Here is yesterday's transcript from my Chat Log of the RA Meeting. May we please get a recorder that works and is always there for the RA Meetings?
RA Meeting Transcript 06/28/2009
[2009/06/28 9:03] Pip Torok: I consent to be recorded
[2009/06/28 9:03] Soro Dagostino: He is near.
[2009/06/28 9:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see him coming...
[2009/06/28 9:03] Patroklus Murakami: hi sonja 
[2009/06/28 9:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes.., I consent to be recorded as well...
[2009/06/28 9:03] Patroklus Murakami: i consent to be recorded too
[2009/06/28 9:04] Sonja Strom: I consent to be recorded
[2009/06/28 9:04] Soro Dagostino: No recorder -- so the chat log will be our record.
[2009/06/28 9:04] Soro Dagostino: So please state your consent to recordation.
[2009/06/28 9:04] Chat Range: Jamie Palisades [13m]
[2009/06/28 9:04] Soro Dagostino: I consent.
[2009/06/28 9:04] Patroklus Murakami: consent
[2009/06/28 9:05] Patroklus Murakami: hi jamie
[2009/06/28 9:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just did... lol
[2009/06/28 9:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hello, Jamie!
[2009/06/28 9:05] Jamie Palisades: Cheers working my way up through hotel internet lag - and i consent 
[2009/06/28 9:06] Soro Dagostino: Cindy and Brian are 7 day votes. They are not to be here.
[2009/06/28 9:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn hopes it's a vacation hotel and not a business trip :=
[2009/06/28 9:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Soro
[2009/06/28 9:06] Soro Dagostino: Are there changes to the Agenda?
[2009/06/28 9:07] Patroklus Murakami: none from me
[2009/06/28 9:07] Pip Torok: nor me
[2009/06/28 9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No... none from me either...
[2009/06/28 9:08] Soro Dagostino: Sonja?
[2009/06/28 9:08] Sonja Strom: no
[2009/06/28 9:09] Soro Dagostino: Are there any speakers who wish to be heard?
[2009/06/28 9:09] Jamie Palisades: I;m on the proposed anti-AA constitutional amendment, Soro, please
[2009/06/28 9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn hopes at least to hear Jamie
[2009/06/28 9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "anti-AA"?
[2009/06/28 9:09] Jamie Palisades: count on it
[2009/06/28 9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn missed that on the agenda...
[2009/06/28 9:09] Soro Dagostino: For the record, no visitors except the Chancellor.
[2009/06/28 9:10] Patroklus Murakami: anti-AA?
[2009/06/28 9:10] Patroklus Murakami: election campaign started early i see
[2009/06/28 9:10] Soro Dagostino: The next meeting is Sunday, July 5th.
[2009/06/28 9:10] Taku Raymaker is Offline
[2009/06/28 9:10] Soro Dagostino: At 0900
[2009/06/28 9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, next week?
[2009/06/28 9:11] Soro Dagostino: Ooops, you are right .
[2009/06/28 9:11] Pip Torok: lol
[2009/06/28 9:11] Taku Raymaker is Online
[2009/06/28 9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I'm fine myself, Soro!
[2009/06/28 9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really... I was just checking... if everybody else agrees, I'm fine
[2009/06/28 9:12] Pip Torok: I move to postpone the meeting for a week
[2009/06/28 9:12] Soro Dagostino: That would be the 12th of July.
[2009/06/28 9:12] Patroklus Murakami: i can make it, but some n american colleagues may have other plans
[2009/06/28 9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine either way
[2009/06/28 9:13] Soro Dagostino: So its a consensus?
[2009/06/28 9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure
[2009/06/28 9:13] Sonja Strom: I can be at either, or both.
[2009/06/28 9:13] Soro Dagostino: July 12?
[2009/06/28 9:13] Patroklus Murakami: july 12 is fine by me
[2009/06/28 9:13] Sonja Strom: Fine for me.
[2009/06/28 9:13] Pip Torok: both are fine by me
[2009/06/28 9:13] Soro Dagostino: I'll reset it until that date.
[2009/06/28 9:14] Soro Dagostino: Chancellor's Report.
[2009/06/28 9:14] Soro Dagostino: Jamie -- you have the floor.
[2009/06/28 9:14] Jamie Palisades: I'm up?
[2009/06/28 9:14] Jamie Palisades: OK
[2009/06/28 9:14] Jamie Palisades: Briefly, as you can see out the window, we have a Monastery sim
[2009/06/28 9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes!!!
[2009/06/28 9:14] Sonja Strom: Yay!
[2009/06/28 9:14] Long Range: CLEOPATRA Xigalia [44m]
[2009/06/28 9:14] Jamie Palisades: I'm delighted, and Arria and Ulysee are working away at it
[2009/06/28 9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No more gaps! haha
[2009/06/28 9:14] Soro Dagostino: Very pretty.
[2009/06/28 9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[2009/06/28 9:15] Jamie Palisades: also, with most of CDS sold, and even AA if that deal closes, we can use the six new lots
[2009/06/28 9:15] Jamie Palisades: We will also have a small number of new lots coming on line from the "old" Monastery space
[2009/06/28 9:15] Pip Torok: (dont forget the new AM ones)
[2009/06/28 9:16] Jamie Palisades: which the guild has already re-plotted for us
[2009/06/28 9:16] Jamie Palisades: and
[2009/06/28 9:16] Jamie Palisades: by the way
[2009/06/28 9:16] Jamie Palisades: we will need to grapple with the risk tha we still have no room for new landlowers, if some of our karger existing land owners snap up all the lots ... again
[2009/06/28 9:16] Close Range: CLEOPATRA Xigalia [33m]
[2009/06/28 9:16] Chat Range: CLEOPATRA Xigalia [14m]
[2009/06/28 9:17] Jamie Palisades: i am looking into what we can legally do about this ... and may have more to report to this august body
[2009/06/28 9:17] Soro Dagostino: Welcome Cleo
[2009/06/28 9:17] Sonja Strom: Hi Cleopatra
[2009/06/28 9:17] Soro Dagostino: Join us.
