Moderator: SC Moderators
The Citizen Commission will meet on Sunday 18 July at 10:00 AM in the Praetorium of Colonia Nova.
We will have a 2 hours meeting (maximum).
(The in-world notice has 9:00. Sorry for that. I have noticed another event at that time. I will send an other in-world notice later. The correct time is in the Google Calender).
Extract of the CDS Constitution
Article VI - Citizenship
1. A citizen of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators is a resident of SecondLife who has been granted title to any land by the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, and who holds title under the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, for as long as he or she holds such title.
2. Without prejudice to any rule of law entitling any institution of government to substitute, or empower another person or body to substitute any land held by any citizen for any other land the holding of which would continue to entitle the person whose land has been substituted to be a citizen of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, no citizen shall be deprived of citizenship in the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, nor shall any person, whether a citizen or not, be banished from any public land in the Confederation of Democratic Simulators, without trial in accordance with law, or consent not to be so tried.
3. Section 2 above is subject to any rule of law whereby a person is deemed to have consented not to be tried by having failed within reasonable time to respond or respond fully to any notice sent to that person in respect of any such prospective trial, nor any rule that specifies what shall constitute a reasonable time.
4. Section 2 above shall be without prejudice to any rule of law whereby a person may summarily be banished by any citizen of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators appointed for such a purpose by any duly ratified Act of the Representative Assembly (or by any person or body deriving her his or its power to do so from any such Act), for up to fourteen consecutive days (but without revocation of citizenship or forfeiture of any asset).
5. Section 2 above shall be without prejudice to any rule of law whereby a person may be banished temporarily by Order of a Court of Common Jurisdiction pending such a trial as is mentioned therein (but without revocation of citizenship or forfeiture of any asset).
6. Any citizen may cease to become a citizen by submitting a notice in a form that may be prescribed by any duly ratified Act of the Representative Assembly (or, if no such form is specified, by notifying the Chancellor in writing) seven days in advance of the date on which that person is to cease to be a citizen.
http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=135
Any amendment of this article will need a 2/3 majority in the RA.
Any Bill voted by the RA with a simple majority must be in accordance with this article of the Constitution.
NL 4-3 Land Sales Reporting Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=144
Any citizen selling land in Neualtenburg must report the buyer's name, lot name, and purchase price to the city treasurer within 5 days of the transfer.
NL 5-9 Group Land Ownership Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=185
This extends the option of land ownership in Neufreistadt to couples and groups of citizens. Among others, this allows joint ownership of land by people in committed relationships, social, educational, and religious organizations.
1. Plots of land in Neufreistadt may be owned by couples or groups of citizens. All members must be citizens before joining the group.
2. Residents of SL receive citizenship in the CDS by owning land in one of the territories administered by the CDS, and by agreeing to comply with the laws and covenants of the community. The citizen, who shall be a RL person presenting themself as a single SL avatar, may hold land either through individual ownership (in which their name is displayed on the "About Land" page of their parcel), or through membership in a group (in which the group name is displayed as "owner" on the "About Land" page of their parcel). The group shall own, compliant with the covenants regarding maximum ownership by any single citizen, at least 128 sq meters of land for each individual whose citizenship is qualified by that land.
3. Furthermore, each citizen shall be required to pay their monthly fee for land ownership, in person, each month, at the sim location established for this purpose. Individual owners shall pay the entire cost of their parcels in this manner. Group members shall allocate among themselves each member's share of the fee for land owned by their group, with the minimum amount of L$100 allocated to any one person. A group representative shall provide to the Treasurer, in a timely fashion, the list of citizen members, and their respective allocations.
4. In the course of time, should it happen that an individual does not pay their monthly fee (according to schedules established by the Chancellor and the Treasurer), that person shall be liable to lose their citizenship. Should that citizen be a citizen by virtue of membership in a land owning group, other group members will NOT risk losing their parcel and thus their citizenship. Rather, at the point that the Chancellor/Treasurer shall determine that person to be delinquent, and thus ineligible for further citizenship, the remaining members of that group shall be required to re-allocate their monthly amounts in order that 100% of the monthly fee be paid. If the resulting reduction in membership should cause the group to exceed its maximum land-owning allowance (as per the covenants), the group will be required to divest excess land.
5. If the citizen leaves a land holding group they have two months to reestablish their holdings to meet the above criteria.
passed October 7, 2006 and amended by NL 7-7 21 October 2007
NL 5-15 Citizen Information Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=191
The avatar names of CDS citizens shall be considered public information. The Estate Owner shall make this information available both in world and via the world wide web. This information will be updated at least once per calendar month.
NL 5-17 Census Scheduling Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=193
The number of seats in the RA shall be based upon the number of citizens as of the deadline for voting in the election that will elect that RA (per Article V).
NL 5-21 Citizen Involvement Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=197
Preamble
A bill to enhance citizen involvement in the government of the CDS; also to promote the deeper analysis of proposals in discussion and as means to aid the RA in their legislative work.1. For any proposal in discussion, the RA can decide that a commission be formed to analyse the proposal.
2. The RA will decide the remit, responsibilities, lifespan and which powers, if any, it wants to delegate to the commission, with the exception of legislative powers.
3. The commission must be chaired by a member of the RA.
4. The commission shall have at least three members.
5. Any citizen of the CDS may join a commission, and must indicate their availability to the chair.
6. The commission must report on progress to the RA at each subsequent RA meeting.
7. In the event where the commission makes a formal recommendation to the RA it must include information about the extent to which it is supported by the full commission along with information about dissenting minorities and their alternative preference.
8. This act shall not preclude the assignment of bills to committee by the RA or LRA without legislative act.
NL 7-4 Re-establish the Citizenship Commission Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=206
Bill to Re-establish the Citizenship Commission
1. Pursuant to the procedures set forth in NL 5-21, this Act re-establishes the citizenship commission.
2. The Commission is charged with considering how citizenship should be defined in the CDS.
3. The Commission will hold a full and participatory set of discussions inworld and on the CDS forums starting on 13 August and finishing on 17 September 2007.
4. The Commission will present a report to the RA within a week of the completion of the Commission's work with recommendations (and draft legislation if needed).
5. The Commission will be chaired by Bromo Ivory.
6. Citizens wishing to serve on the Citizenship Commission should make themselves know to Bromo Ivory by 13 August.
NL 7-6 Land Sale Reform Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=208
Proposal to alter the manner in which citizens may sell their land in the CDS.
Proposed: That the option be set on our Estate Settings to allow citizens to individually set their parcels for sale, and transact the sale directly and completely with the buyer, whether the buyer be a new citizen or an existing citizen.
Procedure for Land Reclamation
The CDS retains the right to reclaim ownership of land if the fee for land ownership is not paid. This right is subject to the following procedure and has the following effects:
1. After a land payment is overdue, but prior to reclamation by the CDS, the Estate Owner or his or her agent shall inform the landowner of the arrearage, the amount of the arrearage, and that the land reclamation process has begun. This notice shall be provided to initiate the reclamation process.
2. After one month, the land shall be reclaimed, but shall not be resold for an additional two months. The prior landowner shall again be notified of the reclamation and shall have an opportunity to pay the arrearage and take back the land. This notice shall be provided twice, first at the start of the two-month period and second at the end, one week prior to the CDS taking possession of the land.
3. Thereafter, following this three month period, the land may be resold by the CDS without restriction and without the prior owner having any right to take back the property or participate in the proceeds of the sale.
4. During the three-month period of reclamation, the landowner shall not lose citizenship, but shall be a "provisional citizen." A provisional citizen shall not have the right to vote or hold office in the CDS.
5. All notices under this act shall be by inworld IM, by gift of inworld notecard, and by private message on the CDS forum (if the landowner is a member of the forum). This notice process may be automated by the Estate Manager.
NL 7-7 Amendment to NL 5-9 Group Land Ownership Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=209
Amendment to NL5-9 Group Land Ownership Act
Replace 2 with the following and renumber:
Residents of SL receive citizenship in the CDS by owning land in one of the territories administered by the CDS, and by agreeing to comply with the laws and covenants of the community. The citizen, who shall be a RL person presenting themself as a single SL avatar, may hold land either through individual ownership (in which their name is displayed on the "About Land" page of their parcel), or through membership in a group (in which the group name is displayed as "owner" on the "About Land" page of their parcel). The group shall own, compliant with the covenants regarding maximum ownership by any single citizen, at least 128 sq meters of land for each individual whose citizenship is qualified by that land.
