[12:00] Lilith Ivory: Hi Pip, Hi Rosie, Hi Mikelo 
[12:00] Mikelo Serevi: hi
[12:00] Rosie Gray: hello everyone
[12:01] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[12:01] Pip Torok: hi ... funny how we all appear at once!
[12:01] Mikelo Serevi: on the dot
[12:01] Pip Torok: hello Rosie!!
[12:01] Lilith Ivory: yea hehe
[12:01] Rosie Gray: 
[12:01] Lilith Ivory: maybe you had a secret meeting before 
[12:02] Lilith Ivory: I know you guys can´t have enough meetings
[12:02] Rosie Gray snickers quietly
[12:02] Mikelo Serevi: I was lounging at my apt
[12:02] Lilith Ivory: Hi Gui
[12:02] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hello!
[12:02] Lilith Ivory: cool you could make it in time
[12:03] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes ㋡
[12:03] Pip Torok: hi Gui!
[12:03] Lilith Ivory: Fern and Gwyn can´t come today 
[12:03] Pip Torok: shame
[12:03] Guillaume Mistwalker: Though, excuse me a second... there are some chocolate chip cookies calling me name...
[12:03] Lilith Ivory: ggrrrrr hehe
[12:03] Lilith Ivory: now I´m jealous
[12:03] Pip Torok: ... cant keepem waiting!
[12:03] Mikelo Serevi: fine, tease us
[12:04] Lilith Ivory: looks like we have a quorum already
[12:04] Pip Torok: good!
[12:04] Lilith Ivory: the agenda and some old notes I found about the issues we want to discuss are in the box
[12:04] Lilith Ivory: I did a little research and hope you did the same
[12:04] Lilith Ivory: ehhe
[12:05] Guillaume Mistwalker: Back
[12:05] Lilith Ivory: wb Gui
[12:05] Lilith Ivory: agenda is in the box
[12:05] Guillaume Mistwalker: Thanks ㋡
[12:06] Lilith Ivory: let´s begin with citizens concerns
[12:06] Rosie Gray glances around
[12:07] Lilith Ivory: no concerns? all happy??
[12:07] Rosie Gray: ㋡
[12:07] Lilith Ivory: Hiya Sonja
[12:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: Rosie, are you concerned about something, dear?
[12:07] Rosie Gray: Hi Sonja
[12:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: Sonja!
[12:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: ㋡
[12:07] Lilith Ivory: great to see you
[12:07] Sonja Strom: Hi everybody!
[12:07] Mikelo Serevi: Sonja
[12:07] Sonja Strom:
[12:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes, great to see you! ㋡
[12:07] Lilith Ivory: RA members are allowed to be concerned also
[12:07] Rosie Gray: Thanks Guillaume, no I don't actually
[12:07] Lilith Ivory smiles
[12:08] Lilith Ivory: Sonja do you have any concerns?
[12:08] Pip Torok: hi Sonja!
[12:09] Sonja Strom: No, no concerns that I want to raise, thank you.
[12:09] Lilith Ivory smiles
[12:09] Lilith Ivory: do you have any additions or chances to the agenda?
[12:10] Lilith Ivory: ok I take this for a no
[12:10] Pip Torok: cd I request making V earlier?
[12:10] Pip Torok: earlier than IV ?
[12:11] Lilith Ivory: Imo IV and V are connected so we should do iV before V
[12:11] Pip Torok: ok
[12:11] Lilith Ivory: but we can vote if you want
[12:11] Mikelo Serevi: how are they connected?
[12:11] Pip Torok: no ... let it stand
[12:12] Lilith Ivory: same bills were made from the same commission at the same time
[12:12] Lilith Ivory: for me it sounds logic to talk about IV first
[12:12] Lilith Ivory: but that´s only my opinion
[12:12] Mikelo Serevi: true, they were passed around the same time
[12:12] Lilith Ivory: yup
[12:12] Lilith Ivory: and it´s in the order you gave me Mik
[12:12] Mikelo Serevi: good point
[12:13] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[12:13] Pip Torok:
[12:13] Lilith Ivory: so do we want to start with III?
[12:13] Lilith Ivory: seems to be most easy to discuss lol
[12:13] Mikelo Serevi: I'm ok with that
[12:13] Pip Torok: ok too
[12:13] Lilith Ivory: good
[12:13] Guillaume Mistwalker: Ok
[12:14] Mikelo Serevi: wow, my items are the whole meeting
[12:14] Lilith Ivory: did anybody find out more about that law since we met last?
[12:14] Lilith Ivory smiles
[12:14] Lilith Ivory: you gave us a lot of work Mik
[12:14] Pip Torok: 13-07?
[12:14] Lilith Ivory: NL 9-3
[12:16] Mikelo Serevi: I haven't researched the stated reasons for it myself. I think the purposeis within the law itself
[12:16] Pip Torok: does anyone have the URL to 9-3?
[12:16] Lilith Ivory: Mikelo?
