Thoughts on Names

[Diderot Mirabeau]

Good counterpoints indeed, Patroklus.

While you may be correct in stating that we have no control over who might choose to register a group in our name it seems to me still to be preferable to think of a name among our midst and use that in the future to symbolise that this community has started afresh and discarded the tainted heritage of the original founders.

Furthermore, should anyone subsequently decide to register a group in our name it will be blatantly obvious to anyone even more so than at present that this group has no legitimacy whatsoever.

There might be a need for a counteroffensive in publicty in the SL forums however I for one have been rather overwhelmed by the psychological burden of constantly having to address what two people, who coincidentally were part of this project at one time are saying in the name of the Neualtenburg Projekt. It has drained me psychologically and I believe many individuals of this community have equally felt a shadow looming over all of our efforts and contributions because some very vocal, very rhetorically skilled individuals have been able to lay claim to playing a role with regard to our community through some half-baked association with the name of Neualtenburg.

I do not want to return to the SL forums with the premise that we are fighting a specific opposition, which lays claim to our name. Were I ever to go back to the SL forums it would be with a new name - our own name - which would enable us to disregard the sniping of random people, who claim to have a stake in our future and development simply by the strong linking of people in the SL community between the Neualtenburg name and their avatars.

As I have said before the LL tools for moderation are not conducive for establishing a discussion forum the control of which is passed on from one moderator to the next. LL has given us ample evidence to show that they consider any and all agreements made in world as worthless and they only care about their past example in these cases. A past example which has unfortunately in this case proven to make it completely impossible to establish a discussion forum governed by a community and not by two random founders.

We need to free ourselves of all ties with those very vocal founders, who now seem determined to spend the rest of their SL lives to contest our claim to the name of Neualtenburg and to repeatedly slander this community and its government and who try to exert influence over our political decisions simply because they were the ones to come up with the name originally and have therefore been linked with it in the minds of the SL community at large.

A change of name will provide us with a much needed fresh beginning.

[Dianne]

I am just going to jump in here for a sec cause some of the argument references statements I have made and some of the positions are those I have previously espoused.

Patroklus, in regards my advocation of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater," that was a response to the fact that I believe (no offense to the founders who have left or are still with us), that the bavarian theme, the dense build, and the high altitude of the sim and certain aspects of the governmental structure can also be seen as a liability to us in many ways. I have talked to people who *don't* come to Neualtenburg or who have visited here and not been that impressed, and some of those very things that we are trying to hold onto (esp. the lag and the fog), are some of the reasons they quoted for not wanting to come here or not wanting to come back.

I also think that there is somewhat of a moral argument to be made that large aspects of the theme and the government are the work of the founders (Ulrika and Kendra being only two of them), and that if they explicitly do not want us to use them, then I can see that they might have a bit of a point that way. I don't agree that they have any legal argument at all and I think the decision is up to the people of the city, but I can "feel their pain" I guess.

That's why in the midst of our recent crisis (string of crises?), I many times advocated a "clean slate." It just seemed easier and more sensible to make a clean break. In talking to the rest of the citizens, not many agreed though and ultimately we really have to go with the will of the people or we are nothing at all.

The possible name change and the influx of new blood and new ideas will go a long way towards ensuring our success and changing the way people look at our sim. I believe we can be a popular place *despite* the lag and the fog, but I still think it would be easier without them.

In regards the name issue I go back and forth in my mind a lot. On the one hand this *is* Neualtenburg, it always has been and it certainly seems odd to think of calling it anything else. On the other hand it's a name primarily thought up by Kendra or Ulrika AFAIK and a name they are currently still using for their projects so under what basis should we keep it? On the other, other hand we have the legal right to keep it (IMO), and why should someone who many believe has been so actively destructive towards our community be "given in to"? On the other, other, other hand it's a name with such bad history associated with it that to continue to use it is just to continue to associate ourselves with that bad history.

On balance, although I don't agree with all his reasoning, I think Diderot is right that the very fact that other groups are present both in world and in the SL forums with the same name (and I would add groups who do have some claim to the name), is enough to push the balance in favour of a name change.

I also would not rule out Port Neualtenburg as a failure right off. It is more of a buisness group/artist collective/builders group AFAIK and has a small governmental component really. Kendra is a popular and successful builder and could very well end up attracting good talent and prosper as a result. I myself was very close to putting up a second store in Funadama on Kendras property in the recent past and would consider doing so even now that it is Port Neualtenburg.

If I did it would be a simple buisness decision to locate a store in an area that has a compatible theme and some prospect of success. Not only might other SL players make that same decision I think one or two already has.

[Rubaiyat]

Diderot, I completely understand your desire to shed the psychological burdon that this whole assault on N'burg creates. I feel it too, but I do not think that we can just step away from the issue. You state a lot of good reasons to change the name, not the least of which is branding. I just want to make sure that we do not cave in out of convenience. I am of the opinion that we will continue to be harrassed until we stand up to the bully, if we back down on the name it will just be something else.

