RA Minutes 14 June 2009 (3 parts)

[Cindy Ecksol]

[9:06] Soro Dagostino: Hmmm, Its after 0900
[9:06] Pip Torok: hi rose!
[9:06] Rose Springvale: hi everyone!
[9:06] Soro Dagostino: Hello Rose.
[9:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello all!
[9:06] Pip Torok: hi gwyn
[9:06] Soro Dagostino: Hello Gwyn
[9:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Rosie
[9:06] Rose Springvale:
[9:06] Cindy Ecksol: hi rose, gwyn
[9:06] Soro Dagostino: We have a Quorum
[9:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow love that dress, Cindy!!!
[9:06] Cindy Ecksol: soro, I have a hard stop today at 10:30
[9:06] Cindy Ecksol: thx!
[9:07] Soro Dagostino: Heh! I wish I did!
[9:07] Cindy Ecksol: recorder is running
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:07] Soro Dagostino: Could we begin?
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn doesn't see the recorder yet but definitely consents to be recorded
[9:08] Cindy Ecksol: black box under the table gwyn, but doesn't accept a "touch to consent" -- consent in chat is fine.
[9:08] Soro Dagostino: consent to recordation
[9:08] Pip Torok: nor does Pip but he consents to be recorded
[9:08] Cindy Ecksol: consent
[9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I see
[9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[9:08] Rose Springvale: consents as well
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh I b.?
[9:10] Pip Torok: Moon s bit out of date! ..
[9:10] Soro Dagostino: Are there any changes to the Agenda?
[9:10] Cindy Ecksol: sec...
[9:10] Rose Springvale: Soro, if i want to speak and offer changed to proposed amendments, do i indicate now?
[9:10] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[9:10] Rose Springvale: *possibly*
[9:10] Rose Springvale: need to see how the discussion goes
[9:11] Soro Dagostino: But now is the time to change the Agenda.
[9:11] Soro Dagostino: Please note what it is you would like to add
[9:11] Rose Springvale: well, if we discuss constitutional amendments, i want to be in queue
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have some doubts on the strange headers for the agenda... e.g. why is a constitutional amendment put under "General Master Plan", and why is a report by the SC under "culture, entertainment and sports"? Besides that, assuming that the proposed const. amendment that we discussed last week goes under III 1., I don't object to the "strange headers"
[9:11] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right! I find it only amusing
[9:12] Cindy Ecksol: Soro, I'd like to request that we deal with the AA stuff first since I need to leave at 10:30
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, once might consider that listening to CLaude or his representative is a "fine sport" ...
[9:12] Rose Springvale gave you Elastic clause.
[9:12] Soro Dagostino: If you would like, you can write a form for us to use.
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with discussing AA first and seconds Cindy
[9:12] Pip Torok: shame if Pat isnt here by then, but ...
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Soro... sure But I like funny, nonsense things too — they get to be part of the CDS tradition and make stronger bonds
[9:13] Pip Torok: (btw Pat will be about half-hour late
[9:13] Soro Dagostino: Do you wish the chair to yield to you Gwyn?
[9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why? I'm fine where I am, thank you very much
[9:13] Soro Dagostino: The form is the one that my predecessor left, Never saw another form.
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see.
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: hi everyone, sorry i'm late
[9:14] Soro Dagostino: Hello Pat.
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: interesting
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Pat!
[9:14] Pip Torok: Hi Pat!! <relief>
[9:14] Cindy Ecksol: ah, here's pat now!
[9:14] Soro Dagostino: Any other changes proposed?
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: london transport! bah!
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: The Motion on the floor is to move item III 1 to be the first item of business.
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: It has been seconded.
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: Non-debatable.
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami looks for agenda
[9:16] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[9:16] Pip Torok: aye
[9:16] Cindy Ecksol: ball on floor pat
[9:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn says aye (Pat: the small light blue ball)
[9:17] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[9:17] Soro Dagostino: Opposed?
[9:17] Soro Dagostino: Motion carried.
[9:17] Soro Dagostino: Speakers?
[9:17] Soro Dagostino: Rose?
[9:18] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[9:18] Rose Springvale: no, i'm just a citizen, need to see what comes from the discussions
[9:18] Jamie Palisades: I expect so, yes
[9:18] Cindy Ecksol was wondering if we can get a review of where we're at
[9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:18] Soro Dagostino: We will get there.
