to evaluate
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: True
[10:29] Moon Adamant: hope not
[10:29] Soro Dagostino: And if they do, we agree to merger?
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: no....
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: we haven't done that yet....
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: let's vote on this first
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: there is some discussion on the BIG bill...
[10:29] Soro Dagostino: That is a call for the question?
[10:29] Cindy Ecksol: please
[10:29] Soro Dagostino: Second?
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn totally agrees with Cindy! This is juat a *minor* issue, so I second
[10:30] Brian Livingston: Please restate the motion, for the sake of clarity.
[10:30] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: [10:11] Cindy Ecksol: new motion: I move that we approve the plans for AA presented by Guild subject to approval of the merger by RA
[10:11] Llewelyn seconds that
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn got it
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:30] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?/
[10:30] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[10:30] Pip Torok: aye
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[10:31] Brian Livingston: aye
[10:31] Soro Dagostino: Oppposed?
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn points out the long silence
[10:32] Sonja Strom is not opposed
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:32] Soro Dagostino: Motion carried.
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bravo!
[10:32] Cindy Ecksol: new motion: I move to adopt Jamie's Al Andalus bill as proposed in the forum: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 394#p13242
[10:32] Brian Livingston: I have concerns, so discussion requested
[10:32] Soro Dagostino: Second
[10:32] Cindy Ecksol: needs a second
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes. Not without discussion.
[10:33] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn -- is that a second?
[10:33] Moon Adamant deletes the maps
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would move to discuss a LOT first
[10:33] Jamie Palisades: ready to discuss when you are
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless, of course,
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cindy just wants to adopt it in *general*
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: with which I would agree
[10:33] Soro Dagostino: Is there a second?
[10:33] Cindy Ecksol: I just want to put it on th etable, guys.
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[10:33] Cindy Ecksol: can we have a second please?
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I second on that assumption, Cindy
[10:34] Cindy Ecksol: whew!
[10:34] Cindy Ecksol: good, let's discuss!
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: YES!
[10:34] Soro Dagostino: Discussion.
[10:34] Jamie Palisades: Soro, shall I start with Pat's posted questions?
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mr LRA, I know you called earlier who wished to speak on this,
[10:34] Jamie Palisades: As I think a lof of other aspects, we talked about before
[10:34] Soro Dagostino: Jamie -- you are the proponent.
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but neither Pat nor Moon were available
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wonder if Pat would also like to be allowed to speak
[10:35] Soro Dagostino: You may
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: Well, let me suggest that I anser Pat first, then we see what else people wish to discuss
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sorry for being out of order
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please, jamie
[10:35] Soro Dagostino: everything is out of order today
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: Very well. And nice to see you Pat
[10:35] Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to speak on this if possible. but i'd like to hear jamie first
[10:36] Soro Dagostino: Jamie -- you have the floor.
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: Pat says three things.
I was sorry to see you sell recently; I hope you're retaining your land or citizenship here? If not, I'd regret losing you. But your counsel is
available to us in any case.
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: so let me respond to the questions you raised
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: i have a plot in NFS so, still a citizen
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: First, he suggests that the constitution needs work to retrofit AA into it.
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: (ah good)
[10:37] Jamie Palisades: I am not sure that any action is needed other than a 2/3rds majority for that
part of the AA-CDS merger bill that affects constitutional issues -- but will
be very grateful for his eyes and any others on the issues, and excpect we
could make those conforming changes rather easily. Assuming AA accepts our
offer, and assuming we make one.
[10:37] Jamie Palisades: not to brush it off, but making any conforming changes sounds like a fairly easy exercise to me
[10:37] Jamie Palisades: that's 1
[10:37] Jamie Palisades: Second, Pat asks how AA would choose its first RA members.
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: He opposes giving
them any, but just in case we do, he wants to know if they're using a democratic election. I am no expert on AA law, but I gather they do NOT use ballot widgets, factions, Sainte Lague and Borda this and that .
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: Letme treport that, in drafting this ...
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: I asked if they select in an election. They said no, they have a town-meeting consensus process, rather like Cedar Island once
advocated. This is a proposed merger.
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: While they plan to join our process,
if it occurs, I do not propose that we tell them how to do their business up front Soooo I respectfully decline any suggestion that we do so.