[12:16] Mikelo Serevi: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=241
[12:16] Pip Torok: in that casse I suggest we discuss the present state of land listing
[12:16] Pip Torok: tks
[12:17] Mikelo Serevi: The last time, as I recall, we were discusing whether removing both #3s or repealing the whole thing
[12:17] Mikelo Serevi: was best
[12:17] Lilith Ivory: well, this law was made in the pre TP aera to prevent unhappy citzens to set thier land for sale for a horrible high prize
[12:18] Mikelo Serevi: pre tp?
[12:18] Lilith Ivory: The Princess Parisi
[12:18] Mikelo Serevi: ohh, lol
[12:18] Lilith Ivory smiles
[12:18] Pip Torok: in that case what shall we do with it?
[12:19] Lilith Ivory: I would just let it like it is as it does not harm anybody
[12:19] Mikelo Serevi: but how is selling at a high price different from not selling?
[12:19] Lilith Ivory: it was just made to help the exec in the worst case
[12:19] Pip Torok: it seems to me that the present arrangement works(?) reasonably smoothly
[12:19] Lilith Ivory: we had a huge yellow spot on the map for a long time
[12:20] Mikelo Serevi: well, you can say that's why it was made, but in fact the exec could invoke this arbitrarily
[12:20] Lilith Ivory: was quite good land but of course nobody wanted to buy it as it wes terrible expensive
[12:20] Mikelo Serevi: I remember the situation now
[12:20] Lilith Ivory smiles
[12:20] Mikelo Serevi: I even looked at the land
[12:20] Pip Torok: but has the worst case happened/ .. and is there danger of it happening again .. I suggest it won't
[12:20] Lilith Ivory: same here
[12:21] Mikelo Serevi: My point about this is that it's essentially statist
[12:21] Lilith Ivory: if the worst case does not happen nobody will use that law
[12:21] Mikelo Serevi: meaning, a few people can decide how everything goes for everyone
[12:21] Lilith Ivory: but if it happends again we need a lot of time to create a law again
[12:21] Pip Torok: well if land is too expensive to sell .. it just lies there!! ... QED probkem "solved"
[12:21] Mikelo Serevi: I think it can take away our freedm to sell our own land
[12:21] Pip Torok: i'm SURE it can, mikelo
[12:22] Lilith Ivory: sure could if an exec goes crazy
[12:22] Mikelo Serevi: So it's a bad law, thoguht the reason might have sounded good at the time
[12:22] Lilith Ivory: but don´t we all trust our government
[12:22] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[12:22] Pip Torok: imo the price and the consequence of setting land too high or low rests squarely with the landowner
[12:22] Guillaume Mistwalker noids
[12:22] Guillaume Mistwalker: *nods
[12:23] Mikelo Serevi: the state shouldn't have the right to take private sales away
[12:23] Pip Torok: I hear it's known as the "market"!!
[12:24] Lilith Ivory: in the former case land sales were only used to hurt CDS
[12:24] Lilith Ivory: but I´m fine either way
[12:24] Pip Torok: ??
[12:24] Guillaume Mistwalker: Perhaps it's me, but where does it say that, Mik?
[12:24] Mikelo Serevi: you are looking at 9-3?
[12:24] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes
[12:24] Pip Torok: it doesnt SAY it Gui .. thats miks opinion
[12:24] Guillaume Mistwalker: I see.
[12:25] Mikelo Serevi: wait, what is?
[12:25] Pip Torok: what you said ....
[12:25] Mikelo Serevi: the law clearly states the exec can turn off the SL land sales
[12:25] Guillaume Mistwalker: The "direct sale function" clause?
[12:25] Mikelo Serevi: under #3
[12:25] Pip Torok: Mikelo Serevi: the state shouldn't have the right to take private sales away
[12:26] Mikelo Serevi: oh, yes, that part is my opinion
[12:26] Pip Torok: and mine too, as you will have gathered
[12:26] Guillaume Mistwalker: Has that function been disabled?
[12:26] Pip Torok: I dont think it was ever put into operation Gui ...
[12:27] Lilith Ivory: I can´t remember it has been
[12:27] Lilith Ivory: as we didn´t need it so far
[12:27] Mikelo Serevi: no, but it could be, the requirements have been met
[12:27] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed.
[12:27] Guillaume Mistwalker: That's my point.
[12:27] Lilith Ivory: and hopefully we will never need it
[12:27] Pip Torok: to start with .. who can really assess the calibre of price-levels without seeing what actually sells?
[12:28] Mikelo Serevi: I think a person who is misbehaving needs to be delat with directly, not by limiting everyone
[12:28] Mikelo Serevi: dealt
[12:28] Guillaume Mistwalker: Give me a scenario where that's happened.
[12:28] Guillaume Mistwalker: Please ㋡
[12:29] Pip Torok: btw was this in princess time or CLEO's?
[12:29] Lilith Ivory: Princess time
[12:29] Guillaume Mistwalker: (Princess time?)
[12:29] Pip Torok: please Gui .. I suggest this is procrastimating
[12:29] Lilith Ivory: didn´t she have most of downtow CN for sale?