[9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn would like to second Cindy's request too...
[9:18] Jamie Palisades raises eyebrow, looks to president officer, waits for agenda to unfold
[9:18] Soro Dagostino: Brian reports he wants a 7 day vote right.
[9:19] Pip Torok: so does Sonja (if she hasnt given it already)
[9:19] Jamie Palisades: ah soryr, walked in a bit late I gather. which item exactly are we on?
[9:19] Soro Dagostino: Next meeting is June 28th, 2009 at 0900
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with that date.
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Jamie: I d. and I e.)
[9:20] Cindy Ecksol requests 7 day vote
[9:20] Pip Torok: we agreed to move III1 to here
[9:20] Jamie Palisades: Ah. Thanks Pip. Shall I lead off?
[9:20] Soro Dagostino: The point of information is that the Constitution Amendment matter postponed from last week is first on the substantive agenda.
[9:20] Jamie Palisades: thx, let me know where we're there, sorry
[9:21] Soro Dagostino: The Proponent is first.
[9:21] Soro Dagostino: Pat?
[9:21] Patroklus Murakami: okay. i'll try to be brief
[9:21] Soro Dagostino: Please restate your motion.
[9:21] Patroklus Murakami: i can't access the forums right now so can't give u a url
[9:22] Soro Dagostino: Jamie -- can you provide that information?
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: but i move the proposed constitutional amendment i circulated at last week's meeting and posted on teh forums so we can debate the issue
[9:22] Patroklus Murakami: is that okay?
[9:22] Rose Springvale: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... a&start=15
[9:22] Soro Dagostino: That gets us started
[9:23] Jamie Palisades mutters - Pat's last draft is here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 405#p13403 and the others also appear in that thread
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: Has every one read this information?
[9:23] Jamie Palisades: jinx Rose
[9:23] Rose Springvale: smiles
[9:23] Cindy Ecksol nods
[9:23] Pip Torok: could use two minutes to review it ...
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: REcess is in order.
[9:23] Soro Dagostino: Please do.
[9:24] Soro Dagostino: We stand recessed for 5 min.
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, thank you
[9:25] Soro Dagostino: I hadn't noticed that Pat is invisible?
[9:26] Soro Dagostino: London must be trouble.
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: oh really? i'm visible to me!
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see him, Soro
[9:27] Jamie Palisades: Ladies & gentlemen, I put the last two drafts of which I am aware, Pat's and mine, on a notecard, for anyone not on the web.
[9:27] Jamie Palisades: You're clear as day to me also Pat
[9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Jamie! It's sometimes hard to follow on the forums what slight changes have been made here and there on each suggestion.
[9:28] Jamie Palisades: (can discuss briefly in due course)
[9:29] Jamie Palisades gave you AA enabling legislation, latest drafts.
[9:29] Soro Dagostino: Are you ready to reconvene?
[9:29] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[9:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh I think so... that notecard helped a lot, btw
[9:30] Soro Dagostino: Pip?
[9:30] Soro Dagostino: cindy?
[9:30] Pip Torok: just about <reading furiously>
[9:30] Cindy Ecksol: fine
[9:30] Soro Dagostino: kk
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[9:32] Soro Dagostino: Ok, lets get started.
[9:32] Soro Dagostino: Pat?
[9:32] Soro Dagostino: You are the proponent
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry guys. This is one of those cases where I have to chose between democracy and not making anyone angry Tough choices, voting against my conscience...
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: well, i've taken on board the feedback from a number of peope about earlier drafts
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: they were too long
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: they undid the agreement with AA
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: i agree that we should not try to change the terms of an agreement we have put to AA through constitutional amendments!
[9:33] Cindy Ecksol nods
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, at least I can agree with that too!
[9:34] Patroklus Murakami: so i have drafted a briefer version that essentially provides a framework for this merger and others
[9:34] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn will be next -- Pat would you continue
[9:34] Patroklus Murakami: based on what has actually happened
[9:34] Patroklus Murakami: the chancellor discussed the merger with AA on behalf of the CDS
[9:34] Patroklus Murakami: the RA approved an agreement
[9:34] Patroklus Murakami: this has the kinds of checks and balances we need to see between branches of govnt
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: i added in a role for the SC (which it kind of has anyway)
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: to validate the number of seats a new community gets in the RA post merger
[9:35] Jamie Palisades politely raises hand for queue, apparently after Gwyn
[9:35] Soro Dagostino: Noted Jamie
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: it would not be appropriate for that solely to be an RA decsion in my opinion
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: the SC oversees elections and it is good to have one branch check and balance another
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: that's all, happy to hear views
[9:36] Soro Dagostino: Thank you.