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: That's #2
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: point of information. i don't oppose AA having RA reps
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: as long as they make it through your facion system
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: To the third point
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: Finally, and probably Pat's main point, he does not like the special selection, and the "converting dual citizens" device I drafted. Fair enough. Let me tell you why they are there.
[10:40] Patroklus Murakami: i didn't say that jamie. please don't put words in my mouth
[10:40] Soro Dagostino: Gentlemen
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: Plently of time to debate. I apologize for any inference to the contrary
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: on the business of how to selecte, and how to count
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: My prior draft suggested two things in this regard.
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: One is that, as the combined citizenship will increase the number of RA seats, we go ahead and have AA fill them now. (As opposed to join us now and maybe you get represented later.)
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: To me that seemed more consistent with a merger than a hostile takeover -- and more than a few AA citizens expressed the same view in their meetings, I am told. Hold that thought a moment please.
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: The second (and final) issue is that the number must be calculated.
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: How many more RA members?
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: eh, apologies that this IS complex.
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: whici is silly
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: as we are really only talkign abuot a small number
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: but that's diplomacy :"D
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: In my first draft in April I suggested that we just calculate the new RA number, based on combined CDS and AA citizens using CDS citizenship rules, and let them fill whatever that increment is .. but with a minimum of 2, to give them some assurance that we will not swamp them (given that their own citizen count is 31 at last check).
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: now, I changed that in this last draft, because AA replied and said it was unfair for all the dual citizens to automatically be erased from their headcount. In other words, in the apportionment between old CDS and AA, my first method credits all dual citizens to CDS.
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: So I wrote the revision about dual citizen counts to appease their fear.
[10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: Tjhere's still a backstop minimum, asyou can see.
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: and honestly?
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: I doubt it all matters
[10:43] Jamie Palisades: but
[10:43] Jamie Palisades: are we to eat them, or merge with them? TAHt imnpression WILL matter
[10:43] Jamie Palisades: done, thanks, and thank you for your patience Patroklus.
[10:43] You decline Circe's Memphis , Laurel Arts Isle (207, 92, 22) from A group member named Circe Broom.
[10:43] Soro Dagostino: Pat?
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami: i understand that the motivation for the proposal is entirely honorable
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: and that the concern is to bring in AA without 'eating them
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: we also need to respect their traditions
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: as well as insist on respect for our own
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: so my disagreeement is with the detail, not the principle
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: AA should have their own RA members as a transitional measure
[10:44] Naughty Nibbles Black Forest Slice whispers: Yum!
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: they should elect them in a way that makes sense for them
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: but we must also look at the detail of the proposal
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: my principle objection is to CDS/AA residents, in effect, getting two votes
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: more than other CDS or AA residents
(continued below)

[Cindy Ecksol]

[10:46] Strummer Swansong: Strummer swansong is playing at 11 SLT....hope you can make it...pls check the NC attached for LM
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: people with land in both communities have already contributed to the selecton of this RA
[10:46] Strummer Swansong: owned by Strummer Swansong gave you 'strummer wc sun 17th may' ( http://slurl.com/secondlife/Paradisiac/68/38/23 ).
[10:46] Pip Torok is such a dual citizen and agrees with Pat
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: if they also take part in selecting the additional RA members doesn't that mean their voice counts for more than other CDS and AA residents?
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: i'm sure that isn't really the intention
[10:46] Jamie Palisades smiles. Me too. I'd welcome a fair suggestion that you think AA will accept.
[10:46] Soro Dagostino: What of reqesting the CDS/AA folk to define which area they attorn to?
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: well, there are other potential solutions
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: we could hold an election for AA citizens to choose their representatives
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: but i'm afraid CDS/AA dual citizens would not be eligible
[10:47] Cindy Ecksol: /mem wonders who "we" might be
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "we" the RA, we set elections
[10:48] Cindy Ecksol:
[10:48] Jamie Palisades: (Soro that is what my bill did, but pat's correct that this does not reduce the number already attributed to CDS RA members .. and I asked them about an electuon and they declined)
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: or we could hold a special election for the whole of the CDS and AA to elect a new combined RA for the merged entity
[10:48] You decline AQUASTAR LOUNGE, Mephit (186, 184, 62) from A group member named SD Atlass.