[12:30] Mikelo Serevi: Anyway, I think this is the wrong law to deal with this kind of thing anyway
[12:30] Lilith Ivory: but you need a law to deal with a misbehaving person imo
[12:30] Guillaume Mistwalker: My concern is, how would such a central system be operated and run in such an event.
[12:30] Mikelo Serevi: lots of bad laws get passed with an enemy as the excuse
[12:31] Guillaume Mistwalker: And who would.
[12:31] Pip Torok: exactly ... now the way to go ... do we repeal the whole thing?
[12:31] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, what system are you suggesting in place of this, Pip?
[12:32] Pip Torok: My suggestion is to leave the whole function to the discretion of the Exec ...
[12:32] Mikelo Serevi: Well, only #1 really applies
[12:32] Lilith Ivory: what does that mean exactly Pip?
[12:32] Pip Torok: and not to pass legislation .. simply repeal existing bad legislation
[12:32] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes
[12:32] Mikelo Serevi: #2 appears to refer to another law
[12:32] Guillaume Mistwalker: Isn't your suggestion the near same as the law?
[12:33] Lilith Ivory: don´t forget english is not my first language please
[12:33] Pip Torok: no ... because discretion is not binding upon the parties
[12:33] Mikelo Serevi: You do quite well, lilith
[12:33] Lilith Ivory: I just want to understand exactly what Pip means
[12:34] Pip Torok: well .. the exec atm list land for sale in the Forum and sellers update this
[12:34] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes, but isn't the exec given discretion under this law?
[12:34] Mikelo Serevi: in #1, yes
[12:34] Mikelo Serevi: before, it was mainly Sudane, am I right?
[12:34] Lilith Ivory: I understand you want the exec deal with this like they want?
[12:35] Pip Torok: ppl buy and sell freely via forum and everyone is happy I believe ... therefore no law needed
[12:35] Mikelo Serevi: although, I see no reason why the exec couldn't still facilitate, as he does now
[12:35] Mikelo Serevi: I think we should remove the whole law, rather than leave a snippet
[12:35] Pip Torok: thats right, Lilith ...
[12:35] Guillaume Mistwalker: I see this law as a temporary solution in the event someone does go off the deep end and sells all their parcels
[12:35] Lilith Ivory: I see
[12:36] Pip Torok: "if it works, don't fix it"
[12:36] Guillaume Mistwalker: And isn't this Law giving the Exec. discretion to do that, Pip?
[12:36] Pip Torok: i see it as a halter round our necks ...
[12:36] Mikelo Serevi: yes, but next time a person might go off the deep end and do something else
[12:36] Guillaume Mistwalker: There are many things we can do when we go off the deep end, Mik ㋡
[12:37] Pip Torok: disagree .. lets deal with ACTUAL worst cases, not hypothetical ones
[12:37] Lilith Ivory: what Pip suggests might give the exec even more power to stop private land sales
[12:37] Guillaume Mistwalker: And that's what I asked for - actual worst cases.
[12:37] Mikelo Serevi: well, repealing won't grant that power, anyway
[12:37] Pip Torok: only if they went completely round the bend! .. and they ARE accountable to us, Lilith
[12:37] Lilith Ivory: I know that
[12:38] Guillaume Mistwalker: I feel like you're for repealing this law for the same reason I think it was implimented
[12:38] Mikelo Serevi: guil, I guess having someone sell their land at a really really high pricewas the worst I've heard
[12:38] Pip Torok: ("round the bed = insane, Lilith)
[12:38] Lilith Ivory: lol got that
[12:38] Lilith Ivory: I just wonder why you want to take that law back and give the exec the power to do it anyway
[12:38] Pip Torok: but Mik ... all that wd happen is 1) the land wdnt be sold or 2) some fool wd buy the land
[12:38] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed
[12:39] Mikelo Serevi: I agree, Pip
[12:39] Pip Torok: well that law has never been put into practice ...
[12:39] Guillaume Mistwalker: We can always just change the law after he does it, but why now when there aren't any reasons to change it?
[12:39] Lilith Ivory: I agree with you Gui
[12:40] Pip Torok: well precisely because it IS serving no useful purpose, gui
[12:40] Lilith Ivory: imo a lot of smart people were thinking about this law before it got aproved
[12:40] Lilith Ivory: you might have even been one of them Pip
[12:40] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, I think it having a potential purpose is better than leaving it up to the discretionof the exec
[12:40] Pip Torok: I hope not!
[12:41] Lilith Ivory: but you were in the RA at this time right ?
[12:41] Pip Torok: because we still have an insurmountable hurdle ... who knows when a price is exorbitant??
[12:41] Lilith Ivory: I totally agree with you Gui
[12:42] Guillaume Mistwalker: Thanks ㋡
[12:42] Pip Torok: maybe ... but that was then, this is now
[12:42] Guillaume Mistwalker: Though, it looks like we're at a dead-lock...
