RA Meeting 7 march 2010: Transcript - Part 1

[mikeloserevi]

[9:04] Arria Perreault: Thank you for coming at the meeting. We can start
[9:04] Arria Perreault: I have published an agenda in the forum and this agenda is available in the amphora
[9:04] Arria Perreault: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2733
[9:06] Arria Perreault: We begin with the adminitrative part. First point: Get agreements to record session.
[9:06] Arria Perreault: Please clic on the recorder to consent to be recorded
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Thank you
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Second point: Review this agenda
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: these seats upset me
[9:07] Arria Perreault: Any remark or change?
[9:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: they cut thru my ankles
[9:08] Carolyn Saarinen: Oh I get that. It sizist!
[9:08] Arria Perreault: no changes?
[9:08] Arria Perreault: so I consider this agenda is ok.
[9:08] Mikelo Serevi: It looks good to me
[9:08] Arria Perreault: Next point: Inquire for speakers on today's agenda items.
[9:09] Soro Dagostino: Reserve
[9:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ha
[9:09] Lilith Ivory: Hi Fern
[9:09] Carolyn Saarinen: Hello Stui
[9:09] Jeroma Wycliffe: Fern
[9:09] Arria Perreault: who want to speak? I ask especially the non-RA members
[9:09] Pip Torok: hi everyone
[9:09] Timo Gufler: hi Pip and Fern!
[9:10] Arria Perreault: I notice that Soro has asked to speak. For wichi point, SOro?
[9:10] Carolyn Saarinen: you can sit on my knee if you like Stui
[9:10] Solomon Mosely: nice wig
[9:10] Soro Dagostino: All, it depends.
[9:10] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:10] StuiChicanne Darkstone: who is in a wig ?
[9:10] Solomon Mosely rolls his eyes...
[9:10] Carolyn Saarinen: Well my hair's my own
[9:11] Arria Perreault: Last point of the administrative part: Representative Assembly Rules of Procedure
[9:12] Arria Perreault: I would like to remind that these rules concern also the non-RA members. This is the text:
[9:12] Arria Perreault: All meetings of the RA will be public, and all citizens of CDS are welcome to attend and participate. Non-citizens are welcome too, but they should listen only, and not speak. If non-member residents disrupt proceedings, they should be subject to actions which may end in being Teleported Home and Banned from CDS.
[9:12] Arria Perreault: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=281
[9:12] Solomon Mosely: wow, i never saw that quoted in here before
[9:13] Carolyn Saarinen: So shaddap you citizens! :{
[9:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's part of the put up and shut up policy
[9:13] Solomon Mosely: is that a warning shot?
[9:13] Imotali Antiesse:
[9:13] Soro Dagostino: It applies only to non-citizens.
[9:13] Patroklus Murakami: "all citizens of CDS are welcome to attend and participate"
[9:13] Pip Torok: phone brb
[9:14] Arria Perreault: We alonly want to have our meetings in good conditions
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's rather a contradiction isn't it Pat ?
[9:14] Arria Perreault: every two weeks there are town halls
[9:14] Soro Dagostino: You can move to overule the chair if it becomes an issu.
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: no, not really
[9:14] Solomon Mosely: well, good thing we're discussing the terms of citizenship today
[9:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: participation in silence
[9:15] Arria Perreault: I have a last point: Gwyn has asked for a 7-days vote for all points to vote
[9:15] Carolyn Saarinen: mmph mmmph
[9:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like inaction but asking things to be done
[9:15] Solomon Mosely: what does that mean?
[9:15] Solomon Mosely: the 7 day vote...
[9:15] Mikelo Serevi: I don't appreciate people implying the RA is somehow repressive of free speech, We are most certainly not
[9:16] Solomon Mosely: hear hear mike
[9:16] Soro Dagostino: I think it is moving in that direction
[9:16] Solomon Mosely: thanks
[9:16] Arria Perreault: Gwyn has 7 days to cast her vote
[9:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone:
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: solo, it means we give ppl 7 days to vote on issues so that all RA members can vote
[9:16] Carolyn Saarinen: No, Gwyn doesn't want 7 day votes for me. So no 7 day votes for Gwyn. Move to vote on that!
[9:16] Arria Perreault: we can move to the items from the prior meeting
[9:16] Carolyn Saarinen: No, move to vote!
[9:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: second
[9:16] Patroklus Murakami: you are out of order caro
[9:17] Carolyn Saarinen: IHow so P at?
