RA Meeting 3 January 2010: Transcript

[Cindy Ecksol]

Meeting on 2010-01-03
Those present:
Cindy Ecksol is in the chair.
Cindy Ecksol: agenda is in the amphora as usual....with an extra item as a result of yesterday's SC meeting
Cindy Ecksol: so take a look while we have time
Pip Torok:
Joaquin Gustav: happy new year all
Cindy Ecksol: happy new year joa!
Micael Khandr: Happy New Year!
Pip Torok: and to you Micael!
Rose Springvale: HI everyone. sorry, finishing ims here
Pip Torok: and to you Joaquin
Pip Torok: hi Rose
Micael Khandr has indicated consent to be recorded.
Pip Torok has indicated consent to be recorded.
Micael Khandr: Just me
Micael Khandr: TY
Pip Torok: hi Soro /... Happy New Year
Rose Springvale: in im micael lol
Rose Springvale: brb
Micael Khandr: Thanks for the IM--I didn't want to feel left out . . .
Pip Torok: brb
Soro Dagostino: Hello all -- Happy New Year.
Cindy Ecksol: hello!
Cindy Ecksol: and happy new year.
Cindy Ecksol: please touch the recorder to indicate consent
Soro Dagostino has indicated consent to be recorded.
Joaquin Gustav has indicated consent to be recorded.
Cindy Ecksol: and agenda is in the amphora
Arria Perreault: Hi everybody
Soro Dagostino: brb -- warming my coffeee
Cindy Ecksol checks to make sure her coffee is hot
Sonja Strom: hello everybody
Pip Torok: hi Sonja
Micael Khandr: brb . . looking for black tar heroin . . .
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Cindy Ecksol: still waiting for a few....
Cindy Ecksol: please take a look at the agenda while we are waiting -- new item there and a link to the relevant posting from the SC meeting yesterday
Cindy Ecksol: gwyn and caro are on their way so we'll wait for them and then get started
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi all :=
Cindy Ecksol: hi gwyn, caro...
Joaquin Gustav: hello
Cindy Ecksol: agenda in the amphora, please touch the recorder and we'll get started
Carolyn Saarinen: Salaam aleikum
Carolyn Saarinen has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn waits patiently for the recorcer to rez
Cindy Ecksol:
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah... found it
Cindy Ecksol: not too bad this morning thank goodness....
Pip Torok: hi Gwyn, caro
Cindy Ecksol: all right...agenda....
Rose Springvale: morning Sterling
Sterling Troughton: morning
Cindy Ecksol: you'll notice that I've added an item under "new business" at the request of SC
Cindy Ecksol: not sure it's necessary for RA to vote, but they've asked us to do so anyway.
Cindy Ecksol: if no objections I'd like to take that one on right after reports
Cindy Ecksol: or maybe before reports if Jamie and Stui are late
Cindy Ecksol waits to hear objectsion or any other modifications to agenda
Soro Dagostino: Move approval
Cindy Ecksol: second?
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds.
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor?
Pip Torok: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
Soro Dagostino: aye
Micael Khandr: aye
Joaquin Gustav: aye
Sonja Strom: aye
Cindy Ecksol: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn goes to get some hot coffee, give me just a second (and apologies in advance hehe )
Cindy Ecksol: any opposed?
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Cindy Ecksol: ok, great...
Cindy Ecksol: moment....checking for 7 day votes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and back, I'm very sorry !)
Cindy Ecksol: ok, no requested 7 day votes.
Cindy Ecksol: I see that jamie is not here, nor stui, so with your permission....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (permission granted! haha )
Cindy Ecksol: would like to discuss new bsiness
Cindy Ecksol:
Cindy Ecksol: has everyone lhad a chance to check the link?
Pip Torok: not yet
Rose Springvale: hi stui
Cindy Ecksol: ok, please do so now.....
Cindy Ecksol: ah, stui!
Carolyn Saarinen: which link Cindy?
Cindy Ecksol: on the agenda notecard Caro....under new businesss
Pip Torok: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2630#p14029 )
Cindy Ecksol: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 579#p14087
Cindy Ecksol: there we go...
Micael Khandr: Question, Cindy. How is this new business related to the old business of changing the faction rule?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: There's no need to stand up the Queen has arrived !
Cindy Ecksol: it's not Micael....
StuiChicanne Darkstone: evening !
Carolyn Saarinen: thanks
Cindy Ecksol: Stui, we temporarily skipped your Commerce Commission report, but will come backk to it after this item
Micael Khandr: So we could affirm what SC wants, and still change the faction rule?
Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles and waves at Stui
StuiChicanne Darkstone has indicated consent to be recorded.
Cindy Ecksol: whoops...lost Soro
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think so, Micael...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (or rather, I actually hope so!)
Micael Khandr: For this comig election?
Micael Khandr: coming
Pip Torok: have we a total number of voting citizens?
Cindy Ecksol: ah....well, that would be controversial.
Micael Khandr: Really? Sounds attractive . .
Carolyn Saarinen: We must have if Faction size has been set
Cindy Ecksol: wel,m let's do this first...then discuss the faction amendment, ok?
Micael Khandr: OK
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds our LRA on the correct order of discussing things
StuiChicanne Darkstone: don't anyone light the torches or the christmas brussel sprouts will sent me into orbit
Pip Torok: lol
Micael Khandr: Anyone have a match?
Cindy Ecksol: ok, so the essence is that SC has proposed to move the faction cert and candidate cert deadlines to next week, leaving the campaign at the same lenght and election date unchanged
Cindy Ecksol: any discussion?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Rose Springvale
Cindy Ecksol: rose?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: technically, it's always the RA that sets dates, and the SC validates them...
Gwyneth Llewelyn shuts up and hears Rose first
Soro Dagostino: Sorry, SL decided to toss me.
Rose Springvale: no, you have priority, i'm just in line for after RA
Cindy Ecksol: ok, gwyn, you have the floor
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, it's just a trifle really. For all the reasons that we know and them so, I actually welcome the suggestion to move the elections to the suggested date,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I definitely move a motion to approve the new dates (after discussion)
Pip Torok notes that the SC made it a _suggestion_ ...
Cindy Ecksol: thanks.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And yes, I'm aware that this in no way will interfere with the rest of discussion thanks. And sorry Rose! (Happy new Year btw lol )
StuiChicanne Darkstone: HAPPY STU YEAR !
Cindy Ecksol: we'll need asecond to Gwyn's motion too...anyone?
Pip Torok: second
Cindy Ecksol: thanks
Cindy Ecksol: any other thoughts/comments before I recognize rose?
Cindy Ecksol: ok, rose you have the floor
Rose Springvale: Thank you. Despite the language in the post regarding proper census information, i'd just like to point out that the citizen census is determined with respect to the election date
Rose Springvale: so that my reading changes the census to the people owning land in CDS as of i believe, december 27
Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm.....
Cindy Ecksol: good point.
Rose Springvale: so that while i don't think it will make a significant difference, the numbers will change somewhat
Rose Springvale: perhaps 3 or 4 more citizens.
Cindy Ecksol: SC certified the census at 121.
Cindy Ecksol: 3 or 4 more would not change faction size...
Cindy Ecksol: but would change who can vote potentially.
Cindy Ecksol: oh...wait....
Gwyneth Llewelyn wonders if we ought to have an emergency census...
Rose Springvale: unfortunately, no transcript was posted so it's impossible for those of us not able to attend meetings on such short notice, or any of the AA peopel who got no notice, to see what the rationale was
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Cindy Ecksol: well, transcript was taken....not sure why not posted.
