This is the transcript of the 3-September-2006
All people present have consented to be recorded. I cleaned up the text a bit since it was from my history window.
The next meeting will be on 09-September-2006 1pm Linden time at the Das Joy Phim Haus.
Very Respectfully
Ranma Tardis
[10:10] Rudy Ruml: and in spite of that invited me to participate in SL and mentored my doing so. I guess she thought that in SL there is redemption, and I thank her for getting me involve in SLK with all its opportunities. Don't be unkind to Gwyneth Llewelyn for this.
[10:10] Rudy Ruml: Second, I also want to thank Sudane Erato, who regardless of my meat headedness, helped me through the process of buying land
[10:10] Rudy Ruml: with efficient and good humor.
[10:11] Rudy Ruml: Oops, pressed the wrong button. I'm back.
[10:12] Rudy Ruml: I also want to thank Ranma Tardis, who besides also mentoring me, built this seminar and art/democide gallery and deeded it to this group. All I did was hang pictures.
[10:12] Rudy Ruml: Finally, thank you all for coming.
[10:13] Rudy Ruml: Now, the purpose of the group is to promote an understanding of democraxy, and to deal with issues in SL and the RW involving democracy and democratization. Democracy, as I will argue in a moment is really not well understood.
[10:13] Rudy Ruml: This will be, naturally, a democratically run group--as long as you all agree with me.
[10:13] Dayna Aquitaine: sorry
[10:14] Red Parrott: lol
[10:14] Dayna Aquitaine: sounds right
[10:14] Bryce Galbraith: 
[10:14] Abigailanz Gasparini:
[10:14] Dayna Aquitaine: hi all
[10:14] Rudy Ruml: So whatever the group does, which is you all, will be a matter of discussion and if necessary a vote, although I like the method of consensus formation.
[10:14] Rudy Ruml: Any questions to this point?
[10:14] An object named note card dispenser agenda owned by Ranma Tardis gave you Who is Joy Phim.
[10:14] Rudy Ruml: point?
[10:14] Tad Peckham: not here
[10:14] Ashcroft Burnham: *shakes head*
[10:15] Rudy Ruml: Ok, to go on.
[10:15] 3 Prim sofa: Touched.
[10:16] Rudy Ruml: I want to consider democracy itself for a moment and how we normally justify it. There are basically three kinds of justifications. One is that by appeal to natural law. Humanity has a right to be free by virtue of their humanity. This is perhaps the m
[10:17] Rudy Ruml: then there is the appeal to international law. The UN has passed a number of human rights conventions, which since they were ratified, have the status of international law. Which is to say, that by virtue of international law, people have a right to b
[10:17] Red Parrott: Ummm. I wonder if you overtyped the buffer in that last paragraph.
[10:17] Musimba Yellowknife: The last couple
[10:18] Abram Ixtab: 255 max chars
[10:18] Ashcroft Burnham: You just have to press, "return" more often
[10:18] Rudy Ruml: Finally, and the one I find most appealing is that democracy is based on a social contract. One that people would enter if they had a choice. This is to say, that people, if they were ignorant of how they would personally benefit, would choose to free
[10:18] Rudy Ruml: Of course, thee are variations of these three potions, but they suffice here.
[10:18] Red Parrott: Rudy read the above before you type too much more.
[10:19] Rudy Ruml: What is missed in all this, and why I am in SL to make this clear, is the moral justifications for freedom,
[10:19] Rudy Ruml: or what some would prefer to call the utopian justifications.
[10:19] Musimba Yellowknife: I think what is missed in all this is part of your sentences
[10:20] Rudy Ruml: Democracy provides a number of moral goods. And it is these moral goods that I think provide the greatest and most persuasive justification for democracy.
[10:20] Rudy Ruml: I'm going to show this by two charts on a white board.
[10:20] Rudy Ruml: Bear with me. I'm technologically challenged.
[10:21] Rudy Ruml: Thank you. I'm trying to his the return at the comma and period.
[10:21] Rudy Ruml: Is there anything I need to clarify?
[10:21] Ashcroft Burnham: Where the whiteboard is would be good
[10:21] Carla Hassanov: yes
[10:21] Red Parrott: You know a few of the long sentences were cut off.
[10:21] Bryce Galbraith: I would say just keep going and after a while we can maybe have a break/Q&A session?
