[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, exactly: like the rules of a sport.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: we have established that the jurisdiction that applies is Neufreistadt's own,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: so while in theory you *could* sue Sudane on any other court (RL I mean)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: I am trying to warn people that these are not just a model city's made up rules. Real property can be lost.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: that RL court would very likely not recognise the validity of your claims.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Exactly. That's precisely why we need a sophisticated judicial system.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, if you'd manage to convince that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: convince *a RL judge of that[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: No, you see a RL court would not consider any juristiction, they would just consider us a voluntary organization.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: and jon, real property can be lost now and on much shakier grounds. sudane can take my land back any time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The'd probably consider us a bunch of people who play a complicated computer game...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah. That was actually Ulrika's and Sudane's arguments, quite a while ago...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: But RL law does apply to voluntary organizatins.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, of course. Just as with sports [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: The question would be: "which RL law?" [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Pat, in theory you would have recourse in that case, as the organizarion violated its own bylaws.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But people don't go suing refarees (at least, not successfully) in actual courts when they disagree with their decisions, unless they're alledging that they're corrupt.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That's what the arbitration clause that I propose is for [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well, I think that Ashcroft is making a point.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I mean...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: *if* we have a sophisticated system working for Neufreistadt,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Red:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]wyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: there won't be "illegitimate" appropriation of property,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but fully documented cases pointing to the "whys" of appropriation.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Now, one might agree that these documents would be mostly worthless in some cases,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but at least they would be written according to an established procedure.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: And this procedure could be used as evidence[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: at least as strong as evidence presented by, say, an improptu volnteer organisation who has ejected a member for misbehaviour[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: according to their internal rules.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ahscroft, there is an implied contract here. I did not buy land to join a game, but to use it to develop 3d content.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But, you also agreed to be bound by our laws in that same contract.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Those laws include means by which all disputes are resolved.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, but not your new version of the law.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Oh? Why not??[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Ahh, but our laws also include procedures by which our laws are changed.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: No one has asked me yet.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: but jon, that must surely cover all new laws as well?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The ToS does not provide that the laws shall be static.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ok, I'm asking now [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Jon, why don't Ash's proposals include a means by which all disputes are resolved?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: The point I am trying to make, it that if you see us not as a model city game, but as a cooperative for buying server capacity for the members, this becomes much more complex. It is not as easy as saying, well, don't bother reading this long document.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I never said that what we were doing wasn't inherently complex [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And I never suggested to anybody that they don't read the ToS.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But can we not be a model city game *and* a co-operative for buying server capacity to play that game?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: aaah[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: so jon, do u see a potential issue when someone protests a nstadt court decision in a RL court?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Is a sports club not a game about (for example) kicking balls *and* a co-operative for buying the balls to kick?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DimGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Xantha Oe[/b:33l7r08l]: i don't see the two being that different[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: No, Jon, i don't think that anybody is suggesting people NOT to read things![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Rather the contrary... we'll encourage them to read...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, But Ashcroft we are specificly Not a role playing sim. This makes all the difference.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not sure that it does in the way that you think.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: ... but like in RL.... nobody can afford to read libraries packed-full of legal books[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It's conceivable that people could challenge anything that we do in a court, but a court would be very unlikely to inferfere with the internal affairs of compter-game players (however seriously that they took their game) unless there was something....[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: ...quite serious, such as real-world fraud, going on.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, though I feel a bit more comfortable not reading most of my local city ordinances, than signing a random contract proposed by 40 people.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The attitude of the courts is likely to be that people involved in such an enterprise have their own dispute-resolution mechanisms which, like the refaree, should normally be the exclusive means of resolving disputes.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not sure what you mean by that - you already do sign a contract (not a random one) proposed by those who represent 40 pepole..[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: unless we're talking megabucks, in which case ppl will use RL courts anyway![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, you are making a serious mistake about second life. Assuming it is a game only, and not a medium for expression and for business. For example we all are required to pay RL taxes on mony earned here.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But, remember, nobody has ever established that any of our items here have the status of real-world property.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That's not strictly true - you're required to pay RL taxes when, and only when, you cash in your Lindens.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, Lindon Labs has stated that about lindon dollars.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: You're paying taxes on the LindeX transactions, not on in-world transactions.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: If you use your Lindens to buy in-world luxuries, you're not taxed on them in the real world.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: indeed. ashcroft is right here. for example. protection of IP rights in virutal worlds is very much in its infancy[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ok... can we get back to the main point here?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Jon, what I understood is ? you're worried that things get so complex,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And IP rights are very different to actual property rights - you may not be able to copy my bench, but I can't stop you from deleting it from my land.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: that at some point people will never be able to grasp it fully,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: get us back on track gwyn [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and thus somehow sue us because we apply "arbitrary" laws that nobody knew they existed.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: In my mind, though, things will *always* get more complex, as we grow,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: so how can we prevent that from happening ? if at all?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: By making our laws non-arbitrary [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: I just want to say that I am a bit sceptical about this project if it cannot provide short, clear, and easy to understand explanations.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Complexity does not entrila arbitraryness.