[10:48] ZDiva Sorbet's Wearable Controller: THANK YOU all for your well-wishes and sweet words whilst I recovered from one of the nastiest sore throats in history. I am back, and ready to entertain! At 4pm today I'll be at Grafton Mall (LM and details to follow) for my only performance of the day. Tuesday evening I'll be at the Star Bar...and then that's all for performances until Wednesday the 27th! Hope to see you today!
[10:48] Soro Dagostino: Hmmm, where does that leave us?
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, i've only seen the proposal today so not had much time to think of solutions
[10:49] Moon Adamant: why don't AA appoint 2 reps pro term untill a general election can be called in both communities?
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The "special election" would be the more obvious way — it would be as if two (or more) seats were left vacant, and everybody would be allowed to vote for it. But .... just have one vote
[10:49] Soro Dagostino: The Motion onlyspeaks to merger.
[10:49] Soro Dagostino: Isn't this premature?
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Soro, and NOT approving Jamie's draft bill of the merger?
[10:49] Jamie Palisades: That's certainly possible, Moon, and will only get trashed in AA if they think they count desserves more, i guess
[10:50] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[10:50] Soro Dagostino: Cidny
[10:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* too
[10:50] Brian Livingston: We can't allow dual citizens to vote twice, in effect creating a situation where they have more of an influence over the makeup of the RA. It flies in the face of our democratic principles
[10:50] Cindy Ecksol: two questions:
[10:50] Brian Livingston pieps down
[10:50] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn nest
[10:50] Cindy Ecksol: 1. who in AA gets to vote on the merger?
[10:51] Cindy Ecksol: 2. who in AA gets to choose the AA reps
[10:51] Cindy Ecksol: Jamie laid out a process that seems to cover both, but I think perhaps if we look at them separately we may be able to clarify more easily
[10:52] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[10:52] Cindy Ecksol: so are there any objects to ALL current AA citizens getting to vote on the merger?
[10:52] Cindy Ecksol: *objections
[10:53] Pip Torok: doews that include double/cits cindy?
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: i think it's problematic
[10:53] Soro Dagostino: The LRA is at a disadvantage -- I could not find the proposal
[10:53] Cindy Ecksol: yes.
[10:53] Cindy Ecksol: The [additional] vacant [RA] positions will be filled by [a process designated by AA management, consistent with AA law, from among persons who are (a) new CDS citizens from AA will be counted and (b) any "converting dual citizens."] [The newly selected RA members shall] serve [either (a)] the remainder of the current RA term [or (b), if they are selected less than one month prior to the closing date for RA candidacy in the next RA general election, for the remainder of the current term plus the next term.]
[10:53] Jamie Palisades: that;s it
[10:53] Cindy Ecksol: whoops...sorry, wrong paste...
[10:53] Cindy Ecksol: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 394#p13242
[10:53] Jamie Palisades: (and I will raise my hand for a prodedural point after the current queue of 2 or 3 is exhausted)
[10:53] Cindy Ecksol: for the whole bill
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: um AA citizens voting on merger?
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: I am lost here
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: they do
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: not
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: vote
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: there
[10:54] Cindy Ecksol: excuse me.....
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: hmn? ARab consultation traditions, town meetings
[10:54] Soro Dagostino: Where does the body want to go with this.
[10:54] Cindy Ecksol: I misspoke -- they do not vote, they contribute to consensus
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: as some of you know
[10:54] Cindy Ecksol: no election...
[10:54] Sonja Strom is noticing a couple of hands up in the room
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: Queue, Mr LRA?
[10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn notices them too
[10:55] Soro Dagostino: Sonja
[10:55] Sonja Strom: Thank you,
[10:55] Sonja Strom: I would be ok with AA choosing their own 2 representatives for the remainder of this term - it would only be for a couple of RA meetings.
[10:55] Sonja Strom: (done thanks
[10:55] You decline New Arena, The GreenOgham (32, 86, 28) from A group member named Ayjla Onmura.
[10:55] You decline Pier's Paradise from A group member named RockPianoman Pienaar.
[10:55] Moon Adamant: i agree with Sonja
[10:55] Brian Livingston: *raises bunny paw*
[10:56] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[10:56] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[10:56] Moon Adamant: sensible way
[10:56] Moon Adamant: and Guild meeting in 5 minutes at NFS School be there or be square
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[10:56] You decline Cascadia Harmonics, Cascadia (233, 20, 29) from A group member named Fyrm Fouroux.
[10:57] Moon Adamant: meet you all there later .)