Cindy Ecksol: I was there, but this particular issue was not brought up.
Pip Torok didnt know the time of the SC meeting
Rose Springvale: just saying, if you are going to change constitutional requirements, adequate notice and reporting would seem appropriate
Cindy Ecksol: I believe the thought was that all dates were relative to the start of the new term, so since the new term date had not changed, no need to change any other dates
Soro Dagostino: I didn't either -- but it was in the header of the note.
Rose Springvale: again, only posted to CDS.
Carolyn Saarinen: propose we execute the SC for counter-revolutionary thouight!
Cindy Ecksol: yes!
Cindy Ecksol: uh...no....
Cindy Ecksol: never mind....
Carolyn Saarinen: too late!
Rose Springvale: i have a guillotine...
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Micael Khandr: requires a second . .
Cindy Ecksol: are you seconding, micael?
Micael Khandr: No, I'm non-violent
Carolyn Saarinen: c'mon you know you want to
Cindy Ecksol: oh, good....
Cindy Ecksol: all right, back to business....
Gwyneth Llewelyn is so sorry to have missed that
Cindy Ecksol: I'm thinking that we can approve change of faction cert and candidate cert and then go back to SC and ask for clarification on residency status
Carolyn Saarinen mutters never get anything useful passed here
Cindy Ecksol: any other thoughts?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: well if it makes everyone feel better... I was supervising making soup in RL... and only just averted disaster of the most crisped up turkey I have ever seen in my life... I didn't know you could make turkey look like bacon
Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
Micael Khandr: Thanks for sharing, Stui . . .
Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
Pip Torok: HA!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway, I personally second Cindy's thoughts.
Cindy Ecksol: AND....back to business....are we ready to vote on this?
Cindy Ecksol: I need a motion to conclude discussion.....hint hint
Micael Khandr: Call the vote
Cindy Ecksol: second?
Carolyn Saarinen: so moved
Soro Dagostino: Stiu, sprinkle it wiith garlic and spread it on toast.
Cindy Ecksol: thank you .
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor of moving cert dates for factions and candidates to Jan 8 and election start to Jan 23 say "aye"
Carolyn Saarinen: Or, Stui, put it in a pot with tomatoes, that renders anything edible
Cindy Ecksol: opposed say "nay"
Pip Torok: aye
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Soro Dagostino: aye
Micael Khandr: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
Sonja Strom: aye
Cindy Ecksol: aye
Cindy Ecksol: and arria?
Arria Perreault: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There
Cindy Ecksol: ok, motion carries unanimously.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: woot
Cindy Ecksol: I will bring the question of voter eligiblity back to Aliasi
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Okies.
Cindy Ecksol: hopefully we can clear that up before next Friday
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hopefully
Cindy Ecksol: moving on....stui, do you have a report on Commerce Commission?
Cindy Ecksol pokes stui with a turkey drumstick
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am afraid due to holiday scheduling and putting stuffing into once living hand puppets we have not had progress but this is 2010 and Rosy and I shall be having a tete a tete for a schedule to be confirmed
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'm super efficient now
StuiChicanne Darkstone:
Cindy Ecksol: ok, thanks....
Cindy Ecksol: ok, old business.
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Pip Torok says hello to the new up-to-date model!
Cindy Ecksol: we had tabled discussion of the faction eleimination amendment last time....
Cindy Ecksol: so we're in "discussion" phase.
Micael Khandr: If I may . . .
Cindy Ecksol: sure, micael....
Micael Khandr: The fact that there has been trouble getting enrollment to qualify more than two factions is an indication that the "people" do not want factions as presently organized.
Micael Khandr: I think we should eliminate them now--for this coming election.
Micael Khandr: Done
Cindy Ecksol: ok, thanks
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Pip Torok
Cindy Ecksol: Pip, you have the floor
Cindy Ecksol: Pip?
Pip Torok: i believe the the apathy is just that ... apathey and has no connection to the existence of factions ... those who care have always known that we are faction-based and not "mp" based
Pip Torok: done
Cindy Ecksol: thanks.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Patroklus Murakami
Cindy Ecksol: Pat, you have a comment?
Micael Khandr: I care . .
Micael Khandr:
Patroklus Murakami: my comment is similar to pip's. i think that it indicates the lack of interest in being on the RA rather than a faction problem per se
Patroklus Murakami: i think the question of whehter ppl wnat factions or not should be tested by the ballot box
Carolyn Saarinen sniggers
Patroklus Murakami: let an 'anti-faction faction' stand and see if that's what ppl want
Patroklus Murakami: that's all
Cindy Ecksol: thanks....
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Gwyneth Llewelyn
Cindy Ecksol: Gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I sort of did a few comments on this subject...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And well, I've promised a certain member at teh RA, who shall remain unnamed,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that I would give some thoughts about it ? about not only the incoming elections,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but what Pip so correctly alluded: a certain "apathy" coming from a few of the citizens,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: which makes them less engaging in teh CDS ? in its community; in its political live
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... you know that I've been a keen defender of the faction system
Gwyneth Llewelyn: For one practical reason,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I still think that people ought to vote on ideas, projects
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... because people come and go
Pip Torok: one way out wd be to notecard each factionless citizen inviting them to join _some_ faction
Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's very rare, for instance, that we get a full quorum on the RA,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in spite of being less than a dozen!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The faction system was created,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: taking this into account,
Carolyn Saarinen: quorum oOR full? not the same thing?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and assuming that if you vote for an idea,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (full)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: the idea is carried along, even if a "person" that you happen to like on the faction is not there,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: this has been what I've been defending... since 2004.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: BUT...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Things change
Pip Torok wonders in what way it has changed
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie has commented (perhaps rightfully so) that citizens see the "factions" as a way to "power struggle"
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I might claim otherwise; factions struggle to *exist* these days hehe )
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But what the citizens perceive can also be important ? remember Caeser's wife
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The proposed change,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: would not "eliminate" factions,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: in the sense of making them illegal or something
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we will still have the right to assemble
Micael Khandr: True
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The CSDF, for instance, will still meet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and publish a manifesto
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and list their candidaes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hold open sessions and so on
Gwyneth Llewelyn: but...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: others, who now feel threatened by the faction system,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or plainly dislike it
Gwyneth Llewelyn: would be allowed to become candidates on their own.
Carolyn Saarinen puts on ThinkPol titile
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Micael Khandr: Cough
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... this is teh positive aspect of the change.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It will allow whoever prefers to vote/be elected by a "faction" ? to continue to do so.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It will at the same time,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: allow those that dislike factions,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: to both be elected and vote on individuals as well.
Micael Khandr: Well spoken.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now I just ahve ONE problem...
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and then I promise to shut up!)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: What happens if the person we voted for,
Cindy Ecksol extends the clock for gwyn
Gwyneth Llewelyn: after, say, a month,
Pip Torok wonders how many actively dislike the idea of factions
Gwyneth Llewelyn: is forced to leave?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: if we can answer that question, I'll be happy to let this proposed change pass.
Cindy Ecksol: thanks gwyn
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Micael Khandr
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, we do have a question: "the next in place in the faction list will replace; if there aren't any left, new elections"
Micael Khandr: How do you mean "forced"?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need an easy, obvioous method to do the same
Gwyneth Llewelyn: for single candidates
Cindy Ecksol: finished, gwyn?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: without giving teh citizens this idea that their vote is "lost" or placed on someone else they dislike.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I'm finoshed, and I do apologise.