[9:37] Soro Dagostino: An amazing day -- she is speechless
[9:37] Cindy Ecksol:
[9:37] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[9:37] Cindy Ecksol: she's typing, soro
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, actually my problem is how to frame this without hurting anybody's feelings
[9:37] Jamie Palisades chuckles - Gwyn? typing
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and lol Cindy...
[9:37] Jamie Palisades: That's an issue in CDS?
[9:38] Jamie Palisades: Then maybe I can retire happy
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, Jamie.
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[9:38] Pip Torok: apres un peu de temps le deluge!
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But yes, I also think it's important
[9:38] Cindy Ecksol: lol!
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Pip
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully not!
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway —
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: one thing is to make sure that the amended constitution does NOT prevent the AA merger to happen because we changed the conditions.
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I think I have nothing against that. Seriously! I don't want to lose the merger because of haggling.
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The other thing is if we want a minimalistic change on the constitution (as Pat suggested) or a slightly larger version (as Jamie suggested)
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my mind, both are possible
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The last thing, however, is what nags at me, and which I cannot understand,
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: which is leaving the choice open to:
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) citizens with twice the votes
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) RA members getting "appointed", not elected
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) The CDS passing no judgement upon what "democracy" means; we have a good, working definition of what it means for the past 5 years
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: History sadly showed what these three points led to.
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And anything I'll say next will offend you,
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I remain silent
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and let Jamie continue
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[9:41] Soro Dagostino: jamie?
[9:41] Jamie Palisades: That's quite a negative pregnant, Gwyneth 5 years? I though that was a putsch in 2005? No? ah well.
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: Ok, thanks,. I have four points.
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4, then, if you prefer I'm not going to be picky
[9:42] Cindy Ecksol snickers
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: First an unqualified positive one.
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: First, to echo Sonja, who's not able to join us today: "One possible answer to these disputes might be to work toward an Amendment that would provide a general framework for mergers but not be so specific, allowing for more flexibility in individual situations. This could especially be true in the requirements we would have for the other communities and their sims. http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... d=a#p13381)
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: I agree, and this shorter version conforms to that view and I think we're on the right track here.
[9:42] Jamie Palisades: sceond
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: Second. I believe our constitution can - and should - support mergers, if the basic terms are fair and that it's utter sophistry and lollygagging to try and set it up for failure. as I posted in detail -- -- we should NOT go into a merger leaving some hiole for someone to argue that what we agreed to is unconstitutional.
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: It's rude, and bad planning.
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: So let's fix it.
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: For reasona I can decsribe if you like, i believ ethis meetign is your chance to do so.
[9:43] Jamie Palisades: Third - there are two substantive issues.
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: One is how AA selectes its transitional reps.
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: Pat's draft uses the word 'democracy' to let , well, someone, challange AA's sel;ection after the fact.
[9:44] Jamie Palisades: I disagree - that's folly and not the way to treat a merger of equals.
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: To quote SOnja again, She also made this one in the same post: "Of course we would want a merger to be popular, but I think this requirement might make it seem like the CDS would be controlling the person turning their sim(s) over to the CDS."
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: so I have suggested that language be changed (see notecard) to let SC review any action -- as it IS a CDS electio -- but to make it clear in the constitution ...
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: .. that any reasonable method consiste with the joinign estate's past practice is legal.
[9:45] Jamie Palisades: Fourth and final --
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: The Text pat most recently offered also changes the RA's approved deal.
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: (I am getting IMs, and soryr, cannot read just now)
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: The bill you passed includes a minimum of 2
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: and includes a method for hanlding dual citizens
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: a metod with does NOT double count
[9:46] Jamie Palisades: as it woudl exclude anu dual citizens who stand with AA from the next CDS poll
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: so , sorry, but fooey to those who suggest otherwise
[9:47] Jamie Palisades:
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: in cas eyo miss the significance of this to AA
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: there are a lot of dual citizens
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: owuld they not reaosnable want peopel in their camp to be able to choise their camp?
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: and\
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: whatever the emotional issues
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: the practical issue os that this is what the RA passed.
[9:47] Jamie Palisades: So
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: Atcion items
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: mr chairman, may i ask for a couple of points of clarification?