[2009/06/28 9:17] Patroklus Murakami: hi cleopatra, welcome
[2009/06/28 9:18] Jamie Palisades: Cleopatra., by the way, recenyl joined us opening a toga store, though she's seeing low traffic and having second thoughts
[2009/06/28 9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aww
[2009/06/28 9:18] Jamie Palisades: anyway, back to my report
[2009/06/28 9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So sorry to hear that! I was at Cleo's toga shop the other day. (and sorry)
[2009/06/28 9:18] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: This is true.
[2009/06/28 9:18] Jamie Palisades: the sole bad news really, on land, is that the old Emporia Romani space which we asked
[2009/06/28 9:18] Jamie Palisades: ... some guild members to refurbish ...
[2009/06/28 9:18] Long Range: Danton Sideways [78m]
[2009/06/28 9:19] Jamie Palisades: .. was never completed, so I expect either to have that completed or reassign it by the next time we meet here.
[2009/06/28 9:19] Jamie Palisades: OK, hmm
[2009/06/28 9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 
[2009/06/28 9:19] Long Range: Naftali Torok [44m]
[2009/06/28 9:19] Chat Range: Ceasar Xigalia [10m]
[2009/06/28 9:19] Jamie Palisades: Very successful Grand Tour, we were the most popular stop
[2009/06/28 9:19] Jamie Palisades: see the Forum events posting
[2009/06/28 9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: woot
[2009/06/28 9:19] Close Range: Naftali Torok [34m]
[2009/06/28 9:19] Jamie Palisades: and thanks to those of you who show up to help us host it matters
[2009/06/28 9:19] Jamie Palisades: and
[2009/06/28 9:20] Chat Range: Naftali Torok [13m]
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: CDS is again exhibiting at SL6B
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: I will also post that in events
[2009/06/28 9:20] Sonja Strom: Super
[2009/06/28 9:20] Patroklus Murakami: superb news
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: fun display on the future of SL .. and CDS
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: of course, it mentions AA, so depending onm what you do today, I may have to go amend it
[2009/06/28 9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hah
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: but there's also other fun stuff
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: and
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: by the way
[2009/06/28 9:20] Jamie Palisades: a robochancellor
[2009/06/28 9:21] Pip Torok: ??
[2009/06/28 9:21] Jamie Palisades: so do go look, if only to see MY ultimate replacement
[2009/06/28 9:21] Patroklus Murakami: i must see that!
[2009/06/28 9:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn *coughs* riiiiight
[2009/06/28 9:21] Jamie Palisades: I will get the SLURL and paste it in chat here, shortly
[2009/06/28 9:21] Sonja Strom: at SL6B?
[2009/06/28 9:22] Jamie Palisades: it talks less than me, Gwyn, some say that's a significant upgrade
[2009/06/28 9:22] Sonja Strom: lol
[2009/06/28 9:22] Jamie Palisades: yes, sonja, SLURL to cone shortly
[2009/06/28 9:22] Jamie Palisades: OK
[2009/06/28 9:22] Jamie Palisades: last item of note
[2009/06/28 9:22] Jamie Palisades: AA merger transaction
[2009/06/28 9:23] Jamie Palisades: assuming the legal environment for it does not deteriorate
[2009/06/28 9:23] Jamie Palisades: such that they choose not to close
[2009/06/28 9:23] Long Range: Delia Lake [58m]
[2009/06/28 9:23] Jamie Palisades: we'd looked at the options and decided it;s much lessy messy to close post-CDS-RA -election dealdine
[2009/06/28 9:23] Jamie Palisades: so they will come on line to CDS, oif they do, between 7 and 16 July
[2009/06/28 9:23] Jamie Palisades: as a practical matter
[2009/06/28 9:23] Jamie Palisades: the steps include
[2009/06/28 9:24] Close Range: Delia Lake [38m]
[2009/06/28 9:24] Jamie Palisades: - their voter rolls being assded to ours, by notification to Treasurer and SC
[2009/06/28 9:24] Jamie Palisades: *added
[2009/06/28 9:24] Chat Range: Delia Lake [12m]
[2009/06/28 9:24] Jamie Palisades: - CDS starts collecting rents from their HIPPO system
[2009/06/28 9:24] Jamie Palisades: (thus we are spared the need for a separate HIPPO test )
[2009/06/28 9:24] Jamie Palisades: - we pay their tier
[2009/06/28 9:25] Jamie Palisades: - and, as to their four "void" estates, whihc conme due to LL in the fal, we sort out whether we need to go to some kind of payment other than monthy
[2009/06/28 9:25] Jamie Palisades: *monthly
[2009/06/28 9:25] Jamie Palisades: (as the "credit risks" to CDS are s omewhate different for big chunks like that)_
[2009/06/28 9:26] Patroklus Murakami: i have a quick comment to make on timing and impact on the size of the RA when you are ready soro
[2009/06/28 9:26] Jamie Palisades: There are a bunch of little thikngs with land groups and the like too, which i will write about on the forums but probably ar enot woirth agenda time here
[2009/06/28 9:26] Jamie Palisades: thanks
[2009/06/28 9:26] Jamie Palisades: I'm done
[2009/06/28 9:26] Jamie Palisades: (Hi Delia)
[2009/06/28 9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks for the report! Soro, I might also have one question for the Chancellor, if possible (after Pat)
[2009/06/28 9:26] Soro Dagostino: Lets welcome Delia Naftali and Ceaser
[2009/06/28 9:27] Ceasar Xigalia: hi
[2009/06/28 9:27] Naftali Torok: finally rezzed as well
[2009/06/28 9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Delia, Naf, and Ceasar!)