[12:42] Mikelo Serevi: well, without this law, the exec won't be granted any specifi power over land sales
[12:42] Guillaume Mistwalker: Pip, things don't change *that* fast, I think it still applies to now
[12:42] Mikelo Serevi: it would be shared with the treasury, like before
[12:43] Mikelo Serevi: How about the other part of it, then?
[12:43] Lilith Ivory: imo exec has some power over land sales anyway
[12:43] Guillaume Mistwalker: I agree, Lil
[12:43] Mikelo Serevi: the other thing about it that bothers me is that I think it was part of a trend to centralize power, and I really oppose that
[12:44] Mikelo Serevi: some smart people maybe thought they were smarter than everyone else...
[12:44] Pip Torok: my point entirely Mik ...
[12:44] Guillaume Mistwalker: Centralise the power from where, exactly?
[12:44] Lilith Ivory: I can´t even remember who was in power Jan 2009 lol
[12:44] Pip Torok: from where I see it, the exec are performing a service by informing us all of current sales
[12:45] Mikelo Serevi: in the state
[12:45] Pip Torok: from the power of a buyer and seller to do their own thing, Guillaume
[12:45] Guillaume Mistwalker: There is no other body in the state that had power over land sales before the law was passed, was there?
[12:45] Mikelo Serevi: I think some power needs to be held, but not over things like private land sales
[12:46] Pip Torok: no Gui ...
[12:46] Mikelo Serevi: I think unowned parcels were dealt with by the treasury
[12:46] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, I don't think that that right is abridged yet or would be without reason.
[12:46] Pip Torok: ??
[12:46] Mikelo Serevi: The law doesn't say that
[12:46] Guillaume Mistwalker: The right for a buyer to buy or a seller to sell.
[12:46] Mikelo Serevi: it just says it can be enacted
[12:46] Pip Torok: I didnt understand, Guillaume
[12:46] Guillaume Mistwalker: Exactly.
[12:47] Guillaume Mistwalker: Enacted, within reason
[12:47] Guillaume Mistwalker: The Exec. would act as a mediator
[12:47] Mikelo Serevi: Once you have the power, you can give any reason you like
[12:47] Mikelo Serevi: or no reason
[12:47] Lilith Ivory: and imo the RA has to give allowance to do so
[12:47] Mikelo Serevi: well, this law says nothing about opinion, it just grants powe
[12:47] Mikelo Serevi: r
[12:47] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, the Exec already has the power, but he hasn't had the reason to use it
[12:48] Mikelo Serevi: I'm not saying I distrust tor
[12:48] Mikelo Serevi: I just think this is to much power
[12:48] Pip Torok: exactly ... and so the whole law is redundant and should be repealed
[12:48] Mikelo Serevi: what if this law were passed in RL?
[12:48] Guillaume Mistwalker: Nor am I, but let's be real and not work on the hypothetical, as you said
[12:48] Mikelo Serevi: I have to sell my house through the govt?
[12:49] Pip Torok: I hope not, Mik!
[12:49] Guillaume Mistwalker: Obviously, many would have qualms with this in RL, but this isn't RL
[12:49] Pip Torok: but the intrusion wd apply equally in sl as it wd do in RL ...
[12:49] Mikelo Serevi: I don't see the difference here
[12:49] Long Range: danialthomas44 Resident [43m]
[12:49] Guillaume Mistwalker: We must repond to parcels being sold -- working with your example -- at high prices
[12:49] Guillaume Mistwalker: Do I hear...
[12:50] Pip Torok: must respond???? how??
[12:50] Guillaume Mistwalker: Arabic music?
[12:50] Mikelo Serevi: someone was playing it in voice, gone now
[12:50] Guillaume Mistwalker: Ah.
[12:50] Lilith Ivory: lol
[12:50] Guillaume Mistwalker: Haha ㋡
[12:50] Mikelo Serevi: did he leave or was he kicked?
[12:50] Guillaume Mistwalker: Leave, I think
[12:50] Guillaume Mistwalker: I sort of liked it. ㋡
[12:50] Mikelo Serevi: lol
[12:51] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[12:51] Guillaume Mistwalker: But, Pip, if we didn't respond to high prices, then the parcel would mostlikely not sell
[12:51] Pip Torok: anyway Guillaume .. WHY must we respond?
[12:51] Lilith Ivory: want me to put my arabic music stram here?
[12:51] Guillaume Mistwalker: Is that good for ANY PARTY?
[12:51] Pip Torok: exactly and so the situation wd correct itself via a non-sale
[12:51] Guillaume Mistwalker: *meant to capitalise the "any"
[12:52] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes, but obviously the seller wanted to let go of their financial obligation on that parcel whilst gaining money
[12:52] Guillaume Mistwalker: The buyer wants to buy
[12:52] Guillaume Mistwalker: And we generally want tiers being paid
[12:52] Pip Torok: "obviously" ... i dont get "obviously"
[12:53] Mikelo Serevi: this person was also not paying tier, but Tor's law closed that hole
[12:53] Guillaume Mistwalker: High prices lower the chances of a parcel being bought
[12:53] Pip Torok: yes ... but tiers are fixed on the onset of occupartion
[12:53] Guillaume Mistwalker: That's good
[12:53] Mikelo Serevi: at the time, it appeared she was just trying to make the place look bad
[12:53] Pip Torok: so what guillaume ... thats the concern of seller and buyer ...