Cindy Ecksol: thanks....
Cindy Ecksol: micael, you have the floor
Micael Khandr: Actually, my comments were already articulated by Gwyen.
Micael Khandr: So I'm OK
Cindy Ecksol: ok, thanks....
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: StuiChicanne Darkstone
Cindy Ecksol: stui?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Factions lead to a gang mentality and are surely a source of restriction of individual independent thought and opinion and I am sure there are none of us here present that are incapable of holding our own opinions surely ? We can work together without specifying a division or a collective view, I rather believe that this is a more progressive thought (think of Blake and his attitude towards collective worship and think of the value of your own personal thought) I for one could not be accused of towing a party line. why would anyone else care to ?
Cindy Ecksol: whew!!
Cindy Ecksol: that was quick...
Micael Khandr: Tell us how you really feel, Stui . . .
StuiChicanne Darkstone:
Gwyneth Llewelyn feels embarassed after Stui's condensed answer...
Cindy Ecksol: finished stui?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am not often accused of being shy
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am Cindy and I take a bow
Cindy Ecksol: thanks....
Carolyn Saarinen: Hey preparation is good
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Rose Springvale
Cindy Ecksol: rose?
Pip Torok finds that food for thought
StuiChicanne Darkstone: (no sneaking a look at my posterior plz_
Rose Springvale: thanks, can you skip me for a moment, dealing with rl.
Cindy Ecksol: ok...
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Keila Forager
Cindy Ecksol: keila?
Keila Forager: Hi, thanks
Keila Forager: As a relatively new citizen, I don't really think that it's as much apathy for not having more citizens join factions as it is lack of information..

(continued)

[Cindy Ecksol]

(continued)

Keila Forager: I had one person approach me when I became a citizen..
Keila Forager: about factions
Keila Forager: and to find the information on my own was a struggle and I only perserved because I wan'ted to know what was going on in CDS..
Carolyn Saarinen: sounds familiar
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sounds scary!)
Keila Forager: As for factions, just what I was reading, I'm inclined to not join one as they pretty much all say the same thing and if I have to vote for a faction as opposed to a person , I probably won't..
Keila Forager: I don't vote parties in RL and would be opposed to it here..
Carolyn Saarinen: again, deja vu
Micael Khandr: Clap, clap
Keila Forager: how many citizens really come to meetings and understand??
Cindy Ecksol smiles
Cindy Ecksol: I could ask the same question in RL
Keila Forager: and notice for all meetings events , isn't really enough time to make plans...
Keila Forager: done..or we will be here until next meeting...I seem to have lots to say
Keila Forager smiles
Micael Khandr: TY Keila
Cindy Ecksol: thanks keila
Cindy Ecksol: rose are you back with us?
Rose Springvale: yes
Rose Springvale: one sec
Rose Springvale: ok
Carolyn Saarinen: just hit the kid!
Rose Springvale: First i take issue that 2/3 of our citizens as apathetic? i don't think so. our citizens are passionate and involved.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol !
Micael Khandr: Or put in tomato sauce . . .
Cindy Ecksol raises her eyebrows
Rose Springvale: Factions are fractious. My experiences is that they are ineffective.. representatives don't necessarily follow the philosophy, nor do they 'represent'
So it becomes a system that maintains the status quo. RA is hard to learn, people don't understand
Rose Springvale: philosophy and projects ARE a good basis for organizing into voting blocks, but the faction system actually discourages this... i may agree with the CSDF on one issue, and DPU on another, if i'm a rep, i should be following the wishes of my faction! not my philosophy
Pip Torok wonders whether nonfactions are less fractious
Rose Springvale: as for replacements.. the next in line in the list.. eliminate faction and you have your replacement policy.... the lost vote/placed on someone they dislike issue is what we have now!
Micael Khandr: Well spoken, Rose
Rose Springvale: i dont' think having an election to elect an unfaction makes sense
Rose Springvale: just more division
Rose Springvale: and does what we have our biggest problem with... stalls a decision
Rose Springvale: I encourage you to be bold
Rose Springvale: done
Rose Springvale: give ALL our citizens a voice.
Micael Khandr: clap, clap
Keila Forager: Yes
Cindy Ecksol: thanks, rose.
Cindy Ecksol: ./100 next
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Cindy Ecksol
Cindy Ecksol: ah...that's me
Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles*
Cindy Ecksol: and I DO have some things to say about this even though I've said little to this pointe
Cindy Ecksol: first, I agree with those who have pointed out that we are in the midst of an apathetic revolution, not a disklike of factions
Cindy Ecksol: Kelia pointed out that we do not encourage faction membership...
Cindy Ecksol: that we do not publish meetings inadvance....
Cindy Ecksol: and that most people dont' show up for meetings or get involved with the forums
Cindy Ecksol: I agree: it's about apathy, not about dislike of factions.
Cindy Ecksol: So I don't see the faction system as broken per se....
Cindy Ecksol: merely underutilized
Cindy Ecksol: having said that, I also agree with Rose: all too often factions have been a force for creating contention and delaying decisions
Cindy Ecksol: I don't like that....but I think it' smore related to apathy than to a failure of the sytem.
Cindy Ecksol: Third, I do not think that our current system is iappropriate for the "real world"....but as Gwyn pointed out, given the fact that we are living "second lives" here, not our "real lives" I think it may be an appropriate system for THIS community
Cindy Ecksol: specifically I think she's right about the fact that it deals most effectively with the question of how we keep RA seats active
Cindy Ecksol: Finally, Rose challenged us to be "bold"
Cindy Ecksol: b ut there ISZ such a thing as "too bold"...and we call that "reckless"
Cindy Ecksol: it OUGHT to take a long time to change the constitution....and this is really only the second time we have discussed this issue in any coordinated community fashion
Cindy Ecksol: I would also point out that there's another way to be "bold" in this situation.
Jamie Palisades: Bravely do nothing?
Cindy Ecksol: as Pat proposed, perhaps it is Boldest for us to allow the people to speak.
Cindy Ecksol: no, Jamie.
Cindy Ecksol: that's not what it's about.
Cindy Ecksol: there are many who believe that "the people" want this amendment
Keila Forager: Are you sure you want us speaking...LOL
Cindy Ecksol: but I don't see 121 residents in this room....nor involved in discussions about it.
Carolyn Saarinen: Nor will you
Cindy Ecksol: no, I don't think I will Caro....
Keila Forager: Because most don't know about the meetings..
Cindy Ecksol: but they SHOULD have a voice....
Cindy Ecksol: that voice is the election.
Rose Springvale: then delay this election, which you have done already, which btw changes the constitution, and take a referendum.
Cindy Ecksol: those who are interested in this amendment now have the opport5unity to appeal to the population.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Apathy if it is there, and can be seen to be in existence, is often as a silent protest and as a result of lacking relevance within a political system or community. Also Apathy can be worsened by being acknowledged as it becomes almost like a contagious trend, "why should I bother if the rest are not?" if we are to recognise a state of apathy then we would be best advised to make changes to see if we can affect a reinvigoration, rather than simply making an excuse of its source and using it as a provocation to continue as we have previously. Interest is engendered by freshness not staleness, if we so treasure the stale environment, are we going to spring clean this year or learn to love the cobwebs? Laziness is not apathy, fear of change is not apathy, but being completely disinterested in the merits of action, that is apathy.