Furthermore, each citizen shall be required to pay their monthly fee for land ownership, in person, each month, at the sim location established for this purpose. Individual owners shall pay the entire cost of their parcels in this manner. Group members shall allocate among themselves each member's share of the fee for land owned by their group, with the minimum amount of L$100 allocated to any one person. A group representative shall provide to the Treasurer, in a timely fashion, the list of citizen members, and their respective allocations.
In the course of time, should it happen that an individual does not pay their monthly fee (according to schedules established by the Chancellor and the Treasurer), that person shall be liable to lose their citizenship. Should that citizen be a citizen by virtue of membership in a land owning group, other group members will NOT risk losing their parcel and thus their citizenship. Rather, at the point that the Chancellor/Treasurer shall determine that person to be delinquent, and thus ineligible for further citizenship, the remaining members of that group shall be required to re-allocate their monthly amounts in order that 100% of the monthly fee be paid. If the resulting reduction in membership should cause the group to exceed its maximum land-owning allowance (as per the covenants), the group will be required to divest excess land.
NL 9-2 Land Sales Reclamation Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=240
1. Citizens of CDS are expected to pay tier rentals to the CDS Treasurer in a timely fashion. The Treasurer may set (by posting to the CDS Forums) reasonable monthly notification and due date schedules.
2. The CDS Executive Branch shall provide for notice (which may be by IM or notecard) to each land owner when they have failed to pay tier rental by the established due date.
3. Five calendar days after the due date, a landowner who has failed timely to pay rental tier becomes a 'provisional citizen', and shall not have the right to vote or hold office in the CDS until and unless all amounts overdue to CDS are paid in full. The citizen shall receive a notice (by IM or notecard) advising her or him of this risk and imminent change is status, and noting the deadline for final payment pursuant to this Act.
4. CDS has the right to make public the lists of provisional citizens from time to time, as reasonably needed for its administration of government.
5. One calendar month after the due date, if the landowner has continued to fail to pay the full amount then overdue to CDS, then CDS shall send another notice to the landowner warning of imminent reclaimation (loss of the land). Fourteen days after that 1-month notice is sent, the CDS Executive Branch shall re-take ownership of the land, and the owner shall be removed from 'provisional citizen' status. The CDS Executive Branch may then dispose of the land by re-sale or otherwise in such manner as is consistent with our laws, and the landowner will lose any further interest in the parcel. All objects on the parcel at the time of reclaimation shall be returned, and a notice of the reclaimation sent to the landowner.
6. If a landowner who has failed to pay rental tier owns more than one CDS property, and reaches the one-month notice above, all of that owner's properties are subject to the reclamation rules specified above. However, this paragraph 6 shall only be in force on and after the date on which CDS government has posted a method by which absent landowners can effectively prepay rent, in amounts at least up to 3 months' in advance.
7. The CDS Executive Branch is encourged to take reasonable additional steps to notify citizens of past due amounts and all other matters described in this Act, but timely rent payment primarily is the citizen's responsibility to monitor.
8. This law repeals any provisions of prior CDS laws (including NL 7-6 [http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=208]) that specify land reclaimation or rent payment methods, to the extent that they contradict the explicit terms of this law.
NL 9-3 Land Sales Listing Improvement Act: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=241
1. Land sales in CDS of land owned by the government are conducted by the CDS Executive Branch, using such methods as are reasonably expected to promote the Confederation's interests, consistent with our laws.
.
2. Land sales in CDS owned by a citizen are initiated by the citizen, and facilitated and supervised by the CDS Executive Branch. Any land transfer of any kind by any citizen requires notification to the Treasurer of CDS per NL 4-3. [http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=144]3. CDS sim estate settings currently permit "direct" land sales by citizens using the Second Life software map "for sale" listings (commonly known as the yellow map parcel methods). The Executive Branch is hereby authorized to disable that direct sale function, and cause all all future land sales by citizens to be possible only through a central, government-owned listing system, as soon as each of the following requirements are met:
a. The Executive Branch has provided for a central listing method that advertises the availability of all available parcels, with reasonable timeliness and ease of access, and posts them, at least, in conspicuous in-world devices in two CDS sims, and on the Web.
b. The Executive Branch has delivered to the RA by posting to the CDS Forums a certificate indicating that the foregoing system is in place, and describing it.
c. This law repeals any provisions of prior CDS laws that specify land sale methods, to the extent that they contradict the explicit terms of this law.
3. Once the foregoing new system is in place, the Executive Branch also will use it to list CDS-owned parcels for sale.
Citizens of the CDS as of Apr 18, 2010: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html
(Official list of the Treasurer, certified by the SC)
CDS Masterplan: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... 5SoA3QNDOg
(Official list of the Treasurer)
Al Andalus land as April 11, 2010: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html
(List of Rose Springvale)
CDS Owner Citizen List: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... utput=html
(List made by Trebor Warcliffe: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2967)
Updates of the Owners List: a tool made by Timo Gufler send an IM to the Treasurer and the Chancellor to warn them about any change of ownership of a parcel. With this tool, it is possible to keep a list of owners up to date.
100L$ Citizen
From the table of NFS parcels, there is a category of "Microlots" which for the purpose of administration are where the "100L" citizens are assigned. There are now 7 100L$ Citizens.
(Information of the Treasurer)
- A SUMMARY WILL FOLLOW -
[10:40] Arria Perreault: We start the transcript now
[10:41] Rosie Gray: I think the transcript was already started awhile ago
[10:41] Kaseido Quandry: Arria,we've been meeting for 45 minutes. I think a lot of people want the whole thing in the transcript
[10:41] Guillaume Mistwalker: That may be true, Rosie,but with more people, things could be more difficult to run
[10:41] Rosie Gray: yes I do
[10:41] Arria Perreault: I am the chair
[10:41] Rosie Gray: true Guillaume
[10:41] Arria Perreault: you can publish it if want
[10:41] Kaseido Quandry: you're also nearly an hour late to your own meeting, Arria.
[10:41] Arria Perreault: you*
[10:41] Arria Perreault: I had an rl issue to fix and I have apologized for that
[10:42] Mikelo Serevi: Rl has to come first
[10:42] Arria Perreault: it's not my fault
[10:42] Arria Perreault: I have done everything to come online
[10:42] Rosie Gray: sorry to hear it Arria, but we have been talking anyway ㋡
[10:42] Kaseido Quandry: no, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't count what everyone who *did* show up has been saying
[10:42] Arria Perreault: that's why I said you can publish this as contribution
[10:43] Arria Perreault: it's not a problem for me
[10:43] Arria Perreault: I will read
[10:43] Arria Perreault: I would like to start by telling that CDS had several citizen commissions
[10:43] Arria Perreault: until now no one has succeeded to make any change
[10:44] Arria Perreault: the definition of the citizen is given by the Constitution and any change need a 2/3 majority in the RA
[10:44] Arria Perreault: this makes any change very hard
[10:45] Arria Perreault: I have published the references of all evidences in the forum
[10:45] Arria Perreault: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2996
[10:45] Arria Perreault: the article of the Constitution
[10:45] Arria Perreault: the different laws and bills
[10:46] Arria Perreault: and all statistical datas I have found
[10:46] Arria Perreault: list of citizen, of parcels
[10:47] Arria Perreault: until now, in our Constitution and in my understanding of it, there is a strong link between citizenship and the owning of a parcel
[10:47] Arria Perreault: the citizen have the "duty" to maintain the sims
[10:48] Arria Perreault: it is logical because without sims, there is no CDS
[10:48] Arria Perreault: I would like to start this reflexion about citizenship with this link
[10:48] Arria Perreault: what will happen if we break it?
[10:48] Arria Perreault: can we make different scenarios?
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: I heard them talking about about selling citizenship with no land earlier
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: did I hear right?
[10:50] Arria Perreault: we have the possibility to give citizenship to group members. the group has to own a parcel and can "make" as many citizen as many parts of 128 msq he can have
[10:50] Arria Perreault: I have calcutaled that the Monastery could make 24 citizen
[10:51] Arria Perreault: we have many big parcels like this to provide a cheap entry in our community
[10:51] Arria Perreault: the minimal amount for this citizenship is 100 L$ a month
[10:51] Tor Karlsvalt: I really don't like that idea
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn est connecté(e)
[10:51] Arria Perreault: and the Treasurer told me we have currently 100 L$ citizen
[10:52] Tor Karlsvalt: it gives the power to invest citizenship to a parcel or group owner.
[10:52] Indicator Board (Business Ver): Gwyneth Llewelyn is online!