I think the project needs a new name to distinguish itself from the single sim too. If in the future we decide to change the name of the sim that is entirely up to the residents, but I want it to be something that we decide to do, and not because we perceive that we have to.

I am not communicating well here. I was astonished at the lengths that Claude and others went to in order to come to an agreement with the person making the claims. They seemed to be very open and considerate even to the point of generosity. I am glad that someone had the patience to do that, but want to move on.

I think also that we need our history. I believe that democracy and consensus are a messy business and all of the ugliness that has happened recently serves to make the government stronger. Mistakes aside we have decided to stick to our core beliefs about democracy, governance, and fairness. Anytime you address those issues you have a learning opportunity, and I am proud of the way our government has handled things.

[Rubaiyat]

Dianne,

I am jumping in a little late, it is that accursed RL thing. I don't think the theme of the sim has anything to do with the reasons I am involved. In fact the fog is one of the most annoying things I can think of in N'burg. Okay it is not the fog, per se, but the fact that the fog crosses into buildings and makes it hard to see until it rezzes properly.

From my understanding the theme and government came from consensus, and as such belong as much to those of us that choose to continue them as to those who started or founded them. I am saying that credit is due, but that is all I am saying. That is perhaps an ethical obligation. The ownership of the project is in the hands of those that are participating in it, not in the hands of those who have abandoned it or been thrown out. This is a MORAL point. Late though I am to the game, I feel ownership like I feel ownership of my city government. Perhaps that is a valid comparison, who owns the "form" of the city you live in? Certainly there is ownership of individual buildings, but the "theme" and the "government?" The people, that is who! And we are the people here. Though it is easy to look at something that comes up on a computer terminal and say "intellectual property" this is not the work of one person, it came into being as a consentual entity.

I personally believe that "their pain" was brought upon themselves. I feel "our pain."

I said before that I see this whole process as messy, but worth it. For that reason I would advocate a celebration of our history. The greatest testament to the ideas of democracy and self governance is that we are still here, and look at all the shit we went through along the way. I have an immense amount of respect for all of you who have struggled through the current crisis and all that preceded it. I am impressed and encouraged by your comittment to this experiment, and it gives me vigor when I am feeling "our pain."

As to the existence of Port Neualtenburg, I don't care. It is obvious that it is a childish attempt to get revenge, and I find it interesting that the opportunity for popular revolution has been all but completely removed. I guess that if you want to control something you shouldn't let people vote on the way it works. Projects created in anger and in response to mean spirited emotions wilt or change, but I digress.

Anyhow, I don't have any personal issues with anyone involved here. I am interested in the experiment and taking it forward because I think it is important in many ways. If you chose to open a shop in the PN, that would be your choice, I would probably come and bug you there when you were online...

rs

[Dianne]

[quote="Rubaiyat":acyuvz3t]... I see this whole process as messy, but worth it. For that reason I would advocate a celebration of our history. The greatest testament to the ideas of democracy and self governance is that we are still here, and look at all the shit we went through along the way. ...[/quote:acyuvz3t]
This is something I can totally agree with. I for one think that once we get our name settled, not only is some grandiose announcement required, but we should also have a gigantic PARTY!

Perhaps Salzie can organise it?

Especially if one of those names with "Freie" in the title wins the vote, we can have a "freedom party," and all dance around on the nice flat fair grounds that have been left in the wake of the deletion of Altenburg.

All we need is a Martin Luther King Avatar to give the "free at last" speech

[quote="Rubaiyat":acyuvz3t]... As to the existence of Port Neualtenburg, I don't care. It is obvious that it is a childish attempt to get revenge, and I find it interesting that the opportunity for popular revolution has been all but completely removed. I guess that if you want to control something you shouldn't let people vote on the way it works. ... [/quote:acyuvz3t]

In fairness to Kendra, my take on it is that I don't think she is looking for government so much as a cooperative artists environment. I am not sure what Ulrika's motivation or expectations of Phase III are. So even though the setup seems autocratic, it's not really ever intended to be otherwise so there is no ulterior motive there.

Port Neualtenburg will be nothing like what we have here AFAICS and what we have here is a truly unique thing. The only real government in SL!

I too, am enthused at this point and hopeful that the dream that the original Neualtenburg Projekt members had can finally become realised with the new "Federation of Republics" (or whatever we finally call it), that we are talking about recently.
[quote="Rubaiyat":acyuvz3t]... If you chose to open a shop in the PN, that would be your choice, I would probably come and bug you there when you were online...[/quote:acyuvz3t]
I am fairly certain that they won't actually have me over there as long as I am associated with this place, and I have no intentions of leaving this place. There is of course a lot of bad blood and wounds take time to heal and all that. My only real point there was that just because someone chooses to associate with Port Neualtenburg doesn't make them automatically evil, they are just folks that disagree with us and have decided to go their own way.

Dianne