[12:54] Mikelo Serevi: but because someone is doing that in CN, I can't sell in AM?
[12:54] Guillaume Mistwalker: And I argue that any democratic government has a right to look out for its interests of the state as well
[12:54] Guillaume Mistwalker: If you want, I would argue a small revision of the act, then.
[12:54] Mikelo Serevi: it does yes, without infringing on personal freedoms
[12:55] Mikelo Serevi: but this is quite an intrusion
[12:55] Pip Torok: and my argument is that a democratic government shd realise what is the citizens concern alone, and what neeeds wider involvement
[12:55] Guillaume Mistwalker: Have the Exec. act as mediator in certain cases to promote the transfer of parcels
[12:55] Mikelo Serevi: wouldn't the exec do that anyway?
[12:56] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes, but by the means of this central system on a case-by-case system
[12:56] Pip Torok: no ... imo that wd be an intrusion upon citizens activities...
[12:56] Guillaume Mistwalker: Therefore, if I was selling for alot of money, then Mik's or Pip's sale wouldn't be hindered
[12:56] Pip Torok: imo buying/selling is selfregulating
[12:57] Guillaume Mistwalker: It would be an intrusion within reason
[12:57] Mikelo Serevi: I don't think there could be a law to cover all cases
[12:57] Pip Torok: i dont think one sale wd affect another sale
[12:57] Mikelo Serevi: someone would just look at the law and find a way to toe it
[12:57] Guillaume Mistwalker: If there's any other qualms, have the money that's raised go to the seller (which, I don't think the law specifies...)
[12:58] Pip Torok: DISAGREE
[12:58] Mikelo Serevi: anyway, I think this "reason" for the law is an excuse to take that power away froom everyone
[12:58] Guillaume Mistwalker: Disagree?
[12:58] Pip Torok: money is _private_ to either party
[12:58] Pip Torok: imo
[12:59] Guillaume Mistwalker: So, you don't want the money that the buyer pays to the government for one's parcel go to the one who sells the parcel?
[12:59] Mikelo Serevi: also, the current system, while not perfect, is well understood
[12:59] Pip Torok: i want the government to be totally uninvolved i private sales, period
[12:59] Mikelo Serevi: but why should the govt be involved?
[12:59] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes, which hinders the system that sets up by this bill, which makes its power limited.
[13:00] Guillaume Mistwalker: To preserve the integrity of the sims
[13:00] Pip Torok: so scrap the bill, guillaume ... is there a problem with that?
[13:00] Mikelo Serevi: What's next? wiretapping laws?
[13:00] Guillaume Mistwalker: If I sell very high and sell all my parcels, what does that show about us?
[13:00] Mikelo Serevi: for the good of ther state, of course
[13:00] Guillaume Mistwalker: For the good of the Democracy, Mik
[13:00] Pip Torok: it shows that we are an interesting sim, guillaume!
[13:01] Mikelo Serevi: so you would support wiretapping?
[13:01] Mikelo Serevi: if I said it was for democracy?
[13:01] Guillaume Mistwalker: It shows that we're selling a small parcel for a large sum of money
[13:01] Sonja Strom giggles
[13:01] Guillaume Mistwalker: Do you want my honest opinion, Mik?
[13:01] Mikelo Serevi: you weren't giving it before?
[13:02] Pip Torok: Guillaume in SL and RL ppl are FREE to buy or sell at any agreed price ... just what is the problem with that?
[13:02] Guillaume Mistwalker: No, I just wasn't sure if I should or not
[13:02] Mikelo Serevi: why not?
[13:02] Guillaume Mistwalker: I think that a government, whose legitimacy is found on the democratic will of the people, has the right to protect the security and integrity of the same people it finds its legitimacy from
[13:03] Mikelo Serevi: by limiting their freedom?
[13:03] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, having known people who work for NSA, they only wiretap people for whom fit their suspicions
[13:04] Mikelo Serevi: well, so they say, but they would
[13:04] Guillaume Mistwalker: I don't agree with those whom they suspect, but I agree with the principle
[13:04] Pip Torok: yes and the protection resides in the noninvolvement of that government in the private affairs of its citizens
[13:04] Sonja Strom: who they suspect... this can be an issue.
[13:04] Guillaume Mistwalker: Which is my issue, too, Sonja
[13:04] Guillaume Mistwalker: The princple, no.
[13:04] Mikelo Serevi: there's a line, where no one should intrude
[13:05] Mikelo Serevi: the reason I brought it up is because it's the same kind of insinuation into people's lives
[13:05] Sonja Strom begins to wonder about the others in this room (only kidding)
[13:05] Mikelo Serevi: govts that have done this are not good ones
[13:06] Mikelo Serevi: we're really talking about communal land sales
[13:06] Guillaume Mistwalker: To who's perception?