[10:52] Arria Perreault: we have currently 7 citizen who pay 100 L$
[10:52] Arria Perreault: in the original part of CDS
[10:52] Arria Perreault: for AA, I have no idea
[10:52] Guillaume Mistwalker: I don't think anything of it, not for a minute. As long as we have citizens, we may as well have plot owners. Perhaps though, with the citizenship fee we discussed earlier, we could waiver the resident restriction concerning partner ownership or group ownership where the rate of the amount paid to the CDS is atleast 100L
[10:53] Delia Lake: there were at one time microplots sold in NFS. it was a short lived window as i remember
[10:53] Tor Karlsvalt: i agree Gui
[10:53] Rosie Gray: I agree Guillaume
[10:53] Tor Karlsvalt: citizenship should be based on either parcel ownership or the fee paid to CDS Treasury
[10:53] EdDereDdE Laval est déconnecté(e)
[10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: And applicants for citizenship should be public record
[10:54] Arria Perreault: yes, but at the end, we have to be able to pay our fees to LL
[10:54] Arria Perreault: where is the difference?
[10:54] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes, and we will
[10:54] Rosie Gray: but also as we talked about earlier, it might be better to have the option of a citizen tax, for citizenship, rather than making people buy a plot of land to pay tier, but they have no interest in doing anything with it, thus leaving their plot abandonded
[10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: the difference is stark
[10:54] Delia Lake: it is the fees to LL which are ultimately important. if we don't pay those the sims will not be here
[10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: a parcel owner can limit citizenship to his friends
[10:55] Arria Perreault: that's why we have the group citizenship
[10:55] Guillaume Mistwalker: If we have a couple who own a 300L plot, they will pay that rate of 100.
[10:55] Mikelo Serevi: but isn't part of the idea to live here?
[10:55] Arria Perreault: you belong to a group and you don't have to manage a parcel alone
[10:55] Tor Karlsvalt: i agree Mik
[10:55] Rosie Gray: yes I agree Mikelo
[10:55] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hear hear, Mik
[10:55] Arria Perreault: yes, I though it was the philosophy in AA: in-world
[10:55] Rosie Gray: or at least to be active here
[10:55] Imotali Antiesse: Arria, this group citzenship does apply to AA, is this correct?
[10:55] Arria Perreault: if people can pay only a tax, some will never come
[10:56] Imotali Antiesse: sorry does not..
[10:56] Tor Karlsvalt: but as a parcel owner, i can deed my parcel to a group and then charge members I like 100L ot be a citizen
[10:56] Arria Perreault: yes, Imotali
[10:56] Arria Perreault: we have the same rule
[10:56] Rosie Gray: some never come anyway, except to pay their tier
[10:56] Tor Karlsvalt: then just give the names to the Treasurer
[10:56] Rosie Gray: which is my point
[10:56] Tor Karlsvalt: bam a citizen
[10:56] Arria Perreault: read the law. it's interesting
[10:56] Arria Perreault: the Monastery could host 24 citizen
[10:56] Delia Lake: quite a few are not here on a frequent basis
[10:56] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed, Del
[10:57] Tor Karlsvalt: And the group owner just pays the citizenship for everyone in the group.
[10:57] Arria Perreault: I would like to calculate how many we can have with the current law
[10:57] Rosie Gray: many many times I am the only one on the NFS sim
[10:57] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed, Tor
[10:57] Mikelo Serevi: well, I thougt the idea was to have official groups for those parcels, not random ones
[10:57] Arria Perreault: the group has to organize itself
[10:57] Delia Lake: me also Rosie
[10:57] Tor Karlsvalt: better to have just a CDS group fee for citizneship
[10:57] Tor Karlsvalt: Right, as a group owner I could exclude some ppl
[10:57] Arria Perreault: people pay to the group owner and the group owner pay the Treasurer and provide the list of citizen
[10:57] Rosie Gray: yes I think one overall fee rather than individual
[10:58] Mikelo Serevi: but isn't a group fee like selling votes?
[10:58] Guillaume Mistwalker: Perhaps, then, for a group ownership which ensures citizenship, a rate of 100L/citizen?
[10:58] Arria Perreault: I have thought to that, Tor
[10:58] Tor Karlsvalt: Mik that is what yoiu have now
[10:58] Kaseido Quandry: yep, Tor
[10:58] Arria Perreault: I think that groups which give the citizenship should be chartered by CDS
[10:58] Delia Lake: agreed, Tor
[10:58] Kaseido Quandry: we *do* sell votes, you just get a free parcel with them
[10:58] Arria Perreault: and have the same rules and ethic
[10:58] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed, Kas
[10:58] Tor Karlsvalt: every parcel owner over could organize as a group and offer free citizenship
[10:59] Arria Perreault: yes
[10:59] Mikelo Serevi: no, we have land purchasing which means investing in the community
[10:59] amgadsef Anton est connecté(e)
[10:59] Rosie Gray: yes that's true, but not a great idea in my opinion
[10:59] Arria Perreault: not if we improve this law
[10:59] Arria Perreault: my opinion is that we have to improve this law
[10:59] Patrick Edwyn est connecté(e)
[10:59] Mikelo Serevi: I think this is why some were completely against the idea of having group citizenship
[10:59] Delia Lake: the law was written when we had only NFS
[10:59] Arria Perreault: make a model of charter of these groups
[10:59] Tor Karlsvalt: no mik, I could form a group tomorow and tell ten people I will call them citizens to the Treasure and pay the entire tier
[10:59] Jamie Palisades est connecté(e)
[11:00] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed
[11:00] Rosie Gray: yes exactly Tor, which would hardly be fair
[11:00] Guillaume Mistwalker: Free votes
[11:00] Guillaume Mistwalker: indeed
[11:00] Imotali Antiesse: I say if the parcel tier is 1788L tier I have only 17 members to pay tier out of 100?
[11:00] Imotali Antiesse: 100member
[11:00] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed.
[11:00] Delia Lake: right now, if i wanted to stack votes, i could have friends buy small parcels and give them the money to pay for the plots
[11:00] Rosie Gray is wondering who all these people are that would pay to be a citizen
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: see, but unless you tell the treasuer to remove them from the citizenship rolls those can vote
[11:01] Kaseido Quandry: Rosie, I was just thinking that too
[11:01] Guillaume Mistwalker: That would go with my rate of citizens ammounting to atleast 100L
[11:01] Patrick Edwyn est déconnecté(e)
[11:01] Mikelo Serevi: I dont see how people can do that, it seems illegal, or at least unethical
[11:01] Kaseido Quandry: with < 50% voter turnout, this doesn't seem to be a burning issue
[11:01] Rosie Gray: that's true Delia
[11:01] Delia Lake: then use their avies--with permission of course--to vote 5, 6 whatever times.
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: unethical Mik, but not illegal.
[11:01] Rosie Gray: I agree completely Kas!
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: Ture Kas
[11:01] Mikelo Serevi: they do a survey to establish the voter record
[11:01] Guillaume Mistwalker: but it has the potential to become an issue
[11:01] Rosie Gray: most of SL is doing everything they can to lure more people to their groups
[11:02] Mikelo Serevi: I don't think I can jus tput ppl onto that
[11:02] Delia Lake: we cannot legislate against everything people who want to cheat can do, not and still maintain anonymity
[11:02] Rosie Gray: agreed Delia
[11:02] Tor Karlsvalt: Well, this issue was big in the last RA.
[11:02] Rosie Gray: not possible
[11:02] Kaseido Quandry: I agree, Rosie - I think our energies would be better spent making this such an interesting and attractive place that we *got* problems with too many people wanting to particpate
[11:02] Rosie Gray: yes exactly!
[11:03] Rosie Gray: let's be realistic
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: My only problem with tinkering with it, the prior RA never established any real need for a change.
[11:03] Delia Lake: so i come back to some of my earlier questions. why does the CDS want to have citizens and not just people who live and work here?
[11:03] Kaseido Quandry: I agree with Tor - I've only heard theoretical problems, not actual ones
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hi Imo 
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: The system is flawed, but so will anyother system
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and Mikelo!
[11:03] Rosie Gray: hello Gwyn
[11:03] Imotali Antiesse: Mayb a special procedure in place for group ownership
[11:03] Kaseido Quandry: hey Gwyn!
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: hi gwyn.
[11:03] Imotali Antiesse: Hi Gwyn
[11:03] Sonja Strom: hi Gwyneth
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and sorry... hi all.... you're all slowly rezzing hehe
[11:04] Arria Perreault: I think the main idea of CDS was a community to maintain the sims
[11:04] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hey Gwyn
[11:04] Delia Lake: if we cannot answer that, we cannot set policy or attract and keep people as part of the community very well
[11:04] Arria Perreault: Hi Gwyn
[11:04] Rosie Gray: surely we do want people to come here and participate, even if they don't specifically want to vote or have anything to do with the politics
[11:04] Tor Karlsvalt: Well to do that Arria, all we need are a small group of Town Mangers.