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Ahh, the mistake that you make is believing that law can ever be simple [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ash ? I agree with you, as you know, but I wanted to hear Jon's opinion.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: However simply written the texts are, the law itself will always be complicated.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Indeed, Jon, we can create a "NFS/CDS For Dummies Guide"[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: And we can do that in 2006[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: But in 2016, that will be impossible..[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, I want to see the guide! [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Indeed, the vagueness in a simple text creates more real complexities than the precision created by laws that anticipate the complexities in advance.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DimGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Xantha Oe[/b:33l7r08l]: has there been a lot of arbitration regarding this already?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Even though the latter look, on the surface, more complicated.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: ... as we're so fond of noticing every day with 'arbitrary' interpretations of the Constitution, for instance [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: no xantha, i don't believe there has [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: hehe not really, Xantha[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: This is just speculation [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DimGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Xantha Oe[/b:33l7r08l]: if scarcity becomes an issue presumably disputes would follow[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: But it *could* become a problem.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: indeed gwyn...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I suggest that a comprehensive and just internal legal system is the best solution [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: thus the CSDF point in making the Const clearer[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, but we are a group of 35 - 40 people. Can we afford it?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, that is *another* issue.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: What do you mean afford it? How much do you think that you're going to have to pay?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I call that "Rudy's argument". How much can we swallow at this time? [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: No "afford" in terms of time, complexity[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and people[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Gwyn, exactly.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: afford it in terms of people, time, effort....[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: are u talking about cost or complexity jon? aah gwyn's made the point[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: As I've said, we can start with two people, one part time.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: We need a Chief Judge/Chair of the Judiciary Commission, and one chief clerk.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: We also need a one-time courtroom build.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That's it.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: (Until we get bigger).[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: i don't think ash's proposal is overly complex[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Both. Eventually, perhaps, this can help expansion. But will it help us now?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not sure that I follow - how can a proper judicial system ever but help?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: well, the lack of a functioning legal system holds us back in several ways[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, how many hours do we expect the judge and clerk to spend each week?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: it means we lack the underpinning to a sound financial system[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: Ash what do you mean by part-time, please?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: we cannot offer dispute resolution services[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes. And the SC has currently a strongly-worded request to meet and establish their internal procedures.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: trying to understand the hours needed[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It's hard to tell at this point. That depends on the volume of litigation.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: hi rudy. welcome[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: hi Rudy [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: By part-time, I meant that the Chief Clerk could easily hold other CDS administrative posts, at least in the beginning, before we expand a great deal.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Olive:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Yogeswari Padar[/b:33l7r08l]: hi rudy[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Hello [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SandyBrown:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Rudy Ruml[/b:33l7r08l]: Hi people. Glad to joiin you.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: so it could actually be more people...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: there's spare crate by the table rudy [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Green:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ranma Tardis[/b:33l7r08l]: Hi Rudy [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: or more time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Also, remember that we're "competing" with lawless SL ? where LL hasn't a legal system of any sort, just an "abuse report system" without transparency and accountab ility, where everything is done in secret.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami will have to get more chairs [/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Eventually, when we had the resources, yes.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn sounds just like Prokofy[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Welcome, Rudy![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, in general people do not manage even some of the administrative posts for very long. As I am sure Gwyn can tell you.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: My point has always been that a functioning legal system could be a very big selling point for us.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SandyBrown:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Rudy Ruml[/b:33l7r08l]: Moon, thanks fo roinviting me. I?m not keeping up with events.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: welcome Rudy[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Olive:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Yogeswari Padar[/b:33l7r08l]: lol gwyn[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SandyBrown:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Rudy Ruml[/b:33l7r08l]: But the sminar haus is done, so more free time.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: yw rudy [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: brb[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That will be no more of a problem for the Chief Clerk than for the Burgermiester/Chancellor.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: ah, but the Chancellor will have a team of Civil servants[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Each of whom will have the same issue, presumably?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: If we can manage a team of civil servants *and* a Chancellor/Bugermeister, surely we can manage one part-time clerk![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, as things get more complex[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and lol[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft... i am trying to impress you with the notion that meetings take longer in Sl than irl[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: In effect everyone working here is doing so as a volunteer (even if receiving a very minor L$ payment.) And so I contunue to be worried about this.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I've noticed that..[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: the SC even has a budget voted for a civil servant, we just need to set its job description[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: and that you get a high rate of desistance after a few sessions[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not quite sure precisely what you're worried about...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: oh, i'll tell you[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Your concern seems to be the general fragility of any organisation in SL, not one specific to a judiciary.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: i am concerned is that you need someone fully available to the role, and that you cannot find him/her[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Or the amount of time that has to be spent on issues related to NFS in general?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: True, but that is not made any easier if extra tasks are added.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Which role? Chief Clerk?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well, that is true, Moon.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And why are you more concerned about that than you are about your team of civil servants?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: whichever, Ash - a general fraility doesn't mean it can't apply on this particular case[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn is currently *very* worried about the lack of a PR/marketing person[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And it doesn't mean that there's a reason to treat this particular case as different from any other.