[2009/06/28 9:27] Naftali Torok: hello all
[2009/06/28 9:27] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: hail ceasar!
[2009/06/28 9:27] Patroklus Murakami: hi all
[2009/06/28 9:27] Jamie Palisades: heh hail indeed
[2009/06/28 9:27] Delia Lake: hi everyone
[2009/06/28 9:27] Delia's translator: Hola a todos:)
[2009/06/28 9:27] Soro Dagostino: Quesstions for Jamie
[2009/06/28 9:27] Sonja Strom: Hola Delia
[2009/06/28 9:27] Soro Dagostino: Pat?
[2009/06/28 9:28] Patroklus Murakami: yes. i remember that in previous elections we have not known what teh size of teh RA woudl be until polling day
[2009/06/28 9:28] Patroklus Murakami: that's because our rather odd electoral system defines it as 10% of citizens rounded down
[2009/06/28 9:29] Patroklus Murakami: and the cut off point has previously been the start of the election polling
[2009/06/28 9:29] Patroklus Murakami: i wondered if that had been factored in to considerations?
[2009/06/28 9:29] Patroklus Murakami: presumably, if 30 odd new citizens join us just before polling
[2009/06/28 9:29] Patroklus Murakami: we might end up with a 10 member RA but with only 70 of us entitled to vote
[2009/06/28 9:30] Patroklus Murakami: has this been considered?
[2009/06/28 9:30] Soro Dagostino: Pat - I think that is not in order
[2009/06/28 9:30] Soro Dagostino: It is a later item on the agenda.
[2009/06/28 9:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Odd new citizens?
[2009/06/28 9:30] Patroklus Murakami: sorry soro, why not?
[2009/06/28 9:30] Patroklus Murakami: 30 odd = 30 something
[2009/06/28 9:30] Jamie Palisades: soro, up to you but I am happy to offer an answer if you like
[2009/06/28 9:30] Soro Dagostino: Your proposal is up for discussion.
[2009/06/28 9:31] Soro Dagostino: Ok, you may.
[2009/06/28 9:31] Jamie Palisades: i take pat;s question as about what happens if no bill is passed
[2009/06/28 9:31] Jamie Palisades: so relevant now
[2009/06/28 9:31] Jamie Palisades: and here is my view on the answer, FWIW
[2009/06/28 9:31] Jamie Palisades: we have a constitutionally beyond attack bill approving the merger terms
[2009/06/28 9:31] Jamie Palisades: and we have a constitution
[2009/06/28 9:32] Jamie Palisades: and must obey both
[2009/06/28 9:32] Jamie Palisades: so wherever the bill does not speak we're guided by the constitution filling in gaps
[2009/06/28 9:32] Jamie Palisades: in this case
[2009/06/28 9:33] Jamie Palisades: it woudl be (I thikn) a constitutional problem to give some citizens a doubel vote, so to speak
[2009/06/28 9:33] Jamie Palisades: so necessarily
[2009/06/28 9:33] Jamie Palisades: any of the "new AA" citizens of CDS
[2009/06/28 9:33] Jamie Palisades: who will get their own reps in the one time temporary appointment to come, per the adopted legislation
[2009/06/28 9:33] Jamie Palisades: can't also be voters in the upcoming (imminent) CDS RA election
[2009/06/28 9:34] Jamie Palisades: note - we can force that outcome just by timing the date of the merger too
[2009/06/28 9:34] Jamie Palisades: other possible steps might better be disvcussed under the agehnda item for Pat's latest bill
[2009/06/28 9:34] Jamie Palisades: done thx
[2009/06/28 9:35] Patroklus Murakami: ty jamie
[2009/06/28 9:36] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn -- I believe you were next.
[2009/06/28 9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[2009/06/28 9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, you mentioned a "change of tier payments to LL", e.g. not doing it monthly
[2009/06/28 9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Do you refer to the way LL deals with not-for-profits paying tier, which is billed for 6 months?
[2009/06/28 9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If so, I believe that we should change our funding legislation, which requires the Treasury to have funds for 3 months of payment
[2009/06/28 9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... to have at least 6
[2009/06/28 9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's all, thank you
[2009/06/28 9:38] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn, yes, and CDS has not yet before dealt with the questioon of whether we want to "front" pay 6 months at a time for a void -- so the Q comes up whether we bill those tenants monthly. To be explored, that's all.
[2009/06/28 9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, so it's also a question on how citizens are billed... I see
[2009/06/28 9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmh — I suggest we put that on the agenda for the next RA meeting, then, and discuss it on the forums
[2009/06/28 9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it's definitely worth discussing it!)
[2009/06/28 9:40] Chat Range: Danton Sideways [10m]
[2009/06/28 9:40] Delia Lake: hi Danton
[2009/06/28 9:40] Soro Dagostino: Hello Danton, Welcome
[2009/06/28 9:40] Patroklus Murakami: hi danton
[2009/06/28 9:40] Pip Torok: hi Danton!!
[2009/06/28 9:40] Jamie Palisades nods at Gwyn. Hi Danton
[2009/06/28 9:40] Naftali Torok: helo dant
[2009/06/28 9:40] Danton Sideways: Hi everybody, just dropped in for a bit
[2009/06/28 9:40] Danton Sideways: I consent to be recorded
[2009/06/28 9:40] Ceasar Xigalia: bye all
[2009/06/28 9:40] Pip Torok: bye caesar
[2009/06/28 9:41] Delia Lake: and I also consent to be recorded (forgot that)
[2009/06/28 9:41] Soro Dagostino: Any more Questions for Jamie?