[10:21] Rudy Ruml: OK.
[10:21] Renee Roundfield: I have something that would work, but it's a Roman rostrum.
[10:22] Ashcroft Burnham: Ohh, keep that for Colonia Nova 
[10:24] Ashcroft Burnham: Rudy, the whiteboard is too big: it sticks out of the edge of the building.
[10:24] Rudy Ruml: Whiteboard coming up.
[10:24] Rudy Ruml: Is that clear to all of you?
[10:24] Tad Peckham: it was, but i no longer see it
[10:24] Ashcroft Burnham: The left was cut off because it bisected the glass wall.
[10:24] Amford Ruttan: I can see it fine
[10:24] Ashcroft Burnham: And it's gone now.
[10:24] Red Parrott: It's gone.
[10:25] Rudy Ruml: Oops. It disappeared.
[10:25] Red Parrott: Maybe it would be better positioned at the far end of the table from you Rudy.
[10:25] Bryce Galbraith: Did it get returned to your inventory?
[10:25] Rudy Ruml: I'm gong to have to play with this later.
[10:26] Rudy Ruml: Anyway, I'll tell you about it. If you look on the charts on the galls, the one I'm trying to reproduce is the right of the pillar.
[10:26] You: hold one Rudy
[10:26] Rudy Ruml: The columns are the degree of democratic freedom in a country for all countries over the 1997-98 period,
[10:26] Ranma Tardis: put it out again
[10:27] Rudy Ruml: Then it also shows the average purchasing power per person, which declines sharply as freedom goes down. In other words the freests countries have the greatest PPP.
[10:28] Rudy Ruml: Next is the Average poverty in a country, according to a UN poverty index. That goes down as the degree of freedom increases.
[10:28] Rudy Ruml: Then there is a human development index also by the UN. ON this also, development--that is human development
[10:29] Rudy Ruml: goes up as freedom increases.
[10:29] Rudy Ruml: The gravity of this table is to show that as the degree of freedom is greater, power is less, human welfare is greater, and so is the adage national income.
[10:30] Rudy Ruml: Thus, on this basis on of the moral goods of democracy is to cut impoverishment and promote the welfare of a society.
[10:30] Rudy Ruml: But, by and large, his is well known among economists and also many of those promoting democracy.
[10:31] Rudy Ruml: The next chart I would have shown, but is on the window, gives the number o deaths by cause. Is shows that in the lasts century, over 74 million
[10:32] Rudy Ruml: people died in famines, some of them purposive. But not one (1) in a democracy. Now, this is little known, but no democracy has ever had a famine.
[10:32] Red Parrott: Excuse me everyone but I have to go.
[10:33] Musimba Yellowknife: Cya, Red
[10:33] Rudy Ruml: Think of what this means for all those hunger groups on the web that are trying to do something about famine and world hunger. None of them to my knowledge realize that promoting democracy would be the long-term solution.
[10:33] Rudy Ruml: Next, is democide. Democide means murder by government. It includes genocide, mass murder politicile, massacres, and so on.
[10:34] Rudy Ruml: IN the last century about 262 million people were murder by governments.
[10:34] Musimba Yellowknife: Almost the population of the United States
[10:35] Rudy Ruml: Here also, democracies far very well, with few exceptions, such, as during the Spanish revolution, democracies do not kill their own. ON the other side, the least
[10:35] Rudy Ruml: democratic countries, the communist ones, murder about 165 million people.
[10:36] Rudy Ruml: Next if international war. The chart would show that democracies by far have the least killed in war, and this is on a scale as are all these statement.
[10:37] Rudy Ruml: The less freedom, the more a country uses its people as though pawns and bullets. Statistically, in international war, democracies have lost about 2.3 million people, while partly freed countries lost 19.1 people, and those unfreeze about 34 million.
[10:37] Rudy Ruml: Then there is civil war, and the same scale shows up. The less democratic, the more people lost in war.
[10:38] Rudy Ruml: So, as far as moral goods are concerned, democracy does not only mean greater health and welfare and less poverty, but it also saves lives by far.
[10:39] Rudy Ruml: On this score, I have a chart in the back on the window, which overtime shows the amount of democide and war killed 1900-1987.
[10:40] Rudy Ruml: It is amazing to look at it carefully, for the tope line shows the among of democide trend, far greater than that for war. This is little recognized.