[9:17] Patroklus Murakami: you can't vote to deny someone a 7-day vote. read the rules of procedure
[9:17] Carolyn Saarinen: Gwyn is on record as wishing to deny me 7 day vores
[9:17] Solomon Mosely: were you actually denied 7 days?
[9:17] Patroklus Murakami: that's not really relevant caro
[9:17] Carolyn Saarinen: That is not the point
[9:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: CAro it's all in the interests of fairness isn't it ?
[9:18] Mikelo Serevi: We were moving on with last week's business, if caro and stui don't mind
[9:18] Carolyn Saarinen: No votes for anti-democrats
[9:18] Arria Perreault: a. Report of the Portal/Forum Workgroup (Keila Forager)
[9:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Arria is LRA
[9:19] Arria Perreault: I look in the public. Keila is not present to present her report
[9:20] Arria Perreault: I know that thw working group has met last week
[9:20] Arria Perreault: I was not able to attend, but the transcript is in the forum
[9:20] Solomon Mosely: pat, could you post a link to the procedures for 7-day votes, please?
[9:20] Solomon Mosely: i'm just curious now
[9:21] Arria Perreault: I propose we postpone this report for a next meeting if the working is still willing to present it.
[9:21] Patroklus Murakami: sure. let me find it first!
[9:21] Solomon Mosely: thanks pat
[9:21] Mikelo Serevi: That sounds reasonable, keila may not have realized she was on the agenda
[9:22] Arria Perreault: possible
[9:22] Arria Perreault: any second for this proposal?
[9:22] Mikelo Serevi: second
[9:22] Lilith Ivory: I´m IMing with her at the moment
[9:22] Arria Perreault: is she willing to come?
[9:23] Lilith Ivory: I gave her TP
[9:23] Mikelo Serevi: Even better
[9:23] Carolyn Saarinen: If Pat finds a procedure guareteeing 7 day votes for all RA members, I will move to censure Gwyn for proposing to deny me a 7 day vote.
[9:23] Lilith Ivory: Hi Keila
[9:23] Arria Perreault: ok
[9:23] Keila Forager: Hi still rezzing
[9:23] Arria Perreault: Keila, do you want to present your report now?
[9:23] Keila Forager: Sure..
[9:24] Arria Perreault: I propose we hear Keila
[9:24] Keila Forager: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2729
[9:24] Lilith Ivory: second
[9:24] Keila Forager: that is the link from the 3rd meeting..
[9:24] Arria Perreault: anyone ne against?
[9:24] Arria Perreault:
[9:25] Keila Forager: The 2nd meeting no one came to or responded to me..
[9:25] Arria Perreault: Keila, you have thee floor
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn arrives late and apologises... sorry all
[9:25] Keila Forager: although I missed it too due to rl issues..
[9:26] Mikelo Serevi: hi gwyn
[9:26] Keila Forager: We had a great mock up of what the portal could be from a citizen, but she has since left CDS..a few days before the meeting
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: who left Keila ?
[9:26] Keila Forager: I'm working on something now, which should do what we want..
[9:27] Keila Forager: Rather not say Stui...
[9:27] Keila Forager: and someone has been adding to the present portal but I have no knowledge of who..
[9:27] Keila Forager: they haven't contacted me ..
[9:28] Mikelo Serevi: incidentally, I may need access to it, as archivist
[9:28] Mikelo Serevi: I don't currently have access
[9:28] Keila Forager: Well I don't have access to the current one either
[9:28] Arria Perreault: I am surprised, Mikelo
[9:28] Keila Forager: and no idea who is working on it
[9:28] Keila Forager: no offense, but it's looking more and more clutttered
[9:28] Arria Perreault: I got a confirmation you had an acces from the webmaster
[9:29] Mikelo Serevi: I'll double check, no one contacted me
[9:29] Keila Forager: I will post a new meeting date and at that time will invite others to see what we are working on
[9:30] Keila Forager: I'm done
[9:30] Arria Perreault: Thank you, Keila
[9:30] Keila Forager: Questions?
[9:31] Arria Perreault: any questions from RA members to Keila?
[9:31] Mikelo Serevi: Sure, what sort of changes were you proposing to the existing site,?
[9:31] Arria Perreault: if it not the case, we wait for your invitation, Keila
[9:32] Arria Perreault: sorry, Mikela
[9:32] Keila Forager: I'm post the meeting time on the forum..
[9:32] Arria Perreault: Mikelo*
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: It's ok, I had my eyes elsewhere for a sec
[9:32] Mikelo Serevi: I mean in general, keila, are you thinking of changing the portal engine, or just the look?