Carolyn Saarinen: 'Representative' Assembly. clue's in the name
Cindy Ecksol: get out there, form a faction, create a platform, and solicit votes
Cindy Ecksol: that's what "democracy" is all about -- it's "activist" not "pacifist."
Cindy Ecksol: get out ther and campaign for what you believe in.
Cindy Ecksol: the RA is not the proper place to argue this out....elections are.
Cindy Ecksol: finished.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Pip Torok
Cindy Ecksol: Pip?
Pip Torok: a word for thre faction system ... speaking personally i find that an RA's impulse to forwrd rash proposals can be checked by second opinions from colleagues in the faction ....
Pip Torok: done
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue:
Cindy Ecksol: Gwyn? briefly, please
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or quickly lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I just wish to add that it's not fair to assume that factions are more "disruptive" than individuals. At least if you have 3 factions on the RA; you have 3 different points of view, and that means you just need to reconcile three different visions. Once we get 11 individuals, we have 11 points of view to reconcile, and the struggle will be WAY harder, not easier Thus, decisions will take WAY longer to reach, not less time. But... personally, I'm willing to give the proposed system a try, since I might be completely wrong in my perceptions. The second point, however, is far more important for me to clarify. Rose, you said, "if someone leaves the RA, we just put the next in line". How is that a guarantee that the representatives elected are actually the will of the people who voted on them. By this I mean that people that did NOT get enough votes (e.g. not 'liked' enough by the citizens to actually become reps) might be catapulted into the RA ? against the *vast majority* of the votes,
Sonja Strom: lol!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: since the vast majority, well, will have elected the original RA members, not the "replacements". Such a system, which allows people to become representative even though nobody voted (enough) on them, cannot be called a representative democracy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (Just remember that the entity that represents citizens at the RA right now is the abstract notion of a "faction", which can summarised as "a group of people sharing the same ideas")
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, there are methods to deal with this. One, as suggested, is that every citizen will vote on "replacements" as well ? at the ballot, they'd vote, say, for 2 candidates for each of the 11 seats.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But as you see, we still have a few things to sort out first,
Cindy Ecksol nods in agreement
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I don't think we should just blindly pass this resolution
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and get the next elections right now with the new system
Gwyneth Llewelyn: without asking the people first!
Sterling Troughton: We could try an auction
Keila Forager: LOL
Cindy Ecksol smiles
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I'll certainly move to add that question (change of system to Jamie's proposed model) as a referendum on the upcoming elections. Done, thanks!
Rose Springvale: i'll respons when it's my turn
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Gwyneth Llewelyn
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Jamie Palisades
Carolyn Saarinen: with STV, I don't see how a second choice could be wholly at odds with voter's thinking?
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie?
Jamie Palisades: Thanks for taking up this proposal. Which obviously I support. I see that the LRA has time limits this morning - for most people, so I'll try to be briefer that usual. If you know me, you know that's a personal challange for me
Jamie Palisades: Three things, and a suggestion.
Jamie Palisades: First, i think we neeed in fairness to ackowledge the rationality of the old system! The original designers wanted an experiment in democracy. But they wanted to use the party-centric model. That was NOT irrational, or stupid. It's just proved to be a model that does not work well for US. More on that in a moment.
Jamie Palisades: Second, I respectfully disagree with a few RA members here who said that dislike of factions is not a drag on governance participation.
Jamie Palisades: I guess some current RA members might not feel that way - um, because they come from factions
Jamie Palisades: but
Jamie Palisades: (a) Keila just said so, as a newcomer.
Jamie Palisades: (b) So have others who are NOT here at the RA -- for obvious reasons. I hear from lots of nonpolitical CDS people who look at our system and opt out -- note -- not from apathy, but from distaste at the current factious system, which, yes, is fed by factionalization and football club mentality.
Jamie Palisades: look,
Jamie Palisades: I could spin out a list, here, of good constructive people, who left more or less in disgust, but it would be impolite, and in fact, many of you KNOW them already.
Jamie Palisades: evidence #1 for factions not working well for us:
Jamie Palisades: Consider that we had few candidates -- and barely had factions! -- this year.
Pip Torok is unhappy about hints of partiality
Jamie Palisades: colleguages, face it, your citizens mostly are boycotting the whole system.
Jamie Palisades: pip, if you can explain when I am donem, i will try to respons, and apologize if there's spomethign I sad that is wrong, but I thikn it;s natural that peopel who were SEATED by any faction system would start out assuming it;s a good system.
Pip Torok: boycotting? or just apathetic? who can actually say?
Callipygian Christensen murmurs that along with those who leave are those who come and observe and don't bother joining
Jamie Palisades: I leave, Pip, it to you all whether there are people who would participate in a system that was less baroque. That IS the question. I note we have four current RA members who did not come up through the faction system -- and might NOT have.
Cindy Ecksol notes that there are those who just don't like the rough and tumble of politics period...
Carolyn Saarinen NOT seated by a faction system. See the difference?
Jamie Palisades: when it;s unnecessarily rough, yers which factions induce
Jamie Palisades: ahem
Jamie Palisades: let me get that last point out
Gwyneth Llewelyn notes that there are so many who dislike democracy in general, but love our lovely events
Jamie Palisades: Finally, on replacing members. We have HAD by-elections; they worked fine; I remember because I had to moderate the mid-term candidate debate trhat year
Carolyn Saarinen: 'Our lovely events' are organised by AA's Sultana
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Gwyneth Llewelyn would vote for her
Cindy Ecksol would also vote for Rose
Micael Khandr: Is Rose running . . . ?
Jamie Palisades: Ladies & Gents & er, Gywn on your point - you think ANY meetings drive away participation, and see nothing in the faction system that does. With respect, I think faction leaders are not in the best vantage point to see distaste for it. But please, look at the numbers. this term
Carolyn Saarinen: Jihad!
Jamie Palisades: we almost had
Jamie Palisades: no factions
Jamie Palisades: and no candidates
Jamie Palisades: this shouold tell an open minded person something.
Jamie Palisades: Thankis, and done.
Cindy Ecksol scratches her head and wonders if what it shoudl "tell us" is that the SC needs to get its act together certifying the population list by the deadline
Jamie Palisades: heh - naah, not a jihad, just AA's option to leave again in a few months.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Miss LRA, can I just ask Jamie a question?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it's pertinent)
Carolyn Saarinen: AA used to have very productive town meetings
Jamie Palisades: Hopefully without scimitars
Cindy Ecksol: ok, gwyn, I'll allow it...
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* and that's why I'm not against the change; rather, I actually endorse it; just a clarification: are you suggesting that every RA member replacement becomes a by-election? (note: I think it's a good idea!)
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie if you will permit?
Carolyn Saarinen: then we joined this...system
Cindy Ecksol: I'll leave you on the floor....
Jamie Palisades: sure, Cindy
Cindy Ecksol: um...not exactly, but you understand
Cindy Ecksol: go ahead
Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
Gwyneth Llewelyn repeats: just a clarification: are you suggesting that every RA member replacement becomes a by-election, since it worked fine in the past? (note: I think it's a good idea!)
Micael Khandr: Cough, cough . . .