[11:04] Kaseido Quandry: yes Rosie!
[11:04] Arria Perreault: we are talking about the relationship between citizenship and land ownership
[11:04] Tor Karlsvalt: i agree Rosie
[11:04] Arria Perreault: can we break it or not?
[11:04] Rosie Gray: we need people to be here for social reasons as well
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: break it! lol
[11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: in my mind it has been broken.
[11:05] Guillaume Mistwalker: I don't think we need to break it
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The heresy!
[11:05] Arria Perreault: homeless people you mean?
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: omg
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn gasps.
[11:05] Imotali Antiesse: [11:03] Delia Lake: so i come back to some of my earlier questions. why does the CDS want to have citizens and not just people who live and work here?
[11:05] Rosie Gray: lots of people in SL are homeless
[11:05] Kaseido Quandry: yes yes yes - the number of people who want to do politics is very very small
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn *faints*
[11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:05] Mikelo Serevi est déconnecté(e)
[11:05] Guillaume Mistwalker: I agree that those who live here should be citizens
[11:05] Rosie Gray: SL homeless, that is
[11:05] Arria Perreault: it means you want "a place to be"
[11:05] Imotali Antiesse: and work too
[11:05] Guillaume Mistwalker: after all, we should the interest here
[11:05] Guillaume Mistwalker: indeed, Imot
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well they're very very welcome to come to the CDS, Rosie!
[11:05] Arria Perreault: and not a community related to a land
[11:06] Tor Karlsvalt: just have more room under bridges.
[11:06] Rosie Gray: but who will be here if they aren't interested?
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That doesn't mean they are supposed to be citizens
[11:06] Arria Perreault: these people can be friends of the CDS
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly!
[11:06] Arria Perreault: they can join any event, any party
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they can even... get *jobs* here!
[11:06] Rosie Gray: aren't people in RL who are homeless still citizens?
[11:06] Rosie Gray: I think they are
[11:06] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes
[11:06] Kaseido Quandry: I'm hearing a lot of assumptions, that aren't answering Delia's questions
[11:06] Guillaume Mistwalker: But what do they care?
[11:06] Tor Karlsvalt: But the current law, never seemed to cause a problem, so why change it?
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rosie, the RL analogy doesn't apply, iRL the country doesn't lease its land to the World Government or something like that
[11:06] Guillaume Mistwalker: We *live* here
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *from
[11:07] Arria Perreault: what was Delia's question?
[11:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: Those who don't, don't
[11:07] Ferry Foggarty est déconnecté(e)
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn didn't hear delia either
[11:07] Imotali Antiesse: One measure group member who pay that 100L tier ensuring they either live or work here.
[11:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: This is our home
[11:07] amgadsef Anton est déconnecté(e)
[11:07] Kaseido Quandry: [11:05] Imotali Antiesse: [11:03] Delia Lake: so i come back to some of my earlier questions. why does the CDS want to have citizens and not just people who live and work here?
[11:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: Citizenship will not affect those who do not live here, because they do not live here
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because, uh, we don't have a charity to support our tier costs...?
[11:08] Rosie Gray: well we were discussing that good question about an hour ago
[11:08] Rosie Gray: lol
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[11:08] Arria Perreault: the citizen dont have only rights, but also duties, Delia
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[11:08] Imotali Antiesse:
[11:08] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed.
[11:08] Arria Perreault: maintaining our places are one of these duties
[11:08] Kaseido Quandry: wait Gwyn, there's no link between "tier payment" and "citizenship" as a matter of necessity or logic
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well said, Arria!
[11:08] Delia Lake: so why would people want to take on these duties?
[11:08] Rosie Gray: oh I agree Arria!
[11:08] Arria Perreault: who will make the work?
[11:09] Arria Perreault: I think we have to think about that
[11:09] Delia Lake: what is it about that that is attractive to people?
[11:09] Tor Karlsvalt: SL is just more interesting if one is involved in a community.
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas, what we mean by "citizenship" is different from the notion of citizenship iRL, just because, well, SL is similar, but not the same.
[11:09] Sonja Strom est déconnecté(e)
[11:09] Arria Perreault: I will tell you what I don't want for CDS: a community of consumers with a few people who all the work
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: People can be residents and not citizens.
[11:09] Guillaume Mistwalker: indeed.
[11:09] Kaseido Quandry: Right, so let's think about what citizenship means, why anyone would want it, and who would want it
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or bear the whole burden of paying LL...
[11:09] Tor Karlsvalt: Arria, I think any organization is like that.
[11:09] Arria Perreault: by breaking this link between land ownership and citizenship, we go in this direction
[11:10] Guillaume Mistwalker: But I don't think people can be citizens but not resident.
[11:10] Rosie Gray: I think we just need more citizens, and people are different as to what they want to do, and how much time they can devote
[11:10] Tor Karlsvalt: The link is already broken
[11:10] Arria Perreault: CDS was not so when I have entered it, Tor
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some are, Guillaume... I would add: "sadly so" because I miss seeing them in-world
[11:10] Mikelo Serevi est connecté(e)
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: agreed, Rosie
[11:10] Guillaume Mistwalker: It's broken because of group owership in some cases
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: in fact, we place few burdens on citiznes...
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *citizens even
[11:10] Tor Karlsvalt: Well we seem fickel when we change the citizenship rules.
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) pay your fees and 2) obey the constitution & the laws. Just two duties
[11:11] Tor Karlsvalt: and if you gained citizenship via group membership, you probably should be grandfathered.
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we don't... 'demand' people to be around, or to attend X events per month, or dress in a certain way
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well tor
[11:11] Guillaume Mistwalker: Nor should we
[11:12] Mikelo Serevi: well, the grandfathering was sort of an issue last time
[11:12] Kaseido Quandry: then what does the concept of citizenship get us, over "tenants"?
[11:12] Delia Lake: yes, Kas
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I absolutely disagree. There was *no* discussion ever of granting citizen membership to people who was in a group but never paid tier.
[11:12] Kaseido Quandry: As a renter in any other community I have to obey the covenants and pay tier, so what's the difference?
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was just an 'assumption'
[11:12] Mathoni Zuhrah est déconnecté(e)
[11:12] Imotali Antiesse: Does promoting, hanging around the sim and invite visitors to our sim considered as "work" ?
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas, the difference is the rights... you get the right to manage the sim (or vote for the ones who manage it)
[11:12] Guillaume Mistwalker: No, I would't say so, Imo
[11:13] Rosie Gray: I think that is work, Imotali
[11:13] Kaseido Quandry: ok, so citizenship=voting, aside from renting
[11:13] Mikelo Serevi: well, I had thought that participating in a democracy was a part of citizenship here
[11:13] Stem Lavendel est connecté(e)
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends! We have laws defining what the Civil Service is.
[11:13] Rosie Gray: if you are doing it on a regular, scheduled basis, sure it's work
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: one of the rights, yes, Mikelo
[11:13] Mikelo Serevi: this is why I came myself, the democracy
[11:13] Tor Karlsvalt: Gwyn, the tier is paid to the parcel owner, so there really is no accountability as to if a person in a group is paying tier.
[11:13] Mathoni Zuhrah est connecté(e)
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, just to clarify.,..
[11:13] Imotali Antiesse: hehe, I think so too Rosie
[11:13] Kaseido Quandry: so then the questions are, who wants to vote, and who does the government want to vote, or not vote?
[11:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is NO "group citizenship" in the CDS and never was.
[11:14] Tor Karlsvalt: oh yes there is
[11:14] Delia Lake: there could be with a Hippo system Tor. payments can be split
[11:14] Guillaume Mistwalker: There is
[11:14] Mikelo Serevi: hmm, I think you're right gwyn, they just allowed special cases for group land
[11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is something slightly different. If one citizen buys land, then joins a group of another citizen who owns land, and both agree to join the land together but only one pays... then both are citizens.
[11:14] Rosie Gray: yes, how do we know who are citizens through a parcel-owning group?
[11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Milkelo
[11:14] Guillaume Mistwalker: Exactly, Rosie
[11:15] Tor Karlsvalt: so this is a distiction without a difference
[11:15] Mikelo Serevi: yes, this was the one difficulty, and why some wanted to abolish group ownership
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We don't, Rosie., that's why the actual law (which has been so foten misinterpreted!) doesn't allow that.