[10:41] Rudy Ruml: Consider all the libr5ary books on war, shelves full, and yet virtually nothing on democide. Most people think only of the Holocaust, which as horrible as it was amounted to 5-6 million murder, while overall the Nazi's murdered 21 million and Stalin 40+
[10:42] Rudy Ruml: I want to go on to the most important aspect of democracy--rather not aspect, but virtue. But first any questions.
[10:42] Bryce Galbraith: Yeah, on Table 8 ...
[10:42] Musimba Yellowknife: Holocaust killed 11.5 million. Only 6 million were Jews
[10:42] Bryce Galbraith: is #3 on the list Algeria? It isn't very clear on my computer...
[10:42] Tad Peckham: not a question, but a comment. Can you provide links to these un charts? I know they are out there, but the UN website is not very user friendly.
[10:42] Tad Peckham: I guess that was a question....lol
[10:43] Ashcroft Burnham: Is one way of looking at it not this: war, democide and mismanagement of the economy such as to make famines more likely are examples of abuse of governmental power. Democracy is the most effective known method of preventing abuse of governmental power..
[10:43] Rudy Ruml: No, separate out the Holocaust, which is now the word for the Nazi genocide of the Jews. That amounted to 5-6million. But, the Nazis also killed about 15 million others.
[10:43] Rudy Ruml: Russians, Frenchmen, Poles (about 6 million)_, and so on.
[10:44] Ashcroft Burnham: Random executions, less systematic than the holocaust, but greater in number overall?
[10:44] Rudy Ruml: Yes, and executed in all ways, sometimes as systematically as was done wit the Jews.
[10:45] Amford Ruttan: Could you explain the difference between freedom, as you use the term, and democracy? Rudy, you said that within democracies, greater freedom also has specific outcomes. For you, is the most democratic also the freest?
[10:46] Bryce Galbraith: I have a comment too Rudy -- a lot of the wars in Africa and SE Asia have their roots in their histories as colonies of European states from the late 19th to mid 20th centuries ...
[10:47] Bryce Galbraith: with decolonization you had a lot of totalitarian/authoritarian regimes come to power ...
[10:47] Bryce Galbraith: so I guess I just wanted to mention that because the historical background is important too.
[10:47] Rudy Ruml: Yes, last questions first. The European colonization of Africa was deadly. By my estimate, about 50 million were murdered in that.
[10:48] Musimba Yellowknife: And the lands in Africa and the Middle East were divided up to create ethnic tensions
[10:48] Rudy Ruml: At the time, most colonial countries were not democracies, and the least deadly of them were.
[10:49] Rudy Ruml: Not coming out Chicago.
[10:50] Rudy Ruml: Let me mow anyway to the prior question. There is also a scale of freedom for democracies. Essentially there are two types.
[10:51] Rudy Ruml: One is what we call electoral democracies. They have democratic institutions, wide franchise, open election, competitive parties and secret ballot, with period elections. But, importantly, human rights are not observed. Turkey is an example of this today
[10:51] Amford Ruttan nods
[10:52] Rudy Ruml: So, electoral democracies that violate human rights are only middling on freedom.
[10:52] Bryce Galbraith is offline
[10:52] Rudy Ruml: Then there are liberal democracies, which are ones that do observed not only democratic procedures, but also observe human rights. What is most intersecting to me is that
[10:53] Rudy Ruml: it is sufficient for a country to become a democracy, if only an electoral one, for many of the benefits I mention to occur.
[10:53] Rudy Ruml: On this note I want to talk about the democratic peace.
[10:54] Rudy Ruml: I have mentioned that democracies help alleviate poverty, promote welfare and development, and have the least number killed. But some may yawn at this.
[10:55] Rudy Ruml: What is the most telling moral good of democracy is that it is s solution to war, democide, and domestic violence (internal violence).
[10:55] Bryce Galbraith is online
[10:55] Rudy Ruml: I have a large table behind me, a wooden plaque. On this I give the major propositions of the democratic peace.
[10:56] Rudy Ruml: Most important for some it that democracy is a solution to war. A solution, after centuries of research and writing on how to solve the problem of war. We got it. Promote democracy. No democracies have ever made war on each other.