[9:33] Arria Perreault: Keila?
[9:34] Keila Forager: keeping all the present info and addding spots for the community to contribute, so probably the whole thing, so it's easy to transfer administrative duties and easy for all to use
[9:34] Arria Perreault: an other question?
[9:34] Keila Forager: come to the next meeting if you are interested in helping...that is an open invitation for all
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "the whole thing", menaing abandoning Typo3 as engine, selecting a new one, and moving all content over? (sorry, I'm just rephrasing Mikelo's question to see if we understand that right)
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But granted... perhaps this would be better for the meeting...
[9:35] Keila Forager: yes
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, keila )
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you
[9:35] Arria Perreault: thank you again, Keila
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope that at least we get some design specs this time hehe
[9:35] Arria Perreault: Next point
[9:35] Keila Forager: bye
[9:36] Mikelo Serevi: Thank keila
[9:36] Lilith Ivory: bye Keila
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: thankyou Keila
[9:36] Pip Torok: bye Keila
[9:36] Arria Perreault: b. Report of the Town Hall Meeting
[9:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and have a good evening
[9:36] Arria Perreault: bye Keila
[9:36] Arria Perreault: Pat, can you say some words about Town Halls? We had already two
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami: sure
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *giggles*
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: i'll look to solomon to fill in on some of the details
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: we had a good discussion at last week's meeting about commerce in the CDS
[9:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: *thinks of rhyming slang*
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: we talked about having a kiosk/business board in each sim to advertise businesses
[9:37] Mikelo Serevi: Kindly don't disrupt, stui
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: and solomon has called meetings to revive the CDS Traders' Association to get business input into these ideas
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: that's all from me on the last meeting
[9:38] Arria Perreault: thank you, Pat
[9:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Mikelo - I am constantly reminded of the need for humour at these proceedings
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:39] Arria Perreault: I think the Town Halls a re a good experienc
[9:39] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if the LRA permits I shall be amusing
[9:39] Arria Perreault: we can move to new items
[9:39] Arias Ahren: Yes: A good laugh every now and then would be wonderful.
[9:39] Solomon Mosely: and not a bailiff...
[9:40] Arria Perreault: a. Compatibility between the position of caretaker and RA membership
[9:40] Arria Perreault: I give the word to our Chancellor, as it is a request from her
[9:40] Arria Perreault: Sonja, you have the floor
[9:41] Sonja Strom: Honourable Members of the RA...
[9:41] Sonja Strom: for the past couple of years Lilith Ivory and I have been the Caretakers in the CDS.
[9:42] Sonja Strom: This is a position reporting to the Executive Branch,
[9:42] Sonja Strom: that is the Chancellor.
[9:42] Sonja Strom: As I am now Chancellor I will still be doing the duties of this role of Caretaker,
[9:43] Sonja Strom: but will not actually have that position,
[9:43] Sonja Strom: as a civil servant.
[9:43] Sonja Strom: Now Lilith has become a member of the Representative Assembly.
[9:44] Carolyn Saarinen: Can an elected official also hold a appointed post?
[9:44] Sonja Strom: Both she and I would like for her to continue in her role of Caretaker,
[9:44] Sonja Strom: but we are bringing this as a request to the RA, that she have allowance from the RA to be in both roles -
[9:44] Patroklus Murakami: what does the role of Caretaker involve?
[9:44] Sonja Strom: RA Member and Caretaker.
[9:44] Sonja Strom: I see no reason not to allow someone to be both a caretaker and a RA member
[9:45] Sonja Strom: as the Caretaker makes no decisions about anything.
[9:45] Sonja Strom: The Caretaker simply removes litter on public land,
[9:45] Sonja Strom: notifies private land owners if it seems like litter might be on their land,
[9:46] Sonja Strom: and helps the Chancellor to keep the community good looking and working well.
[9:46] Sonja Strom: Lilith has been a wonderful Caretaker up to now,
[9:46] Sonja Strom: and it is my hope and request that the RA will support her continuing to be.
[9:47] Sonja Strom: Thank you.
[9:47] Mikelo Serevi: It doesn't sound like a conflict of interest
[9:47] Pip Torok: Like Sonja, I see no conflict
[9:47] Mikelo Serevi: I move to allow the dual roles for Sonja and Lilith
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: i can't really see a problem with this
[9:47] Carolyn Saarinen: It ain't broke, why fix it?