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: - i recommend you pass the amended version i offered on the notecard.
[9:48] Soro Dagostino: Hold for a moment Pat.
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: - I suggest we note SOnja;s questio on the forum about 2/3r s versus m,ajority vote, out of courtesy to her
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: - and i suggest we disuss why this is probably the last meetign at which you can act, before AA will either join us, or walk.
[9:48] Jamie Palisades: thank you
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: done, thx Soro
[9:49] Soro Dagostino: Your third point is a suggested amendment?
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: not at all. Just a suggestiong that we understand the calendar's effects on this legislation
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: can elaborate if and when desired
[9:49] Jamie Palisades: but the other two points are more important
[9:50] Soro Dagostino: Is there an amendment that can be moved?
[9:50] Soro Dagostino: Or are we to vote on the main motion?
[9:50] Jamie Palisades: I have offerd one in the notecardif someone wishes to do so
[9:50] Cindy Ecksol: I move jamie's note card to amend the proposal on th etable
[9:50] Jamie Palisades: but I don;t make motions here
[9:50] Soro Dagostino: I understand Jamie.
[9:50] Soro Dagostino: Is there a second?
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* (after Pat's clarifications)
[9:50] Pip Torok: second
[9:51] Soro Dagostino: Thank you Pip.
[9:51] Jamie Palisades: (It's the same as the last forum post at http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... =15#p13405 ) for the record
[9:51] Soro Dagostino: Gywn -- your next.
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat wanted to offer some clarifications...
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd prefer to have Pat first .9
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: i would like to seek a couple of clarifications
[9:52] Soro Dagostino: You are yielding the floor to pat?
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, *seek*. Yes, Soro, I am.
[9:52] Soro Dagostino: Pat.
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: firstly, i think that the AA residents are reasonable people so, if we hold a reasonable discussion here i can't see why the choices are 'decide or they walk'. why would the AA residents do that? it seems odd to me
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: jamie told us that there will be no double-counting
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: i'm really pleased to see that in writing
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: it was not clear to me at all, my reading of the agreement was that dual citizens would count twice
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: so some clarity on how they won't would be very welcome
[9:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn would like to second Pat's request too
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: secondly, can anyone tell us how AA intends to select its reps? i should have thought that this was something we could be told
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: and i think it is important to us as a democratic, self-governing community
[9:55] Soro Dagostino: I believe they did -- early on.
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: no one wants to dictate that elections should be held in the same way as ours
[9:55] Pip Torok: I understand it will be by their usual means of discussion and resolution ...
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: apologies soro. i must have missed that. could someone explain what 'usual means of discussion and resolution' means?
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: and, if elections have been rejected, why? secret ballots are a good thing! are they not?
[9:56] Pip Torok: it means informal 4-5 mmeber meeting where an agreement is arrived at
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: those were my questions for clarification
[9:57] Cindy Ecksol: pat, Pip and I can only speak of what has been the practice in AA
[9:57] Cindy Ecksol: we have never had "elected officials"
[9:57] Soro Dagostino: Heh! The same way we do it in the Factions.
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn totally seconds Pat's requests, and will only need to get the floor later unless the questions don't satisfy me
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *answers
[9:57] Cindy Ecksol: everything is resolved by consensus -- we talk about it, and eventually there's a consensus tha twe all can live with
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cindy, please define "consensus", so that it's clear for us.
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does it mean that all 31 AA citizens cast a vote by secret ballot?
[9:58] Cindy Ecksol: "consensus" means that we keep talkign until we have a solution that everyone interested can live with
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who is "we"?
[9:58] Cindy Ecksol: there are no ballots of any sort
[9:58] Soro Dagostino: Town meeting.
[9:58] Cindy Ecksol: anyone who is interested shows up for the regualr meetings
[9:58] Soro Dagostino: New England style.
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so adhocracy, like the guild, but instead of voting, everybody has to agree?
[9:58] Cindy Ecksol: all citizens who show up, vote
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right.

(continued in next reply)

[Cindy Ecksol]

(continued from previous post)

[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Vote, or agree with?
[9:58] Cindy Ecksol: or at least have a say
[9:59] Cindy Ecksol: it's very civilized, actually
[9:59] Cindy Ecksol: and we're willing to give all that up to join CDS!
[9:59] Pip Torok: unstructure? possiblt but Gwym ... it works!