[10:57] Sonja Strom notices at least one hand and bunny paw in the air
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[10:57] Soro Dagostino: What do you want to do?
[10:57] Soro Dagostino: Pat
[10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn grumbles
[10:57] Sonja Strom: *lol*
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: after the others soro
[10:57] Cindy Ecksol: we really ought to stay and finish this
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: i don't want to get hit by gwyn or brian
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Motion: to extend the discussion (yes, we also have the Monastery next)
[10:58] Cindy Ecksol: second
[10:58] Soro Dagostino: I cannot see the hands -- would you please note in chat
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and no, i wanted to talk about something else actually, but I think that the motion to extend is important at this moment)
[10:58] Cindy Ecksol raises hand
[10:58] Soro Dagostino: Cidy
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand*
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: and I rewen mine, which cam after cindy's first
[10:58] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn next
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: *renew
[10:59] Cindy Ecksol: just wanted to ask Sonja:
[10:59] Brian Livingston: *raises paw*
[10:59] Soro Dagostino: Cnidy
[10:59] Cindy Ecksol: sonja, what if the merger does not occur until after the new term starts
[10:59] Soro Dagostino: Jamie then biran
[10:59] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn/Sonja done?
[10:59] Cindy Ecksol: are you still ok with AA 'selecting its own reps"?
[10:59] Jamie Palisades: oops, cindy/sonja I meant
[11:00] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn
[11:00] Soro Dagostino: /
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, I understand that "temporary solutions" are not to be shunned at. However, even though the RA is sovereign in its decisions, it's also subject to the SC to review the constitutionality of what the RA decides.
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: My suggestion would be to "go by the book" instead of inventing new rules. We have the case of "special elections"
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which are called when seats are vacant that nobody is able to fill them
[11:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This could be seen as a similar situation:
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The RA has expanded, since it will have more citizens
[11:01] Jamie Palisades: ugh
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A few more seats (at least 2) will be vacated
[11:01] Soro Dagostino: Hmmmm, out time has run out.
[11:01] Jamie Palisades: we could indeed
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: AA citizens WILL be citizens of *the whole of the CDS*
[11:01] Jamie Palisades: was my hand raised and not recognized, Mr LRA?
[11:01] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[11:01] Sonja Strom: To answer Cindy's question, it would be less ideal if the merger happened after the next election, true, but in that case I think I would still be ok with it.
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be an alternative — AA has 60 days to think about our proposal anyway
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So they could simply all vote on the next term
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No need for "special rules"
[11:02] Jamie Palisades: ahem )
[11:02] Jamie Palisades: Two things
[11:02] Soro Dagostino: Since you don't seem to need me. I'll be going
[11:02] Jamie Palisades: first here is why I do not agree, respectfully, wuith Gwyneth
[11:02] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[11:03] Soro Dagostino: Then Brian
[11:03] Jamie Palisades: to force that kind of special election here does one of two thigns
[11:03] Jamie Palisades: either it makes AA candidates run against CDS candidates for the (say) 2 new seats
[11:03] Jamie Palisades: to join the 7 existing from CDS
[11:03] Jamie Palisades: or
[11:03] Jamie Palisades: it forced AA to run its own election
[11:03] Jamie Palisades: while it is still its own place with its own rules
[11:04] Patroklus Murakami still has hand raised. after brian?
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: both seem, simply, rude to me. Now, I will offer an alternative
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: if you are minded to approve this
and to let AA select its reps
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: but the double counting is a fear
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: why not approve it but specify two reps period
elminate all the double counting
leave the rest as it stands
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: .. let me point out
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: RA is being asked to approve an offer
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: whatever its terms
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: AA can accept or reject
[11:04] Jamie Palisades: so
[11:05] Jamie Palisades: put your best deal on the table, is my advice, assuming you wish to see the marger actually happen
[11:05] Jamie Palisades: I would not advise getting obsessed with the
[11:05] Jamie Palisades: shape of the lace doilies on the table
[11:05] Soro Dagostino: Jamie -- are you done?
[11:05] Jamie Palisades: if you can't get food on it. Yes, now
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pushy, pushy, Mr Chancellor "don't be obsessed with democracy"
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: tsk
[11:05] Soro Dagostino: Brian
[11:05] Soro Dagostino: Then Pat
[11:05] Brian Livingston: Thank you sir
[11:06] Jamie Palisades: Democracy, the Romans would tell us, does not require
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: whatever OCD is....