[11:15] Rosie Gray: the Hippo systems work very well
[11:15] Indicator Board (Business Ver): Arria Perreault is away!
[11:15] Rosie Gray: okay, that's what I thought Gwyn
[11:15] Guillaume Mistwalker: Then, if it's being misinterpretted, there's something wrong with the law, hon
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry:
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, but with its application.
[11:16] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, then there's something wrong with it still, isn't there?
[11:16] Mikelo Serevi: I think laws can always be spun
[11:16] Tor Karlsvalt: See if we need to change the law, then we should state the problem we are trying to solve.
[11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was created for a specific context... partners living in the CDS
[11:16] Mikelo Serevi: but what I found last time was, we needed to clarify it, certainly
[11:16] Rosie Gray: exactly Tor
[11:16] Guillaume Mistwalker: Then adopt a partner policy, not a group policy.
[11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm all for eliminating that law, once and for all, we ought to have done that eons ago.
[11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed, Guillaume!
[11:16] Tor Karlsvalt: Arria, did yoiu find any groups with more than one citizen in the old CDS?
[11:17] Guillaume Mistwalker: And I agree Tor
[11:17] Rosie Gray: yes a partner policy absolutely makes sense
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I like that much better.
[11:17] Tor Karlsvalt: and a partner is easy to proove
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes!
[11:17] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed
[11:17] Delia Lake: @ Gwyn, iRL, I am a citizen of the city of Boston, the state of Massachusetts, and the country of the USA--and have voting rights in all 3. I live with my husband and have for 35yrs. I did not and do not have to establish residence separate from him first in order to be considered a citizen when we share our space---a small 2 person group. iRL we each contribute to the "tier" When our children lived at home our group size was 5, but still there were only 2 citizens and 2 payers
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Delia, iRL, the US government doesn't need to pay a lease on the land it manages on behalf of the citizens.
[11:18] Guillaume Mistwalker: I think you're relating too much to RL
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We sadly have to.
[11:18] Guillaume Mistwalker: Agreed.
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Convince LL to forfeit our tier, and I'll be the first to drop that requirement!
[11:18] Mikelo Serevi: yes, it breaks down a bit comparing to RL
[11:18] Kaseido Quandry: wait, tier payment is a completely different issue from voting
[11:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: you still have to pay it, Kas
[11:19] Rosie Gray: I disagree, in RL the government has to maintain infrastructure and other services, that it taxes its citizens on
[11:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: you can make it as different as you wish.
[11:19] Delia Lake: yes, it does Gwyn. my taxes to the city of boston pay for the maintenance of the public lands
[11:19] Mikelo Serevi: it's more like paying for a web site together here
[11:19] Kaseido Quandry: of course, but that's a *completely separate matter* from who votes in elections
[11:19] Imotali Antiesse: I remembered someone mentioned base on specified size of your parcel for group citizenship, has this been re-mentioned?
[11:19] Tor Karlsvalt: Ok, if we change this policy, how is CDS affected
[11:19] Delia Lake: not in any detail, Imo
[11:19] Tor Karlsvalt: who will be disenfranchised?
[11:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok Kas, then how do you propose to pay tier, if suddenly everybody wants to be elected and nobody wants to pay or tier?
[11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *for
[11:20] Guillaume Mistwalker: We become more devoted, I believe
[11:20] Indicator Board (Business Ver): Arria Perreault is online!
[11:20] Rosie Gray: hmmmm
[11:20] Mikelo Serevi: in CDS, I'm not sure if anyone will be, tor
[11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why should a few pay for others to enjoy themselves? Look, there is a difference between altruism and being functional.
[11:20] Kaseido Quandry: I don't think very many people pay tier *in order to vote*, given how low the voter turnout is
[11:20] Tor Karlsvalt: btw willing to get married to share tier
[11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so?
[11:20] Kaseido Quandry: people pay tier to rent parcels here
[11:20] Rosie Gray: it's a very important question, about paying tier
[11:20] Imotali Antiesse: I like to know more of that Delia
[11:20] Rosie Gray laughs at Tor!
[11:20] Kaseido Quandry: lol!
[11:21] Arria Perreault: I think we had already thought to that, Tor
[11:21] Guillaume Mistwalker: haha
[11:21] Arria Perreault: in a previous commission
[11:21] Imotali Antiesse: I hear wedding bells..
[11:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn points out that there IS a way for people to get paid for their work. We created the Civil Service for those who don't want to pay for tier out of their pockets, but are willing to work
[11:21] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:21] Delia Lake: everyone who is a citizen should contribute to the tier, i believe. but that doesn't mean to me that each has to "own" a tiny tiny segment of a LL server that is assigned to the sims of the CDS
[11:21] Kaseido Quandry agrees with Delia
[11:21] Rosie Gray: I agree completely Delia
[11:21] Mikelo Serevi: well, the thing about land is that it's finite
[11:21] Rosie Gray: it is pointless, and even creates a negative impact
[11:22] Arria Perreault: Delia, where is the interest to pay?
[11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The idea was: some people want to volunteer work, but they don't want to put money into SL. So we pay for their work. With those L$ they can buy a plot and become full citizens.
[11:22] Mikelo Serevi: a group can be expanded at will
[11:22] Arria Perreault: what do you get for this citizenship tax?
[11:22] Guillaume Mistwalker: I think if you contribute a certain amount to the CDS, you should be considered a citizen...
[11:22] Tor Karlsvalt: ok, I am for a group membership to gain citizenship.
[11:22] Arria Perreault: nobody will pay it
[11:22] Delia Lake: the payment is attached to the payment boxes
[11:22] Guillaume Mistwalker: And with that, I must go
[11:22] Tor Karlsvalt: if we must change this system
[11:22] Kaseido Quandry: Arria! You're sounding like me now!
[11:22] Rosie Gray: see ya Guillaume!
[11:22] Tor Karlsvalt: well that is ok if nobody pays it.
[11:22] Guillaume Mistwalker tips his hat to everyone and bows.
[11:22] Tor Karlsvalt: ok Gui
[11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm definitely against tying citizenship to group membership. Citizens can still be citizens and form whatever groups they wish.
[11:22] Tor Karlsvalt: see you later.
[11:22] Kaseido Quandry: if you think that the vote is worthless, well, that's quite a statement about your government
[11:22] Arria Perreault: see you
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: bye guillaume
[11:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's not worthless!
[11:23] Kaseido Quandry: Arria just said nobody would pay for it
[11:23] Kaseido Quandry: *I* disagree, actually, but -
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: I think the turnout is fair, actually
[11:23] Rosie Gray: I don't think that's true, but it would depend on how much it was
[11:23] Tor Karlsvalt: If yoiu paid to the group, you would be contributing to tier.
[11:23] Arria Perreault: Kas, find me five people who are agree to pay only to vote twice a year ...
[11:24] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, I think you're right at a fundamental level
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but how do you manage that, Tor? Group payments are not centrally recorded
[11:24] Arria Perreault: I really think that the group citizenship is a better solution
[11:24] Tor Karlsvalt: But you said arria that there are already 7 ppl
[11:24] Mikelo Serevi: but group citizenship was only ever an exception, now we're talking about making it the rule
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly!
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm still for totally abolishing it.
[11:24] Arria Perreault: there are 7 people who pay 100 L$ a month in original CDS
[11:24] Kaseido Quandry: and I think that's an indictment of the whole system of elected representatives
[11:24] Tor Karlsvalt: (unless they don't pay, and the group owner is just paying for them to have a vote.)
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, I'm not against Government rentals via Hippo boxes.... I'm fine with that as a basis for citizenship
[11:25] Kaseido Quandry: if the value of participating in that system is zero, then teh value of that system is zero
[11:25] Arria Perreault: as Sudane as explaned to me, they are technically attributed to tiny plots now
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a tautology, Kas you're right hehe
[11:25] Delia Lake: so for example, say i turned my NFS P26O into a group owned land. it is 1584 sqm. and 3 people in that group contributed to the tier, the equivilent of 3 x 512+ plots. how would that be different than each of us owning separately 512 plots in NFS?
[11:26] Kaseido Quandry: then we're agreed that the elected legislature has no value? 
[11:26] Rosie Gray: how would it be tracked though, Delia?
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's just the accounting, Delia, If the Government places 3 Hippo boxes in your land, I'd be happy with it.