Keila Forager: I think that's a great idea
Jamie Palisades: Gwyn, I think that would be the outcome of the current draft, anD yes,m I thikn it would work.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: All righty! Thanks... because that might be the only objection I had, to be honest...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, keeping my mind open, I don't have any *rational* reason left lol
Jamie Palisades: (If the RA did something later to adjust it like, don;t bother filling terms within a month f the elections, well, fine, but that's the sort of thing with which we fiddle)TED TO DO SOMETHING WITH SHORT V
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (lots of emotional ones, though! haha )
Jamie Palisades: (sorry, bad keyboard day) SO what's the irrational reason?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I sort of pointed it out... unlike Rose, I think we'll have a totally fragmented RA which will be unmanageable,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 11 points of view to reconcile instead of just 3
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But
Soro Dagostino: Sorry I missed the convo -- bad reboot.
Rose Springvale raise hands
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's just speculation
Gwyneth Llewelyn: not a valid, rational reason
Jamie Palisades: Unlike today's RA, or, say, 2007's? I thought we decided we were ALL socialists 3 meetings ago I could sing the Internationale
Cindy Ecksol: all right...let's see
Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I won't let it interfere ))
Cindy Ecksol: Rose, question for Jamie? I'll let him keep the floor if so....
Rose Springvale: no comment independent
Cindy Ecksol: ok...then please wait for the queue
Jamie Palisades: Done then, thx
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Patroklus Murakami
Cindy Ecksol: pat?
Rose Springvale: seems like the que doesnt' apply to everyone
Patroklus Murakami: i'll pass, i was going to rant about how jamie's explanation of political apathy is entirely wrong but.... i'll save it for another day!
Soro Dagostino: It won't let me talk.
Soro Dagostino: The Que.
Cindy Ecksol: so done pat?
Patroklus Murakami: done
Jamie Palisades: you, me, the pub, after the meeting
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Cindy Ecksol: if so stui I think you're next
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have already spoken thusly but I think it warrants the indulgence of repetition so indulge me, tis the season for over-indulgence: Apathy if it is there, and can be seen to be in existence, is often as a silent protest and as a result of lacking relevance within a political system or community. Also Apathy can be worsened by being acknowledged as it becomes almost like a contagious trend, "why should I bother if the rest are not?" if we are to recognise a state of apathy then we would be best advised to make changes to see if we can affect a reinvigoration, rather than simply making an excuse of its source and using it as a provocation to continue as we have previously. Interest is engendered by freshness not staleness, if we so treasure the stale environment, are we going to spring clean this year or learn to love the cobwebs? Laziness is not apathy, fear of change is not apathy, but being completely disinterested in the merits of action, that is apathy. BUT AS A NEW OBSERVATION:
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: StuiChicanne Darkstone
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that there is a presently unremarked aread of this discussion
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (I definitely agree that the true measure of "apathy" is not allowing things to change at all in search of a solution to apathy ? that is, in a way, one of the primary, rational reasons for agreeing with experimenting with a different model)
StuiChicanne Darkstone: along the lines of if there is an issue completely unrepresented by a factions manifesto but that is close to the heart of the participant citizen... how is he or she to be heard except by allowance of their owning faction ?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: done
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I could clarify my meaning
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but I don't think it needs to be quite so blunt
Cindy Ecksol: ok, thanks
StuiChicanne Darkstone: actually I'm gonna hang my hat on it
Cindy Ecksol: three mor ein the queu, and then I think we need to move on.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Keila Forager
Cindy Ecksol: keila?
Keila Forager: A comment about "apathy". How can it be apathy if the people don't have the information or have it in a timely manner. That's just unimformed, not apathy. I've read the forums , and portal and have come to meetings. I have only a couple friends in my list from CDS and aside from them, no one has approached me about CDS except for them. They know who they are. How do new citizen's know about things if someone doesn't tell them. I knew about the democracy and forums and factions from the time I spent here before becoming a citizen. And I have spent much more time than I should have looking for the information and some is not available or correct , but that is another discussion.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and say think of a gay conservative on thatcher's bench
Keila Forager: And lastly ( for now ..hehe).....if RA members have to be part of a faction to be elected, and the majority of citizens are not part of a faction. Who does the RA represent? The factions or or the citizens? To me it sounds like the RA is representing the factions or themselves. How many of you go out and speak to the residents about the issues and their opinions. Unless I speak to one of you, I am the one usually expressing my opinion. That makes me sad..especially since I like living here.
Pip Torok: Fair point, Stui, iyo is it covered by "Citizens' Concerns" in an agenda?
Keila Forager: that's it for now..
StuiChicanne Darkstone: if they want to come at the end of every meeting yes Pip I believe it could be
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Keila
Micael Khandr: clap, clap
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but not exactly satisfactory a solution is it ?
Cindy Ecksol applauds keila
Jamie Palisades smiles.
Gwyneth Llewelyn blames herself for not doing more to keep citizens like Keila informed
Jamie Palisades: Remember when you clap what that tells you about factions
Keila Forager: I can be a pain in the ass when I want to be..LOL
Keila Forager: or a pain in the RA..LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha ? join our faction then
Cindy Ecksol smiles
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we're certified pains in the asses to everybody
Keila Forager: Read up to my opinion on factions..
Cindy Ecksol: jamie, tells me that factions have been apathetic, not doing the job they should be
Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
Cindy Ecksol: oh my!
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cindy Ecksol: thanks keila....
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Micael Khandr
Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks indeed
Pip Torok: Isn't ANY RA's primary responsibility to represent _every_ resident of CDS?
Cindy Ecksol: Micael?
Micael Khandr: Thanks, Cindy.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (technically, yes, Pip!)

(continued)

[Cindy Ecksol]

(continued)

Keila Forager: Yes, Pip, but I don't see that happening.
Carolyn Saarinen knew that was a smart party invite
Keila Forager:
Micael Khandr: With respect for all of you, I wanted to restate my point.
Jamie Palisades: iuf they talk to anyone outside their faction, yes
Micael Khandr: Unless every decision is brought to a vote of the people, then the RA is here to make decisions on their behalf, after being elected to do so.
People do what they do (as in RL), and elect us to protect the common good in a community (hopefully, like RL as well).
Faction policy ?forces? those of us who do not like factions to work in them?and we have a right to not work in them (without having to create a ?factionless faction?). From my vantage point and perspective, it is oppressive to force me into a faction in order to participate.
Done.
Cindy Ecksol: thanks micael
Micael Khandr: Done
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Rose Springvale
Cindy Ecksol: Rose?
Keila Forager: Do you vote within your faction or how you want?
Cindy Ecksol: (and then we need to move on)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (depends on the faction, Keila)
Rose Springvale: thanks,(and wonders why soro didn't get qued)
Cindy Ecksol: (he didn't want to be)
Rose Springvale: Stui's point is the only reason i ever joined a faction. if you were not in one, your issues never made it to the floor.
Pip Torok: Me.. I vote how I want after a faction's colleagues 2nd opinion
Rose Springvale: no one is asking to outlaw factions. if they work for you, great.. they will continue and as a group, continue to elect reps. but for the 80+ people who are not factioned... there is a problem. thye joined a democracy. don't you see there to be some irony there? those who don't like politics DON"T join CDS!
Rose Springvale: please pip
Rose Springvale: replacements..okay, by elections work, but right now we send the question to factions, (who at best represent a third of our voters,) where 10% or less of our population makes the decision. keep a list of candidates, take the next in line.. maybe so long as they got 10%
Rose Springvale: it truly upsets me to hear you call our citizens apathetic. I know so many things people want to do, care about passionately
Patroklus Murakami wonders what percentage of the population are members of political parties in RL...
Rose Springvale: and they neve seem to get a forum, because frankly, we are working on rules all the time
Micael Khandr: clap, clap
Cindy Ecksol: finished rose?