[11:06] Soro Dagostino: Brian
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* for later again
[11:06] Pip Torok: Aren't we arguing anothewr's issue? I mean double-citizenry is an issue if/only if AA says it IS an issue
[11:06] Soro Dagostino: BRian
[11:06] Soro Dagostino: Then Pat
[11:07] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn -- then Pip
[11:07] Brian Livingston: I don't see the concern about hte influence of dual citizens on the nwely expanded RA as being OCD or hyperbole, but rather a basic democratic principle, that each citizen's vote and influence is the same as his or her bfellow citizen's. By countign hte votes of dual citizens, we are magnifyign their voice and influnece, and again, it flies int he face of our democratic principles. I am eager to see a merger occur, but i cannot support it if it compromises our democratic foundation
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear
[11:08] Soro Dagostino: Pat?
[11:08] Brian Livingston: I don't see a problem with dual citizens voting for the merger, as tehy hav a financial stake in the matter, but when it comes to our representation, no I can't vote for it.
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: we need to uphold the consititutional requirement that "The Representative Assembly (RA) is a body of democratically elected factions which represent different ideological views of its citizens"
[11:09] Soro Dagostino: Excuse me
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: sorry?
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmh?
[11:09] Soro Dagostino: To brian
[11:09] Brian Livingston is done with his comments
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh
[11:09] Brian Livingston: I cede the floor
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: ty brian
[11:09] Soro Dagostino: Now Gwyn
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, Pat first, Mr LRA
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: i have a few more words
[11:09] Soro Dagostino: TY
[11:10] Soro Dagostino: Pat
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: look, we need to respect our own principles as well as those of AA
[11:10] Jamie Palisades smiles, listens
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: we can't just suspend the idea that we elect RA members for a month or so because it's convenient
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: nor can we ignore double counting in whatever form it might take
[11:11] Jamie Palisades: (I'll ask to join the queue after Gwyn & whoever else)
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: i think we should, in dialogue with AA, try to find a way in which both traditions can be respected when choosing additional reps for the RA
[11:11] Soro Dagostino: Yes Jamie
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: that's all
[11:12] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn?
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Obviously I don't wish that the new AA citizens feel overswamped by us or anything... but if the "special election" is not a solution (as Jamie pointed out, it might even look worse from the AA's point of view), let's Keep It Simple. Campaigning in the CDS for the 11th term will start in a month or so. The proposal,
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: as it stands, even gives the AA 60 days to reject it
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it means... with sims being moved around and such...
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: .... that we might not be "finished" with everything by the end of June
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So...
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's simply agree
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that the AA is "officially" merged with the CDS
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: by the start of the campaigning for the next term
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'll recalculate all seats
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and, well, every citizen — no matter where they have land in — will have a vote
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But just *one* vote
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's all. It's not as if we're saying "oh, you'll have to wait a year or so".
[11:14] Soro Dagostino: Are you finished?
[11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just a few weeks — and I'm sure they won't answer to our proposal *today*
[11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, thank you
[11:14] Soro Dagostino: Who is next?
[11:14] Brian Livingston: *raises his hand to discuss his concern with a different section of the proposal*
[11:14] Soro Dagostino: Brian
[11:14] Jamie Palisades: I thoguth I was, but did not notice
[11:15] Brian Livingston: Jamie was first, sir
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Brian, I have other issues too
[11:15] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[11:15] Cindy Ecksol raises hand to be added to the queue one more time
[11:15] Jamie Palisades: 1. I believe Brian's appropriate concern about double counting would be addressed by assigning two seats to the estate knowm to have between 20 & 31 citizens.
[11:15] Soro Dagostino: Cindy to Follow Brian
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: 2,. I will not respond to some of the more derogatory personal aspects of various views about who champions democray.
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: Suffice to say we disagree
[11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: In corporate work one is obligaed to respect he righs of shareholders to vote
[11:16] Soro Dagostino: Brian
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: aexcuse me?
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: .. but ...
[11:16] Soro Dagostino: ooops
[11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[11:16] Soro Dagostino: continue
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: also in mergers, fair law permits the creation of bridge measures
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: as would a fair minded person here
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: finally, ladies and gentlemen
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: I have brought you a proposal AA woudl accept
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: it is well known that I believe he byzantine overcomplications of CDS election law to be silly
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: and wasteful
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ^^
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn gasps.