[10:57] Rudy Ruml: Second, democracy is a solution to genocide and mass murder,
[10:57] Bryce Galbraith is offline
[10:57] Rudy Ruml: or what I'm calling democide. While in special circumstances there ahs been some such killing during revolutions or civil war, it is fair to say that democracy is the best solution we have to democide.
[10:58] Rudy Ruml: Also, I should ass, although not part of the democratic peace, that democracy is also a solution to famine.
[10:58] Rudy Ruml: This is astounding, and the major moral good of democracy. A
[10:59] Rudy Ruml: And this is why I'm going to teach a seminar on this under the auspices of this group. People would know about this, and have a chance to ask questions about it, and test it out for themselves.
[10:59] Rudy Ruml: One minute on the agenda.
[10:59] Rudy Ruml: Questions?
[10:59] Abigailanz Gasparini: yes
[10:59] Rudy Ruml: We can go over, of course.
[11:00] Ashcroft Burnham: One question...
[11:00] Ashcroft Burnham: What do you say is the mechanism of the causative link between democracy and famine avoidance?
[11:00] Ashcroft Burnham: Is it the disincentives that democracy creates for misuse of governmental economic power?
[11:00] Abigailanz Gasparini: Democracies are something new in the human history, we have only about one century behind us to judge them. Is it possible to say that democracies wouldn't declare war to each other?
[11:01] Renee Roundfield: Or is it just a tautology?
[11:01] Abigailanz Gasparini: Iran is a democratic country, but we are seeing that something wrong is happening with USA...
[11:01] Renee Roundfield: Countries healthy enough to remain democracies, don't have famines.
[11:01] Rudy Ruml: The flow of information in democracies, and the concern for the next election by democratic representatives. There is also the humanitarian concern.
[11:02] Renee Roundfield: Just as Germany was a democracy before WWII, you conveniently can re label it as it goes wrong.
[11:02] Rudy Ruml: In dictatorships, news is censored and those officials in the region of a pending famine are usually afraid of the consequences of stressing a negative.
[11:02] Ashcroft Burnham: Renee: that might be correct, but isn't the point that one must separate the conditions in which democracy is possible with the good of having democracy in the abstract?
[11:03] Ashcroft Burnham: Once one accepts that it's good to have democracy, one then asks what are the conditions in which democracy can be obtained.
[11:03] Ashcroft Burnham: Those may not be easy conditions, so "have democracy" might not be the only part of the answer to war, democide and famine, but it can still e an important part of the answer, can it not?
[11:03] Rudy Ruml: Yes, Germany was a democracy up to the 1933 elections. But Hitler lost both of the national elections badly, and was appointed in a back room deal. Once he became chancellor, whoever, with the help of violence on the street in the Nazis in the Reichstb
[11:03] Musimba Yellowknife: And do the people want a Democracy and is it good to force it onto them regardless
[11:04] Rudy Ruml: He got the right to rule by decree and this ended democracy in Germany.
[11:04] Rudy Ruml: This idea of forcing democracy on a people is a misconception. The people are being freed from the chains around them. Hardly forcing them to be free. It is like saying that
[11:05] Finn Zeddmore: I find it to be highly contradictory to laud democracies because they haven't declared war on each other, when they routinely declare war on other countries to take their resources.
[11:05] Rudy Ruml: the American Civil War forced the southern Blacks to be free.
[11:05] Renee Roundfield: You cannot install a democracy.
[11:05] Musimba Yellowknife: There are places where people would prefer another form of government
[11:05] Finn Zeddmore: The American civil war only changed the legal status of the blacks, they are still struggling for freedom
[11:05] Rudy Ruml: Yes, democracy does go to war with non democracies, but are the least aggressive among types of governments.
[11:05] Tad Peckham: when people rise up against oppression for themselves, democracy is much more likely to be a success. Installed democracies (like Iraq) typically fail
[11:06] Rudy Ruml: When they go to war, it is because they have been attack (9/11) or perceive a threat against them (Iraq).
[11:07] Tad Peckham: my point is that I am not convinced that democracy is a solution to war. I am not sure that democracies have been around long enough to justify that point.
[11:07] Finn Zeddmore: the united states has invaded physically, sanctioned economically, and built up an entire huge war machine, consistently over the last 100 years without stop, how can you say "least aggressive?"
[11:07] Yogeswari Padar: so, Rudy, are you suggesting that the US is not a democracy? Given our longstanding aggression?