[2009/06/28 9:42] Patroklus Murakami: none from me
[2009/06/28 9:42] Soro Dagostino: Moveing to Item III 1 on the agenda.
[2009/06/28 9:42] Soro Dagostino: The Constitutional Amendment.
[2009/06/28 9:43] Patroklus Murakami: i would like to move we discuss the constitutional amendment
[2009/06/28 9:43] Soro Dagostino: Which I believe to be amended.
[2009/06/28 9:43] Jamie Palisades: can we get a forum URL or a text?
[2009/06/28 9:43] Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... =30#p13449
[2009/06/28 9:43] Jamie Palisades: thx
[2009/06/28 9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Jamie's request 
[2009/06/28 9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[2009/06/28 9:43] Soro Dagostino: It was postponed from the prior session.
[2009/06/28 9:44] Patroklus Murakami: PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
Add at end of Article I, Section 1 (The Representative Assembly): "The RA approves merger agreements with other communities."
Add at end of Article I, Section 2 (The Representative Assembly Body): "The RA may be supplemented with interim additional representatives, freely chosen by a community joining the CDS."
Add at end of Article II, Section 2 (c) (Powers of The Chancellor): "and to enter into merger discussions with other communities"
[2009/06/28 9:44] Patroklus Murakami: soro, i'm not aware of any amendment of my amendment! what were you referring to?
[2009/06/28 9:44] Soro Dagostino: Pat --you said it was a chnge in the forum.
[2009/06/28 9:45] Patroklus Murakami: apologies. indeed, this is a new amendment given that the other one failed
[2009/06/28 9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[2009/06/28 9:45] Patroklus Murakami: shall i introduce it now?
[2009/06/28 9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn would like to have Pat introduce it too, if possible.
[2009/06/28 9:45] Soro Dagostino: It is that time.
[2009/06/28 9:46] Patroklus Murakami: okay, well this constitutional amendment is a very minimal affair
[2009/06/28 9:46] Jamie Palisades: the "other one" being the 7 day one that SOnja and CSDF voted down?> just checking
[2009/06/28 9:46] Jamie Palisades: (sorry)
[2009/06/28 9:46] Patroklus Murakami: it is intended to enable the merger with al andalus to proceed smoothly and ensure the AA reps can join the RA
[2009/06/28 9:47] Soro Dagostino: Please state the motion
[2009/06/28 9:47] Patroklus Murakami: it also provides for a very minimal framework for future expansions based on the recent experience with AA
[2009/06/28 9:47] Soro Dagostino: Then we can discuss.
[2009/06/28 9:47] Patroklus Murakami: i move we discuss the amendment
[2009/06/28 9:47] Pip Torok: seconded
[2009/06/28 9:48] Sonja Strom: aye
[2009/06/28 9:48] Pip Torok: aye
[2009/06/28 9:48] Soro Dagostino: In favor.
[2009/06/28 9:48] Soro Dagostino: Opposed?
[2009/06/28 9:49] Jamie Palisades: I;m confused? the vote is to open debvate?
[2009/06/28 9:49] Jamie Palisades: do you DO that here?
[2009/06/28 9:49] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[2009/06/28 9:49] Pip Torok: yes jamie
[2009/06/28 9:49] Jamie Palisades smiles, shrugs
[2009/06/28 9:49] Weston Lane is Online
[2009/06/28 9:49] Sonja Strom: Soro does
[2009/06/28 9:50] IM: Jamie Palisades:
[2009/06/28 9:50] Patroklus Murakami: shall i carry on?
[2009/06/28 9:50] Pip Torok: (please!)
[2009/06/28 9:50] Soro Dagostino: The proponent has te loor
[2009/06/28 9:50] Patroklus Murakami: well, the motion is a minimal way of getting us to where we want to be
[2009/06/28 9:51] Soro Dagostino: floor*
[2009/06/28 9:51] Patroklus Murakami: the first and third parts reflect what has actually happened. the RA approved a merger proposal developed by the Chancellor
[2009/06/28 9:51] Patroklus Murakami: hopefully, that is uncontroversial
[2009/06/28 9:51] Patroklus Murakami: the middle part is the most essential part though
[2009/06/28 9:52] Patroklus Murakami: our Constitution currently defines the RA as a body of democratically elected factions
[2009/06/28 9:52] Patroklus Murakami: it has some very involved rules about how to conduct elections and choose reps
[2009/06/28 9:52] Patroklus Murakami: none of this will apply to the AA reps joining us so, it seems to me, we need to make amendments to accomodate this
[2009/06/28 9:53] Patroklus Murakami: we have some discussion on previous proposals about the need (or not) for democratic elections to find additional interim reps
[2009/06/28 9:53] Jamie Palisades raises hand for a question, when it;s time
[2009/06/28 9:53] Patroklus Murakami: i hope that using the language from the UDHR will work for AA and for future mergers
[2009/06/28 9:54] Soro Dagostino: Noted
[2009/06/28 9:54] Patroklus Murakami: from the description of the process of choosing AAs reps it seems clear to me that they will be 'freely chosen' by the citizens of AA
[2009/06/28 9:54] Patroklus Murakami: so this amendment would cover the upcoming merger
[2009/06/28 9:55] Patroklus Murakami: it also sets the framework for future mergers i.e. the expectation that this will remain a democratic body that reflects the will of the citizens
[2009/06/28 9:55] Patroklus Murakami: that's all for now, happy to answer questions if anyone has them
[2009/06/28 9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (note the use of "chosen" and "representatives" on the UDHR: Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.)