[9:47] Pip Torok: second
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my. This is a tricky one. In fact, I'd say it's something for the SC to untangle. You see, the issue is that RA members ought not to be civil servants
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I'll hush and abstain on the legalities... hehe
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: umm
[9:48] Arria Perreault: we have to vote now
[9:48] Pip Torok: please yes
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: ell, legalities ae what this RA is for, right?
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: do ewe arria?
[9:48] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: gwen,
[9:48] Arria Perreault: the SC can veto our decision
[9:48] Pip Torok: aye
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: we're in a vote. i vote aye
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Arria.
[9:48] Solomon Mosely: what conflict is there for those of us that dont know it?
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains
[9:49] Arias Ahren: Aye
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: ahh... of course, the sc
[9:49] Lilith Ivory: abstains
[9:49] Gelf Yalin: well, I think we have to be realistic that we dont have a community of thousands...so people are going to sometimes have to do duel roles if things are to work...even in in RL it probably wouldnt be allowed
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: the sc
[9:49] Gelf Yalin: aye
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: is wnyone here on the sc?
[9:49] Solomon Mosely: anyone*
[9:50] Carolyn Saarinen: as I said, 'ain't broke' vote aye.
[9:50] Arria Perreault: we are still voting
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: anyone?
[9:50] Sylvia Tinkel: if it's illegal the vote wouldn't count though
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: solomon, perhaps you could follow up with gwyn after the meeting?
[9:50] Sylvia Tinkel: whether it's aye or not
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: and i am still asking about who here is on the sc
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: sure
[9:50] Solomon Mosely: we'll deal with legal formalities after the legal formalities
[9:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: don't think there is an SC present
[9:51] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[9:51] Sylvia Tinkel: Gwyneth as former Dean and longest standing member would have the best insight into the possible illegality
[9:51] Solomon Mosely: none that matter for 5 more months
[9:51] Mikelo Serevi: Who is left to vote?
[9:51] Arria Perreault: Stui, Timo, Imotali and I
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, thanks, Sylvia, but my opinion as "former Dean" doesn't matter much lol
[9:52] Timo Gufler: aye
[9:52] Mikelo Serevi: I'm sure we all value your opinion, gwyn, and don't intend to step on any toes
[9:53] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike
[9:53] Arria Perreault: we have 6 aye, 2 abstains until now (so motion carries)
[9:53] Arria Perreault: I vote aye
[9:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[9:54] Imotali Antiesse: i vote aye, for now
[9:55] Mikelo Serevi: If it turns out this vote was inappropriate somehow, I'm sure we can roll it back, or be overridden by the SC
[9:55] Arria Perreault: thank you, I have casted all votes
[9:55] Arria Perreault: 9 aye and 2 abstains
[9:56] Solomon Mosely: good point, the sc
[9:56] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[9:56] Solomon Mosely: when was thier last bi-weeklymeeting?
[9:56] Lilith Ivory: if it turns out to be illegal I´m willing to step back from tht office any time
[9:56] Solomon Mosely: perhaps the reformation of the sc would be in order
[9:56] Arria Perreault: The RA doesn't see any problem if one RA member is caretaker. The SC can take an other decision of course
[9:57] Solomon Mosely: what sc?
[9:57] Mikelo Serevi: It doesn't strike me that cleaning up will lead to corruption, but one never knows
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Solomon!!!!
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn *shakes head*
[9:57] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ㋡
[9:57] Pip Torok tries to stop guffaw
[9:57] Arria Perreault: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=sc0
[9:58] Sonja Strom: hahaa
[9:58] Solomon Mosely: sorry, i just dont see any posts from them since the election announcements
[9:58] Arria Perreault: The portal has a lot of information, including a description of the Scientific Council
[9:58] Sylvia Tinkel: they don't have to post to exist
[9:58] Solomon Mosely: and if they are the gaurdians of cds law, maybe we need tehm to be active
[9:58] Sylvia Tinkel: or meet
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: solomon, perhaps you could follow up with an SC member after this meeting?
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: but they have to post their meetings
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: well, i bring it up now, beacusae
[9:59] Solomon Mosely: who do they answer to?
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn polishes the old Impeachment Wand, "Mmmh... still working, goodie"
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: no one
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sylvia!