Carolyn Saarinen: Damn straight
Rose Springvale: i'll stop. but will note soro said the queue wouldn't recognize him
Cindy Ecksol: I spoke to soro...he does not wish to queue
Rose Springvale: ok.
Soro Dagostino: Gave up
Rose Springvale: more back room conversations. would like to see this as open forum
Cindy Ecksol: Soro, have you cahnged your mind?
Cindy Ecksol: if so, now's the time....
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I hate queuing but I still have to do it
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Eurodisney would be a farce otherwise
Cindy Ecksol: FYI, since soro was having trouble I offered to queue him after Rose)
StuiChicanne Darkstone: mickey mouse would be a bouncer
Cindy Ecksol: go ahead soro, you have the floor
Soro Dagostino: Still can't get in.
Cindy Ecksol: rose was going to be last, but you are now in....
Soro Dagostino: Ok.
Soro Dagostino: I believe that we should make a rule that if a citizen does not vote, they are banned from CDS
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Soro ))
Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*
Rose Springvale: then we need to have an objectors line on th ballot
Patroklus Murakami: /facepalm
Soro Dagostino: That everyone should vote.
Keila Forager: Then you won't have many left in CDS..LOL
StuiChicanne Darkstone: so CDS becomes a place where you have to log in weekly despite RL committments ?
Soro Dagostino: And factions should be parties.
Sterling Troughton: The USSR got 99%
Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers* at the turn of events...
Soro Dagostino: And anyone with 10 nominations ought to be able to rune.
Gwyneth Llewelyn is almost, almost going Godwin here...
Cindy Ecksol: done soro?
Soro Dagostino: yes
Micael Khandr: Call the vote, please.
Cindy Ecksol: if so, I need a motion to end debate....and a second
Soro Dagostino: so move
Micael Khandr: second
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds
Cindy Ecksol: I see several queued with discussion?
Cindy Ecksol: do we conclude debate or continue, that's the question
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah... right
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, I didn't see the queue
Micael Khandr: Conclude debate--
Cindy Ecksol: ok, all in favor of concluding debate please say "aye"
Jamie Palisades: you have a motion to decide that quetsion and can vote on it ...
Cindy Ecksol: all opposed "nay"
Micael Khandr: aye
Soro Dagostino: aye
Sonja Strom: nay
Gwyneth Llewelyn: nay (simce there are 3 people on the queue)
Pip Torok: nay
Cindy Ecksol: nay
StuiChicanne Darkstone: if I abstain will I still be an RA member ?
Cindy Ecksol: yes, stui, you may abstain
Jamie Palisades: only if you join a faction
StuiChicanne Darkstone: or will I be propelled into the metaverse at the earliest opportunity ?
Carolyn Saarinen: aye
Rose Springvale: beheaded
Jamie Palisades: oo we need a machine like that, CIn
Keila Forager: Yes, it's good
StuiChicanne Darkstone: EJECTOR SEAT !
Cindy Ecksol: ok, arria? joa?
Carolyn Saarinen: ELECTOR SEAT
Cindy Ecksol: right now 3-3-1
Micael Khandr: Wow . . .
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I saw 4 nays
Gwyneth Llewelyn: [10:40] Sonja Strom: nay
[10:40] Llewelyn: nay (simce there are 3 people on the queue)
[10:40] Torok: nay
[10:40] Ecksol: nay
Cindy Ecksol: did I miss one?
Cindy Ecksol: ah, ok....
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Micael Khandr: Yes--there are 4 nays
Cindy Ecksol: I'm going to allow discussion to continue then.
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Jamie Palisades
Cindy Ecksol: Jamie?
Micael Khandr: Agreed
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I could be awkward and turn my A to a aye *LOL*
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but I wouldn't be that mischievous
StuiChicanne Darkstone: would I ?
Cindy Ecksol: (wouldn't matter, stui -- motion would still fail)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you would haha
Jamie Palisades: right. i want to apologize for being a part of the problem here by bringing this idea late in the term.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: *smirks*
Jamie Palisades: i suspect its timing is part of the issue
Jamie Palisades: still, i felt i need to offer it while I was around and able to do so.
Soro Dagostino: Hmmmmmm ???
Jamie Palisades: however and whenever CDS decides to take it up,
Jamie Palisades: Let me echo Michel and Rose's very important last point. In CDS non-faction-joiners -- the majority of our residents! -- are POWERLESS. They can't even select RA members (factions can freely substitute anyone, even morons or mean people, for the named candidates). It is a CLUB system. Many of its current leaders are nice people. But the MODEL is exclusionary. It should go.
Jamie Palisades: Thanks cheers
Cindy Ecksol: thanks
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Soro Dagostino
Jamie Palisades: Soro, I;m active this term, just donlt kjnow about next one
Cindy Ecksol: Soro? did you have another comment?
Soro Dagostino: I agree with Jamie
Keila Forager: Me too
Micael Khandr: me three
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cindy Ecksol: now now, friends...
Patroklus Murakami: it would be simpler just to reduce the number of ppl needed to form a faction to one
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Sonja Strom
Cindy Ecksol: Sonja?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'll be a moron next term and break with being serious as I always am
Patroklus Murakami: then they wouldn't be a club
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (good point, Pat )
Sonja Strom: What is being talked about here would be a fundamental change to the structure of the CDS electoral system.
Jamie Palisades: and any individual would be able to freely substittue a mad dgo for himself?
Soro Dagostino: Great!
Sonja Strom: Although there are aspects of this change I do not like so much,
Sonja Strom: it might be a good idea,
Jamie Palisades: (sorry)
Sonja Strom: and I am taking this change into careful consideration.
Sonja Strom: I have paid close attention to the views of everyone here about it,
Sonja Strom: which I want everybody to know for certain.
Carolyn Saarinen: yes Sonja
Sonja Strom: In theory could support this change in an overall sense,
Sonja Strom: but I am not ready to support putting it into place for the elections this month.
Sonja Strom: I would, however,
Sonja Strom: support putting a question about this change on the ballot this month as a referendum question.
Sonja Strom: Thank you.
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Cindy Ecksol: thanks
Pip Torok agrees
Question Queue V 1.1: Next in queue: Cindy Ecksol
Cindy Ecksol: OK, that's me
Cindy Ecksol: I'd just like to say that I too am not completely opposed to changing the system.
Cindy Ecksol: I just don't think that today is the day to do it.
Cindy Ecksol: let's use the election process to discuss it....and introduce it early next term
Pip Torok supports Cindy in this
Cindy Ecksol: to facilitate that, can I get a motion to suspend discussion?
Rose Springvale: sigh
Pip Torok: so move
Cindy Ecksol: second?
Jamie Palisades: is that a do-a-referendum vote, cindy? or an indefinite table?
Rose Springvale: of course. self preservation over the good of the community?
Cindy Ecksol: only a "sense of the RA" vote jamie...
Rose Springvale: delay the election then, don't let this continue
Cindy Ecksol: is there a second to suspend?
Keila Forager: What don't you send out IM's or notecards to the citizens and see what they think??
Jamie Palisades: with the effect that the topic is shut down if you vote aye, correct?
Cindy Ecksol: (we still have to decide whether to meet again befor eelection)
Micael Khandr: Where I come from in RL there is an individual who undermines the common good by getting referendums on the ballot?doing away with certain taxes that support education, etc.
Referendums are not what we are about?a ?representative? assembly is.
We need to do our work as representativers.
Done
StuiChicanne Darkstone: am I right in thinking we'd have to suffer factions for another full term?