[13:06] Pip Torok: I propose that NL 9-3 be repealed
[13:06] Mikelo Serevi: mandatory communal land sales
[13:07] Mikelo Serevi: I second
[13:07] Guillaume Mistwalker: Actually, I was talking about the governments comment.
[13:07] Pip Torok: may I respectfully suggest we move to a vote?
[13:07] Pip Torok: weve gone round in circles here...
[13:08] Lilith Ivory: well let´s vote than or do we need more discussion?
[13:08] Guillaume Mistwalker: I'm good to vote
[13:08] Pip Torok: lets vote
[13:08] Mikelo Serevi: yes
[13:08] Lilith Ivory: anybody in favour for repealing NL 9-3 say aye please
[13:08] Pip Torok: aye
[13:08] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[13:09] Lilith Ivory: Gui?
[13:09] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hm...
[13:09] Guillaume Mistwalker: Aye.
[13:10] Lilith Ivory: nay
[13:10] Mikelo Serevi has a heart attack
[13:10] Lilith Ivory: we might have to wait for our 7 day votes to see the result
[13:10] Pip Torok revives him
[13:10] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[13:11] Mikelo Serevi: guil really knows how to keep suspense
[13:11] Guillaume Mistwalker: Haha, I also know how to be indecisive ㋡
[13:11] Mikelo Serevi: thinking is a good thing
[13:11] Pip Torok: well we certainly had a debate!! )
[13:11] Lilith Ivory smiles
[13:11] Lilith Ivory likes debates
[13:11] Mikelo Serevi: well, the other item should be easy
[13:12] Lilith Ivory: ya think so?
[13:12] Pip Torok: (famous last words ....
[13:12] Mikelo Serevi: er
[13:12] Guillaume Mistwalker: Term limits, yes, I think
[13:12] Lilith Ivory: ok let´s move forward to IV than
[13:12] Guillaume Mistwalker: Factions, no...
[13:12] Mikelo Serevi: true, yes
[13:12] Guillaume Mistwalker: I don't think that the law makes sense anymore
[13:12] Lilith Ivory: why not?
[13:13] Guillaume Mistwalker: Afterall, last election we didn't have enough candidates
[13:13] Mikelo Serevi: of, so the term limit act
[13:13] Mikelo Serevi: http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=422
[13:13] Pip Torok: 13-07 was introduced to stop ppl becoming near-permanent fixtures in a position ...
[13:13] Mikelo Serevi: Yes, that was one objection to it
[13:13] Lilith Ivory: maybe we should split terms for being chancelor and for RA members
[13:14] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, there are 7 of us and one chancellor...
[13:14] Lilith Ivory: I see that we have a problem to get enough RA candidates
[13:14] Pip Torok: but when you think of it ... when there are not enough ppl , when there are too few incomers ... when there is apathy ...
[13:14] Guillaume Mistwalker: So, next election, we will just have 8 candidates...
[13:14] Lilith Ivory: but with Chancellor it´s different
[13:14] Pip Torok: what then?
[13:15] Guillaume Mistwalker: We need to either amend the time period or repeal
[13:15] Lilith Ivory: somehow I wonder wether we only need 5 RA candidates next term
[13:15] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, we do have two RA members who haven't shown their faces in some time...
[13:15] Lilith Ivory: I think we should treat Chancellor and RA different
[13:16] Pip Torok: we do dont we?
[13:16] Mikelo Serevi: the time period seems to fit anything over a certain length
[13:16] Guillaume Mistwalker: Chancellor should remain the same, but RA shouldn't?
[13:16] Lilith Ivory: yes as chancellor sure has a lot of power ...
[13:16] Mikelo Serevi: well, I think it's more likely that a chancellor could be a dictator
[13:16] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes
[13:16] Lilith Ivory: whie we have problems to find enough RA candidates at the moment
[13:17] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed
[13:17] Lilith Ivory: did you read Gwyns note I included in the box?
[13:17] Mikelo Serevi: we have actually had that problem with chancellors as well
[13:17] Pip Torok: yes but the chancellor can always be thrown out ... and so cant become dictatorial
[13:17] Lilith Ivory: she said a lot of smart things about that
[13:17] Pip Torok: yes and its now history QED
[13:18] Mikelo Serevi: I agree, Pip
[13:18] Lilith Ivory: Hiya Alexia
[13:18] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hi Alexia ㋡
[13:18] Mikelo Serevi: or they couldn't become a dictator without help from the RA
[13:18] Mikelo Serevi: but in that case, we're screwed anyway
[13:18] Pip Torok: with that "help" we neednt hinder!