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[9:59] Arria Perreault: members of SC: Aliasi Stonebender as Dean, Delia Lake, Claude Desmoulins, Danton Sideways and Dnate Mars
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel:
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Noooo they answer to the RA
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: it's a good thing
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: sorry
[9:59] Sylvia Tinkel: will stop interrupting if Solomon does
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: .. in the sense that if they don't behave, we can impeach them
[10:00] Arria Perreault: we can move to the next point
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, please, Arria
[10:00] Arria Perreault: b. Definition of citizen
[10:00] Arria Perreault: Mikelo has proposed this point to the ageda. I give the floor to him
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: Thank you
[10:00] Mikelo Serevi: My main purpose in proposing the point was to open discussion here
[10:01] Mikelo Serevi: See how others feel we should proceed
[10:01] Mikelo Serevi: I think it's a very important task and we should get started if we want to continue merging with AA
[10:01] Solomon Mosely: i thought we already did
[10:02] Mikelo Serevi: Well, we have been dealing with other things
[10:02] Mikelo Serevi: But this has been a sticking point in the merger
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: could you outline what the major issues are mikelo? why is citizenship a sticking point?
[10:02] Pip Torok: (the trial period of the merger ends n ext June, Solomon)
[10:02] Solomon Mosely: right
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: What I mean is, the definition of a citizen is supposed to come from owning land
[10:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then it's stick or twist
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: But many own land as part of a group, for example
[10:03] Mikelo Serevi: It's not clear that we should deny them this right
[10:04] Mikelo Serevi: But on the other hand, should someone who joins a group of 300 suddenly be eligible to vote?
[10:04] Pip Torok raises hand
[10:04] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, I'd like to hear from others in the RA
[10:04] Arria Perreault: Pip have asked to speak
[10:04] Pip Torok: Madame LRA?
[10:05] Arria Perreault: Pip, you have the floor
[10:05] Arias Ahren: Okay
[10:05] Arias Ahren: I am having a bit of trouble with my internet connection.
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* after Pip
[10:06] Arria Perreault: ok, Gwyn
[10:06] Pip Torok: right ... 2 points .... i agree with mikelo as to its crucial importance ... and note the suggestion (from Sudane) that it be based on _who _ pays the tier for the land .... and finally respectfully suggest that a workingparty of mikelo Arria Sudane and myself might provide a quick solution
[10:06] Pip Torok: done
[10:07] Soro Dagostino: Hmmm, no one from SEED?
[10:07] Arria Perreault: we have a proposal, but I suggest we continue the discussion before to find a second or vote
[10:07] Arria Perreault: Gwyn has the floor
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* and agrees with Mikelo. Also, the notion about "owning land" has been questioned last term (and I changed my opinion after some very good argumentation ). Is "owning land" buying a parcel, or paying land fees? The latter seems to be the more logical choice, since the land price fluctuates (as owners set the price, not the Government, after the first sale), while land fees don't)
[10:08] Pip Torok: wd be glad to have a SEED member in it (speaking personally)
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ack, I had pre-typed that but I see I'm pretty much making the same point.
[10:08] Carolyn Saarinen: "But on the other hand, should someone who joins a group of 300 suddenly be eligible to vote?" People who join much smaller groups are entitled to stand for office!
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, yes, I think it's worth changing the definition of citizenship; and actually I had a proposal for a bill posted on the forums.
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean outside the CDS; Caro?
[10:09] Carolyn Saarinen: No Gwyn I don't
[10:09] Pip Torok: agree Caro ... thats why whoever pays tier .. wd obviate that problem
[10:09] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wonder if CDS can really have the luxury of choosing to further limit citizenship when it already struggles to fill posts
[10:10] Carolyn Saarinen: CDS might struggle Stui, AA does not. The same applies to land.
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry... "/nod and agrees with Mikelo. Also, the notion about "owning land" has been questioned last term (and I changed my opinion after some very good argumentation ). Is "owning land" buying a parcel, or paying land fees? The latter seems to be the more logical choice, since the land price
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
[10:10] Mikelo Serevi: This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to open
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: grr
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then I don't understood what you meant, Caro
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And my grammar sucks today... :O
[10:11] Mikelo Serevi: Sl does that somehow
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stui, the question about group ownership (which, btw, is allowed) is not because we want "more citizens at any price", but because of enforcement of the laws.
[10:11] Patroklus Murakami: i'm not sure i understand the proposal that it's 'whoever pays tier'. when does someone become a citizen then?
[10:12] Pip Torok: One point Id like to make in fron of the RA: ... that the citizen count be easy to obtain by all parties
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was felt that citizenship ought to be based on something that people value. iRL it's physical freedom. We can't limit that in SL, so the second best choice we found was... the purse
[10:12] Pip Torok: *front
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: i agree with that pip
[10:12] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I still think that we don't have enough citizens to start looking to exclude
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn most heartily agrees with that too, Pip!
