Poll: Would you consent to chat logs being used in Court?

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Would you consent to chat logs being used in Court?

Poll ended at Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:07 pm

Yes
2
29%
No
5
71%
 
Total votes: 7

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Patroklus Murakami
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Poll: Would you consent to chat logs being used in Court?

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

In putting together a comprehensive framework for our legal system, Ashcroft has proposed the following variation to the Neufreistadt/CDS Terms of Service:

[quote:2wzragh0]"By entering into this agreement, you hereby give your unqualified and irrevocable consent for any records of any conversations or other communication, in any form whatsoever, whether made before or after this agreement was entered into, to be used in evidence in any in-world judicial proceedings, and for any records of any in-world judicial proceedings (including records of anything said by or to you during those proceedings) to be made available to the public in perpetuity."[/quote:2wzragh0]

Would you consent to chat logs being used in Court in this way?

There is some discussion of the issues involved in this debate [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 2:2wzragh0]here[/url:2wzragh0] and [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 9:2wzragh0]here[/url:2wzragh0].

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Chicago Kipling
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Post by Chicago Kipling »

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think there is a middle road on this. Some chat logs are the equivalent of speaking in the public where any may listen and write down what is said. Others, especially when only one witness is present or when a device is used to record the incident are much more questionable in my mind.

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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

[quote="Chicago Kipling":24i2vzrz]I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I think there is a middle road on this. Some chat logs are the equivalent of speaking in the public where any may listen and write down what is said. Others, especially when only one witness is present or when a device is used to record the incident are much more questionable in my mind.[/quote:24i2vzrz]

Questionable in what sense?

Ashcroft Burnham

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Chicago Kipling
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Post by Chicago Kipling »

Ha, well we have a thread of talk about this. I would hate to clutter the forum too much. My post here was simply to suggest that there is a middle way - use of chat logs with pre-defined restrictions that guide the court's interpretation.

I won't presume to speak for my European and Asian friends or even for the brightest legal minds of the US, but it seems that this is rather a standard practice in my limited understanding of US practice. In fact, there was a recent US court decision regarding this wasn't there?

Anyways, more fodder for the other thread :twisted: I'm happy to speak of these things again over there if those statements weren't clear.

With my respect for you as always,
Chicago

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Jordan Witherspoon
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Post by Jordan Witherspoon »

Hello,

Ashcroft invited me to these forums. I'm not a member of your group and saw this matter was discussed at different places over the forums, but since that's about some other subjects as well, I'll post my reply here. If this is for some reason not the right place, please move this to the appropriate location.

My name is Jordan Witherspoon and I am the commander of the JAG-department of the Alliance Navy. For I assume some or many amongst you don't approve on combat groups in SL, I suggest we will leave that fact as it is.

Within our group, we use a procedure for juridicial investigations in which chatlogs can be used. Every case starts with a report, filed by a member concerning a breach of conduct of any other member(s). For this to be possible, we have ofcourse agreed on rules, which are in our lawbook.

Any report can be accompanied by chatlogs. They hold no formal ground in the investigation, but are a good way for the JAG's investigating the matter to get an overview of what's going on. Also, any accussee can name potential witnesses to the alleged violation.

When we start an investigation, we will talk to both accused and accussee, and all witnesses if necessary. Before we start those talks, we always ask the ones we speak to if they mind the chat being 'recorded' in a chatlog.

All of these chats together form our investigation, which we close by writing a report to our Admirals to consider. In our report we attach the logs for reference. More important we summarize our findings and suggest a verdict.

The point with the chatlogs is, that we consider them just as memories from the ones questioned. Everyone can alter a notecard with a chatlog, so in that case we can't compare them to taps or audio recordings in any way, which can be considered quite trustworthy. Also, when we ask someone what he or she heard during a conversation, it doesn't really matter whether that recollection comes from a notecard of someone's memory; in a sense that's what notecards are for.

Basically, it all comes down to the credibility of the accussed, accussee and witnesses, as it always does in the courtrooms. We try to do our best in determining that, but it can't be flawless as can no law system.

For us, this system works pretty good. Noone ever disapproved of the chatlog being used and never has anyone questioned what's what being said in them afterwards.

For those interested; our procedures and lawbook are public and can be obtained in the AN-JAG Office at Enceladus (151,48,100). Although it's a quiet part of the sim, beware that it's damage land and someone could ask you what your business is. As long as you don't carry any weapons you should be safe though ;-)

With kind regards,
Jordan Witherspoon

Distrust any wisdom of life that can be summed up into one sentence.[/size:3n6sxm3l]
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Ashcroft Burnham
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Post by Ashcroft Burnham »

Jordan,

thank you for posting :-) It is good to get others involved in the debate about our legal system. It is also most interesting to know how others do it elsewhere; your experiences in the JAG are no doubt valuable, even though there is a great difference between civilian and militery law.

I should be most interested in your input on other aspects of the legal system debate, too :-)

Ashcroft Burnham

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Chicago Kipling
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Post by Chicago Kipling »

Yes, thank you for participating here. Though my journey to your office the first time almost dropped me into a very deep canyon when the walkway malfunctioned :wink:, I did attain a copy of the documents you spoke of. I do think they can be a help here as we settle this matter.

I welcome your correction, but the main reference to chat logs I saw was in this section:
[quote:3t6l13o6]All reports will be filed as notecards, containing the following:
- the name of the AN member filing the report;
- the name(s) of the AN member(s) the report is concerning;
- the date of filing the complaint;
- the date on which the alleged violation took place;
- the location at which the alleged violation took place;
- an abstract of the alleged violation
- if applicable; a list of names of witnesses to the alleged violation
- any appendixes like chatlogs, snapshots, etc.[/quote:3t6l13o6]

In other words and as you said, the logs are submitted as evidence like any other available items and given no apparent weight over any other evidence.

Perhaps, Ashcroft, it's been my misunderstanding or my fear that the proposal you made would open the door to far more than that. When the rule of law demands a citizen give up certain rights, there is the possiblity that an unscrupulous judge (of which we hopefully will have none ever) might take this special provision to mean that these logs have greater weight than a recalled conversation.

Personally, I would be happy to let the courts and future RA sessions settle the more contentious issues of listening devices if we could drop your clause regarding chat logs. It seems this group has done well simply including the request of such logs in court procedures.

A good photograph is like a good hound dog, dumb, but eloquent. ~ Eugene Atget
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Jordan Witherspoon
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Post by Jordan Witherspoon »

Yes, the chatlogs can be a part of the report filed. The actual investigation however, starts after recieving the report. The chatlogs from the report filed form no part of the investigation. More exact; the whole filed report won't be in the closing report.

Like I said, they are only used for some reference. I won't say they will influence the course of our investigation, but they hold no formal ground.

Distrust any wisdom of life that can be summed up into one sentence.[/size:3n6sxm3l]
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