Cindy Ecksol: yes, stui...if we suspend today and do not vote next time.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: or would we have to rely upon the dissolution of the RA being voted thru ?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and then everything being re-elected
Cindy Ecksol: or if we vote today but odify the proposal to apply next election
StuiChicanne Darkstone: seems a long winded approach
Cindy Ecksol: as I commented earlier, there IS such a thing as too much haste
Micael Khandr: You have no second to suspend.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: can we not schedule extra meetings ?
Cindy Ecksol: no, no second...
Jamie Palisades smiles. Ladies and Gentlemen, you do hot have the votes to pass the motion today. Especially with Cindy switching . You might try to see if you can agree on whether to put it on the ballot as referenda
StuiChicanne Darkstone: rather than delay
StuiChicanne Darkstone: be proactve
Cindy Ecksol: a motion to terminate discussion?
Rose Springvale: but then, what would the faction want? have they been polled?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I pass a motion to schedule more meetings
StuiChicanne Darkstone: to discuss this
Cindy Ecksol: (we're really short on time)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd second that, Stui!
StuiChicanne Darkstone: more meetings
Cindy Ecksol: one thing at a time...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I want more meetings
Cindy Ecksol: if you want to have another meeting, we'll deal with that next
Cindy Ecksol: right now I need Pp's motion withdrawn....
StuiChicanne Darkstone: it relates directly
Cindy Ecksol: and a motion to terminate THIS discussion on amendment
StuiChicanne Darkstone: we can hold more meetings and resolve it this way
Pip Torok: i withdraw the motion
Cindy Ecksol: stui, if you believe that then move to suspend discussion NOW and then when that's approved you can move to schedule another meeting
StuiChicanne Darkstone: everyone up for more meetings ?
Carolyn Saarinen looks around in bewilderment
Pip Torok: i am Stui
Cindy Ecksol: !!
Cindy Ecksol bangs gavel
Arria Perreault: I am too
Cindy Ecksol: STUI!
StuiChicanne Darkstone: you know you are dying to see me again
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Cindy
Cindy Ecksol: IF you want to have another meeting, please move to suspend discussion now...and someone needs to second
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but this is part of the discussion
Cindy Ecksol: THEN move to schedule another meeting...and someone needs to second
Arria Perreault: there was a second
StuiChicanne Darkstone: in my eyes
Micael Khandr: who?
Cindy Ecksol: ok....
Arria Perreault: Gwyn
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I do not see the necessity to suspend
Cindy Ecksol: Pip, can I have your motion to suspend again please?
Arria Perreault: I am ready to second too
StuiChicanne Darkstone: when this suggestion is related to the open discussion
Carolyn Saarinen: I did something bad in another life, I'm trapped here forever..
Pip Torok: i propose to suspen the discussion
StuiChicanne Darkstone: it is a way of resolving the issue
Cindy Ecksol: Stui, if we don't suspend, we need to terminate discussion and vote up or down
Cindy Ecksol: if you want to continue discussion, need to suspend
StuiChicanne Darkstone: but
Cindy Ecksol: no buts!
Cindy Ecksol: let's do it!
StuiChicanne Darkstone: what about more meetings ?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I always have a but
Micael Khandr: big one
Cindy Ecksol: yes, mor emeetings if we suspend and majority agrees!
Rose Springvale: move to amend th motion to suspend to have it suspend until... then pick a date
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sometimes with two TT
Cindy Ecksol: (and I think they do)
Cindy Ecksol: so let's do it....
Sterling Troughton: second
Rose Springvale: lol
Jamie Palisades: (no guarantee STui, our LRA has asked to freeze the topic before agreeing to more meetings)
Cindy Ecksol: motion to suspend discussion please?
Rose Springvale: sterling, we dont' get to vote or move. but hey, its a free for all ...
Cindy Ecksol: OR motion to conclude discussion....
StuiChicanne Darkstone: people on the RA are interested in more meetings
Cindy Ecksol: either one is fine with me about now...
Jamie Palisades: you've had, ah, three of such motions ::)
Cindy Ecksol: no, Pip withdrew.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: so we should schedule more meetings
Rose Springvale: he offered the motion again
StuiChicanne Darkstone: as we are all here
Cindy Ecksol: other motions are not proper until we suspend or vote
Cindy Ecksol: *sigh*
Mikelo Serevi: I don't see what the rush is anyway
Cindy Ecksol: ok, Second for Pip's motion to suspend please?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine in seconding it.
Cindy Ecksol: thank you!
Gwyneth Llewelyn:
Jamie Palisades: 2 then he re-moved at 10:55
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor of suspending?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye, sure...
Pip Torok: aye
Cindy Ecksol: say Aye, opposed say nay
Micael Khandr: nay
Cindy Ecksol: aye
Soro Dagostino: nay
StuiChicanne Darkstone: NAY
Sonja Strom: aye
Joaquin Gustav: nay
Arria Perreault: abstains
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I want more meetings
Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the next motion...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4-4-1?
Cindy Ecksol: I get 4-4-1 right now.....motion to suspend fails
StuiChicanne Darkstone: the process here sometimes amazes me
Patroklus Murakami sympathises with the LRA
Cindy Ecksol: ok, kids...motion to CLOSE DISCUSSION AND VOTE please!
Carolyn Saarinen: aye, since we seem bogged down in protocol. Why don't these meetings DO anything anymore
Keila Forager: amazing isn't the word..LOL
Cindy Ecksol: sigh...
Keila Forager: cartoonish is more like it..hehe
Cindy Ecksol: ah, ok, Caro just voted to suspend....motion carries.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I prefer just to be sensible
Cindy Ecksol: STUI! motion to schedule another meeting please!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok
Carolyn Saarinen: This is ridiculous
Sonja Strom: I move to vote on the constitutional amendment.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
Cindy Ecksol: (wait sonja -- motion to suspend just carried)
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I pass a motion to have more meetings about the previous subject
Cindy Ecksol: ok, second for stui?
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Stui
Sonja Strom: oh, okay, sorry - I thought you said it did not carry.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: even though I'm somewhat mystified by the need to do it this way
Cindy Ecksol: all in favor say aye, all opped to more meetings say "nay"
Carolyn Saarinen: more meetings about meetings?
Arria Perreault: aye
Micael Khandr: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
Sonja Strom: aye
Pip Torok: aye
Cindy Ecksol: (another meeting to finish discussion th eamendment)
Joaquin Gustav: aye
Cindy Ecksol: whew!
Cindy Ecksol: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was tough
StuiChicanne Darkstone: AYE AYE AYE
Soro Dagostino: aye
Cindy Ecksol: yeah!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow, unanimous and all
Cindy Ecksol: ok, when would you like to meet?
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Nay on this motion and closing and all that mallarky
Carolyn Saarinen: what the Hell WAS that?
Micael Khandr: Later today?
Gwyneth Llewelyn seconds Micael
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Arria Perreault: we can doddle
Gwyneth Llewelyn is free anyway....
Arria Perreault: I am not free
Gwyneth Llewelyn: sorry, Arria
Cindy Ecksol: 10th or 17th
Cindy Ecksol: shall we doodle?:
Rose Springvale: before the election.
Arria Perreault: yesssssss
Cindy Ecksol: of course...
Joaquin Gustav: I must go sorry, see you later , thank you
Carolyn Saarinen: Not only am I not free, I'm going to start charging for attending these things!