[2009/06/28 9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn also signs in to speak
[2009/06/28 9:57] Soro Dagostino: I believe Jaime had the floor next
[2009/06/28 9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, he does!
[2009/06/28 9:57] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[2009/06/28 9:57] Jamie Palisades: I will have a comment myself, and for that am content to wait until after the RA members, but I raised by hand to ask Pat a specific question
[2009/06/28 9:57] Jamie Palisades: as he suggested just now that this bill if adopted would affect the AA merger
[2009/06/28 9:57] Soro Dagostino: YOu have the floor.
[2009/06/28 9:58] Jamie Palisades: Sir, is it your believe thatm notwithstanding the laps of appeal time for the enacted AA merger offer bill, that a selection of finterim reps by AA that exactly confirms to the bill will still be constitutionally attackable, without your legislation?
[2009/06/28 9:59] Jamie Palisades: (and DO forgive the bad hotel internet typing, please )
[2009/06/28 10:00] Patroklus Murakami: well, i think that's a question for the SC rather than for me In my opinion, yes, there would be a constitutional issue without my amendment or something that achieves the same ends
[2009/06/28 10:00] Jamie Palisades: And if your bill is enacted, as a CA, would that still leave the selection still open to challenge?
[2009/06/28 10:01] Sonja Strom raises hand
[2009/06/28 10:01] Soro Dagostino: Noted
[2009/06/28 10:02] Patroklus Murakami: well, anything is open to challenge. i think the real question is whether a challenge woudl succeed or not. i hope that my amendment would reduce the likelihood that AA reps joining the RA could be successfully challenged
[2009/06/28 10:02] Soro Dagostino: Answer is evasive
[2009/06/28 10:02] Soro Dagostino: oops, I am not the judge now.
[2009/06/28 10:03] Jamie Palisades: eh, I accept it, for what it;s worth, Your Honor
[2009/06/28 10:03] Patroklus Murakami: i'm sorry you think so soro
[2009/06/28 10:03] Patroklus Murakami: i think it's honest
[2009/06/28 10:03] Patroklus Murakami: anything can be challenged
[2009/06/28 10:03] Patroklus Murakami: i can't stop a challenge from happening
[2009/06/28 10:03] Pip Torok notes that the arbiter is the SC not this body
[2009/06/28 10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn nods
[2009/06/28 10:03] Patroklus Murakami: the point is - does amendment make it more or less likely to succeed?
[2009/06/28 10:04] Patroklus Murakami: i can't judge that, i'm not the SC! but i can give my opinion
[2009/06/28 10:05] Patroklus Murakami: in my opinion, this amendment would lessen the likelihood of a successful challenge
[2009/06/28 10:05] Soro Dagostino: Sonja -- you have the floor
[2009/06/28 10:05] Patroklus Murakami: that's why i'm putting it forward
[2009/06/28 10:05] Sonja Strom: I didn't know what a CA is, but I think I figured it out: a Constitutional Amendment?
[2009/06/28 10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes.
[2009/06/28 10:05] Sonja Strom: Thanks
[2009/06/28 10:06] Soro Dagostino: Anything more?
[2009/06/28 10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn wonders if I'm still considered to be in the queue... lol
[2009/06/28 10:07] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn .. your turn
[2009/06/28 10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks!
[2009/06/28 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... just to make this clear...
[2009/06/28 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) Unlike what has been said on this assembly earlier today,
[2009/06/28 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat's proposed amendment is NOT to make the AA merger void,
[2009/06/28 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but rather,
[2009/06/28 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to DEFEND it
[2009/06/28 10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why?
[2009/06/28 10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because 2) some people, now or on the future, might claim that the merger bill is unconstitutional,
[2009/06/28 10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since it creates (through a bill) a way for RA members to be appointed outside the normal election process.
[2009/06/28 10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now... the SC has not commented publicly on that (but on private — which I won't repeat of course — they had some doubts )
[2009/06/28 10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, to make SURE we can actually get +appointed interim RA members+, now and in the future,
[2009/06/28 10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) Pat has introduced this amendment which allows, and I quote,
[2009/06/28 10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The RA may be supplemented with interim additional representatives, freely chosen by a community joining the CDS"
[2009/06/28 10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It doesn't say HOW they're chosen — that's left for the merger bill(s) to decide
[2009/06/28 10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It just allows it to happen!
[2009/06/28 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, please,
[2009/06/28 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: when you vote on this,
[2009/06/28 10:11] Pip Torok raises hand re gwyns statement
[2009/06/28 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: don't see it as a "power struggle" on "who writes the nicest bills"
[2009/06/28 10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is actually what this is degenerating into.
[2009/06/28 10:11] Soro Dagostino: Pip -- noted
[2009/06/28 10:11] josephine Brouwer is Offline
[2009/06/28 10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look at it, please, on what we actually need to make sure that the merger bill is NOT attacked any more, neither today, nor in the future.
[2009/06/28 10:12] Delia Lake wants to put into the record that anything any SC member says unofficially is said only as a private citizen and in no way should be interpreted to be an SC opinion.
[2009/06/28 10:12] Soro Dagostino: It may be a while
[2009/06/28 10:12] Soro Dagostino: Your time is up Gywn.
[2009/06/28 10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Delia, but... on the other hand, SC members, as citizens, can definitely vent their opinions to the legislators to have them consider 'hints' as good opportunities to rewrite legislation *better*
[2009/06/28 10:12] Soro Dagostino: Unless a vote of the membbers overules the chaitr.