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pip, I'm not questioning if it works or not ))
[9:59] Jamie Palisades smiles, raises hands to offer some possible answers to Pat, waits
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A lot of models work
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I'm happy to hear Jamie too, so I'll hush
[9:59] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: thx'
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: If I may offer some answers to Pat. I have tried to approach this like a corporate lawyer -- oddly enough, that being my career -- structure a deal that's attractive to both, and legal, and then do a deal in good faith. So I often try to look at this from AA's side as well.
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: With that in mind.
[10:00] Jamie Palisades: (1) Pat asks about double counting. I believe we will need to do approximately as he said in one of his drafts -- let any dual citizen who elects AA count for AA but NOT vote in the next CDS election for RA.
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: I think that's the inevitable outcoemn of the adpopted bill, taken together with our constitution's prexisting rules
[10:01] Soro Dagostino: Attribution?
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: ... which i believe would drequire the avoidance of any obvious doublecounting
[10:01] Jamie Palisades: soro that was in one of his earlier drafts, where he thought it wise to drop all that detail into the constitution
[10:02] Jamie Palisades: but we agree conmpletely on the principle
[10:02] Jamie Palisades: (2) Pat asks about AA "walking." My words, not from anyone in AA. It is my view.. and only mine ...
[10:02] Jamie Palisades: , that if I were them, and we did a deal with them (see the approved bill) ... but then later by our legislative record made it clear we were going to try and undo it in the SC ... well, I'd not consummate the deal with a bunch of, ah, promise-breakers. Period.
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: that's the basic point of my forum post yesterday
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: finally
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: i just respectfulyl disagree with the idea that Gwyn and Pat have that we should interrogate AA as to its method of initial selection
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ^^
[10:03] Pip Torok agrees with Jamie
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: if we think they're muslim dictators or autocrats, p[ease move to undo the eeal not tell them how to trun their transition
[10:03] Jamie Palisades: as sonja said
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: ask=/=interrogate
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: we don;t win by telling them how to do their thing
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: and
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: the SC COULD, under the amendment on the table ..
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: UNDO
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: an unfair unreasonable approach
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: but tellign them exactly how to proceed? Infantile and naive, sorry
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: this is a merger
[10:04] Jamie Palisades: not a fire sale
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: asking, not telling
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just asking, Jamie
[10:05] Jamie Palisades: sorry, but i don;t think some of us quite understand how offensive that point is to AA
[10:05] Soro Dagostino: Gavel on the podium
[10:05] Jamie Palisades: done, thanks
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand*
[10:05] Soro Dagostino: Before the body is the amendment.
[10:05] Soro Dagostino: Are you ready for that question?
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No.
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to speak agianst the amendment so no
[10:06] Soro Dagostino: noted.
[10:06] Soro Dagostino: I thought you had Pat?
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: no, not against jamie's amendment as moved by cindy
[10:06] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn, you to.
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: He asked questions...
[10:06] Jamie Palisades: (I would like to reserve a chance after wards to talk about sonja;s issue, and the timing of this act if it passes)
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: Noted
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: Pat -- you may proceed.
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: ty to jamie for clarifying
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: i am relaxed on the double counting issue and, on the method by which AA selects its reps, i don't plan to die in ditch!
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: i think that jamie's amendment adds too much to the constitution tho in terms of detail that should be in a merger agreement
[10:09] Jamie Palisades: uh oh - don;t know that colloquialism. Don't die, Pat, we just got you BACK
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: the intention of my revised amendment was to strip all that out
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: (i won't stand on principle about it)
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: and give more discretion to the chancellor to make a deal that works
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: and seek RA approval
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: so i am opposed to the amendment, that's all
[10:10] Jamie Palisades smiles, raises hand after gwyn
[10:11] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn?
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although I'm usually for having good frameworks,
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I understand that each merger case will be quite different from the next,
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and we cannot really predict what will come next... so,
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: under that assumption,
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I prefer, like on Pat's "minimalistic" amendment proposal,
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to give the Chancellor a wider margin of negotiation.
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In particular, as you have noticed,
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm quite sensitive on any subversive strategies of pushing "appointed" people into the RA, no matter how "nice" they are.
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We still haven't amended the Constitution Art I - 1 "The Representative Assembly (RA) is a body of democratically elected factions which represent different ideological views of its citizens."
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I propose that we restrain outselves to load the constitution with an amendment,
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that can, in a certain light, void that fundamental principle.