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: agrees with Moon[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The personnel fragility is a problem with all SL organisations, and it's one that we have to battle against.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: because the civil servants can possibly perform their tasks in a few hours every week, and you said: two roles, one in part time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But our system of formal government appointments is the most robust system so far invented to deal with it.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, actually, NFS was set up the way it was, exactly because of that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: aaah Moon[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I see your point![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: which leads me to conclude that the other role is full-time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: so u r worried that we'll be saddled with a complex shell if key ppl burn out/lose interest?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, the clerk could perform her or his role in a few hours a week, too, I imagine, for the time being.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, Ash, how many hours/week do you estimate for each?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: The real question is what are our priorities then, given that our labor resources are light and organizations are fragile.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: "few hours a week" is not part-time,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: By "full time", I'd mean doing only that, and no other official job.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: 20 hours per week is![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Not actually doing it 9-5 every day![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Example: our PR/marketing manager spent 20 hours/week just on NFS...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Goodness.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: hmmm[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: And that easily. Sometimes more.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Taht sounds like an awful lot of work.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Oh sure, Ash,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: planning events, getting in touch with hundreds of people,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: updating calendars, websites, forums...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That all sounds like far more work than all the judicial roles combined so far...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: It does? [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Great![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It would involve a judge/chair of the JC, who woudl decide cases and adminsiter the JC.([/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: i tend to go along with gwyn's 'suck it and see' approach[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Just the ball took perhaps 30-40 hours of organisation, development, planning, and deployment (2 people sharing the load)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: (There'd be more work at the beginning, getting things set up, but that'd be atypical)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The clerk would have to publish new judgments on the website, list court hearings, pass on documents to the judge, hand down official jdugments to the court...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: And to add to this, remember in-world organization can take a lot more time that RL[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The work would be intermittent, depending on the number of cases.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: what would be the alternative? put this on ice for few months while we sort out CN?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Pat, ever the pragmatist [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, we can delay things,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I don't see how that would help.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: although I personally worry about it.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: i think we would lose momentum[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I mean, the timing is right. We now have covenants on the new group tools,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The point is that a judicial system could help to attract new people.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: but i'm repeating points i made last week[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and nobody ? except us! ? knows what to do about them[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It'd be a selling point.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: LOL![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well, it's true...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: well, you have a point there Gwyn[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'd never thought of it like that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: ... also, you might have notices that people are itching about what Chili Carson and her proposed Chamber of Commerce will be doing,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: I think I would be okay with going ahead with it experimentally, however, I do want to continue to push the people involved to keep it simple, streamlined, and understandable.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and we have a somewhat working model for that, operational for 18 months or so[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: As I said, law can never be simple, no matter how hard one tries [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Law can be *clear*[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: not simple [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: i do agree that you must have a simple explanation for possible interested people[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Law that looks simple is actually far more complex to apply than written laws that appear complex (unless they are complex by redundancy).[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: do we know what the dpu position is on your proposal ashcroft?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, Gwyn! Exactly.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, good question.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Moon has a point about a simple explanation.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: No - I don't think that they have open meetings like you do.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: now i am not talking about the finer points of legality, but of marketing[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: There's no harm in having a beginners' guide to our law [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: hehe, no comment ash [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The Judiciary Commission, after all, would have the power to publicise our legal system, and publicise us by publicising our legal system.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Dianne Mechanique[/b:33l7r08l]: I think Ashcrofts point aobut the problems with aparently simply stated laws puts its finger on many of the problems we ahve experienced in general[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: If we are talking about a system as heavy as say, my local city here, I will be dead-set against it. I think I would support experimentation, on the condition that the people involved try to keep it simple, streamlined, and understandable.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Thanks, Dianne. I do agree with you totally.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: well,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It'd be a common law system: its complexity would grow as we grew [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Olive:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Yogeswari Padar[/b:33l7r08l]: i agree with jon[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: once could discuss what procedures could be "shortened" to make Ash's proposal look more "pleasing"[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Since I have no idea how complex that your local laws are, I can't comment on that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but at some point, some things simply cannot be "cut".[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: They're one-liners, Ash [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: What are?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Our laws here at NFS[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, I noticed.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: So, Gwyn and Ash, do you want my support or not?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: There could be serious problems interpreting some of your statute.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: s.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Sure Jon [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Mind you,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I want your support for a workable judiciary [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I *also* agree that Ash's system is overkill[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: In what respects?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but I'm afraid that the alternative is having "nothing workable"[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well Ash,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It's designed to be scaleable [/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ash, the condition is that you try your best. Simple, streamlined, easily understood.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: way before you posted your loooong proposals,[/color:33l7r08l]