[11:26] Arria Perreault: Residents of SL receive citizenship in the CDS by owning land in one of the territories administered by the CDS, and by agreeing to comply with the laws and covenants of the community. The citizen, who shall be a RL person presenting themself as a single SL avatar, may hold land either through individual ownership (in which their name is displayed on the "About Land" page of their parcel), or through membership in a group (in which the group name is displayed as "owner" on the "About Land" page of their parcel). The group shall own, compliant with the covenants regarding maximum ownership by any single citizen, at least 128 sq meters of land for each individual whose citizenship is qualified by that land.
Furthermore, each citizen shall be required to pay their monthly fee for land ownership, in person, each month, at the sim location established for this purpose. Individual owners shall pay the entire cost of their parcels in this manner. Group members shall allocate among themselves each member's share
[11:26] Tor Karlsvalt: I think there is more to citizenship than voting for RA
[11:26] Delia Lake: it could easily be tracked through the hippo system, Rosie
[11:27] Arria Perreault: what are the other rights and duties of citizen?
[11:27] Rosie Gray: yes true
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, yes, Tor, there is: complying with Const. and laws
[11:27] Kaseido Quandry: ok, we need to be clear on that, Tor - what is this thing called citizenship?
[11:27] pixivor Allen est déconnecté(e)
[11:27] Arria Perreault: we should make a list
[11:27] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, how is that different from rental subject to a covenant?
[11:27] Mikelo Serevi: right tor, it's the vote, but also a place to live
[11:27] Imotali Antiesse: I am for group ownership policy with member pay/not pay tier contribute to well-being of the group property and activities and the sim too.
[11:27] Arria Perreault: we have the right to vote and to be candidate
[11:27] Tor Karlsvalt: have a contribution and say in building sims, designing sims, buying sims, buildings, etc
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with a rental subject to a covenant, so long as we can *track* who is paying for what, Kas.
[11:28] Tor Karlsvalt: yoiu could care a twit for the RA and just be ingtersgted in the NG.
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As you have noticed, *tracking* who is paying is currently our worst nightmare
[11:28] Kaseido Quandry: everybody else in SL manages -
[11:28] Arria Perreault: we have to respect, the Constitution, the laws and the convenants
[11:28] Tor Karlsvalt: eys Gwen, we should use the Hippo system
[11:28] Mikelo Serevi: mainly because of the groups, gwen
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: nobody else in SL is a representative democracy
[11:28] Rosie Gray: should invest in a Hippo system then
[11:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sure.
[11:28] Rosie Gray: it would help
[11:28] Kaseido Quandry: for good reason, Gwyn
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they prefer benevolent dictatorships, Kas
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: old story hehe
[11:29] Mikelo Serevi: well, I heard AA is not able to cover their expenses
[11:29] Arria Perreault: I think the system is not that important
[11:29] Tor Karlsvalt: we already have one in AA, just have to extend it.
[11:29] Rosie Gray: some of them aren't all that benevolent, Gwyn!
[11:29] Mikelo Serevi: so, the hippo system may not solve all ails
[11:29] Arria Perreault: Tor, I though AA was CDS 
[11:29] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:29] Mikelo Serevi: it's the trouble with tyrannies, they don't have to be benevolent
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: true, Rosie ))
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: alas, indeed, Mikelo
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: in SL at least if they're not benevolent enough, people go elsewhere
[11:30] Kaseido Quandry: in a free market with very low transaction costs, if they want to keep tier paid, you bet they are benevelonet, Mikelo
[11:30] Tor Karlsvalt: Ok say we change the law to one parcel one vote, what are the effects?
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes... like Kas said
[11:30] Kaseido Quandry: yep Gwyn
[11:30] Arria Perreault: Tor, it's against the principle of equality
[11:31] Arria Perreault: I really think the current law is not thaat bad
[11:31] Tor Karlsvalt: I thought that was where RA was moving last term.
[11:31] Mikelo Serevi: it's more a customer relationship than what CDS citizens have though
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: of course, Mikelo
[11:31] Rosie Gray: would that mean I'd get 2 votes if I own 2 parcels though?
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: nooo
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[11:31] Rosie Gray: or 5 if I own 5 parcels?
[11:31] Arria Perreault: what do you want? hundreds of citizen who don't know each other?
[11:31] Rosie Gray: lol
[11:31] Mikelo Serevi: no rosie
[11:31] Arria Perreault: do you think they will vote, participate, work for the community
[11:31] Arria Perreault: ?
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, I don't worry about *that*, Arria I'm fine with hundreds of citizens hehe
[11:31] Rosie Gray: just asking rhetorically, Mikelo
[11:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they might!
[11:31] Tor Karlsvalt: no Rosie, you're right tho it isn't one parcel one vote.
[11:32] Mikelo Serevi:
[11:32] Arria Perreault: I own several parcels and I have one vote
[11:32] Tor Karlsvalt: more one vote only for landowners.
[11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's "at least one regular financial contribution which we can track down, one vote"
[11:32] Mikelo Serevi: as groups get larger, they lose cohesiveness
[11:32] Mikelo Serevi: over 100 is the limit for humans groups I think
[11:32] Kaseido Quandry: oh, we wouldn't want to lose our cohesiveness....
[11:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn grins
[11:32] Mikelo Serevi: after that, they are just masses of meat popsicles
[11:32] Delia Lake: not necessarily, Mikelo
[11:32] Arria Perreault: small is beautiful
[11:33] Tor Karlsvalt: mik, no offence but that sounds funny in CDS sometimes
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi: true tor
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi: ha ha
[11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, i think that's a separate issue, e.g. elitism vs. expansion
[11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm personally for expansion
[11:33] CLEOPATRA Xigalia est connecté(e)
[11:33] Rosie Gray: me too Gwyn
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi: my apologies to any furries present
[11:33] Kaseido Quandry: good, Gwyn!
[11:33] Imotali Antiesse: my time to sleep. bye all!
[11:33] Tor Karlsvalt: me three
[11:33] Thinkerer Melville est déconnecté(e)
[11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: .... so long as we can track down all financial contributions, I'm happy 
[11:33] Kaseido Quandry: night, Imo!
[11:33] Rosie Gray: bye Imotali
[11:33] Delia Lake: it's a separate issue, Gwyn, but i think they are connected
[11:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: take care, Imo )
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi: bye imotali
[11:33] Delia Lake: good night Imo
[11:33] Tor Karlsvalt: nite Imotali
[11:34] Arria Perreault: you, I was once in Caledon. I have talked with someone who was member of the community. I have asked him: who pays for sims. Do you know his answer? "No idea!"
[11:34] Arria Perreault: bye Imotali
[11:34] Rosie Gray: oh that is true of many sims and groups Arria
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In a sense, yes, Delia... I don't wish to raise the requirements for participation too much
[11:34] Rosie Gray: no idea, and don't care as long as it's not them
[11:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: true, Rosie & Arria
[11:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but there has to be a bottom line, at least until we persuade Ll that we're so cool that we ought to get the sims for free
[11:35] Imotali Antiesse est déconnecté(e)
[11:35] Mikelo Serevi: yes, it would be interesting to see people get kicked out for not coming to club meetings
[11:35] Arria Perreault: do you want that for CDS? nobod knows who is paying for the sims . The consequence is: the one who pay decides
[11:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or, well.,.. if we manage to create a completely different financial model
[11:35] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:35] Delia Lake: so here we hand our money to our CDS treasurer who so far has been very dependable so far as paying LL for the sims
[11:35] Rosie Gray: okay I have to leave now
[11:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn grins @ Mikelo. But some groups actually work that way....
[11:35] Kaseido Quandry: bye Rosie!
[11:35] Tor Karlsvalt: bye Rosie
[11:35] Mikelo Serevi: cu rosie
[11:35] Rosie Gray: bye everyone!
[11:36] Delia Lake: bye Rosie
[11:36] Arria Perreault: Bye Rosie
[11:36] Zeus Argus est déconnecté(e)
[11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You know, Delia, this is just a dream... but I would love to reach a point where the interest on the reserve we have on the bank would pay for all the sims
[11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: then we could open citizenship to anyone and don't ask any financial contribution
[11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but, alas, we're decades away from that hehe
[11:36] Mikelo Serevi: that would require quite a reserve
[11:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes!
[11:36] Delia Lake: LOL @ Gwyn!
[11:37] Tor Karlsvalt: oh Boy Gwyn! Hate to think how much we would need
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know it's utopic!
[11:37] Arria Perreault: we have to create an foundation and find more money for that
[11:37] Tor Karlsvalt: you do htat Gwyn, I will vote to make you Queen.
[11:37] Kaseido Quandry: so people in the past would pay the tier of people in the future - interesting system
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Tor!