[10:14] Soro Dagostino: Is that a proposed amendment to the current motion?
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat's much smaller amendment doesn't make any "special requirements" and gives the Chancellor a free hand in negotiating,
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or a new motion, Soro. I'm fine in voting both.
[10:14] Soro Dagostino: Are you making a new motion?
[10:14] Soro Dagostino: Please so state?
[10:15] Jamie Palisades: (I think not, "Pat's smaller amendment" was the original Pat mpotion here)
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes. I propose that we vote on Pat's "shorter amendment" as per the notecard distributed byJamie earlier
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No
[10:15] Cindy Ecksol: there's a motion on the table to amend that we need to vote on first
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
Add at end of Article I, Section 1 (The Representative Assembly): "The RA approves merger agreements with other communities."
Add at end of Article II, Section 2 (c) (Powers of The Chancellor): "and to enter into merger discussions with other communities"
Insert after first paragraph, Article III, Section 8 (Powers of the SC): "The SC approves the number of interim additional RA seats for a community joining the CDS using the formula in Article I, Section 2."
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (to be clear )
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: i think we need to vote on the amendment first?
[10:15] Soro Dagostino: I do to.
[10:16] Soro Dagostino: Call the question?
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not finished... hehe
[10:16] Jamie Palisades: (sorry, i THINK the choice is between Pat's original motion here, in favor of which G and P are speaking, and the amendment to it moved by Pip, aginst which G and P speak)
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll call the question
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... when finished...
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is that ok?
[10:16] Jamie Palisades smiles, shrugs, is in queue, but it's up to the body
[10:16] Soro Dagostino: I asked if you had a new motion?
[10:16] Cindy Ecksol thinks perhaps gwyn is overtime?
[10:17] Soro Dagostino: Or are in statements against the current question on the floor
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh gosh. Not again! I wouldn't be if you'd keep interupting
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Come on guys.
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's mostly unfair.
[10:18] Soro Dagostino: The question is before you.
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I feel that I'm in a minority here defending a representative democracy Am I not allowed a last stand before the deluge?
[10:18] Jamie Palisades: (fwiw, she's speaking against the current motion to amend, Mr. LRA, seems entirely appropriate to me even if we disagree )
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Having two options to select for an amendment, I'm just suggesting one that at least still preserves some hope that we remain a representative democracy in the furture...
[10:19] Soro Dagostino: I understand.
[10:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A point here which I *have* to make...
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the future, we will have more opportunities for mergers.
[10:20] Soro Dagostino: You can finsih quickly?
[10:20] Soro Dagostino: Your time is up.
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the future, I will hope that the conditions are set equally to both sides.
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the future, I will certainly, as a citizen of the CDS and a member of the RA;
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to be fully allowed
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to inspect, question, ask, and interrogate,
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anything I wish on any other community that wishes to merge with us;
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I fully expect that community to do the same to us.
[10:21] Jamie Palisades: (Are we watching the clock, senators?)
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: hear, hear
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the future, I don't want to be told "you have no right to ask"
[10:21] Soro Dagostino: Your time is up.
[10:21] Soro Dagostino: The question is called.
[10:21] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[10:21] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[10:21] Pip Torok: aye
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: nay
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In the future, I don't wish to blindly go ahead with having a Samocles' sword on top of my head, preventing me to ask questions.
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nay
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: A tie.
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: Chair votes aye
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: Motion carried.
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: Now for the main question, as modified.
[10:22] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can we have the "main question as modified" again, just for the record? (notecards don't get in the transcript otherwise)
[10:23] Pip Torok agrees
[10:23] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[10:23] Cindy Ecksol: <incomplete copy of bill removed since Jamie inserted link to forum below>
[10:24] Jamie Palisades: hm - ah there we go, second half of card
[10:24] Cindy Ecksol: drat....
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: last bit is missing
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just the second half, right?
[10:24] Cindy Ecksol: did I get it all?
[10:24] Jamie Palisades: may I just say again for the record, the text is here - http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... =15#p13405
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: no
[10:25] Cindy Ecksol: ah, better idea...
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That works better, Jamie
[10:25] Cindy Ecksol: link to the forum will make it to the transcript
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[10:25] Soro Dagostino: We have the motion.
[10:25] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[10:25] Cindy Ecksol: aye
[10:25] Soro Dagostino: Pip?