[2009/06/28 10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, thank you Soro.
[2009/06/28 10:13] Soro Dagostino: Pip
[2009/06/28 10:13] Jamie Palisades smiles, raises hand again to note place in queue after RA members
[2009/06/28 10:14] Pip Torok: I say this ... "freely chosen" means they are FREE to choose according to their whim ... We the CDS simply CANNOT say how they do or shd do this ... fuinished
[2009/06/28 10:14] Soro Dagostino: Noted Jamie
[2009/06/28 10:14] Soro Dagostino: Jamie
[2009/06/28 10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Pip and agrees with that interpretation
[2009/06/28 10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the amendment just refers back to the UDHR, using the same words; it doesn't 'enforce' any specific form of 'freely choosing' the representatives)
[2009/06/28 10:15] Soro Dagostino: Jamie has the floor
[2009/06/28 10:16] Jamie Palisades: Thanks - looks around - did I jump ahead of anyone?
[2009/06/28 10:16] Soro Dagostino: No.
[2009/06/28 10:16] Jamie Palisades: OK, first: - only unusually large mergers would create an RA representation issue. When we grow slowly and organically, like say with the 6 or so new citizens we will pick up on the Monastery sim, the newcomers simply become enfranchised at the next regular RA election. A larger incoming body, like AA's 60 or so, may ask to be represented form the outset. They did.
[2009/06/28 10:17] Jamie Palisades: so we are in an unusual case
[2009/06/28 10:17] Jamie Palisades: god willing
[2009/06/28 10:17] Jamie Palisades: at least while I;m serving ...
[2009/06/28 10:17] Jamie Palisades: As for a constitutional amendment, I originally suggested one myself, but one that would more clearly protect legitimate the Al-Andalus (AA) transaction.
[2009/06/28 10:17] Jamie Palisades: During the debates on our original merger offer act, which the CSDF faction opposed, there were quite a few comments -- even several meetings of impassionated speeches, and then later complaints of being cut off in mid-speech, etc. -- about the exact way in which AA would designate its transitional RA representatives.
[2009/06/28 10:18] Jamie Palisades: So there was some consideration concern about opposition, at the time, and future attacks
[2009/06/28 10:18] Jamie Palisades: I;m not going to repeat the bad feelings that went back and forth, bu read for yourself if you wish
[2009/06/28 10:18] Jamie Palisades: I then offered a constitutional amendment, which explicitly legitimated transactions of the type of AA. It included clauses to make it explicit that a selection process of the kind AA proposes to use for interim RA reps is constitutitonal. Our senators Gwyneth, Patroklaus and Sonja blocked it.
[2009/06/28 10:19] Jamie Palisades: The AA merger bill passed, and the date for constitutitional challenge expired. So acts taken properly pursuant to it and not OTHERWISE in violation of our laws SHOULD BY OUR LAWS be beyond reproach.
[2009/06/28 10:19] Jamie Palisades: Now Patroklus has offered another amendment
[2009/06/28 10:19] Jamie Palisades: several, including Sonja, posted correctly that no constitutional amendment is needed FOR completing the AA merger.
[2009/06/28 10:19] Jamie Palisades: Let's not be confused about the text of the amendment. Its words seem benign. AA's plan is in fact to send us "freely chosen" reps! As Pip said -- no risk there. If the SC acts in accordance with normal rules of interpretation So it SHOULD not create a basis for attack. To be blunt, I believe Pat is trying to help us, here.
[2009/06/28 10:19] Patroklus Murakami: ty jamie
[2009/06/28 10:20] Jamie Palisades: Sigh ... Let's not be confused about the text of the amendment. Its words seem benign. AA's plan is in fact to send us "freely chosen" reps! As Pip said -- no risk there. If the SC acts in accordance with normal rules of interpretation So it SHOULD not create a basis for attack. To be blunt, I believe Pat is trying to help us, here.
[2009/06/28 10:20] Jamie Palisades: oops, key mistake sorry
[2009/06/28 10:20] Jamie Palisades: Yet I still fear the help. The new legislation could STILL create new avenues of appeal. From a LEGISLATIVE point of view, why rush to fix what is not broken?
[2009/06/28 10:20] Jamie Palisades: With respect, the repeated references by some RA members to other lengthy parts of the UDHP have the sound of a warrior happily and lovingly clicking the safety off on their rifle. After all, as one former dean likes to say "the SC can do anything".
[2009/06/28 10:20] Jamie Palisades: To sum up in simple words: if I knew with certainty that the original opponents of this merger were NOT going to use this new law to try and unseat the transitional AA reps ... I'd have no problem with it.
[2009/06/28 10:21] Jamie Palisades: done, and apologies for the bad comm problems
[2009/06/28 10:21] Patroklus Murakami raises a hand
[2009/06/28 10:21] Soro Dagostino: Pat
[2009/06/28 10:21] Patroklus Murakami: we did not "oppose the merger" and it's really bad form to assign that to us
[2009/06/28 10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, jamie, that was really uncalled for.
[2009/06/28 10:22] Patroklus Murakami: we opposed elements of the proposed agreement (or rather one rep did)
[2009/06/28 10:22] Patroklus Murakami: and we opposed some of the terms of the constitutional amendment because we were worried they would undermine our democracy
[2009/06/28 10:22] Jamie Palisades apologies sincerely for any misstatement; the record's all in the public domain
[2009/06/28 10:22] Patroklus Murakami: we can disagree but let's not misrepresent sincerely-held views
[2009/06/28 10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* next
[2009/06/28 10:23] Patroklus Murakami: this amendment is not a 'trojan horse' as you seem to think
[2009/06/28 10:23] Soro Dagostino: NOted
[2009/06/28 10:23] Patroklus Murakami: it's not intended to leave a loophole for a future challenge
[2009/06/28 10:23] Patroklus Murakami: it's intended to close one
[2009/06/28 10:23] Patroklus Murakami: that's all
[2009/06/28 10:23] Soro Dagostino: Gwyn
[2009/06/28 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would just wish to reinforce two things. One, the AA merger bill is passed. The SC has not found any faults with it. It goes ahead without question. Nothing we decide here and today, at least what's on the agenda, will not change the AA merger bill.