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sounds like social security, Kas
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[11:37] Kaseido Quandry: yep
[11:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I know, I know....
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would mostly mean that we couldn't grow.
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyway... forget it... it is just a *dream* anyway, and hardly a realistic one.
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (like most dreams!)
[11:38] Mikelo Serevi: it would create incentives to embezzle, too
[11:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe possibly....
[11:38] Kaseido Quandry: omg yes
[11:39] Tor Karlsvalt: Well, so if we keep things the way they are, what is the affect of that?
[11:39] Tor Karlsvalt: Are there any problems we see?
[11:39] Delia Lake: dreaming is good though. even if not all of a dream is doable sometimes it is the route to something wonderful and doable that you would not have otherwise thought of
[11:39] Arria Perreault: There is a big difference between AA and the original CDS. The building in AA was hired and in CDS it was made by volunteers. For this reason, we have great sims for few money. This is what we have to maintain. Buy a sim is expensive, but not that much. To build it is very expensive. In CDS we have (had) the know how to do that. It is one important point.
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'll have to worry about the ones who are group members, technically have the right to vote, but don't care about paying a single L$. What should we do about them?
[11:40] Arria Perreault: we were a community of builders and land owners. If we chnage this, we change the philosophy of CDS.
[11:40] Mikelo Serevi: it's very hard to track group members
[11:40] Tor Karlsvalt: Well in the current law, it seems that the goups police this.
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (well yes, Delia, that's why I don't totally discard the idea... I just think it's not doable short-to-medium term)
[11:40] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, my proposal was to impose a charter to the groups who give citizenship
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: AH!
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *interesting*
[11:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:40] Mikelo Serevi: how would that work, arria?
[11:40] Arria Perreault: the group owner cnnot do anything
[11:41] pixivor Allen est connecté(e)
[11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and somehow each member gets a Hippo box to pay. Ok, that *might* work,
[11:41] Arria Perreault: we have to make a good model of charter with the duies of the groups owner and the citizen
[11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[11:41] Arria Perreault: yes, single payment of course
[11:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I won't disagree with that idea ㋡
[11:41] Delia Lake: impose a charter?? or just grant a certain number of citizenships to a group depending on overall tier and the expected contribution of those group members
[11:42] Tor Karlsvalt: So the group would still be self policing.
[11:42] Arria Perreault: the group who want to give citizenship have to apply and ahve a charter accepted by the RA
[11:42] Delia Lake: if the group owns the land, the group just as any other land owner has to comply with the covenants
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In theory, we really don't *need* to make groups complicated, we just need to assign Hippo boxes for all group members...
[11:42] Arria Perreault: I am even interested to do that with the Monastery
[11:42] Delia Lake: i think that's more complicated than it needs to be, Arria
[11:42] Mikelo Serevi: that would limit people from creating their own arbitrary groups, right
[11:43] Delia Lake: exactly, Gwyn
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I might agree with Delia on this. We really do not need to make it that complicated.
[11:43] Tor Karlsvalt: That is true MIk, for that it might be good.
[11:43] Arria Perreault: the Monastery can have 24 citizen
[11:43] Mikelo Serevi: the only trouble is, gwyn, I've found software like hippo has a way of vanishing
[11:43] Mikelo Serevi: or the software changes or support drops out
[11:43] Delia Lake: all software can vanish
[11:44] Delia Lake: the sl platform could vanish
[11:44] Arria Perreault: any payment box, Hippo or the current software
[11:44] Arria Perreault: I don''t care
[11:44] Tor Karlsvalt: But if not hippo, there would always be something.
[11:44] Mikelo Serevi: it's something I plan for in RL at work
[11:44] Tor Karlsvalt: hippo allow for more transparency
[11:44] Mikelo Serevi: I've been burned
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, I won't discuss technology, just requirements
[11:44] Tor Karlsvalt: we could have multiple managers with access
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: as Delia says, anything can disappear in SL
[11:44] CLEOPATRA Xigalia est déconnecté(e)
[11:44] Arria Perreault: our system is VERY transparent
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (pr even outside SL hehe )
[11:45] Tor Karlsvalt: Really Arria
[11:45] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:45] Tor Karlsvalt: nope
[11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: why "nope"?
[11:45] Arria Perreault: the Treasure can know who is paying
[11:45] Tor Karlsvalt: we have it from the treasure that she doesn't even have repts on all citizens
[11:45] Arria Perreault: I don't need to see this information inworld
[11:46] Tor Karlsvalt: also she is the only peroson with access to the CDS system i believe
[11:46] Arria Perreault: it's enough when the Treasurer, the Chancellor and the SC can have the datas
[11:46] Tor Karlsvalt: hippo would allow for multiope managers
[11:46] Arria Perreault: I trust Sudane
[11:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm you should ask the specs from Sudane, Tor....
[11:46] Arria Perreault: I don't need to access myself
[11:47] Delia Lake: the SC doesn't have access to that data unless we are given it by the Treasurer
[11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I agree that discussing the technology is not useful
[11:47] Arria Perreault: she published the amount every month
[11:47] Tor Karlsvalt: I would not want to hold everyone's 11.5K UDS without somebody else being responsivle.
[11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the requirements are important, though!
[11:47] Tor Karlsvalt: and i am very honest
[11:47] Mikelo Serevi: but hippo keeps coming up
[11:47] Kaseido Quandry: hear hear Tor
[11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, I agree. I don't remember who has access to the CDS Land Management System
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and perhaps I should know that — but I don't remember
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so I agree, it's not a good situation
[11:48] Mikelo Serevi: I think it's shared by sharing alts
[11:48] Arria Perreault: the most important is that we can see who can vote and who can't
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the CDS Land Management system is web-based, and always has been since 2005
[11:48] Mikelo Serevi: true arria
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly, Arria
[11:48] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Arria
[11:48] Arria Perreault: did you see the datas that Rose has published today?
[11:49] Tor Karlsvalt: But has there really been much of a problem in the past?
[11:49] Kaseido Quandry: exactly, Tor -
[11:49] Tor Karlsvalt: no, haven' seen anything today.
[11:49] Mikelo Serevi: not really tor
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not yet, Arria!
[11:49] Arria Perreault: you should have a look
[11:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok...
[11:49] Kaseido Quandry: I was going to ask, what would happen if we let anybody with an avatar vote?
[11:49] Arria Perreault: now we know exactly who has paid tier in AA
[11:49] Arria Perreault: for how much time
[11:50] Arria Perreault: I have seen that very few people pay in advance
[11:50] Tor Karlsvalt: ok. good.
[11:50] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:50] Abbey Zenith est connecté(e)
[11:50] Arria Perreault: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2999
[11:50] Arria Perreault: Hippo was presented with this advantage
[11:51] Arria Perreault: few are using it
[11:51] Tor Karlsvalt: well in AA's system, if you only have to pay every six months, I suppose one could just not pay until doomesday.
[11:52] Delia Lake: sorry, rl skype and somehow my talk activated
[11:52] Mikelo Serevi: well, at least now we know you're a girl
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:52] Tor Karlsvalt: oh no, mik, SL has voice morphing now
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Tor
[11:52] Mikelo Serevi: I know, Im teasing
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: i know.
[11:53] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:53] Tor Karlsvalt: put the dog back on, she makes a lot of sense.
[11:53] Delia Lake: i don't have morphing on skype
[11:53] Arria Perreault: few minutes are remaining
[11:53] Delia Lake: i don't have morphing actually
[11:54] Arria Perreault: we should conslude this first meeting
[11:54] Tor Karlsvalt: so what do we want to do?
[11:54] Arria Perreault: i will make a summary
[11:54] Mikelo Serevi: ok, thanks arria
[11:54] Mikelo Serevi: it was an interesting meeting
[11:54] Kaseido Quandry: it was - I think we engaged with some interesting issues
[11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: quite so
[11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thanks Arria
[11:55] Tor Karlsvalt: I think I am for doing nothing or the charter thing but would like some limits as to how many citizens a group can create.
[11:55] Arria Perreault: i think we should stuy the possibility to improve the group citizenship in order to open citizenship in CDS
[11:55] Mikelo Serevi: it's simpler to abolish it, but so inflexible
[11:55] Delia Lake: i agree, Arria
[11:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we should study the possibility of getting people to pay and not even be in a group
[11:55] Mikelo Serevi: I think imotali would be out if we killed group citizneship, for example
[11:55] Delia Lake: that's worth looking at also Gwyn
[11:56] Mikelo Serevi: lol gwyn
[11:56] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, it would mean a constitutional change ...