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn *covers her ears*
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: I hope no one is surprised that I am trying to find a simple fair soluiton
[11:18] Jamie Palisades:
[11:18] Jamie Palisades: and I invite you, as the legislature into whose hand I have places a proposal, to do better
[11:18] Jamie Palisades: but cuation you
[11:18] Jamie Palisades: I gave you one that will work
[11:18] Jamie Palisades: so: best of luck. Done, thanks
[11:18] Soro Dagostino: Brian
[11:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* (after Brian and Cindy)
[11:19] Patroklus Murakami raises hand (after brian, cindy, gwyn)
[11:19] Soro Dagostino: (Soro looks at watch)
[11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I had a motion, a seconded one, to extend the discussion )
[11:20] Brian Livingston: My final point of conern is regarding point 8, which permits the EO of AA to, after consultation with thecitizens of those territories, disolve the merger at the 1 year anniversary. It seems a bit concerning that we give AA this ability, but do not reserve such rights for ourselves. Again, I just read this overearlier today, so alternatives aren't readily available. Hmmm, in short i am not particularly comfortable with that provision.
[11:21] Soro Dagostino: Please state when you finish your comment.
[11:21] Brian Livingston: I would be interested in exploring this provision a bit further and the reasoning behind its inclusion as it is written, with all respect
[11:21] Brian Livingston is done
[11:21] Soro Dagostino: Cindy?
[11:21] Cindy Ecksol: thx
[11:22] Cindy Ecksol: I just wanted to comment that we've been talking about "democratic" vs. "undemocratic" with respect to AA because they do not have elections as we do
[11:23] Cindy Ecksol: would like to point out that the AA consensus process for choosing reps and deciding issues is exactly as democratic as our own process...elections are not the ONLY democratic process that exists
[11:23] Cindy Ecksol: if we need to have AA reps chosen that way (in their own democratic process) to be members of a "faction" once the merger is complete....
[11:23] Cindy Ecksol: no reason why we can't designate them as such
[11:23] Cindy Ecksol: but silly to be arguing that such a selection would not be "democratic"
[11:24] Cindy Ecksol: done
[11:24] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn?
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you Mr LRA
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry, but unfortunately, when we discuss pragmatism vs. principles, I'm solidly behind principles. Even if this means in the short term that we might lose some opportunities, in the long term, it's our reputation that is also at stake...
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, to keep it short, obviously I'm not totally against temporary measures, if they seem fair, just, and don't violate any Constitutional rights.
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However,
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I still maintain the point that we could simply wait a few weeks and let things settle at the beginning of the next term.
[11:25] Jamie Palisades: Try that June 30 AA deadline, as previously discussed
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead of dealing with a "provisional" measure that, well, overrules all our constitutional provisions of equal rights...
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That works, jamie
(continued below)

[Cindy Ecksol]

[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'd suggest simply to cross all those sections related to "double counting", special appointments, and so on
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, well, let the new reps get elected regularly
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If we were at the beginning of a term, I might argue differently
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But we're not.
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So...
[11:26] Cindy Ecksol shrugs
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Two further points, if I may
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I definitely second Brian's thoughts
[11:26] Cindy Ecksol: that's fine -- and we may as well vote and move on since AA is not going to agree to such an offer
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The CDS should also have the same one-year-clause
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because of 4 weeks, Cindy?!
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's... preposterous
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aren't they supposed to be as fair-minded as we are?
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We COULD also do something else, e.g. NOT call any RA meetings until next term
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if that's what worries them....
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I had two things still...
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, one is Brian's issue
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if the AA is allowed to agree to separate again in a year,
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the CDS ought to have the same right too
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if only implied...
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The last point is about the whole mess of the not-for-profit
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that, suddenly, out of the clear sky
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: drops on us like a bomb
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and... let me quote:
[11:28] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn, your time is up.
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "using two nominees from CDS and two nominees from AA as the nominal organizers, and the CDS chancellor (by virtue of office) as a presiding director [or manager, or such other similar arrangement as applicable local law may permit, in a nonprofit company form reasonably acceptable to AA management and the CDS government. That organization shall have the purpose of reporting to, taking direction from and managing for the benefit of the CDS government."