[2009/06/28 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope that is crystal clear and without any further doubts
[2009/06/28 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And no more misinterpretations
[2009/06/28 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please
[2009/06/28 10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The second point is that obviously the SC can accept unconstitutional laws; it's up to them, obviously, to accept them or not.
[2009/06/28 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That doesn't mean that we, as RA members, aren't obliged to make sure that we uphold the Constitution as well
[2009/06/28 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... to make sure that *future* mergers,
[2009/06/28 10:25] Soro Dagostino: Is that a challange to the AA Merger?
[2009/06/28 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: do NOT exploit the "precedent" of pushing RA representatives into the RA *without any constitutional amendment*
[2009/06/28 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: NO.
[2009/06/28 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please.
[2009/06/28 10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The past is the past, Soro
[2009/06/28 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Approved is approved
[2009/06/28 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's think about the FUTURE.
[2009/06/28 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For the FUTURE mergers, we're proposing to introduce the possibility of RA members getting freely chosen from their communities for a merger.
[2009/06/28 10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And make that part of the Constitution.
[2009/06/28 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any other misinterpretations of my words will make me VERY angry 
[2009/06/28 10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's all, thank you
[2009/06/28 10:27] Soro Dagostino: Are you ready for the question?
[2009/06/28 10:28] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[2009/06/28 10:28] Jamie Palisades: On that last point i think we agree completely senator
[2009/06/28 10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good
[2009/06/28 10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then, I'm ready for the question hehe
[2009/06/28 10:28] Soro Dagostino: All in favor?
[2009/06/28 10:29] Patroklus Murakami: of the constitutional amendment? aye
[2009/06/28 10:29] Pip Torok: aye
[2009/06/28 10:29] Sonja Strom: aye
[2009/06/28 10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye.
[2009/06/28 10:30] Soro Dagostino: There are two senators' with Seve day votes
[2009/06/28 10:31] Soro Dagostino: for the record I vote No.
[2009/06/28 10:31] Pip Torok: does that affect the two thirds majority iyo?
[2009/06/28 10:31] Pip Torok: ah ...
[2009/06/28 10:31] Soro Dagostino: Yes
[2009/06/28 10:31] Patroklus Murakami: yes pip. one more vote in favour needed to pass
[2009/06/28 10:31] Jamie Palisades: mm - - either of the others absent can vote yes
[2009/06/28 10:31] Sonja Strom raises hand.
[2009/06/28 10:31] Soro Dagostino: Yes Sonja
[2009/06/28 10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, is the voting over?...
[2009/06/28 10:32] Sonja Strom: I would like to propose that a vote against would not really be a vote to "block" the amendement, but that it would be a vote not in favor of adopting the amendement.
[2009/06/28 10:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, sorry — i got some lag
[2009/06/28 10:33] Sonja Strom: Thanks
[2009/06/28 10:33] Sonja Strom: This is a matter of interpretation, but that is how I see it.
[2009/06/28 10:33] Pip Torok thought it wd have been the general interpretation ...
[2009/06/28 10:33] Patroklus Murakami: that's how i would take a no vote sonja but, it's really up to RA members to say what they intend
[2009/06/28 10:33] Sonja Strom:
[2009/06/28 10:33] Soro Dagostino: It is a constitutional amendment.
[2009/06/28 10:33] Jamie Palisades: (maybe a language difference? not sure I see the distinction. A vote against is a vote to not do something. No?)
[2009/06/28 10:34] Soro Dagostino: That is the understanding of the chair.
[2009/06/28 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A vote of no is that it doesn't pass; anyone can reintroduce const. amendments in the future
[2009/06/28 10:34] Pip Torok: depends on your macchiavellian / non-m caste of mind jamie!
[2009/06/28 10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[2009/06/28 10:34] Soro Dagostino: Agreed
[2009/06/28 10:35] Danton Sideways: Bye all, I'll be running along now
[2009/06/28 10:35] Sonja Strom: bye Danton
[2009/06/28 10:35] Soro Dagostino: Ciao.
[2009/06/28 10:35] Patroklus Murakami: bye danton
[2009/06/28 10:35] Delia Lake: bye Danton
[2009/06/28 10:35] Pip Torok: bye danton!
[2009/06/28 10:35] Jamie Palisades: Ta Danton. Well, in any case, I deeply appreciate the clarifications here, ladies and gentlemen; we owe it to our merger partners to know where they stand. We'll see how the vote comes out. Frankly, if it does not pass this time, the new RA probably should return to the issue -- personally I would like NOT to be in the position again of negotiating a merger without some clarity on those points.
[2009/06/28 10:36] Soro Dagostino: We have some additional items on the agenda. Is someone here to be the proponent?
[2009/06/28 10:36] Soro Dagostino: From The SC?
[2009/06/28 10:37] Delia Lake: my apologies but Claude put out these agenda items and he is not here
[2009/06/28 10:37] Soro Dagostino: Should they be postponed?
[2009/06/28 10:38] Delia Lake: I would recommend that, yes
[2009/06/28 10:38] Soro Dagostino: Chair will accept that as a Motion . . . RA Memeber?