[11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'd have her join the Civil Service, Mikelo
[11:56] Tor Karlsvalt: I have one missgiving in that groups can be forcign conformity for citizenship.
[11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm perhaps, Arria.
[11:56] Mikelo Serevi: just send goons out to grief them until they cough it up
[11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point, Tor...
[11:56] Tor Karlsvalt: well we need to change the law about collections
[11:57] Delia Lake: the constitution can be amended for good reasons though
[11:57] Arria Perreault: we need a 2/3 vote
[11:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope so, Delia
[11:57] pixivor Allen est déconnecté(e)
[11:58] Mikelo Serevi: well, I have to get back to RL, see you all
[11:58] Tor Karlsvalt: bye mikelo
[11:58] Delia Lake: bye Mikelo
[11:58] Arria Perreault: m< sugeestion: we can propose both. An amendment of the bill about group citizenship and an amendment of the art 6 of the Constitution, not linked together. At least we get one change
[11:58] Arria Perreault: by Mikelo
[11:58] Mikelo Serevi:
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm we might just require an interpretation of the constitution by the SC and not a change..
[11:58] Mikelo Serevi est déconnecté(e)
[11:58] Arria Perreault: if we are lucky, we get both
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, actually, no. Arria, you're right.,
[11:59] Tor Karlsvalt: Really should citizenship be in the constitution.
[11:59] Delia Lake: it would be cleaner to have an amendment and a law
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Citizenship is quite well defined. It was one of the bits from Ashcroft, and he's usually very good at drafting rock.-solid legislation hehe
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Delia
[11:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and of course, Tor!!!
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we need to know to whom the constitution applies to
[12:00] Arria Perreault: A citizen of the Confederation of Democratic Simulators is a resident of SecondLife who has been granted title to any land by the Confederation of Democratic Simulators
[12:00] Tor Karlsvalt: I don't think it is in the US constitution.
[12:00] Arria Perreault: it's rather clear, Gwyn
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a lot of things aren't, Tor
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not a good example lol
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the UK don't even *have* a constitution, so it's even a worse example
[12:01] Tor Karlsvalt: you could just add at the end of that Arria, and any other qualifications determined by the RA
[12:01] Arvo Toussaint est connecté(e)
[12:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, "title to any land" can be.... interpreted, Arria. But the truth is that the next paragraph explains that better
[12:01] Arria Perreault: you know, Tor, as RA member, I will vote against such an amendment ...
[12:01] Delia Lake: that though Tor could end up tying up weeks of discussion
[12:02] Tor Karlsvalt: maybe, but would make changes easier.
[12:02] Arria Perreault: the definition of citizenship cannot be changed every 6 months
[12:02] Delia Lake: it would be better to have an amendment and law
[12:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's a big amendment though.
[12:02] Arria Perreault: this amendment has few chances to pass
[12:03] Delia Lake: i'm not so sure, Arria
[12:03] Arria Perreault: that's why I advice to use the group citizenship bill
[12:03] Tor Karlsvalt: well, I We tie our hands to much.
[12:03] Tor Karlsvalt: constitutions should be flexible.
[12:03] Delia Lake: it will take some education about it
[12:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I see where you're getting at, Arria... if we can pass a law where we explain that group membership gives a citizen rights to land — "title to land" — this would give them citizen status, and we wouldn't need an amendment.
[12:03] Arria Perreault: yes, exactly
[12:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: sort of, Tor. The point is that laws are easy to pass, constitution should be way harder to change.
[12:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was the original design
[12:04] Trowzer Boa est connecté(e)
[12:04] Tor Karlsvalt: of course, but somethings are best left to law, not constitutions.
[12:04] Delia Lake: but use the monastery for example. you cannot easily divide that building into 4 separate pieces for example
[12:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: very true, Tor!
[12:04] Delia Lake: that would make no sense
[12:04] Arria Perreault: it's not important, Delia
[12:05] Arria Perreault: the members of this group can use the MOnastery for their projects
[12:05] Delia Lake: yes
[12:05] Arria Perreault: a group need a goal
[12:05] Arria Perreault: a purpose like your VDI
[12:05] Delia Lake: but dividing the space into plots doesn't make sense. payment boxes with names does make sense to me
[12:06] Arria Perreault: this is not the goal, Delia
[12:06] Arria Perreault: look other example
[12:06] Delia Lake: what is your goal, Arria?
[12:06] Arria Perreault: La Convivencia is an institute
[12:06] Lizzo Dreamscape est déconnecté(e)
[12:06] Arria Perreault: in the Monastery?
[12:07] Arria Perreault: The Monastery is a place in Second Life dedicated to wisdom, meditation, knowledge. It hosts exhibitions and a Library whose aim is to present the transfer of texts from the Antiquity to the Middle Age.
[12:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: brb... sorry.... I'm supposed to have another meeting now.... still waiting for people to drop in
[12:07] Delia Lake: re Gwyn's comments on title to the land
[12:07] Arria Perreault: Virtus is a non gouvernmental and non profit organization located in Second Life. It has a SL group to communicate with its members.
The goals of the NGO is the development of activities connected to diffusion of culture, art and scientific knowledge. It is a non-religious and a non-ideological group.
The Virtus Group finance its activities through donations, patronages, sales, land fees. All benefits are invested in management and projects.
Virtus can collaborate with any other SL group or RL entity.
[12:08] Arria Perreault: (extract of the charter)
[12:08] Arria Perreault: ok, Gwyn, i'll let you the floor
[12:08] Arria Perreault: I stop the transcript now
[12:08] Bagheera Kristan est connecté(e)
[12:09] Arria Perreault: I am glad if someone eiher give me the transcrip of the part where I was away or publish it in the forum
[12:09] Arria Perreault: under the thread of the evnt
[12:09] Indicator Board (Business Ver): Gwyneth Llewelyn is away!
[12:09] Arria Perreault: event*
Kas has asked what the difference is between a renter paying tier/obeying the covenant in any other SL community and a voting member of the CDS community doing the same thing, i.e why bother with the voting/citizen business?
For me, part of the answer to that lies in what Arria said, in several places, during the course of the citizenship discussion. She said, and I agree, that what she did not want was to turn the CDS into a community of consumers, leaving a small group of people doing all the work.
The difference between owning land and voting in the CDS community and renting land, for example, from Torin Golding the creator/owner of the ROMA sim group, or Desmond Shang, the creator/owner of Caledon, is that as a citizen of CDS we are responsible for maintaining the pixel platform upon which a group of people with shared but not identical interests can meet and talk to one another.
As a CDS citizen, as a responsible party, we have a vested interest in the success of these CDS builds and in the communities of interest that they support, not just in terms of enjoying them, but in continuing to maintain and possibly expand them. We have (my, my friend’s, my neighbours butt in the fire) motivation to learn how to create and to collaborate virtually across a variety of cultural and technical barriers to MAKE SOMETHING; be it a building, an event, a dress, or most importantly a new idea about how to work together. And because the responsibility rests with us, and not an estate owner, we are especially focused on building ways to collaborate; something that has proven even more problematic in the virtual environment than in our rl one.
And if we decide we are going to participate in a community of individuals, not as a consumer/renter but as a builder/owner, than we need a way to make and enforce communal decisions. Enforcement of community guidelines within SL remains difficult because the only true authority resides upstream at Linden Lab. However, within the context of a universe as made in seven days by LL, it seems reasonable to think in terms of using the idea of a rule of law, developed and administered under a voting system, as the basis for making group decisions about how to collaborate and live together virtually.
Summary of the meeting of the 1st August
Several issues of the group citizenship are discussed. The current law allows land owning group to give citizenship. For example, the Monastery group could provide the citizenship to 24 people. What are the rights of the group owner ? Can the group owner put some citizen out of the group ? The idea of a model of charter that should be approved by the RA is expressed. A modification of this law could be a way to make the citizenship more flexible without a constitutional amendment.
Several people have mentioned the idea to create a citizenship fee. People can become citizen by paying this fee without owning land. This citizen fee would need a constitutional amendment. It would break the link between land ownership and citizenship. Most of the participants have admitted that the payments of the LL fees are important to maintain the sims. Without sims, no CDS.
Several people have also remind the in-world philosophy: the members of the community should be and live in-world.
We have also discussed the rights and the duties of citizen. Some people have said that it would be a pity that CDS become (is) a community where most of people are consumers and where a small group is very active to maintain the sims and the organization. A co-responsibility is important.
Other ideas:
- couple ownership (like group ownership for SL partners)
- applicants for citizenship should be public record