[10:26] Pip Torok: aye
[10:26] Soro Dagostino: All opposed?
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nay
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: nay
[10:26] Soro Dagostino: Tie vote. Chair votes Aye
[10:26] Soro Dagostino: Motion carried.
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: May I confirm, as a point of honor, Mr LRA, whether as a consitutional amendment this will require five votes to pass, and thus depends on the 7 day votes from Brian and Sonja?
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh how? It's a constitutional amendment...
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Thank you all.
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: hmm. not quite...
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: needs 5/7 to pass
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie's point is correct.
[10:27] Jamie Palisades: Gywn you agree with me on that, yes? anyone disagree?
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Totally agree, Jamie.
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Ah -- a consensus
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
[10:28] Jamie Palisades waits to hear other views, raises hand on the timing issue
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, we need Brian & Sonja to vote.
[10:28] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: thanks
[10:28] Cindy Ecksol: so final status deferred
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: yes
[10:28] Jamie Palisades: my point exactly - if i may
[10:28] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: 1. there is no agreement wether the bill is needed to make the AA legslation conform to the constitutuion
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: some thins do
[10:29] Jamie Palisades: and I see our SC is merrily plannig to meet tomorrow,
[10:29] Patroklus Murakami: do we know what is on the SC agenda?
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: but wehave not been informed yet of a challenge, smile, so if they use due process, perhaps that;'s not why
[10:30] Pip Torok cd make a guess!
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: oh of course not the star cha,ber - sorry SC - doesn;t work that way apparently
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: but
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: anyway
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: here's the thing on timing
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: a week from today
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: at latest
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: we will have the vote
[10:30] Jamie Palisades: (giving B and S their full 7 days)
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: we could have the vote as early as tomorrow...
[10:31] Jamie Palisades: that's the 21st
[10:31] Jamie Palisades: on the 25th
[10:31] Jamie Palisades: which is dthe day before CDS RA filings open
[10:31] Jamie Palisades: AA will as a prctical matter need to decide whether to consummate the deal with us
[10:31] Jamie Palisades: and for reasons I woulc explain but feel surpfluous here
[10:31] Jamie Palisades: i expect they'd declien if this does not pass
[10:32] Jamie Palisades: so that's wher ewe are. Thanks
[10:32] Jamie Palisades: *superfluous
[10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand*
[10:32] Jamie Palisades: done Soro, just wanted to point out the "ticking clock" issue
[10:33] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks. I wouldn't be so dramatic, Jamie
[10:33] Cindy Ecksol: I must fly to RL, all. will be interested to read the rest of the transcript
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (bye CIndy)
[10:33] Jamie Palisades chuckles, re-reads your last postings. Oh?
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The bill for the merger with AA *was* passed
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: bye cindy
[10:33] Pip Torok: bye!
[10:33] Soro Dagostino: Bye C.
[10:34] Cindy Ecksol: just for backup I'm going to leave my av here until it times out...
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The constititional amendment, if it's NOT passed, will NOT influence the AA merger bill
[10:34] Jamie Palisades smiles, raises hand
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Granted, the SC might have a saying tomorrow —but only on the constititional amendment,
[10:34] Soro Dagostino: Your next Jamie.
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the bill itself was not declared void by the SC, so it stands.
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's all.
[10:34] Soro Dagostino: Jamie?
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: excellent point on the SC's deadline for attacking the bill, thanks, Gwyn.
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: All here may not be aware, as former SC Deans and LRA s are, that they have a limited time to undo legislation
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: however
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: they can undo actions
[10:35] Jamie Palisades: like say
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: an AA seletion that someone does not think is enough like CDS's
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: unless of course the bill now pending keeps them from doign so
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: finally
[10:36] Jamie Palisades: i respectfulyl disagree with Gwyn's suggetsion that she is being shut up or railroaded ... since a suggestion has been made that we are railroading the hon. senator, may I mention that she has had weeks, nay, months to raise her points, ... this is hardly the first time .. we have had many meetings, and the forums are full of the views of her factions and others. No new questions were raised today, and filibusters using old points are unbecoming. So I respectfully disagree that there's unfairness here in the RA' actions. Let all those who support and oppose this be honest on the record about their intents Thank you
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas, Jamie, some of us have time to write on the forums, others have time to attend RA meetings. That's all.
[10:37] Soro Dagostino: thank you both for your views.
[10:37] Soro Dagostino: Returning to the Agenda
[10:38] Soro Dagostino: Chancellor's report.