[10:12] Carolyn Saarinen: I meant Gwyn that other factions accepted people as potential candidates when they were not land-owners in the the sense of voting qualifications,. I mean that such persons are claiming to hold office in AA when they don't live there!
[10:13] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's not like we are overrun
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Caro! Sorry...I *see*
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: you could draw it more widely stui, you could let anyone who joins the CDS and AA groups be a citizen. but would you set any barrier on voting?
[10:13] Pip Torok: Stui ... suppose 200 Coptic Christians had suddenly become citizens?
[10:13] Carolyn Saarinen: No AA IS over run, in-so-far as AA land is always full, CDS land remains empty.
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that if you looked at the % of active citizens per group
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you'd find that the number is not probably so high
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Stui, any change of the citizenship status will have to change the ground, the base of law enforcement. If you find out a valid way to enforce the code of laws without going to people's purses, please tell us — just because in the past we never figured out a way, it doesn't mean that there isn't an alternative!
[10:14] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am myself member of groups for no other reason than diplomacy with the group founder
[10:15] Gelf Yalin: caro: what do you think is a good way to increase the numbers of people being active in the CDS, what is your proposal as to citizenship?
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I admit that some people pay a higher % of tier for their privileges
[10:15] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then I also own to knowing that some people couldn't afford tier
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and yet would want to be active citizens
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what of those people ?
[10:16] Mikelo Serevi: There is only one level of privilege though, citizen
[10:16] StuiChicanne Darkstone: how do we qualify the enthusiastic ? are they in some way less than the rich ?
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we discussed that before, Stui Sorry, I don't buy the argument that someone owns a compuyer and a broadband connection, both able to run SL to be "active citizens", and cannot afford half a dollar monthly
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: disposible income is an issue
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: i agree gwyn, no one by that definition is in any way 'poor'
[10:17] Timo Gufler: good point, Gwyn
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 6 dollars per year! That's what costs to be a citizen in the SL! If you don't even have that...
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that is the reason for the privations of the recession
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also
[10:17] Pip Torok agrees with pat and gwyn
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Come *on*, Stui
[10:17] Carolyn Saarinen: I think that the best way to resolve the AA citizenship issue is to use the WASp Option Gelf!
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seriously
[10:17] Arria Perreault: I think we have cheap parcels and we can have others
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: it's one cup of cappucino at starbuck's a week
[10:17] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we do have people from really rather poor nations who have access to a PC
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but do not get paid in dollars
[10:18] Gelf Yalin: sorry for my ignorance, what is the WASp option?
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll be more than happy to pay them 6 US dollars per annum to have them be citizens
[10:18] Carolyn Saarinen: The WASP option is that AA de-merges from CDS after one year
[10:18] Mikelo Serevi: If any such people want to join the CDS, I'd like to hear form them
[10:18] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we as landed citizens are to be the only voting party
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: or that the CDS votes to end the merger
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then that is restrictive
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if there is a nominal fee
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's still rather unfair
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as it cannot be qualified as being within the reach of all people
[10:19] Pip Torok: I propose that citizenship be based on the payment of tier and/or Landfees
[10:19] Mikelo Serevi: I think it's fair enough
[10:19] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and laws are laws that are fair to all people
[10:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not just the fortunate
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: the point is that people who own land who pay tier have a stake in the community. open access just leads to abuse
[10:20] Gelf Yalin: okay, I just want to follow what is being said....are you stating Stui that you want citizenship to be open to anyone?
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: well pip, did you want to start the working group?
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that's a different question. Basing citizenship on the ability to enforce the code of laws based on payments is just ONE option. As said (and I repeat myself), just because in the past 6 years we didn't find a better solution, it doesn't mean there is none. So... in the case of NOT having any kind of fees... what would be the base of enforcement?
[10:20] Arias Ahren: I have a small studio in Aa and a small piece of land next to Caro and Pip. I assume that mekes me eligible for citizenship. Yes?
[10:20] Arria Perreault: Ok. Mikelo wated to open the discussion and I think his goal is reached
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (true, Arria )
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, I know I made a bit of a mess
[10:20] Pip Torok: yes i do want to start the workgroup if Mikelo agrees
[10:20] Solomon Mosely: whas there been a group recently that is trying to have a lrge number of people voting on something?
[10:20] Solomon Mosely: what has sparked this debate?
[10:20] Mikelo Serevi: But I wanted to test the waters
[10:20] Arria Perreault: I thik we have to go further
[10:20] Gelf Yalin: can't someone who doesn't have enough money work as a civil servent in the CDS and earn their fees?