Rose Springvale: thanks Joaquin
Jamie Palisades: Well, either use Cindy's doodle web tool, or someone move to set it for the 10th or 17th
Micael Khandr: 10th--so moved
Cindy Ecksol thought she was finally done...
Pip Torok: second
Cindy Ecksol: let's hear "aye" for those who are ok with the 10th....
Cindy Ecksol: aye
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am happy for meetings before the next election
Micael Khandr: aye
Pip Torok: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with the 10th, so, sure ? aye !
Soro Dagostino: aye
StuiChicanne Darkstone: baa !

(continued)

[Cindy Ecksol]

(continued)

Arria Perreault: aye
Sonja Strom: aye
Cindy Ecksol: lol!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: rofl
Sonja Strom: lol
Cindy Ecksol: thank yo uall
Carolyn Saarinen: Two hours of my life went away and nothing happened! Call a doctor
Cindy Ecksol: concerns of citizens? anoouncements?
Jamie Palisades: thats 7 aye, 1 rofl and 1 baa
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha
Rose Springvale: raises hand
Keila Forager: Yes, just one
Cindy Ecksol: rose?
Rose Springvale: keila first
StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have watched westminster
Rose Springvale: i'll wait
Arria Perreault: raises hand
Cindy Ecksol: ok, keila
Keila Forager: Thanks Rose..
Jamie Palisades: are you adjourned? Rose may have announcements
StuiChicanne Darkstone: baaing seems to be the order of the day there
Carolyn Saarinen: Baa-ing or Being
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and you can fiddle your expenses there too
Keila Forager: Mostly about the issue of faction..and any other issues the RA has to deal with..
Keila Forager: Why don't you send out IM's or notecards to the citizens and see what they think?? You are supposed to be THEIR representive! And if you don't know who the citizens are, think outside the box. Look at the citizens in groups, on the tier boxes, on about land tab, at least until you get a list.
Carolyn Saarinen: It's am Existential crisis
Cindy Ecksol: ok, thanks keila....
Cindy Ecksol: rose?
Rose Springvale: three things
Rose Springvale: first, every member of the CDS government has Blue notice rights
StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pass a motion to wish the RA a Happy STU Year... and saying what fun it has been this term
Rose Springvale: in CDS... and you SHOULD also be in AA to send them notices
Rose Springvale: i'm very discouraged that AA gets overlooked for notification and seemingly everythign else... still not showing up on the portal. but that's another issue
Arria Perreault: Keila, I ask for a list of citizen for a long time
Rose Springvale: what is a major concern of mine is the lack of due process, particularly in the SC
Keila Forager: Think outside the box guys..
Soro Dagostino: Keila -- be careful -- you will get elected to this zoo.
Rose Springvale: i would like to see the RA put together a commission to develop procedures for notification and public meetings for ALL branches.. as this issue has been a problem for three years now
Rose Springvale: second
Rose Springvale: We have had several new citizens join in the last month
Keila Forager: I'm not in a faction
Rose Springvale: hopefully you all will make an effort to meet them.
Rose Springvale: third
Carolyn Saarinen ponders The Wasp Option
Rose Springvale: the Coptic church has, as we knew it would
Rose Springvale: left the project upon purchase of their own sim
Mikelo Serevi: how are factions getting overlooked?
Rose Springvale: we are all invited to come see them in their new home, see me for a landmark.
Keila Forager will be quiet for a bit
Mikelo Serevi: Don't notices go out to citizens?
Jamie Palisades: (not if they are not sent, Mikelo)
Rose Springvale: done
Keila Forager: and not if you don't have them go to email or aren't in world to see them
Pip Torok: yes Mike, but not specifically soliciting their concerns or POV's
Patroklus Murakami: could we encourage former AA citizens to join the CDS group? then they would get the notices?
Rose Springvale: remember there are limits on factions as per email contact.
Rose Springvale: there are 342 members of the AA group
Rose Springvale: only about 150 in cds
Rose Springvale: when LL opens up groups, we can, until then
Rose Springvale: just send duplicate notices
Rose Springvale: or give them to someone who will.
Arria Perreault: can we have only one group for CDS. I thought we had merged.
Keila Forager: LOL, open up groups..laughs until falling on the floor..hehe
Rose Springvale: it isn't practical
Jamie Palisades listens, trying to find Rose's three points
Patroklus Murakami: why not encourage ppl to join the CDS group in order to receive messages? is there a problem with doing that?
Rose Springvale: especially until after july
Carolyn Saarinen: The AA group is far bigger than CDS
Cindy Ecksol also listening for points and waiting to close the meeting so she can drive across alligator alley
Keila Forager: why CDS group??
Keila Forager: AA has more members, merge to that one..
Rose Springvale: i believe they were all invited, but many already are at capacity
Arria Perreault: the CDS group is for CDS citizen
StuiChicanne Darkstone: we cannot dissolve AA
StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we do so
Keila Forager: and not enough groups
Keila Forager: I'm maxed out
Rose Springvale: what is wrong with duplicate notices? takes 10 seconds
Arria Perreault: if AA want to have a group for the events, it's something else
Carolyn Saarinen: Get an alt?
Patroklus Murakami: so what, the CDS group is for CDS notices. if u want to receive them, join the group and drop another one
Sonja Strom: AA is a part of the CDS, not the other way around.
StuiChicanne Darkstone: what happens in the event of possible demerging ?
Arria Perreault: did we merge or not?
Cindy Ecksol: there are other option....but how about we debate them at another time?
Jamie Palisades: AA has a large number of theme-interest people. CDS has MORE than citizens, also includes theme-interest people
Jamie Palisades: rose, that was your point 2?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, there is not a "citizen's group"
Cindy Ecksol: or after the meeting is adjourned?
Rose Springvale: then we should ask all cds people and all aa people to drop the group and create an AACDS group.
Keila Forager: I have an alt, but doesn;t do any good if it's not inworld
Micael Khandr: But AA is in a "test" period as part of CDS--in July, maybe we won't be . . .
Rose Springvale: if we "merge"
Soro Dagostino: Have to go, cooking brunch -- see you all . . .
Arria Perreault: CDS group is for CDS and AA is a part of CDS ...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie: [11:07] Rose Springvale: second
[11:07] Springvale: We have had several new citizens join in the last month
[11:07] Springvale: hopefully you all will make an effort to meet them.
Keila Forager: Bye Sors
Keila Forager: Soro
StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also you run a risk of leaving people recieving group messages about cultural stuff of which they have no interest (i.e Spam) and spam is a leading cause of people leaving groups
Cindy Ecksol: must run also....someone else can officially adjourn
Cindy Ecksol: bye all!
Micael Khandr: move to adjourn
Patroklus Murakami: bye cindy
Sonja Strom: bye Cindy!
Micael Khandr: second
Arria Perreault: I have an announcement too
Micael Khandr: all in favor dsay baaa
Micael Khandr: Sorry Arria
Gwyneth Llewelyn would like to hear Arria's announcement first...
Sonja Strom: Just let her say it...
Jamie Palisades: Thanks all Arria?
Micael Khandr: Please, Arria--justy joking . . .
Arria Perreault: it's not related to the RA. The Monastery is pleased to announce the opening of its new exhibition: Angels
Arria Perreault: come to visit
Carolyn Saarinen: falling asleep, move/vote to adjourn....
Sonja Strom: second
Micael Khandr: Aye
Sonja Strom: aye
Arria Perreault: aye
Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye ...
Sonja Strom: Thanks everybody for being here!