[11:07] Rudy Ruml: Ah, attend my seminar.
[11:07] Yogeswari Padar:
[11:07] Finn Zeddmore:
[11:08] Finn Zeddmore: When's the seminar?
[11:08] Rudy Ruml: On the seminar, it is open to all at any time. But I will impose a simple rule. If you don't do other reading for the seminar, which will be very light, then you cannot ask questions or enter the discussion. You can just lurk, so to say.
[11:08] Finn Zeddmore: that sounds fair
[11:08] Amford Ruttan: indeed
[11:09] Rudy Ruml: It is unfair to people who do the preparation to take up their time with uninformed questions and comments.
[11:09] Rudy Ruml: Anyway, the question your raised will be dealt with in the seminar. It is one of those often asked.
[11:09] Ashcroft Burnham: Um.. Why is the table moving?
[11:09] Musimba Yellowknife: It's haunted
[11:09] Ashcroft Burnham: /l
[11:10] Amford Ruttan: leave the spirits alone Ash, and they will leave you alone )
[11:10] Rudy Ruml: Also, I should say that I don't expect you to take my word for any of this. I'm not one to appeal to authority, nor should you be. Rather, my job in the seminar, is to lead you through the arguments and evidence, and theory so that you can make
[11:10] Rudy Ruml: up your own mind, but informed in doing so.
[11:11] Rudy Ruml: More comments/questions.
[11:11] Rudy Ruml: I should also say that this group, with the permission of members, with also promote democracy related
[11:12] Ashcroft Burnham: Rudy: one question.
[11:12] Ashcroft Burnham: As to the function of the theory of the democratic peace.
[11:12] Ashcroft Burnham: Your research that we see on the walls around us tells us that it is good to have democracy and freedom.
[11:13] Ashcroft Burnham: But, as you said, democracy can't simply be imposed - for that isn't freedom.
[11:13] Rudy Ruml: discussion about events n the RW or SL. One that I will suggest will be about the democratic constitution of the city of which this building is a part--Neifreistand. It is the only democratic region in SL, with a constitution and an elected legislature
[11:13] Ashcroft Burnham: So, the question then arises as to what to do with the theory, precisely - gently persuade people of the merits of democracy?
[11:13] Rudy Ruml: So it will be fun to bring our democratic knowledge to bear on this institution.
[11:13] Rudy Ruml: Questions?
[11:13] Ashcroft Burnham: I shall very much look forward to that
[11:14] Rudy Ruml: Yes, it will be interesting.
[11:15] Rudy Ruml: Well people, before closing Ii want to note the art gallery and democide photos upstairs. The last note and this on the photos. Although the says the Japanese, or the Germans, or the Turks did what you will see, I don't blame the people of these country
[11:16] Chicago Kipling: I guess then that Ashcroft's question will be answered later?
[11:16] Rudy Ruml: tries. They were ruled by thug regimes and if they spoke out, they were killed. Always keep in mind that something like the Holocaust was done by the Nazi government and not the Germans as a people.
[11:16] Rudy Ruml: Thank you all for coming and participating. Cheers.
[11:17] Hieronymousr Reatequi: Cheers
[11:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Thank you for delivering an interesting seminar
[11:17] Tad Peckham: thank you very much
[11:17] Ranma Tardis: clap
[11:17] Abram Ixtab: what is the group name
[11:17] Amford Ruttan: Thanks for coming to SL to visit us Rudy
[11:17] Finn Zeddmore: /thanks!
[11:17] Bee Debs is online
[11:17] Ashcroft Burnham:
[11:17] Hieronymousr Reatequi: /Thanks
[11:18] Ashcroft Burnham: Rudy - do you plan on having many more seminars?
[11:18] Chicago Kipling: Ashcroft, as you're able you should look at the forum. There have been more additions to the thread.
[11:18] Musimba Yellowknife: and which group do we join to hear about announcements?
[11:18] Abram Ixtab: I hear the forum is going to be deleted
[11:19] Finn Zeddmore: where is this forum?
[11:19] Tad Peckham: I had heard the same thing
[11:19] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, not our forum
[11:19] Ashcroft Burnham: Only the SL forums.
[11:19] Rudy Ruml: The one seminar will have meetings for a couple of months. I probably will follow that up with a repeat. The problem is the time. Some people can't make it.