[10:21] Arria Perreault: Pip has made a proposal
[10:21] Timo Gufler: if citizenship is free, then it would be very cheap to have an army of alts here...
[10:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, Gelf!
[10:21] Arria Perreault: a working group
[10:21] Pip Torok: shall i repeat it?
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what of the time constraints ?
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: quite gelf
[10:21] Arria Perreault: Pip, do you want to define again your proposal?
[10:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: not all people have time regularly ?
[10:21] Pip Torok: I propose that citizenship be based on the payment of tier and/or Landfees
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: hold on pip
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: i thought the proposal was to have a working group?
[10:21] Solomon Mosely: thank you pat
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: I thought we were going to form a working group to consider it further
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles @ Pat
[10:22] Carolyn Saarinen: Oh please. The CDS political hacks don't want al-Andalus except as a crippled rump on their terms. For AA citizens the best course is to cut CDS loose and let you sink!
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:22] Mikelo Serevi: It's a huge question
[10:22] Arria Perreault: you did propose a working group first
[10:22] Pip Torok: i repropose
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: i don't think i'm ready to change our citizenship rules right now
[10:22] Arria Perreault: yes, do it Pip
[10:22] Pip Torok: I propse that the RA formn a workinggroup on Defining Citizenship
[10:23] Arria Perreault: any second?
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have a query of this
[10:23] Mikelo Serevi: second
[10:23] Soro Dagostino: Barring all other citizens?
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the names mentioned before
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are they the working group ?
[10:23] Pip Torok: yes
[10:23] Arria Perreault: thank you Mikelo
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or is this a proposal to form a working group ?
[10:23] Pip Torok: yes
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: of undefined names ?
[10:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or of your previous statement Pip?
[10:23] Pip Torok: the names I mentioned before
[10:23] Solomon Mosely: caro, the RA may represent the politically ambitious among us, but not necessarily the people's wishes
[10:23] Gelf Yalin: so is Caro the only one who doesn't want things to work between AA and the CDS? Are there others here whose purpose is not to try to make things better for all?
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami assumes the working group will hold open meetings which anyone can attend
[10:24] Pip Torok: yes ... assumption is right
[10:24] Mikelo Serevi: The whole point is to serve the people
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would like to know the status of the people mentioned
[10:24] Pip Torok: they are RA members
[10:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: would they be equal to the audience or above?
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn is fine with the proposal, but it ought to have a "head" — that's the person responsible to summarise its results to the RA
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are they a joint chair ?
[10:25] Pip Torok: I propose Mikelo be the head
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or is there one appointed chair ?
[10:25] Arria Perreault: except Sudane
[10:25] Mikelo Serevi: In the end, the RA will vote on the work group's proposal, I should think
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I ask this
[10:25] Arria Perreault: Pip, can you rename the members?
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: purely in the interests of my faction
[10:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as we were rather seen as irrelevant
[10:25] Pip Torok: yes Arria Mikelo an Pip Torok
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and while we are invited to join
[10:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we have not been asked to be part of this proposal
[10:26] Pip Torok: but you are as part of an open meeting Stu
[10:26] Carolyn Saarinen: Gelf Yalin = "CDS political hacks don't want al-Andalus except as a crippled rump on their terms." You don't know my city. You don't love my city. You don't matter to me.
[10:27] Solomon Mosely: yes, why no cal for interested volunteers for the work group?
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why are we proposing a group
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with one as chair
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: the meetings will be open to all for crying out loud
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Not with a voice
[10:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with specific names put forward ?
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: turn up, participate, get on with it!
[10:27] Mikelo Serevi: It's too much work for an RA meeting, I think, that's why stui
[10:27] Soro Dagostino: Just as a yammering crowd
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what is the special qualification of these nominees Pip ?
[10:28] Gelf Yalin: I am not arguing with you Caro, I am just expressing concern
[10:28] Arria Perreault: The proposal is a working group with Arria Mikelo and Pip whose goal is to bring to the RA a proposal about CDS citizenship
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: why have any more than a chair ?
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you only need a chair to sit the meeting
[10:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if it is so disadvantageous to have a position over and above the common audience
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: unless it is for the prestige of course
[10:29] Pip Torok: arria is concer ned ... mikelo put the mortion .. and i in the dpu regard it as high-priority
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and then I shall say we should produce badges
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Pip
[10:29] Gelf Yalin: I would like CDS and AA to try to at least give this the best chance possible to work together and make the best thing possible....if it doesn't work out fine but shouldn't we at least give it our best shot?