[13:20] Mikelo Serevi: reading the notecard
[13:20] Lilith Ivory: hope it´s the right one lol
[13:20] Lilith Ivory: had a hard time to find that info
[13:20] Pip Torok: so ... Term limits ... imo in the present paucity of citizens and change, imo its become a deadletter
[13:20] Mikelo Serevi: so this was mainly passed because some people thought the same people were in power
[13:21] Pip Torok: yes ... and it was totally redundant imo because ppl CAN ALWAYS BE VOTED OUT
[13:21] Mikelo Serevi: I think apathy may have had as much to do with that as anything
[13:21] Lilith Ivory: wasn´t you against concentration of power before?
[13:22] Lilith Ivory: if we take this law back we have exactly this case lol
[13:22] Mikelo Serevi: well, the RA is re-elected, or not
[13:22] Pip Torok: me? or mik?
[13:22] Mikelo Serevi: accountable
[13:22] Lilith Ivory: whoever said that
[13:22] Mikelo Serevi: I'm against the concentration of power, yes
[13:23] Mikelo Serevi: but not against some people being elected to hold it
[13:23] Pip Torok: yes me too but i have trust in the constitution to prevent it
[13:23] Lilith Ivory: and having term limits for the Chnacellor might encourage other citizens to run
[13:23] Mikelo Serevi: there will always be power, it's how to fairly apply it
[13:23] Lilith Ivory: Not that I mind having Tor as Chancellor forever ,-)
[13:24] Mikelo Serevi: he's doing well, yes
[13:24] Pip Torok: imo the system is selfcorrecting ... if a chancellor has too much power ... then he/she will be callenged every 6 months
[13:24] Pip Torok: (or is it 12 months?)
[13:25] Mikelo Serevi: should be 6
[13:25] Mikelo Serevi: same as for the RA
[13:25] Lilith Ivory: wasn´t it 12?
[13:25] Pip Torok: how stands the law atm?
[13:25] Lilith Ivory blushes
[13:25] Pip Torok: if its 12 then I wd have opposed it
[13:25] Mikelo Serevi: 12 was the limit
[13:25] Mikelo Serevi: 2 terms, then at least one out
[13:25] Lilith Ivory: yes think so too
[13:26] Pip Torok: well in this term as it happens we're lucky ... I hope it lasts ...
[13:26] Lilith Ivory: looking at our situation now I´d go for keeping thae law for chancellor election and taking it back for RA
[13:26] Mikelo Serevi: it's not a job just anyone can do, we've been pretty lucky so far
[13:27] Mikelo Serevi: I've been on the fence about that, Lilith, but my stance is to just repeal
[13:28] Pip Torok wd be unhappy if the law became unuqually applied to two bodies
[13:28] Lilith Ivory: there are big differences between RA and exec anyway
[13:28] Lilith Ivory: so why not split this law
[13:28] Lilith Ivory is building golden bridges
[13:28] Lilith Ivory: ehhe
[13:29] Pip Torok: itll be one law for one body, another for a second ... divisive!
[13:30] Guillaume Mistwalker: I agree with Lil
[13:30] Lilith Ivory: this law already is not for all our bodies
[13:30] Guillaume Mistwalker: We have more candidates for Chancellor than the RA
[13:30] Lilith Ivory: think about SC
[13:30] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed
[13:31] Mikelo Serevi: hmm, we do have it divded in the USA already
[13:31] Guillaume Mistwalker: Indeed, Mik
[13:31] Mikelo Serevi: although I would be first to say I don't think the CDS should emulate the USA
[13:31] Pip Torok is unhappy to tinker with forethought at the foundations of our Constitution
[13:31] Guillaume Mistwalker: Haha, same
[13:31] Pip Torok: ... without forethought
[13:32] Guillaume Mistwalker: We aren't tinkering, we're having to meet the current needs
[13:32] Pip Torok: when that happens, decisions are made "on the fly" often very bad ones
[13:32] Lilith Ivory: didn´t you say the past does not matter anymore ?
[13:33] Mikelo Serevi: Of course, if the factions bill is repealed, this will all be moot anyway
[13:33] Pip Torok: "if if's and and's were pots and pans ...."
[13:33] Mikelo Serevi: yes
[13:34] Lilith Ivory is going to fight like a lioness for keeping the faction bill ;_)
[13:34] Guillaume Mistwalker: Let'snot get ahea of ouselves...
[13:34] Mikelo Serevi: well, we could change the law to say the Chancellor, although it was worded to include any elected person
[13:35] Lilith Ivory: we should change the words
[13:35] Pip Torok: meanwhile, Ladies and Gentlemen we still have Term Limits to talk about .. or have we finished?
[13:35] Mikelo Serevi: so it would be out of date if a new office were created or brought on as an elected position
[13:35] Mikelo Serevi: that is, if we specified only the chancellor
[13:36] Lilith Ivory: if a new office would be created we would have to decide about election rules anyway
[13:36] Mikelo Serevi: yes, true
[13:36] Guillaume Mistwalker: I propose we amend CDSL 13-07 to read "No elected office of the Executive branch in the CDS Government can be held by the same citizen more than two terms in succession
Anything over 13 weeks, or half a term, constitutes a term for purposes of the term limits la"
[13:36] Pip Torok: exactly ... and we havent even defined this "new office"
[13:37] Mikelo Serevi: true pip, just thinking ahead
[13:37] Guillaume Mistwalker: ...Adding a W to the end of "law" too ㋡
[13:37] Lilith Ivory: and motion and second to Guis proposal?