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mr LRA
[11:29] Soro Dagostino: I have not wanted to invoke the that rule
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If I cannot have more time, I'm afraid I'll have to vote utterly against this proposal
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sorry
[11:30] Soro Dagostino: That is your perogative
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As you can see, this proposal has a few traps
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn gives up
[11:30] Soro Dagostino: Jamie -- will you sum up for the proponent
[11:30] Sonja Strom: /sees that Patroklus has his hand up too
[11:31] Patroklus Murakami coughs
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I make a SERIOUS protest, Mr LRA. This is the first time, in five years, that our freedom of speech has been cut short!
[11:31] Soro Dagostino: Jamie will you yield to Pat
[11:31] Sonja Strom was cut short on the flag conversation
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Second time even. Oh my.
[11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, we'll be all ruled by a non-profit anyway
[11:32] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[11:32] Soro Dagostino: Please yield to Pat
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: is jamie afk? may I have the floor?
[11:33] Soro Dagostino: Hmmmmm, he does not appear to be with us.
[11:33] Soro Dagostino: at
[11:33] Soro Dagostino: Pat*
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: ty
[11:33] Brian Livingston flings a rubber band at jamie
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: look, we all want to bring in AA to the CDS
[11:33] Jamie Palisades: ( for convenience I believe Gwyn's suggestion would do this: It would replace section 4 of the bill with this: AA citizens hwo become CDS citizens by operation of this merger will vote in the next regular CDS RA election. I agree with Cindy though, Gwyn's suggestion is naive: "taxation without representation" rarely goes over well in Western countries. I see not problem with a MUTUAL one year back out.)
[11:33] Patroklus Murakami: there is no question about that
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: but this proposal has only been seen, in it's current form, for a few hours
[11:34] Patroklus Murakami: and several RA members clearly have issues with it
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, exactly
[11:35] Soro Dagostino: Point of Order
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: i am confident we can find a solution that would be acceptable to both CDS and AA
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: let's focus on that, keep our eyes on the prize
[11:35] Sonja Strom: Although, the representation issue has been the same in the proposal for some time...
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: despite our disagreements
[11:35] Jamie Palisades: sorry, yes. Several RA meetings are scheduled. I do think you can act within the tiem available to propose something fair that is not so naive as to give AA no rights on the CDS RA. Let those who think they can take up PEN
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: that's all
[11:36] Soro Dagostino: Is it time to postpone this to the next meeting?
[11:37] Pip Torok: I'd say yes, Mr LRA
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd second that motion, since some people wish to leave, because I see there are a LOT of more questions on the proposal that I wasn't even aware of
[11:37] Soro Dagostino: Or -- are you ready to vote?
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Only in general — not on the specifics.
[11:37] Soro Dagostino: Pip's statement is the motion
[11:37] Soro Dagostino: There is a second
[11:37] Soro Dagostino: Non-debateble
[11:37] Soro Dagostino: In favor?
[11:38] Pip Torok: aye
[11:38] Sonja Strom: abstain
[11:38] Cindy Ecksol: not sure what we're voting on
[11:38] Brian Livingston: aye
[11:38] Cindy Ecksol: to adjourn?
[11:38] Soro Dagostino: Postponement
[11:38] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[11:38] Soro Dagostino: of the matter.
[11:38] Pip Torok: no .. to postpone issue to next meeting
[11:38] Soro Dagostino: Yes.
[11:39] Soro Dagostino: Next meeting.
[11:39] You decline !! Nederpoort Virtual g, Sankt Marx (170, 21, 22) from A group member named Quinton Diavolo.
[11:39] You decline Pier's Paradise from A group member named RockPianoman Pienaar.
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye on postponing to the next meeting
[11:39] Soro Dagostino: Opposed
[11:40] Soro Dagostino: Motion carried.
[11:40] Soro Dagostino: We are very late, is there a motion to adjoun and carry the remainming business to the m=next meeting?
[11:41] Sonja Strom: I move to adjourn and carry all remaining business from this meeting to the next one.
[11:41] Pip Torok: second
[11:41] Soro Dagostino: Second?
[11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[11:41] Soro Dagostino: ok, missed that
[11:41] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[11:42] Pip Torok: aye
[11:42] Sonja Strom: aye
[11:42] Brian Livingston: aye
[11:42] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: opposed
[11:42] Soro Dagostino: Motion to adjourn is carried.