[2009/06/28 10:38] Pip Torok: seconded
[2009/06/28 10:39] Soro Dagostino: Heh! you moved
[2009/06/28 10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine in postponing, assuming that only Claude can do that presentations...
[2009/06/28 10:39] Soro Dagostino: Second?
[2009/06/28 10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn is happy to second Pip
[2009/06/28 10:39] Soro Dagostino:
[2009/06/28 10:39] Pip Torok: lol!
[2009/06/28 10:39] Patroklus Murakami: thirded
[2009/06/28 10:39] Soro Dagostino: Now, all in =favor?
[2009/06/28 10:39] Pip Torok: aye
[2009/06/28 10:39] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[2009/06/28 10:40] Sonja Strom: aye
[2009/06/28 10:40] Soro Dagostino: Opposed?
[2009/06/28 10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[2009/06/28 10:40] Soro Dagostino: ooops
[2009/06/28 10:40] Soro Dagostino: sorry
[2009/06/28 10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry! that was an aye for postponing ))
[2009/06/28 10:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn was not fast enough hehe
[2009/06/28 10:40] Soro Dagostino: Motion carried
[2009/06/28 10:40] Sonja Strom: (not an aye for opposing? lol)
[2009/06/28 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (no no, Sonja!!)
[2009/06/28 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[2009/06/28 10:41] Sonja Strom:
[2009/06/28 10:41] Soro Dagostino: Any further business?
[2009/06/28 10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just one clarification really...
[2009/06/28 10:41] Soro Dagostino: Yes?
[2009/06/28 10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie suggested that the territory accession of the AA would happen between July 7th and 16th
[2009/06/28 10:42] Soro Dagostino: Yes?
[2009/06/28 10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The agenda somehow mentions we should "vote" on it,
[2009/06/28 10:42] Jamie Palisades: must be a typo
[2009/06/28 10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I would like to suggest that we skip the voting, this is an executive procedure really and should be best left in the hands of the Chancellor
[2009/06/28 10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Jamie, that's what I thought
[2009/06/28 10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm clarified
[2009/06/28 10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[2009/06/28 10:43] Soro Dagostino: It is. Late nights on the computer.
[2009/06/28 10:43] Pip Torok: nuits blanches ....
[2009/06/28 10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, ok, just wondering, I don't want to get accused of deliberately skipping an important vote and trying to delay the merger further
[2009/06/28 10:44] Sonja Strom: lol
[2009/06/28 10:44] Jamie Palisades smiles
[2009/06/28 10:44] Jamie Palisades: Well, in case it's not obvious, as the executive charged with operational enactment of the merger, my job was and is to deliver certainty as much as possible One hurdle passed in today's meeting ... another is when the effective date occurs. So we hope to time its effectuive date for whatever date LEAST perturbs the RA election
[2009/06/28 10:44] Sonja Strom: Thank you for that
[2009/06/28 10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So long as Linden Lab is not pushing sims around during *election day*, I'm fine with any date
[2009/06/28 10:45] Soro Dagostino: Are we ready to adjoourn.?
[2009/06/28 10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please
[2009/06/28 10:45] Pip Torok: so move
[2009/06/28 10:45] Sonja Strom: second
[2009/06/28 10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's adjourn! hehe
[2009/06/28 10:45] Jamie Palisades: hhaha oh god, spare us THAT Gwyn
[2009/06/28 10:45] Soro Dagostino: Moved and seconded
[2009/06/28 10:45] Soro Dagostino: In favor
[2009/06/28 10:45] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[2009/06/28 10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[2009/06/28 10:45] Pip Torok: aye
[2009/06/28 10:45] Sonja Strom: aye
[2009/06/28 10:46] Jamie Palisades: Informally, FWIW, I believe deeply in the UDHP, authored post-WWII by a committe chaired by a fellow citizen of mine ... but am pleased to not have it as a hammer over the merger's head.
[2009/06/28 10:46] Soro Dagostino: Someone poke Pat
[2009/06/28 10:46] Patroklus Murakami: i already said aye!
[2009/06/28 10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat voted "aye"... there is some chat lag sometimes
[2009/06/28 10:46] Soro Dagostino: Ah, sorry -- missed it.
[2009/06/28 10:46] Patroklus Murakami: jamie, the amendment hasn't passed/failed yet
[2009/06/28 10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, since the SC declared the merger to be constitutionally sound, there was no doubt any more.
[2009/06/28 10:47] Soro Dagostino: We stand ajourened
[2009/06/28 10:47] Jamie Palisades: my need to have things clarififed, Pat, has been served by the record here either way
[2009/06/28 10:47] Sonja Strom: But it should not be a hammer over the merger's head anyway...
[2009/06/28 10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, a lot could be said about it, Sonja
[2009/06/28 10:48] Sonja Strom: They are not incompatible at all so far as I see.
[2009/06/28 10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was the SC's decision too, Sonja. So...
[2009/06/28 10:48] Jamie Palisades: Indeed, SOnja -- note, though that if somethign abomniable happened -- say, Al Andalus elected only to permit persons of Asian heritage to participate -- that would NOT be beyond SC challenge -- because that's not a determinstic result of the enacted bill;
[2009/06/28 10:48] Soro Dagostino: Well folk -- I have been here since 4:30 -- gone!
[2009/06/28 10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Any bill that doesn't go against either the Constitution or the UNHR and is validated by the SC as not doing so, doesn't need to "fear" anything
[2009/06/28 10:49] Sonja Strom: I think probably you are right about that Jamie, but would they do that?
[2009/06/28 10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And you're right on that, Jamie. Technically, yes, the SC could oversee the 'selection' procedure
[2009/06/28 10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that's up to them, not to us