[13:37] Mikelo Serevi: hmm, interesting
[13:38] Mikelo Serevi: I might be on board with this
[13:38] Guillaume Mistwalker: Well, if you are, can you second please?
[13:38] Guillaume Mistwalker: ㋡
[13:38] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hehe
[13:38] Mikelo Serevi: I was waiting for Pip to chime in
[13:38] Guillaume Mistwalker: Ah, yes
[13:38] Lilith Ivory wonders wether Ms LRA can second herself lol
[13:39] Guillaume Mistwalker: I think you can
[13:39] Pip Torok: only with a very small drafting amendment: substitute "same citizen FOR more" ... etc
[13:39] Lilith Ivory: sounds good to me
[13:40] Guillaume Mistwalker: I propose we amend CDSL 13-07 to read "No elected office of the Executive branch in the CDS Government can be held by the same citizen for more than two terms in succession
Anything over 13 weeks, or half a term, constitutes a term for purposes of the term limits law"
[13:40] Mikelo Serevi: so with a 'w' and for
[13:40] Mikelo Serevi: second
[13:40] Lilith Ivory: all in favour for this proposal say aye please
[13:40] Guillaume Mistwalker: Aye
[13:41] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[13:41] Pip Torok: well if this passes then I wonder how long we the RA will continue ...
[13:41] Pip Torok: nay
[13:41] Lilith Ivory: aye
[13:41] Lilith Ivory: again we have to wait for 7 day votes
[13:41] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[13:41] Lilith Ivory: and I don´t see why you are concerned about the RA Pip
[13:42] Guillaume Mistwalker: Now, for the moment we've all been waiting for...!
[13:42] Pip Torok: (sorry for not seeing that voting had already started, madame LRA)
[13:42] Lilith Ivory: only a few minutes left
[13:42] Sonja Strom: Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyy!!!
[13:42] Lilith Ivory: unfortunately I have to leave in time today
[13:42] Guillaume Mistwalker: Shall we table the amendment?
[13:42] Mikelo Serevi: 15 min
[13:42] Mikelo Serevi: could we meet next week?
[13:43] Lilith Ivory: we can do that
[13:43] Lilith Ivory: hopefully with Cindy and Gwyn lol
[13:43] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes, I think that the amendment... will be a heavy discussion
[13:43] Lilith Ivory: I think so also
[13:43] Mikelo Serevi: I think the 30 min scheduled was optimistic anyway
[13:43] Lilith Ivory: sure we won´t make it in 15 minutes
[13:43] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hehe
[13:43] Pip Torok: well we certainly need their vote and input imo
[13:43] Guillaume Mistwalker: Yes
[13:43] Mikelo Serevi: or if we did, we wouldn't be doing our jobs
[13:44] Lilith Ivory: I agree with you on that Pip
[13:44] Lilith Ivory: right Mik
[13:44] Guillaume Mistwalker: Member concerns?
[13:44] Lilith Ivory: Announcements?
[13:45] Guillaume Mistwalker: None here
[13:45] Pip Torok: nor from here
[13:45] Lilith Ivory: some fun story to tell??
[13:45] Lilith Ivory: hehe
[13:45] Guillaume Mistwalker laughs
[13:45] Mikelo Serevi: we are the story in this place
[13:45] Guillaume Mistwalker: Good answer, Mik...!
[13:45] Lilith Ivory smiles
[13:45] Mikelo Serevi: often funny
[13:45] Lilith Ivory: was a quite entertaining meeting today
[13:46] Pip Torok: "A funny thing happened to me on my way to the Forum" ...
[13:46] Sonja Strom: "There was once a man whose son's asked him to tell them a story."
[13:46] Mikelo Serevi: lol
[13:46] Guillaume Mistwalker: Haha
[13:46] Lilith Ivory: welcome Aurel
[13:46] Guillaume Mistwalker: Move to adjourn, Mme LRA?
[13:46] Sonja Strom: "So, he said, 'There was once a man whose son's asked him to tell them a story."
[13:46] Pip Torok: secoded
[13:46] Lilith Ivory: yes
[13:46] Pip Torok: seconded
[13:46] Guillaume Mistwalker: Hello, Aurel!
[13:47] Lilith Ivory: anybody in favour say aye please
[13:47] Guillaume Mistwalker: And Poof...
[13:47] Pip Torok: aye
[13:47] Guillaume Mistwalker: Aye
[13:47] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[13:47] Lilith Ivory: aye
[13:47] Lilith Ivory: first time we think alike today hehe
[13:47] Guillaume Mistwalker: Haha
[13:47] Lilith Ivory smiles
[13:47] Sonja Strom: ♫~~♫~~APPLAUSE~~♫~~♫
[13:47] Mikelo Serevi: I don't know, this has been a pretty good RA overall