[10:38] Jamie Palisades chuckles. May I also say that Pat's drafting here, even though we disagree on some points, has been helpful and constructive throughout. Glad to have you back, sir.
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: short report
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: we bought the Monastery sim
[10:38] Patroklus Murakami: ty jamie much appreciated
[10:38] Jamie Palisades: we're almost sold out of CDS land
[10:38] Pip Torok feels his day is made ...
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: superb news
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very, very good news!
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: so the small monastery plots will help fill new needs
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: AA, should we be allowed by Brian and SOnja;s votes to proceed, ALSO is now almost sold out
[10:39] Jamie Palisades: so wow
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: probably whoever is chancellor next term will come back to you for abnother sim before year end
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: and
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: we are still solvent
[10:40] Jamie Palisades: cheers -- mor of a report next time on events, which also has been a busy successful area
[10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn claps
[10:40] Soro Dagostino: YAY!
[10:40] Patroklus Murakami applauds
[10:41] Jamie Palisades: (Cindy is applauing in her mind, I am sure)
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, any idea when LL is placing that sim on the map?
[10:41] Soro Dagostino: Item V on the Agenda . . . is there a proponent here
[10:41] Pip Torok wonders whether "Now we are five" is appropriate
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Pip
[10:42] Soro Dagostino: Claude was online.
[10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Who from the SC will make the presentation? (yes, I saw him online a while ago...)
[10:42] Soro Dagostino: May I have a motion to postpone?
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me just see if he's on Gtalk...
[10:43] Pip Torok: motion to postpone
[10:43] Soro Dagostino: Second?
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami: seconded
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (no, he isn't) — so I'll second Pip's motion
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:43] Soro Dagostino: thank you.
[10:43] Soro Dagostino: Non-debateable
[10:43] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[10:44] Pip Torok: aye
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[10:44] Soro Dagostino: Carried
[10:44] Soro Dagostino: Any other business to come before us?
[10:44] Rose Springvale: can i make announcments?
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: (I hope all of you have noticed the events placard rezzed in front of you)
[10:44] Soro Dagostino: Yes -- this is the time
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: please ?
[10:45] Rose Springvale: okay, next saturday CDS kicks of GRand Tour iii
[10:45] Rose Springvale: here is the schedule.. notecard inside with details
[10:45] Rose Springvale: It woudl be really great if you all could put in apprearances... we get LOTS of interest from this
[10:46] Rose Springvale: Also, we've had our first Oktoberfest meeting, so if you have input on those events, PLEASE let me know
[10:46] Jamie Palisades: (Has been a big recruiting tool for us in the past -- our last run on this was the ski slope event if you recall)

(continued in next reply)

[Cindy Ecksol]

(continued from previous reply)

[10:46] Rose Springvale: whoever is in charge of events next term wont' have long to work on it after 8/1
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: cool
[10:46] Rose Springvale: Also, though he didn't mention and i'll get in trouble
[10:46] Soro Dagostino: Great work!
[10:47] Rose Springvale: our chancellor has secured a prime exhibit space for SL6B
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh that's excellent news!!
[10:47] Jamie Palisades: And everyone please go to the ROMA stop and tell Torin to merge with us, grin
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we might, Jamie, we might!)
[10:47] Rose Springvale: And we've put kiosks up in Caledons Oxbridge Village Gateway, with info for both CDS and AA
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rose, do you wish any suggestions for events to be held on the SL6B spot?
[10:48] Rose Springvale: if you have ideas for events, send them to me
[10:48] Soro Dagostino: May we adjourn before we go into this?
[10:48] Jamie Palisades: um gwyn we have specifically been asked to do displays and NOT big crowd draw live events
[10:48] Rose Springvale: thanks soro
[10:48] Jamie Palisades: not us - everyone - they have a big ol music program already
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww such a pity, Jamie. But alas. The Linden Will Shall Be Done.
[10:48] Rose Springvale: but WE always need event ideas L)
[10:48] Soro Dagostino: Is there a motion to adjourn?
[10:48] Rose Springvale:
[10:48] Pip Torok: Amen!
[10:48] Jamie Palisades: (oops sorry waiting for adjournment)
[10:49] Pip Torok: motion to adjourn
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds
[10:49] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[10:49] Pip Torok: aye
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[10:49] Soro Dagostino: Done! Thank you all.