[10:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: are Seed not concerned ?
[10:29] Solomon Mosely: stui, if you want in, jut ask to be a part of the work group
[10:29] Mikelo Serevi: Shall we invite a seed member to join the working group, pip?
[10:29] Solomon Mosely: nice of you mike
[10:29] Gelf Yalin: Caro: if you think there is a way for CDS to improve citizenship please let us know
[10:29] Gelf Yalin: I really truly do want to know
[10:30] Pip Torok: yes ... will someone in SEED* come forward?
[10:30] Mikelo Serevi: I personally am concerned that stui will have us splitting hairs
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: depending on availability
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I will be there
[10:30] Mikelo Serevi: Lilith, are you interested?
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but not as less than I am now
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and Mikelo
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am an RA member just as you are
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn quotes the RA Meeting Procedures (http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=281): on point 5: "Committees will be formed of volunteers, and the LRA will make efforts to ensure that committees contain a balanced range of faction members and positions." So, yes, we ought to have a SEED* member in it.
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have a right to involvement
[10:30] Lilith Ivory: I´d second Stui as a member of that work group as he knows more about AA
[10:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with or without your mandate
[10:31] Imotali Antiesse: Since there concern with merger, yes an AA member should chair too.
[10:31] Arria Perreault: now we have a representant from each faction and a head
[10:31] Lilith Ivory: at least one citizen of Al Andalus should be part of that work group
[10:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I respectfully ask that you do not further undermine my integrity or suitability for office
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: LOL!
[10:32] Arria Perreault: can we vote about the workgroup now?
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: respectfully, stui, often it feels like you are mocking these proceedings
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: I don't appreciate it
[10:32] Timo Gufler: yes, please
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if you say so Mikelo
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if it can be so easily mocked
[10:32] Pip Torok: My proposal: that Mikelo, Arria, Stui and myself form a workingpartgy on Citizen definition which is open to CDS residents
[10:32] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's fragile indeed
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: second
[10:32] Arria Perreault: members: Mikelo (head), Stui, Pip, Arria
[10:32] Arria Perreault: we vote now
[10:32] Pip Torok: aye
[10:32] Gelf Yalin: aye
[10:32] Arria Perreault: RA members who agree, pay say aye
[10:32] Timo Gufler: aye
[10:33] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[10:33] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[10:33] Tor Karlsvalt: I have a question
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[10:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: pls wait til after the vote tor
[10:33] Lilith Ivory: aye
[10:33] muhammedyussif Wikinger: afk
[10:34] Arria Perreault: Caro, Stui?
[10:34] StuiChicanne Darkstone: could I as a cat and curious
[10:34] Tor Karlsvalt: I think the group should report on how this change will affect voiting registration. Would that be possible?
[10:35] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, that's the whole point
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: sorry I was gonna ask LRA if it were possible to hear Tor's question
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: before voting
[10:35] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[10:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Aye
[10:35] Pip Torok: well ... it wd provide the BASIS for giving citizens a ready-reference of who is a citizen and how many there are
[10:36] Tor Karlsvalt: No, it should report on where there have been problems and how various sims will loose voting residents.
[10:36] Arria Perreault: Caro?
[10:36] Arria Perreault: I vote aye
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: like a percentage board of CDS sims Tor ?
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to show the losses
[10:36] Tor Karlsvalt: yes
[10:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that seems fair
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: why would sims lose voting residents tor?
[10:37] Arria Perreault: we have 10 aye, motion carries
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's transparent
[10:37] Mikelo Serevi: I'm not sure we have existing numbers
[10:37] Arria Perreault: Mikelo, we wait for your invitation
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: Well there seems to be a problem with members of groups voiting
[10:37] Mikelo Serevi: since we have no real definition
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I suppose I can see why it would be an issue
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: for this to be a valid issue there must have been some abuses
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the wasp clause
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if AA lost most of it's votes
[10:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or CDS
[10:37] Solomon Mosely: thats what i was wondering tor
[10:37] Arria Perreault: We are finished with this point
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: or there is a practice in some sims to allow non landed people to be citizens.
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then how could the wasp clause be effectively voted through fairly ?
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: Thanks Arria
[10:38] Patroklus Murakami: good grief. is that what ppl think this is for? to deny AA citizens votes?
[10:38] Pip Torok: not that i know of, Tor
[10:38] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it would rather have to be done under the old rules to be fair
[10:38] Solomon Mosely: thanks mike