[11:19] Ashcroft Burnham: We have a private forum.
[11:19] Musimba Yellowknife: No Forum? I guess we don't have a vote on that
[11:19] Ranma Tardis: one thing does everyone agree to having what they said recorded?
[11:19] Ashcroft Burnham: I do
[11:19] Rudy Ruml: If you meant would this group have more meetings, yes, depending on the event.
[11:19] Finn Zeddmore: yes, I agree
[11:19] Chicago Kipling: Yes
[11:19] Tad Peckham: yes
[11:19] Abram Ixtab: agreed
[11:19] Ashcroft Burnham: It will be interesting
[11:19] Finn Zeddmore: can I get access to the forum?
[11:20] Rudy Ruml: Forum?
[11:20] Ashcroft Burnham: You can read, but not post until your registration is approved by a moderator.
[11:20] Musimba Yellowknife: So what form of government does SL have?
[11:20] Ashcroft Burnham: The Neufreistadt forum
[11:20] Ashcroft Burnham: http://forums.neufreistadt.info
[11:20] Rudy Ruml: A dictatorship
[11:20] Finn Zeddmore: ok ty
[11:20] Ashcroft Burnham: A democratic one
[11:20] Ashcroft Burnham: Ohh, no, sorry, I thought that you said "Neufreistadt".
[11:20] Ashcroft Burnham: SL doesn't really have a government, as such.
[11:20] Chicago Kipling: Haha
[11:20] Musimba Yellowknife: The Lindens do ave to serve their customers, so it's not a Dictatorship
[11:20] Ludo Merit: An interesting combination of benevolent despotism and anarchy.
[11:21] Rudy Ruml: This city is a democracy under a benevolent dictatorship.
[11:21] Musimba Yellowknife: Heh
[11:21] Hieronymousr Reatequi: haha ha
[11:21] Ashcroft Burnham: Who's the benevolent dictator - the Lindens?
[11:21] Hieronymousr Reatequi: Rudy, Good job
[11:21] Ludo Merit: I consider them benevolent, if sometimes mistaken.
[11:21] Hieronymousr Reatequi: I enjoyed it very much
[11:21] Musimba Yellowknife: Best form of government is a Benevolent Monarchy, but how many monarchs were benevolent
[11:22] Rudy Ruml: NO, SL is a business. In effect, all businesses are internally dictatorships.
[11:22] Ludo Merit: Yep.
[11:22] Ashcroft Burnham: Apart from mutualised building societies?
[11:22] Rudy Ruml: Hier, Thanks.
[11:22] Musimba Yellowknife: They go out of business if they always ignore their employees
[11:22] Chicago Kipling: Glad to have you with us Hieronymousr
[11:22] Musimba Yellowknife: And ignore their customers
[11:23] Ashcroft Burnham: Businesses have different mechanisms for the same sort of feedback as have democracies.
[11:23] Hieronymousr Reatequi: Chicago, question?
[11:23] Chicago Kipling: Yes?
[11:23] Hieronymousr Reatequi: How did you come to this seminar?
[11:23] Amford Ruttan: I think an argument could be made that the market effects pressures on the leadership of businesses in much the same way people effect pressure on governments, by voting with their purchases
[11:24] Rudy Ruml: Yes, that is true, but the question is who has the authority, who appoints.
[11:24] Chicago Kipling: I live in the city and stumbled across it
[11:24] Abigailanz Gasparini: thanks for this meeting Rudy! Now I got to go. I'll follow your activities on the group. Thank again bye-bye! Goodbye everybody!
[11:24] Ashcroft Burnham: The word is "feedback"
[11:24] Ashcroft Burnham: Cheerio!
[11:24] Hieronymousr Reatequi: I enjoyed your questions
[11:24] Tad Peckham: bye!
[11:24] Musimba Yellowknife: The market is affected by the people. Direct relationship
[11:24] Rudy Ruml: Some are und as a pseudo democracy with stockholder elections.
[11:24] Hieronymousr Reatequi: better get going
[11:24] Chicago Kipling: Have good day or night
[11:24] Rudy Ruml: Thanks for coming here...
[11:24] Hieronymousr Reatequi: Cya
[11:24] Finn Zeddmore: Thanks everyone, I joined the group, so I’ll watch for meetings etc.